"Foul play"

UmarilsStillHere · 01-12-2009, 07:05 PM

(Im going to try and avoide useing my option at all in this first post, please at least read the "do not" section before posting.)

I have started this thread so that the entire community can try and decide
what should and what shouldent be considered "foul play"

The main focus of this thread I would like to be the multiaccounting Rule, which has very rarely being enforced, Technicaly your not allowed to have more than one account for any reason, yet meany people do, myself included.

Should "spying" be ban worthy? Createing a new char and useing it to watch other realm chats, should this be allowed? I have seen People from other realms leave level one accounts at CS to spy on General chat there as well, And I have heard of people from syrtis useing similar tactics...

Entering another realm chat to spam/shout at said realm, Should this be worthy of punishment?

NGD has a databse of all player chars, so Im sure that if a char is accused of "foul play" they can find the account, and IP ban it (banning the players main too in most cases) Should this be done in some cases? (three strike system would apply)

If you have any other examples you would like to talk about, feel free, and for this thread DO NOT Name any player/realm/clan in perticular, I dont want this to become a fight thread this is hopefully somewere we can disscuss this without turning Troll,

If NGD reads this I ask that any post "pointing the finger" as it were to be removed.

Nightchill · 01-13-2009, 01:59 AM

lol, 1st, if ngd bans all with multi acc then I'm afraid no one will be left to play this game.
2nd, I have several accounts, one of them is actively played, lvl 35 as of today. should I get banned for that?

Syd_Vicious · 01-13-2009, 06:26 AM

210paul,

You are asking basically what ethical guidelines should be followed in order to preserve the community, the game, the invasion system, wit the pursuit of fun and respect for all players. Does that sound about right?

Ok here is a list of what would hurt the above:

1. A IP block/ban would dramatically hurt the ability of this game to appeal to families, colleges, and other vocational schooling where a Network Addressed Translation router is in play. In computer networking, network address translation (NAT) is the process of modifying network address information in datagram packet headers while in transit across a traffic routing device for the purpose of remapping a given address space into another (_wiki_). Meaning the router keeps the one IP address you get from your provider and provides private addresses to your internal network - NGD sees the IP from the NAT router not your private one for your computer. These routers are used by just about every family with a broadband router connect via DSL, ADSL, or Cable Modem. I have even used NAT routers while interfaced with satellite communication equipment. What this means is if you block the router IP address you will prevent all players in the family from being able to play regardless of who did what. So losing one bad person you might lose 3 to 4 others or a whole dormitory of possible players depending on network topology and configuration.

2. If we are to determine what is wrong under what philosophical principle with these rights and wrongs be maintained by? Basically there are several ethical systems out there Utilitarianism (we do whats right for the greater good), Epicureanism (some pleasures and indulgences to be detrimental to human beings), or even Kantianism (revolving entirely around duty rather than emotional feelings or end goals), etc... Which one must we up hold? Someone who is spying may feel they are performing a duty to their realm in the Kantian sense. Same could be said for save camping, it is the duty of the other realm to wipe opposing realms off the war zone map. Things that we could say are immoral, but are not completely wrong. So how should this be categorized? I have seen many times on these threads that everyone has their own adopted view of what is right and wrong and the only thing we can agree to is to disagree.

If we could all agree on what is right, as difficultly outlined in number 2, this could go a lot faster.

Angel_de_Combate · 01-13-2009, 12:57 PM

When people make these accounts in other realms, (well from what ive seen) its purely to organise pvp's, say job well done etc. As were all in different realms, this is the only way we can communicate to each other(unless you have IRC). I mean on Amun aint it cool that there is a global chat ???? Yes i know that NGD would never go for that on the actual playable servers, which is a shame really. Look at the end of the day,why are all of a sudden getting so caught up on punishing people for deeds, that to be fair, do actually go on in real life war (im talking about spying here, checking on the whereabouts of the enemy). I mean how exactly will NGD know a spying account from just a average joe..lvl 35 one ?? Christ almighty...even in life..some people have unfair advantages and some people have conscious's.

UmarilsStillHere · 01-13-2009, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by opt1k

lol, 1st, if ngd bans all with multi acc then I'm afraid no one will be left to play this game.
2nd, I have several accounts, one of them is actively played, lvl 35 as of today. should I get banned for that?

Since im past the first post, personaly Id say no. But I know others who would say yes...

The point of this thread is as said, for the community to try and agree on some sort of "moral limit" on the bending of the multiaccount rule, that we have been bending for ages.

Personaly Im very dissapointed in Ignis for paprking a spy at Cs, And im Equaly dissapointed with Syrtis for makeing an Ignis account to try and steal the als gem from Ignis...

Syd_Vicious · 01-13-2009, 10:19 PM

I love the fact that someone was considering me pompous with my above post.

Post 1 only shown that it is impractical to place bans on IPs and would further impact the amount of players we have now. Post 2 outlined that everyone has there own code they follow so getting anyone to agree on whats right and wrong is going to be worse than pulling teeth. Using the three examples of different ethics system was aimed at showing that. "Moral Limits" are completely based upon core and cultural values that differ with everyone.

To be more on topic though I don't think anything should change in regards to banning spies and that would inevitably cause change - players would watch what they say and think more like they are at war with another realm rather than the la dee da attitude. Spies have always been the bane of most countries both allied and at war. If people wont support banning someone for spawn camping noobs in the inner realms (that can cause increased attrition rates among new players, ruining the game for them when hunters camo inside a town finding a safe spot to hit noobs all day) then why would people ban a spy who is going to help his realm put up a better fight? Spies are only as effective as the lack of security around them.

Plus there is the burden of proof when you accuse someone, and the only way you can know who was spying on who (besides them out right telling you on IRC or someone from their realm provides a screen shot of the guilty party saying it) is that you are spying yourself. Plus say someone does get banned, but they are on a DHCP setup. The next day or hour their IP address changes and they are back in (provided NGD doesn't also have a way to block the router's MAC address. Or they switch their tactics a little and throw you off with having a different character every time.

I can understand your frustration with this, but I think having a witch hunt for spies will just make spies change their tactics and not really solve anything. Oh and most players when they see someone spamming just automatically hit the /ignore command so its not really a big deal.

Froste · 01-13-2009, 11:32 PM

Placing a carte blanche ban on ip ranges would obviously cause more grief than good. But I would assume bans are never meted out so callously, and are investigated on a case by case basis. This way it's fairly easy to see whether a certain ip logs into one realm mostly, and if that ip then logs into a different realm, where the characters are static lowlevels, that would be a fairly good indication.

Personally I think all characters that haven't reached level 10 in one month should be wiped.

If people have to work for their spy characters, there'd be a lot less, and the previous rule would still apply, if the character remains static forever more after hitting level 10, and that same ip logs onto syrtis, you could just shadow that character, see if it logs in during critical times etc, if the same ip is then connected to an active player in another realm and the spy character remains inactive, just listening, it would be fairly obvious.

There are certainly ways to combat spies. I think those who do make spy accounts are pretty sad individuals. It ruins the game for many when some assholes commit such acts.

Kninja · 01-14-2009, 03:32 AM

1. Most Multiple Acc aren't sabotage.
I haven't yet seen anyone spamming the realm chat.
Also there's fairly good reasons for people to make multi acc.
A. People want to see what different realms are like.

B. People are trying to figure out if it's harder to lvl in certain realms.

C. Alsius
I had a level 25 Knight in Alsius (horus). I was stuck with hours of grinding...
In addition, Alsius was/is losing the war really badly. I gave up on Alsius.

And made a Marksman in Syrtis (which is WAY easier to lvl in).

Seriously, if you want to kill spies than just make a level requirement for the realm chat.

Torin_Ironfist · 01-14-2009, 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kninja

1. Most Multiple Acc aren't sabotage.
I haven't yet seen anyone spamming the realm chat.
Also there's fairly good reasons for people to make multi acc.
A. People want to see what different realms are like.

B. People are trying to figure out if it's harder to lvl in certain realms.

C. Alsius
I had a level 25 Knight in Alsius (horus). I was stuck with hours of grinding...
In addition, Alsius was/is losing the war really badly. I gave up on Alsius.

And made a Marksman in Syrtis (which is WAY easier to lvl in).

Seriously, if you want to kill spies than just make a level requirement for the realm chat.

I see your point but I don't think you can compare leveling a knight to leveling a marksman :P

On topic, enforcing the multiple account rule would kill the game in the sense that as stated before, many people have more than one. I myself do not think that spying is a valid banable offense because it is useless. Generally speaking plans are given in General chat and parties, not over the realm chat.

Kninja · 01-14-2009, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sbauer9113

I see your point but I don't think you can compare leveling a knight to leveling a marksman :P

I think I can considering I had to spend 90% of some levels grinding my Knight to just 17, whereas my marks has only spent AT MOST 2h max grinding to 17.

01-12-2009, 07:05 PM	#1
UmarilsStillHere Marquis Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: England Posts: 2,419	"Foul play" (Im going to try and avoide useing my option at all in this first post, please at least read the "do not" section before posting.) I have started this thread so that the entire community can try and decide what should and what shouldent be considered "foul play" The main focus of this thread I would like to be the multiaccounting Rule, which has very rarely being enforced, Technicaly your not allowed to have more than one account for any reason, yet meany people do, myself included. Should "spying" be ban worthy? Createing a new char and useing it to watch other realm chats, should this be allowed? I have seen People from other realms leave level one accounts at CS to spy on General chat there as well, And I have heard of people from syrtis useing similar tactics... Entering another realm chat to spam/shout at said realm, Should this be worthy of punishment? NGD has a databse of all player chars, so Im sure that if a char is accused of "foul play" they can find the account, and IP ban it (banning the players main too in most cases) Should this be done in some cases? (three strike system would apply) If you have any other examples you would like to talk about, feel free, and for this thread DO NOT Name any player/realm/clan in perticular, I dont want this to become a fight thread this is hopefully somewere we can disscuss this without turning Troll, If NGD reads this I ask that any post "pointing the finger" as it were to be removed. __________________ Faith 50 Barb Faithless 50 Lock Umaril 45 Conju Kailas 45 Marks Pel 45 Knight I N Q U I S I T I O N

01-13-2009, 11:32 PM	#7
Froste Baron Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Svea Rike Posts: 814	Placing a carte blanche ban on ip ranges would obviously cause more grief than good. But I would assume bans are never meted out so callously, and are investigated on a case by case basis. This way it's fairly easy to see whether a certain ip logs into one realm mostly, and if that ip then logs into a different realm, where the characters are static lowlevels, that would be a fairly good indication. Personally I think all characters that haven't reached level 10 in one month should be wiped. If people have to work for their spy characters, there'd be a lot less, and the previous rule would still apply, if the character remains static forever more after hitting level 10, and that same ip logs onto syrtis, you could just shadow that character, see if it logs in during critical times etc, if the same ip is then connected to an active player in another realm and the spy character remains inactive, just listening, it would be fairly obvious. There are certainly ways to combat spies. I think those who do make spy accounts are pretty sad individuals. It ruins the game for many when some assholes commit such acts. __________________ *Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines...*

01-14-2009, 03:32 AM	#8
Kninja Pledge Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 18	1. Most Multiple Acc aren't sabotage. I haven't yet seen anyone spamming the realm chat. Also there's fairly good reasons for people to make multi acc. A. People want to see what different realms are like. B. People are trying to figure out if it's harder to lvl in certain realms. C. Alsius I had a level 25 Knight in Alsius (horus). I was stuck with hours of grinding... In addition, Alsius was/is losing the war really badly. I gave up on Alsius. And made a Marksman in Syrtis (which is WAY easier to lvl in). Seriously, if you want to kill spies than just make a level requirement for the realm chat. __________________ Alsius(horus)The Underdogs.... We can't continue like this! Support us here:http://www.regnumonline.com.ar/forum...ad.php?t=35119

01-13-2009, 01:59 AM	#2
Nightchill Banned Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 433	lol, 1st, if ngd bans all with multi acc then I'm afraid no one will be left to play this game. 2nd, I have several accounts, one of them is actively played, lvl 35 as of today. should I get banned for that?

01-13-2009, 06:26 AM	#3
Syd_Vicious Initiate Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: The Desert, The Mountains, The Sky Posts: 152	210paul, You are asking basically what ethical guidelines should be followed in order to preserve the community, the game, the invasion system, wit the pursuit of fun and respect for all players. Does that sound about right? Ok here is a list of what would hurt the above: 1. A IP block/ban would dramatically hurt the ability of this game to appeal to families, colleges, and other vocational schooling where a Network Addressed Translation router is in play. In computer networking, network address translation (NAT) is the process of modifying network address information in datagram packet headers while in transit across a traffic routing device for the purpose of remapping a given address space into another (_wiki_). Meaning the router keeps the one IP address you get from your provider and provides private addresses to your internal network - NGD sees the IP from the NAT router not your private one for your computer. These routers are used by just about every family with a broadband router connect via DSL, ADSL, or Cable Modem. I have even used NAT routers while interfaced with satellite communication equipment. What this means is if you block the router IP address you will prevent all players in the family from being able to play regardless of who did what. So losing one bad person you might lose 3 to 4 others or a whole dormitory of possible players depending on network topology and configuration. 2. If we are to determine what is wrong under what philosophical principle with these rights and wrongs be maintained by? Basically there are several ethical systems out there Utilitarianism (we do whats right for the greater good), Epicureanism (some pleasures and indulgences to be detrimental to human beings), or even Kantianism (revolving entirely around duty rather than emotional feelings or end goals), etc... Which one must we up hold? Someone who is spying may feel they are performing a duty to their realm in the Kantian sense. Same could be said for save camping, it is the duty of the other realm to wipe opposing realms off the war zone map. Things that we could say are immoral, but are not completely wrong. So how should this be categorized? I have seen many times on these threads that everyone has their own adopted view of what is right and wrong and the only thing we can agree to is to disagree. If we could all agree on what is right, as difficultly outlined in number 2, this could go a lot faster.

01-13-2009, 12:57 PM	#4
Angel_de_Combate Banned Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 440	When people make these accounts in other realms, (well from what ive seen) its purely to organise pvp's, say job well done etc. As were all in different realms, this is the only way we can communicate to each other(unless you have IRC). I mean on Amun aint it cool that there is a global chat ???? Yes i know that NGD would never go for that on the actual playable servers, which is a shame really. Look at the end of the day,why are all of a sudden getting so caught up on punishing people for deeds, that to be fair, do actually go on in real life war (im talking about spying here, checking on the whereabouts of the enemy). I mean how exactly will NGD know a spying account from just a average joe..lvl 35 one ?? Christ almighty...even in life..some people have unfair advantages and some people have conscious's.

01-13-2009, 10:19 PM	#6
Syd_Vicious Initiate Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: The Desert, The Mountains, The Sky Posts: 152	I love the fact that someone was considering me pompous with my above post. Post 1 only shown that it is impractical to place bans on IPs and would further impact the amount of players we have now. Post 2 outlined that everyone has there own code they follow so getting anyone to agree on whats right and wrong is going to be worse than pulling teeth. Using the three examples of different ethics system was aimed at showing that. "Moral Limits" are completely based upon core and cultural values that differ with everyone. To be more on topic though I don't think anything should change in regards to banning spies and that would inevitably cause change - players would watch what they say and think more like they are at war with another realm rather than the la dee da attitude. Spies have always been the bane of most countries both allied and at war. If people wont support banning someone for spawn camping noobs in the inner realms (that can cause increased attrition rates among new players, ruining the game for them when hunters camo inside a town finding a safe spot to hit noobs all day) then why would people ban a spy who is going to help his realm put up a better fight? Spies are only as effective as the lack of security around them. Plus there is the burden of proof when you accuse someone, and the only way you can know who was spying on who (besides them out right telling you on IRC or someone from their realm provides a screen shot of the guilty party saying it) is that you are spying yourself. Plus say someone does get banned, but they are on a DHCP setup. The next day or hour their IP address changes and they are back in (provided NGD doesn't also have a way to block the router's MAC address. Or they switch their tactics a little and throw you off with having a different character every time. I can understand your frustration with this, but I think having a witch hunt for spies will just make spies change their tactics and not really solve anything. Oh and most players when they see someone spamming just automatically hit the /ignore command so its not really a big deal.