The purpose of the knight

DkySven · 07-03-2009, 10:26 AM

Hello people,

When seeing the latest change to protector I'm starting to wonder what exactly is the purpose of the knight class. The new version gives +300% protection, which gives the knight a great defense, but I seriously wonder if the -90% speed and -90% damage make the skill it really worth to use.

Speed is a key element in any aspect of Regnum, except gate bashing, which won't work with -90% damage. My concern is now that with the speed penalty it will be impossible for knights to be long enough in range of a target to actually debuff him, while enemies just will ignore him because he'll be hard to kill, but way to slow to do anything.

I know that it's the knight his job to tank damage realmmates would take otherwise, but with changes like this it only becomes more unattractive to attack knights. Very often I find myself not attacked until I'm the last one left of my army, all my defensive buffs were just wasted. Knights should be attractive to attack or people should be forced to attack him, otherwise he can't tank.

With the latest changes knights don't block that much anymore and also their auras will only reduce damage, which makes it harder to keep himself or the group save from crowd control spells and areas like for example Sultar's Terror. Because of the changes to Precise Block and Caution, more and more knights choose to only attack with Army of One on. With Protector they would also get a good protective buff, but like said before they can't do anything with it.

With these skill changes we can either "tank" (we won't take damage, jsut live long because we're not attacked) or disable opponents a bit with debuffs. There are knights with Slashing level 19, who manage to do 600-800 South Crosses(5), but I'm also not sure if that's the way to go for knights.

I would really want to know what NGD's plans for the knight class is.

-Edge- · 07-03-2009, 11:46 AM

I like how you note that NGD tries to make the knight into a tank with changes like these, but they fail because they are overdone with insane values that just make the knight totally ignored by the enemy.

Clearly the new Protector isn't to fight, or run away under, but its not going to tank anything either. I don't think either side would benefit through it,

Honestly there are tons of great suggestions to other knight spells that could have been done, but this is another Protector change. But what is the point of being a tank that no one attacks anyway. Obviously with shield changes they are trying to make knights the front of the army, but its not working.

DkySven · 07-03-2009, 11:49 AM

Just back from Amun, it seems protector is back in its old form.

B0rn0rTh3ss · 07-03-2009, 03:00 PM

Higher RP achieved by killing a knight?

Aries202 · 07-03-2009, 03:37 PM

I think NGD finds it difficult to make a knight the way its supposed to be, without screwing it up

Dupa_z_Zasady · 07-03-2009, 05:23 PM

I'd like to thank you for this post Dky, cause this is what i have in my mind myself. I'm really tired of seeing knights being more useless and useless. The best way would be make spell that makes knight "unpasable" for a moment but this and other good ideas, as Edge mentioned, were proposed many times and there is no sign of any to be implemented. Maybe NDG should turn all knights into a barbs and have peace of mind?

Signatus · 07-03-2009, 09:08 PM

The idea of the knight, as it was somewhat predicted by Night Twix after the Str nerf, will be of an armoured conjurer (not quoting him, my opinion on the issue but I do remember a couple of his posts about it), in the sense of having auras and self buffs to diminish dmg taken and never being able to cope with other roles but those.

This is not new (and 2 years from now, when NGD finally (!) finishes balancing, it will be past history), currently several other games depicts tanks as mid-dmg dealers, able to cast auras to improve allies defences, able to shield allies in order to redirect dmg (as an example, not every tank has them) and "fury", "vengeance", "hatred", etc dmg counters that boosts their attack for penalty on their HP regen and overall defence (as an example, but base mechanism it's this way: Guardians on AoC; The Chosen on WAR, etc).

Problem is, RO knights weren't initially build with that purpose (nor that skills), they were warriors with less attack abilities then barbs, but with a good defence. They would "tank" because they could be a threat (a fatal flaw in many other tank classes of many other games, they are threats only if *actually* targeted... and that slowly makes its move to RO), meaning, they would withdraw fire from their allies because they could cause havoc!

Slowly RO knights make their tortuous path to Oblivion (not the game ^^)... the current builds are the last remainder of that prime idea, a SC (5) is a bigger threat then all shields tree put together (I won't even talk about Vanguard, I have yet to know a knight that has found out when "rigorous preparation" is worth being cast, according to my most positive theories it would take a mass Tremor and a mass Challenge to even notice differences on RvR... for 10 seconds...).

Every knight has already understood 3 basic things: auras are useful when your allies are still (there are no enemies so everyone is afk on the forums waiting for some, archers on the balcony, pre-casting before area spam at doors/ sultar rush, door banging and knight with his back against it (!); the corollary is, auras aren't useful most of the times), if you don't piss your enemies they'll ignore you (aka have a decent dmg dealing skill and get on the "you have been defeated by" enemy logs, best way to assure you'll be targeted), areas are the only RvR skill you have (you won't target and bring down an enemy even if you have 4 AoO on you on a 50 players battle; knights need time, and there's no such thing on RvR).

So basically I'm playing on Horus! Playing at Ra with the knight it's an invitation for serious depressing results (unless you camp pn2) given the large player's numbers on wars, blocking nerfs, deflecting barrier nerf etc... at least on Horus, with less numbers, one can still have fun while rushing... until you piss off the 4 locks present and they gangbang you to death with chained control spells and a lovely cremation after!

Brother-brian · 07-04-2009, 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Edge-

I like how you note that NGD tries to make the knight into a tank with changes like these, but they fail because they are overdone with insane values that just make the knight totally ignored by the enemy.

Clearly the new Protector isn't to fight, or run away under, but its not going to tank anything either. I don't think either side would benefit through it,

Honestly there are tons of great suggestions to other knight spells that could have been done, but this is another Protector change. But what is the point of being a tank that no one attacks anyway. Obviously with shield changes they are trying to make knights the front of the army, but its not working.

I have tried Protector, and wondered why no one hit me. It seems the only purpose is to be able to walk into enemy infested area and say "Look at me! I'm surrounded by the enemy, and am not dead yet! WOOHOO!"... before cooldown and getting massacred. Attack should still be possible under Protector, maybe at reduced rate, not dmg though.

Dannboy · 07-04-2009, 01:43 AM

I think Precise Block is broken and I dont block a single hit anymore.

A Knight is a tin can that wont harm you, he just stands there waiting to get killed. He neither has the Damage, the speed or the Good computer not to lagg nor crash to kill anyone.

DkySven · 07-04-2009, 08:55 AM

The main problem in my opinion is that now no one wants to target knights and that our auras aren't very useful, which leaves us unable to tank.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dannboy

I think Precise Block is broken and I dont block a single hit anymore.

A Knight is a tin can that wont harm you, he just stands there waiting to get killed. He neither has the Damage, the speed or the Good computer not to lagg nor crash to kill anyone.

Now you need the Block passive in combination with Precise Block to block some hits, but if people putted equal effort in getting hit chance as knights put in getting block chance, knights won't block very much anymore(read: nothing).

07-03-2009, 10:26 AM	#1
DkySven Marquis Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,076	The purpose of the knight Hello people, When seeing the latest change to protector I'm starting to wonder what exactly is the purpose of the knight class. The new version gives +300% protection, which gives the knight a great defense, but I seriously wonder if the -90% speed and -90% damage make the skill it really worth to use. Speed is a key element in any aspect of Regnum, except gate bashing, which won't work with -90% damage. My concern is now that with the speed penalty it will be impossible for knights to be long enough in range of a target to actually debuff him, while enemies just will ignore him because he'll be hard to kill, but way to slow to do anything. I know that it's the knight his job to tank damage realmmates would take otherwise, but with changes like this it only becomes more unattractive to attack knights. Very often I find myself not attacked until I'm the last one left of my army, all my defensive buffs were just wasted. Knights should be attractive to attack or people should be forced to attack him, otherwise he can't tank. With the latest changes knights don't block that much anymore and also their auras will only reduce damage, which makes it harder to keep himself or the group save from crowd control spells and areas like for example Sultar's Terror. Because of the changes to Precise Block and Caution, more and more knights choose to only attack with Army of One on. With Protector they would also get a good protective buff, but like said before they can't do anything with it. With these skill changes we can either "tank" (we won't take damage, jsut live long because we're not attacked) or disable opponents a bit with debuffs. There are knights with Slashing level 19, who manage to do 600-800 South Crosses(5), but I'm also not sure if that's the way to go for knights. I would really want to know what NGD's plans for the knight class is. __________________ Dky Sven, level 54 knight (Ra) Valhalla Dky the Goat, level 35 conjurer(Ra) Dky Sven, level 51 knight(Horus) Something

07-03-2009, 11:49 AM	#3
DkySven Marquis Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,076	Just back from Amun, it seems protector is back in its old form. __________________ Dky Sven, level 54 knight (Ra) Valhalla Dky the Goat, level 35 conjurer(Ra) Dky Sven, level 51 knight(Horus) Something

07-03-2009, 09:08 PM	#7
Signatus Master Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Damn, I'm lost again!... but now I have a map, wiii! Posts: 389	The idea of the knight, as it was somewhat predicted by Night Twix after the Str nerf, will be of an armoured conjurer (not quoting him, my opinion on the issue but I do remember a couple of his posts about it), in the sense of having auras and self buffs to diminish dmg taken and never being able to cope with other roles but those. This is not new (and 2 years from now, when NGD finally (!) finishes balancing, it will be past history), currently several other games depicts tanks as mid-dmg dealers, able to cast auras to improve allies defences, able to shield allies in order to redirect dmg (as an example, not every tank has them) and "fury", "vengeance", "hatred", etc dmg counters that boosts their attack for penalty on their HP regen and overall defence (as an example, but base mechanism it's this way: Guardians on AoC; The Chosen on WAR, etc). Problem is, RO knights weren't initially build with that purpose (nor that skills), they were warriors with less attack abilities then barbs, but with a good defence. They would "tank" because they could be a threat (a fatal flaw in many other tank classes of many other games, they are threats only if actually targeted... and that slowly makes its move to RO), meaning, they would withdraw fire from their allies because they could cause havoc! Slowly RO knights make their tortuous path to Oblivion (not the game ^^)... the current builds are the last remainder of that prime idea, a SC (5) is a bigger threat then all shields tree put together (I won't even talk about Vanguard, I have yet to know a knight that has found out when "rigorous preparation" is worth being cast, according to my most positive theories it would take a mass Tremor and a mass Challenge to even notice differences on RvR... for 10 seconds...). Every knight has already understood 3 basic things: auras are useful when your allies are still (there are no enemies so everyone is afk on the forums waiting for some, archers on the balcony, pre-casting before area spam at doors/ sultar rush, door banging and knight with his back against it (!); the corollary is, auras aren't useful most of the times), if you don't piss your enemies they'll ignore you (aka have a decent dmg dealing skill and get on the "you have been defeated by" enemy logs, best way to assure you'll be targeted), areas are the only RvR skill you have (you won't target and bring down an enemy even if you have 4 AoO on you on a 50 players battle; knights need time, and there's no such thing on RvR). So basically I'm playing on Horus! Playing at Ra with the knight it's an invitation for serious depressing results (unless you camp pn2) given the large player's numbers on wars, blocking nerfs, deflecting barrier nerf etc... at least on Horus, with less numbers, one can still have fun while rushing... until you piss off the 4 locks present and they gangbang you to death with chained control spells and a lovely cremation after! __________________ The sound of the Gion Shōja bells echoes the impermanence of all things; the color of the sāla flowers reveals the truth that the prosperous must decline. The proud do not endure, they are like a dream on a spring night; the mighty fall at last, they are as dust before the wind. -- Chapter 1.1 of The Tale of Heike, Helen Craig McCullough's translation Last edited by Signatus; 07-04-2009 at 04:12 AM. Reason: I obviously meant "rigorous preparation" and not "strategic positioning"...

07-04-2009, 01:43 AM	#9
Dannboy Initiate Join Date: May 2008 Location: With DB on the top of Mount Doom were Sauron lives. Posts: 206	I think Precise Block is broken and I dont block a single hit anymore. A Knight is a tin can that wont harm you, he just stands there waiting to get killed. He neither has the Damage, the speed or the Good computer not to lagg nor crash to kill anyone. __________________ Dannboy, Horus Knight lv 50 Ignis After two years The Cake Is A Lie _But there's no sense crying over every mistake. We just keep on trying till we run out of cake.

07-03-2009, 11:46 AM	#2
-Edge- Banned Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Łódż, Poland Posts: 1,506	I like how you note that NGD tries to make the knight into a tank with changes like these, but they fail because they are overdone with insane values that just make the knight totally ignored by the enemy. Clearly the new Protector isn't to fight, or run away under, but its not going to tank anything either. I don't think either side would benefit through it, Honestly there are tons of great suggestions to other knight spells that could have been done, but this is another Protector change. But what is the point of being a tank that no one attacks anyway. Obviously with shield changes they are trying to make knights the front of the army, but its not working.

07-03-2009, 03:00 PM	#4
B0rn0rTh3ss Pledge Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 12	Higher RP achieved by killing a knight?

07-03-2009, 03:37 PM	#5
Aries202 Banned Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New York City Posts: 569	I think NGD finds it difficult to make a knight the way its supposed to be, without screwing it up

07-03-2009, 05:23 PM	#6
Dupa_z_Zasady Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Poland Posts: 489	I'd like to thank you for this post Dky, cause this is what i have in my mind myself. I'm really tired of seeing knights being more useless and useless. The best way would be make spell that makes knight "unpasable" for a moment but this and other good ideas, as Edge mentioned, were proposed many times and there is no sign of any to be implemented. Maybe NDG should turn all knights into a barbs and have peace of mind?