R.I.P. Warlocks

[Nekudotayim]

Hello,

I would like to start this discussion about warlocks because I believe, something needs to be done. As someone else already mentioned, warlocks have gone down from postion 1 to 6 of the most powerful classes of this game. People are leaving their warlocks behind because they do not want to play a class, which is that weak. Warlocks are not weak, the other classes are too powerful.
Of course this is a multiplayer game and you should not walk alone through the warzone as a warlock but however at least a warlock should be able to defend himself against other classes in PvP matches on a well balanced way.
I always liked to avoid such threads like this one because I believed that there is always a way for a warlock to win a PvP. However, some events made me thinking about the whole thing.

English is not my mother tongue so please excuse me, if my descriptions will be a bit bad.

Marksman

Just cast "Son of the wind", then cast "Death sentence" on the warlock and kill him with autohits. It is that easy. No challenge and most times there is no way, the warlock will survive this. "Wind wall" and "Energy barrier" won't help the warlock to survive this in most cases. You must be very lucky, if "Soulkeeper" and "Vampirism" will hit the marksman through his "Son of the wind". You also can wait until "Son of the wind" disappears but chances are, that you won't survive until then.

Barbarian

Cast "Raving madness" and some buffs, run to the warlock, knock him down and do one until three of your powerful attacks. Job finished. Almost no challenge and again, the warlock have to be very lucky to survive this and to do some attacks. Of course the warlock can win such a fight, but in most cases he won't.
A Barbarian has 3500+ Hitpoints. The normal damage a barbarian will cause on the warlock is as high as the damage the warlock will cause on the barbarian with his spells. Those spells need mana and longer casting time.

Knight

Many knights almost have 5000+ Hitpoints. Add their good defensive buffs and blocking chance and now try to take them down with 2750+ Mana. ("Energy bond(5)" included - if you got points for that) Notice something? "Infuriate" will not really be helpful and "Elemental exposure" as well. Often this will be just a slow death.

Hunter

Surprise! "Ambush", "Confusion" and "Stunning fist" are doing a great job. The pet will cause a lot of damage. If the warlock is able to manage this situation and maybe to kill your pet, just run through or around the warlock to interrupt his spells, the warlock likes to cast on you. It should be easy for the hunter and in most cases, you will win as a hunter and if not, you still could be able to get away.

---

So, I hope I could give you some good examples, why people like to leave their warlocks behind. I don't really like to do that because I always liked to play such types of classes but if I am not able to win such battles no matter how smart I act and how hard I try, it is just going to be depressing. Anyway, what I like to show you, is that there are non-challenging ways to defeat a "normal" enemy. Something like this should not be possible and again, I am not talking about how weak warlocks are, I am talking about how strong some classes are. So what could get changed to give a warlock a chance to win such fights on a well balanced way?

Marksman - Maybe reduce the power of "Death sentence"?
Barbarian - Maybe reduce the chance of resistance of "Raving madness" on skill-level 1? (currently 90% chance to resist freeze, knock downs, dizziness etc. on each skill-level) Isn't that a bit Imba?
Knights - Maybe make "Infuriate" and/or "Elemental exposure" a bit stronger? I do not really see a difference when using these spells on enemies.
Hunter - Maybe do not interrupt magic attacks when the enemy runs through or around the caster? I mean.. it's magic. :-)

Of course the warlock has some powerful spells as well like MOD and Terror but in such situations, they wont be helpful.

So these are my 2 cents about it. What do you think?


kind regards,
Anu

[Skjringsaal]

For the next update, we are wainting improves in balance, included marksmen and warlocks. I hope it's true, and that this update comes soon.

[makarios68]

I agree with much of the original post.

I have an up and coming warlock, but am rather worried about how easy he will be to kill in the WZ.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by christiansema3

For the next update, we are wainting improves in balance, included marksmen and warlocks. I hope it's true, and that this update comes soon.

I hope this doesn't mean they are improving marksmen. They are strong enough!

Originally Posted by makarios68

I agree with much of the original post.
I have an up and coming warlock, but am rather worried about how easy he will be to kill in the WZ.

Like this : screenshot 2008-11-27 01_29_59.jpg

Archers who need sotw/ds combo to kill a lock are gay A high level burst of wind and here you go if the warlock rush you too close.

I hope this doesn't mean they are improving marksmen. They are strong enough!

Don't worry, i feel like strategic position will be nerfed, same with the evasion tree and the cooldown of ethereal arrow/ignus scorch.

[Inkster]

A very good post and for the most part i tend to agree with what you said about the warlock.

However, if the warlock plays smart, for an example using his surroundings to his best advantage, he can survive a lot of the situations if not outnumbered.
(this is why a warlock should really play in a group especially now) Add the fact that the warlock and conjorer unless he or she is lucky enough to have a barbarian near by to cast onslaught is the slowest class in the game and has no movement speed spells. (marks have mobility + SoTW knights have spring)

That said yes it is a lot harder to play the warlock nowadays but i personally like the challenge of playing the class as it is now, Although it can be as frustrating as hell a lot of the time.

[El_Naso]

Oh golly this is gonna be a long answer.

First thing, and although I´m sure the whole comunity plus me agrees with what you are saying, balance is aimed towards relam vs relam rather than pvp. How would a support conjurer handle such situations? would he die because his configuration is weak? no, a full support conjurer is one of the most powerfoul classes in the game, you cannot sustain a battle without them.

Now, on the other hand and despite all that about rvr and pvp, the situation IS BAD. A warlock should be able to somwhat defend aganist a sow dependant marksman at least (the other situations can be handled but it´s trycky). Knight´s case is different though, since the blocks are very random, one day you may block everything and eat bricks the next.

Now I´m sure you must have tried all the things I´m going to suggest you to use, but I will list them anyway:

Fist, use mental, a whole damn lot of it. Have the mastery at lvl 17 and get a fell of every power, they are some of the best control spells aviable. Mental push is specially useful at any lvl, and at 5 it´s cooldown equals it´s duration. It can nail a warrior to the ground and render him useless, and it bypasses unstoppable madness, just like insect plague. Splinter wall may look like a weak and useless spell, especially for a high damaging warlock, but it gets through sow. Time master is probably one of the best, allows to freeze anything arround you for a full 15 seconds, including those annoying people that like to cancel your spells. This spell doesen´t let you attack your target, but it allows you to recharge, reposition and retaliate. Silence and will domain are obvious, real livesavers even at lvl 1, and a pain for your enemy at lvl 5. Do not be fooled, this is not just a mage mastery, it´s one of your main masteries, containing the core of your control spells.

Phew. Now a few random other spells: laziness cuts your enemies damage bonus in half, that means you weaken every buff your enemy has and (I asume) also the damage bonus in some skills like lethal attack and south cross (but I didn´t have the chance to test it and nobody uses it, to boot. In theory, it´s an awesome spell). Mod. Use it damnit, some locks claim it´s overpowered in pvp since it leaves your enemy with just normal hits. Pfft, I say use it, makes up for sow, unstoppable madness, south cross, confuse and every other "ups I´m dead" spell. Sadictic servants will slowly drain mana and add it to your pool, combined with mana borrow and mana burn, you can drain anybody dry in no time. Corrupt blood, soulkeeper and summon lightning can be difficult to fit together in any setup, but together they render any warrior useless. Freeze, just like time master, gains you time... Can´t think of anything else.

Now all these spells are neat but here´s what I think is the problem: block and evasion. What are all these spells worth if you can´t even land one? You can´t rely on any spell these days because the chance of it getting evaded / resisted / blocked is outrageously high. I think that the change must be done to the warlock, make his concentration influence the spell focus a hell lot more. Make it so that they can get 1 out of 4 spells trough sow for example, so that they can realy rely on them. It´s nothing too hard I guess, just changing a little number.

[Nightchill]

Originally Posted by Nekudotayim

(...)

So these are my 2 cents about it. What do you think?


kind regards,
Anu

i think you're wrong on the most part. only classes lock can't beat (unless some mad fortune shining upon him) on a regular basis are knights & marksman. other's are easy picking, just skill up properly and you'll have no problems, especially vs barbs.

-NC

[Ulmanyar]

Originally Posted by El_Naso

Now all these spells are neat but here´s what I think is the problem: block and evasion. What are all these spells worth if you can´t even land one? You can´t rely on any spell these days because the chance of it getting evaded / resisted / blocked is outrageously high. I think that the change must be done to the warlock, make his concentration influence the spell focus a hell lot more. Make it so that they can get 1 out of 4 spells trough sow for example, so that they can realy rely on them. It´s nothing too hard I guess, just changing a little number.

Yes, I pretty much think you have found one of the main issues with warlocks at the moment. The big problem is not that we are totally defenseless, but rather that lots our defenses are pretty much useless with the current state of evades/resists/blocks. When you have a fight with a warrior (especially knights) and will domain, ivy, beetle swarm and all other stop-that-high-hitting-maniac-spells gets evaded/blocked/resisted you are pretty much toast. And since you now, after those spells, are a bit low on mana you cast energy borrow, which is evaded.

The reliability is a really important factor when playing a warlock - you often only have one or a few shot(s) to survive a situation (running is, obviously, not an option), and if you fail that one chance it's over and back to save.

Another problem that makes playing the warlock a bit hard/challenging/frustrating is the casting time. Yes, arcane devotion really helps but you can't keep it running constantly (especially not in a close fight where mana conservation is of great importance). Perhaps one solution would be a passive casting time boost instead/also? Or perhaps just lower casting time of some/all/certain spells. I'm not sure what's the best solution, but this is just a thought.

Another way of approaching this issue is by saying: it's not actually the casting time itself that's the problem, but rather the cancellation of spells. If mind push gets evaded (yes, that might be this infamous "one shot") and an archer gets too close, the fight is soon over. Whatever spell you want to cast (even the "fast" ones with 1.5s casting time) gets canceled, if the archer plays well.

But removing the cancellation totally I don't think would be a good idea, since it's an important and interesting part of the fight. So at the moment I think adjusting casting times is a better idea.

Yes, I know, there are spells that could help me out of some of those situations, but sometimes it's just not possible to fit in 4 or more mind controlling spells in a setup - and with the current reliability of those spells you really need a lot of them!


Don't get me wrong, I love playing the warlock and I really don't want it to be overpowered (something that is easily done with only a few changes). Also, it's is not my intention to whine a lot about it - but sometimes it's just feels like it would have been a lot more fun and interesting if your survival really could depend on your own judgment and knowledge about your skills, instead of instantly dying because you can't rely upon vital skills (such as mind push and vamp).


A thought just hit me: perhaps the warlock could have a spell that reduces the amount of damage taken? Pretty expensive, pretty high up in Mana control and with fairly long cooldown. But, as I said, it's just a thought and I have yet not considered the impact such a spell would have..


EDIT: To clarify: I don't want all of my suggestions above to become reality, I was just trying to illustrate some different aspects of the situation. The above is just how I currently look at it, and should be treated as such (that is: it's my opinion and it can, of course, change provided relevant arguments and aspects of the matter).

Also, I think opt1k is right, in some ways. Warlocks can beat most other classes with the right setup, but only if you land your spells. As I said: I don't want to be able to kill everyone with every setup, but I think some changes could be made to make the fighting more fun and interesting (yes, that's the keywords).

[_dracus_]

Originally Posted by Nekudotayim

(...)
Barbarian

Cast "Raving madness" and some buffs, run to the warlock, knock him down and do one until three of your powerful attacks. Job finished. Almost no challenge and again, the warlock have to be very lucky to survive this and to do some attacks. Of course the warlock can win such a fight, but in most cases he won't.
A Barbarian has 3500+ Hitpoints. The normal damage a barbarian will cause on the warlock is as high as the damage the warlock will cause on the barbarian with his spells. Those spells need mana and longer casting time.
(...)
Barbarian - Maybe reduce the chance of resistance of "Raving madness" on skill-level 1? (currently 90% chance to resist freeze, knock downs, dizziness etc. on each skill-level) Isn't that a bit Imba?
(...)

I agree with you on the general lines I just want to pin point one thing that isn't exact. Unstoppable madness at level 1 isn't 90 resist to everything. It's 70% (+5% per level and duration increase) then and it doesn't prevent from beetle swarm or mind push. However I agree that 70% on level 1 is a bit too much. I'd see something like 50%, 60%, 70%, 80% , 90% depending on level could be good.

Second point barbarian normal hits too get quite hight are done with very slow weapon which I believe to be around or close to 4s between each hit. So if you do the math it's not THAT unballenced compared to warlock spells (that also have range).

That was just minor corrections I think. However your point is quite true Warlock are TOO weak right now. I also have the feeling that for this reason lots of warlocks have stop playing. It's sometimes hard to find a warlock to cast a terror to begin an area sequence... I think this is one of the best proof that something needs to be done for warlock.


PS: Is that me or skills get more and more cancel thoses days ? A mob farts and poof skill canceled (with no trace on log off course!)

[Mikan]

NGD has said that balance is here. So we will wait and see.

Regards,