CC subsystem

Barya · 08-12-2010, 08:44 AM

I've played RO only spring-summer period, now i'm stopped till new balance. And write on forum only in one thread - this.

Game is designed very well. For example there is good try to make weapon branches zero resulting in mixed game (A countering B a little, B countering C, C countering A).

Additionally, range subsystem designed well. Ranged wars going in good scenarios. One side can attack, other step back, battle can go to full mix way.

But.

There is some of not complete parts too.

One bad decision is linear growth. It means all characters get a +1 to all stats per level. Initially at first levels till 20 barbarian can beat mage&archer. Warlock have not much powers, and archer have not enough buffs to damage and CC. But then... When 30 level reached, archer and mage unstoppable against barbarian even 1v1.

Because of linear growth warriors also have too little health. In no game archer can easy kill warrior 1vs1 (parity achieved by same movement speed for example - "hit-hit" bad for archer, chasing bad for warrior). In RO enough 6-8 archer's hits on warrior to kill. With new balance it is 10-12, but still not enough for even fight, all fights warrior-archer are going under wall - warrior can step back&hide, archer can not cast many strikes fast.

I consider 20 archers hits-to-death of warrior is minimal amount.

About CC. CC means player unable to do something. Kicked player can do nothing. But for what people are playing games? Sure, for ability to do something.

Debuffs and curses in games mainly going in same matter - they restrict some player movement and parameters. But in RO they have very little usage and mainly not considered as CC. Why?

Knock is most powerful CC, so why it is most frequent spell effect?
Sure, many conjurers and archers will say about stopping incoming warriors, but is death of warrior is not "stopping"? Ok, if game moves to longer fights, CC system need great remake.

Why rangers need so mega amount of CC? Why kick makes unable to do something? Lets remake kick. Kicked person have -90% to attack speed, move speed and cast speed, is it good enough for stopping incoming warrior wave? Yes. Now nobody can whine about "super mad incoming barb". And now barbarian will feel self not completely useless. And that is partial suggestion, i think whole game CC subsystem need resort.

Most hard CC effects as knock should not be most frequent. Less powerful immobilize effect easily can go in place instead of knock.
On first stages best is swap immobilize effect with knock down.
Knock should be with barbarians somewhere in 2h mastery, and with knights in somewhere specific places, and sure with locks and archers as part of great spells. Other effects should be changed to less powerful. Possible for stopping warrior, but not disable from game at all. People playing games not for being "knocked".

Increasing randomness of CC is not choice, that is game option. May be option for players to choose from "random" or "straight" CC.

With corresponding effects and powers, CC resistances need remake too. I believe that all CC resistances should be constitution depend, except only of "can not attack" may be, which should have percent of success 50-80 and no range. As in all medieval games, warriors should be like "stone", not just "5m-around-door area fighters".

I dont know how CC system should really exist, I dont know which way Regnum will choose.

I think this thread will be discussed not in terms "oh how i can not win barbarian without this mega-giga-knock" or "oh you want warriors going with extreme power, for what i grinded my poor little archer till L50", that is RvR, not 1v1 game.

CC is real evil.
Is this game named RO where players can do something or Archers&Mages where core thing is amount of CCs you got in row?

ice_zero_cool · 08-12-2010, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barya

Initially at first levels till 20 barbarian can beat mage&archer. Warlock have not much powers, and archer have not enough buffs to damage and CC. But then... When 30 level reached, archer and mage unstoppable against barbarian even 1v1.

then grind your barb till level 50 and make a setup which beats them. It's not impossible to beat them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barya

In no game archer can easy kill warrior 1vs1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barya

that is RvR, not 1v1 game.

you answered your own "question" with this.

Dome · 08-12-2010, 01:20 PM

Problem is, that you think in most situations warrior encounters an archer at maximum range (30) so warrior has to close in and thus archer has many opportunity to cast what she likes.

On the other hand an archer most likely encounter a warrior around fort doors, at range 20 or less.
When this happens barbs have the opportunity to cast whatever they like before archer could ambush resulting in a south cross lvl5 2124 dmg.

Im not saying warriors are easy to play. But I do say archers should be in an adventage when things go ranged. When warrior is in hit range he will be running around the archer anyway which will result in the quick death of the archer because archers cant turn and shoot.
(hunters excluded)
________
Philippine girl live

doppelapfel · 08-12-2010, 09:43 PM

Something should be done about knock downs. I did never get why the best cc spells have such a short cooldown (kick: 20, feint: 25, ambush: 30, will domain: 30), low mana costs (only kick, feint and ambush) and why warriors have two of them (not counting typhoon and rote). This is stupid, compare those spells with things like dist. shot, disable limb, ivy, beetle, what ever, add the ability to stack and you know why regnum is a knock spamming game. Imo will domain and ambush should have 60 seconds cd, kick should be moved to the first position in tactics (since its not effected by the attack cycle it can be useful on a low lvl, feint usually not) and feint could be removed by sth else then (passiv speed?). And knocks should not stack.

ncvr · 08-13-2010, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doppelapfel

Something should be done about knock downs. I did never get why the best cc spells have such a short cooldown (kick: 20, feint: 25, ambush: 30, will domain: 30), low mana costs (only kick, feint and ambush) and why warriors have two of them (not counting typhoon and rote). This is stupid, compare those spells with things like dist. shot, disable limb, ivy, beetle, what ever, add the ability to stack and you know why regnum is a knock spamming game. Imo will domain and ambush should have 60 seconds cd, kick should be moved to the first position in tactics (since its not effected by the attack cycle it can be useful on a low lvl, feint usually not) and feint could be removed by sth else then (passiv speed?). And knocks should not stack.

Tbh, the fact that those spells have such a short cooldown is part of the reason that they're so good.

But anyway...
No knock, on lvl 5, should have a duration over 6 seconds. Might not seem like much in 1v1, but it is a hell of a long time in RvR. In fact no CC in general should last over 10 seconds (other than slowdowns, of course).

Barya · 08-13-2010, 04:40 PM

Also, not only order of CC is unbalanced, but also resistance is huge unbalance. There is really feels no effect of constitution on knock/stun.

There is no meaning in DefStance and UM as barb resist buffs.
Knights have big problems with resists too. Not so easy to knock, but there is always immobilize/freeze.

And. Beetle-fisting is not fun. (may be those beetle-fisters are a real joke, but for jokes there is Amun server)
When you get beetle-fist just as a joke, it just annoying like stupid "huntsuckers".
It will not help my target survive, it even can not help defeat me.
Thats even not game feature at all, usable situations have very little chances.
But why i should loose time when i came to play not to stay with stupid "can not attack".
People just loosing fun time under stupid "can not attack".
Beetle-fisting should be fixed leaving this as good grind support (decrease BS cast time from 2s to 0.5s) but allowing them real use in war (increase time of spell, also remake its mechanics, make counterspell to this, change it may be to -90%AS, make it constitution depend chance, make warriors and archers same likely targets for it)

Vanziv · 08-13-2010, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barya

Knock is most powerful CC, so why it is most frequent spell effect?

Because it's the most powerful, duh!
But seriously, it is a little ridiculous how the most powerful CC effect is given so little mana cost and is available at such a low level.

Barya · 08-16-2010, 11:45 PM

The most powerful to less powerful CC list.
Power falls - cooldowns decrease, duration increase, manacost decrease.
===========================
$ - Knock (biggest manacost, biggest cd, lowest duration)
$% - Immob
$ - Stun/Freeze
& - Can not attack/offensive cast
* - Slow moving speed
* - Dizzy/Confuse
* - Slow AS/CS (lowest manacost, lowest cd, biggest duration)
------------------------------------
* - effect is always countered by DI.
& - counterable by separate buff (conju? knight?).
% - as part of "frequent" spells Feint-Ambush-WillDomain this is counterable by DI, but as part of some moderate spells is not.
$ - special buff increase resistance to (newUM for barbs, passive to knights?).
===============================

Last 3 effects as less powerful can be made counterable with DI (most common buff) in all cases. From ever source they came DI will cut them.

Knock&stun already affected by Const, so will be logical to make immobilize effect and cannot attack effect affectable by Const too - because they all powerful and warriors should be equal target for them as rangers.

Can not attack CC in this scheme is counterable by conjurers buff (Magical Barrier may be or Ethereal Mantle), and have a lot of use (now useless in war).

Frequent stopping spells (Feint, Ambush, Domain) operate with Immob.

Finally, most powerful "Knock" have its place in warrior weapon branch ultimates, ST, Rage of Earth and other great spells.

"Kick" in these scheme will be good spell. Only cd may be increased some, should be about of 40-60 sec?

With CC table like this ^^
1) Warriors need 3 buffs for full buffness (DI, AntiCannotAttack, UM/passive).
2) Warriors not deminished by noobs so easy with only DI on them.
Archers and warlocks firstly to see warrior dont know will "easy" CCs work or not because of DI so they decide which to use - hard ones (moderate with immobilize, powerful knock-stun), or easy ones. Ambush/Feint/Domain will be casted on target but without effect on divined.
3) Warriors with only DI/resists can be countered still by CannotAttack (more duration then Stun effects, 13s+ on 5lvl).

Altara · 08-17-2010, 01:45 AM

I have to disagree,
Ive only recently got my barb to 50 and its the most fun Ive had in RO.
Killing archers and mages is almost the easiest thing on a barb, I find other warriors hardest to kill. CC's and how they are now are fine.

At home I have a screen shot of a level 50 hunter getting atleast 5 100+ normals on me before I came back from being afk and still ended up winning the fight, maybe out of luck, but still.

From what I read, you arent level 38+
so my suggestions to you are:
1. Level up and try again.
2. Get good.

e30G · 08-17-2010, 02:38 AM

Actually all CCs except Freeze is counter-able provided you don't have Darkness cast on you.

I agree with Necrovarus though. CCs like Knock, Dizzy and Immobilize should be shorter in effect. Cannot Attack, Freeze, Stun and Slow are fine in my opinion.

08-12-2010, 08:44 AM	#1
Barya Apprentice Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 68	CC subsystem I've played RO only spring-summer period, now i'm stopped till new balance. And write on forum only in one thread - this. Game is designed very well. For example there is good try to make weapon branches zero resulting in mixed game (A countering B a little, B countering C, C countering A). Additionally, range subsystem designed well. Ranged wars going in good scenarios. One side can attack, other step back, battle can go to full mix way. But. There is some of not complete parts too. One bad decision is linear growth. It means all characters get a +1 to all stats per level. Initially at first levels till 20 barbarian can beat mage&archer. Warlock have not much powers, and archer have not enough buffs to damage and CC. But then... When 30 level reached, archer and mage unstoppable against barbarian even 1v1. Because of linear growth warriors also have too little health. In no game archer can easy kill warrior 1vs1 (parity achieved by same movement speed for example - "hit-hit" bad for archer, chasing bad for warrior). In RO enough 6-8 archer's hits on warrior to kill. With new balance it is 10-12, but still not enough for even fight, all fights warrior-archer are going under wall - warrior can step back&hide, archer can not cast many strikes fast. I consider 20 archers hits-to-death of warrior is minimal amount. About CC. CC means player unable to do something. Kicked player can do nothing. But for what people are playing games? Sure, for ability to do something. Debuffs and curses in games mainly going in same matter - they restrict some player movement and parameters. But in RO they have very little usage and mainly not considered as CC. Why? Knock is most powerful CC, so why it is most frequent spell effect? Sure, many conjurers and archers will say about stopping incoming warriors, but is death of warrior is not "stopping"? Ok, if game moves to longer fights, CC system need great remake. Why rangers need so mega amount of CC? Why kick makes unable to do something? Lets remake kick. Kicked person have -90% to attack speed, move speed and cast speed, is it good enough for stopping incoming warrior wave? Yes. Now nobody can whine about "super mad incoming barb". And now barbarian will feel self not completely useless. And that is partial suggestion, i think whole game CC subsystem need resort. Most hard CC effects as knock should not be most frequent. Less powerful immobilize effect easily can go in place instead of knock. On first stages best is swap immobilize effect with knock down. Knock should be with barbarians somewhere in 2h mastery, and with knights in somewhere specific places, and sure with locks and archers as part of great spells. Other effects should be changed to less powerful. Possible for stopping warrior, but not disable from game at all. People playing games not for being "knocked". Increasing randomness of CC is not choice, that is game option. May be option for players to choose from "random" or "straight" CC. With corresponding effects and powers, CC resistances need remake too. I believe that all CC resistances should be constitution depend, except only of "can not attack" may be, which should have percent of success 50-80 and no range. As in all medieval games, warriors should be like "stone", not just "5m-around-door area fighters". I dont know how CC system should really exist, I dont know which way Regnum will choose. I think this thread will be discussed not in terms "oh how i can not win barbarian without this mega-giga-knock" or "oh you want warriors going with extreme power, for what i grinded my poor little archer till L50", that is RvR, not 1v1 game. CC is real evil. Is this game named RO where players can do something or Archers&Mages where core thing is amount of CCs you got in row? Last edited by Barya; 08-16-2010 at 11:02 PM.

08-12-2010, 01:20 PM	#3
Dome Apprentice Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 90	Problem is, that you think in most situations warrior encounters an archer at maximum range (30) so warrior has to close in and thus archer has many opportunity to cast what she likes. On the other hand an archer most likely encounter a warrior around fort doors, at range 20 or less. When this happens barbs have the opportunity to cast whatever they like before archer could ambush resulting in a south cross lvl5 2124 dmg. Im not saying warriors are easy to play. But I do say archers should be in an adventage when things go ranged. When warrior is in hit range he will be running around the archer anyway which will result in the quick death of the archer because archers cant turn and shoot. (hunters excluded) ________ Philippine girl live Last edited by Dome; 04-13-2011 at 01:28 AM.

08-13-2010, 04:40 PM	#6
Barya Apprentice Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 68	Also, not only order of CC is unbalanced, but also resistance is huge unbalance. There is really feels no effect of constitution on knock/stun. There is no meaning in DefStance and UM as barb resist buffs. Knights have big problems with resists too. Not so easy to knock, but there is always immobilize/freeze. And. Beetle-fisting is not fun. (may be those beetle-fisters are a real joke, but for jokes there is Amun server) When you get beetle-fist just as a joke, it just annoying like stupid "huntsuckers". It will not help my target survive, it even can not help defeat me. Thats even not game feature at all, usable situations have very little chances. But why i should loose time when i came to play not to stay with stupid "can not attack". People just loosing fun time under stupid "can not attack". Beetle-fisting should be fixed leaving this as good grind support (decrease BS cast time from 2s to 0.5s) but allowing them real use in war (increase time of spell, also remake its mechanics, make counterspell to this, change it may be to -90%AS, make it constitution depend chance, make warriors and archers same likely targets for it) Last edited by Barya; 08-13-2010 at 08:21 PM.

08-16-2010, 11:45 PM	#8
Barya Apprentice Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 68	Example of CC effects table how it is can look like. The most powerful to less powerful CC list. Power falls - cooldowns decrease, duration increase, manacost decrease. =========================== $ - Knock (biggest manacost, biggest cd, lowest duration) $% - Immob $ - Stun/Freeze & - Can not attack/offensive cast * - Slow moving speed * - Dizzy/Confuse * - Slow AS/CS (lowest manacost, lowest cd, biggest duration) ------------------------------------ * - effect is always countered by DI. & - counterable by separate buff (conju? knight?). % - as part of "frequent" spells Feint-Ambush-WillDomain this is counterable by DI, but as part of some moderate spells is not. $ - special buff increase resistance to (newUM for barbs, passive to knights?). =============================== Last 3 effects as less powerful can be made counterable with DI (most common buff) in all cases. From ever source they came DI will cut them. Knock&stun already affected by Const, so will be logical to make immobilize effect and cannot attack effect affectable by Const too - because they all powerful and warriors should be equal target for them as rangers. Can not attack CC in this scheme is counterable by conjurers buff (Magical Barrier may be or Ethereal Mantle), and have a lot of use (now useless in war). Frequent stopping spells (Feint, Ambush, Domain) operate with Immob. Finally, most powerful "Knock" have its place in warrior weapon branch ultimates, ST, Rage of Earth and other great spells. "Kick" in these scheme will be good spell. Only cd may be increased some, should be about of 40-60 sec? With CC table like this ^^ 1) Warriors need 3 buffs for full buffness (DI, AntiCannotAttack, UM/passive). 2) Warriors not deminished by noobs so easy with only DI on them. Archers and warlocks firstly to see warrior dont know will "easy" CCs work or not because of DI so they decide which to use - hard ones (moderate with immobilize, powerful knock-stun), or easy ones. Ambush/Feint/Domain will be casted on target but without effect on divined. 3) Warriors with only DI/resists can be countered still by CannotAttack (more duration then Stun effects, 13s+ on 5lvl). Last edited by Barya; 08-17-2010 at 11:59 AM.

08-17-2010, 01:45 AM	#9
Altara Apprentice Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 79	I have to disagree, Ive only recently got my barb to 50 and its the most fun Ive had in RO. Killing archers and mages is almost the easiest thing on a barb, I find other warriors hardest to kill. CC's and how they are now are fine. At home I have a screen shot of a level 50 hunter getting atleast 5 100+ normals on me before I came back from being afk and still ended up winning the fight, maybe out of luck, but still. From what I read, you arent level 38+ so my suggestions to you are: 1. Level up and try again. 2. Get good. __________________ Adelle - Volari The shadows followed by the stars have turned to gold.

08-12-2010, 09:43 PM	#4
doppelapfel Baron Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 715	Something should be done about knock downs. I did never get why the best cc spells have such a short cooldown (kick: 20, feint: 25, ambush: 30, will domain: 30), low mana costs (only kick, feint and ambush) and why warriors have two of them (not counting typhoon and rote). This is stupid, compare those spells with things like dist. shot, disable limb, ivy, beetle, what ever, add the ability to stack and you know why regnum is a knock spamming game. Imo will domain and ambush should have 60 seconds cd, kick should be moved to the first position in tactics (since its not effected by the attack cycle it can be useful on a low lvl, feint usually not) and feint could be removed by sth else then (passiv speed?). And knocks should not stack.

08-17-2010, 02:38 AM	#10
e30G Count Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Philippines Posts: 1,244	Actually all CCs except Freeze is counter-able provided you don't have Darkness cast on you. I agree with Necrovarus though. CCs like Knock, Dizzy and Immobilize should be shorter in effect. Cannot Attack, Freeze, Stun and Slow are fine in my opinion. __________________ I N Q U I S I T I O N On Regnum Sabbatical