Defensive classes

[impp]

Hi guys I need some help with the balance update, I am going to try not to sound disgruntled (failed badly).

Below is a quote from the email we all received.

The Balance Update represents much clearer definition of the game’s playable classes, as offensive classes (Barbarians, Warlocks and Marksmen) will be able to inflict more damage, defensive classes (Knights, Conjurers and Hunters) now have more versatility, allowing users to customize their characters into a support setup or prepare them for a more offensive role.

Defensive classes:

Knights - yes with the protection auras but would still like to see more crowd control spells, although there is a fundamental flaw in that no knight is ever going to stand idly with the defensive classes and protect them. He/she will set up for offensive tank and get stuck in at RvR/PvP war. That's what all the knights I know do.

Conjurer - yes, in the healer setup which is the only truly defensive class in the game, but would like to see more protection areas.

Hunter - NO. All due respect NGD you still have not got it. What support spells does the hunter have? Stalker (lvl19!!!), tracks and reveal. What defensive spells that a marks does not have? Ermm, none. In fact marks has more protection spells. Tracking discipline has some good offensive spells - ensnaring and the damage bonus one and pets, I have not yet worked out how they are defensive.

I still can't work out how the hunter is more versatile, before the update I could at least put points in speed and not bother with a pet. Now what do I do? I tried to set up with ambush, stunning fist, distract but barbs just resist spells, knock you over and kill you with 4 normal hits.

I am not going to post any hunter spell suggestions for two reasons, i) there are thousands already posted by me and others in the suggestion thread; and ii) update 1.6.3 illustrates NGD has its own definition of "defensive" and I need to work out what this is before I could make any that they might even think about listening to.


So the help/advice I am seeking is an explanation of the defensive hunter class, what is the defensive setup and how do I "support" others?


Right I have reached my three posts per six months limit.

Cheers

Impp

[Minorian]

Well, the defensive or supportive classes dont necessarily have defensive skills. They have supportive skills that help their allies defense. Marksmen has no ally helping spells whatsoever, so it makes sense that they have both defense and offense. Hunters have what you listed along with DS, which warrior will love you for. Also, never underestimate how powerful an evasion scouting tricks setup can be. The combination of camo, speed, CC's, and the ability to get out of any situation is invaluable in a fort war. The knock that stops the barb from hitting your conj might just save the battle. Sudden strike can drastically increase the damage on an enemy knight, barb, or marksmen. All the spells in tricks can be incredible in war. Just because you arent an insane DPS machine with camo speed and a pet doesnt mean you arent helpful anymore.

Also, I like killing hunters. Dont give them more offense plz

[impp]

God, don't get me wrong. I don't want offensive spells, I want support/defensive spells.

I have just had a moan in the other topic in the balance thread. Jesus I am turning into a bitter old bugger.

Edit: Btw I have DS5, no one has thanked me yet.

Edit 2: I agree with your name, we do need more evasions.

[Seher]

Originally Posted by Need_More_Invasions

Hunters have what you listed along with DS, which warrior will love you for.

Rather useless in fort wars, imo; Casting some knocks is way more effective for teamplay with warriors, and when the warriors got to the target then everything is over, anyway, they usually don't need more damage, rather more time. (=>Knocks)
The only exception might be if the target is a knight.

Don't get me wrong, I like this spell, but saying "hunters are a support class" because of this single spell is stupid.
I mean, look at warlocks, how many spells like this one do they have? Would you consider warlocks a defensive or supportive class ? :P

Originally Posted by Need_More_Invasions

Also, never underestimate how powerful an evasion scouting tricks setup can be. The combination of camo, speed, CC's, and the ability to get out of any situation is invaluable in a fort war.

Camo is an offensive spell, that doesn't help my allies. Just stalker helps them.

Originally Posted by Need_More_Invasions

The knock that stops the barb from hitting your conj might just save the battle. Sudden strike can drastically increase the damage on an enemy knight, barb, or marksmen. All the spells in tricks can be incredible in war.

Yeah, those are really cool hunter-only spells.

Originally Posted by Need_More_Invasions

Just because you arent an insane DPS machine with camo speed and a pet doesnt mean you arent helpful anymore.

I still am an insane DPS machine, or at least I try to. (And I think I don't fail that badly at it )
Why? Because it's more useful than a so called "support setup". And there are still spare points for stalker in my setup.

+1 for this thread, by the way.

[ncvr]

Knights - the aim of shield wall is to support rushing warriors.

Conjus - actually I'd still say they're lacking in this regard, although they do have somewhat more versatile healing. They're all forced into one discipline setup though.

Hunters - while they're not unique abilities, tricks are good for CC and support. Don't give the "hunter-only spells" bullshit because marksmen don't use tricks setups in war as often as they use the arrow mastery setup, which has actually become a lot more viable with the mana regen changes and foresight change.

Originally Posted by Seher

I mean, look at warlocks, how many spells like this one do they have? Would you consider warlocks a defensive or supportive class ? :P

Stop looking at class balance in black and white. Warlocks are a highly versatile class with supportive capabilities.

[Lekarz]

Well, everytime when I see 'crying' of fixed hunters I have smile on my face. Every class you can play on your own. Hunter in camo isn't supportive for realm? Lol- infiltrate backs of zerg, kill conjus, does it not change ways of war? People remembers easy to play and rp non-fixed Hunter class and many of them CAN'T play their character. I realy thanks NGD for this update, really good job. ' Omg I'll delete Hunter ' (first posts after update) sounds childish?
Use your brain and discover way to play.

Greetings from weak-in-armour-strong-in-support conjurer =]
I apologyse for my words but thats reality, when child loses toy it's crying.

[impp]

Knights - Shield wall just doesn't do for me - only 10 seconds it's run out before you get there and that's if you don't get knocked or more likely frozen before you get there. I would like to see areas spells like MoD but with speed/attack speed debuff or reduced hit chance. I just use heroic presence instead.

Conjos - yeah full support is more powerful now, but I have seen one or two pretty menacing warjurers. Level 5 mana burn eats through everything - defensive stance has no effect. Lvl5 mana burn, lvl5 will domain, lvl5 beetle swarm, lvl5 prickling and start again with mana burn keeps a knight at bay.

Hunter - I've seen lots of marks using tricks - ambush lvl4 give marks lots of time to pound without using high mana shots, they use stunning fist, distracting shot and confuse too. Tricks is very much used by Marks.

I find the argument that a hunter camoing and confusing a conjo a support function a bit weak. It is as much a support role as a barb hitting the conjo with beast attack or kick. Any attack on the enemy is in support of the goal of winning the war. What I thought support meant was bestowing abilities/buffs/effects on allies that improve your chances in the fight. The best ones hunter has is stalker surroundings and tracking - maybe reveal? Pets has nothing.

I haven't called for nerfing, or deleting the hunter, I want more not less, the hunter needs more support abilities (although I wouldn't complain if confuse was nerfed slightly).

Greetings from a full support healer, petless hunter and frustratingly slow knight.

[Minorian]

Originally Posted by impp

Hunter - I've seen lots of marks using tricks - ambush lvl4 give marks lots of time to pound without using high mana shots, they use stunning fist, distracting shot and confuse too. Tricks is very much used by Marks.

I find the argument that a hunter camoing and confusing a conjo a support function a bit weak. It is as much a support role as a barb hitting the conjo with beast attack or kick. Any attack on the enemy is in support of the goal of winning the war. What I thought support meant was bestowing abilities/buffs/effects on allies that improve your chances in the fight. The best ones hunter has is stalker surroundings and tracking - maybe reveal? Pets has nothing.

frustratingly slow knight.

Marksmen that find themselves often hunting of PvPing, or highly targeted take tricks. Other ones are just trying to maximize damage in a fort war. But, a marksmen should always keep their range, so getting close enough to get off tricks is often suicidal. Hunters on the other hand can unload powerful trick combos and debuffs from camo, and get away safely again. Thats powerful.

And it is a support role to camo and take out or incapacitate the enemy conju, because no one else can do that out of camo and get away safely. Everyone else has to charge through an angry army thats going to do everything they can to stop you, and you wont get there. It may seem like an offensive role, but its more of a aggressive supportive role. Support doesnt always mean buffs. Support means CCing, nullifying enemies, protecting allies under attack, and then healing and buffs. Hunters are the king of CC in this game.

Oh, and I agree about the frustrating slow knight -.- ANYONE can run away from a knight.

[Seher]

Originally Posted by Necrovarus

Hunters - while they're not unique abilities, tricks are good for CC and support. Don't give the "hunter-only spells" bullshit because marksmen don't use tricks setups in war as often as they use the arrow mastery setup

The reason might be that arrow mastery seems better to them. As hunters they'd use it, too, if they were able to have it :P
Arrow mastery > tricks for most marksmen, at least according to you. Yeah, "bullshit".

Tricks are crap (according to you), that's why marksmen don't use it, and because marksmen don't use those bad spells, they're good for hunters ? Hunters have great spells for their own, because others have better spells? That's what you mean, right ? (At least that's what you've said)

Originally Posted by Necrovarus

Stop looking at class balance in black and white. Warlocks are a highly versatile class with supportive capabilities.

Warlocks can support, yes. Better than hunters, (even according to you?) and that's my point.

[ncvr]

Originally Posted by Seher

The reason might be that arrow mastery seems better to them. As hunters they'd use it, too, if they were able to have it :P
Arrow mastery > tricks for most marksmen, at least according to you. Yeah, "bullshit".

So because not as many of them use it, it's automatically bad?

Did you know that in late 2007/early 2008, SotW had a 15 second duration, near-immunity to both spells and normals, lower mana cost and cooldown and allowed offensive skills, and it was in its state for months before marksmen started using it?

Originally Posted by Seher

Warlocks can support, yes. Better than hunters, (even according to you?) and that's my point.

Not better, just in a different way. Warlocks don't have several skills hunters have, stalker/reveal being notable ones. I'm not going to pretend that hunter supportive versatility isnt a little lacking, but the incessant bitching about the tiniest details is what pisses people off, and pets weren't "versatility" in any way either, they were just a DPS switch. NGD did do a good job with the update, and they have clearly stated that the update is not finished yet. There will be a rebalance soon (and that's not soon(tm) soon, that's soon, as in, it'll actually happen).