balance Update 2011 Stage 1 - Summary

[chilko]

Please post the summary of the Stage 1 innitial discussion here.

Post# 2 should be the summary.
Post #3 and beyond should be comments of things that where ommited by mistake or whatever reason.
(I hope the one who helps making the summary will update post #2)

try to keep it as short as possible and add links to posts if needed

Proposed format:

Warriors

NGD Change 1: swap feint for intimidate
Oppinion 1: this change is ok.
Oppinion 2: intimidate for barbarians is too much because they are already one of the fastest classes (LINK)
....
Oppinion n:...

Community change 2: .........
IDEM

Etc.

thanks a lot for your help guys!

[Torcida]

Well Ill be the one who breaks the Ice... I dont really understand what you are asking from us XD

[Seher]

I think I know. A bit.

- means -, and + means + :P
....starts a line related to the previous one, an opinion about another player's opinion.

NGD changes:

Feint <-> Intimidate swap:
Brainless agrees: 10
+Barb with 2 knocks is too much.
-one reason less to use spears (feint range) (4)
-a slow still makes barbarians quite strong, especially combined with spring, or UM (7) ("a slow down spell for the fastest class")
....+barbarians won't use intimidate (2), points are better invested elsewhere, those 10% aren't enough to make this spell OP (No clear line here, everyone disagrees with everyone)
-spring + UM + kick = still too strong, kick needs a nerf as well
-all classes have the ability to kill others without taking much damage, so why not barbs?
-move kick instead of feint because kick is stronger (and ignores attack cycle), and to encourage barbarians to use spears (2)

Burst of wind blocked by DI:
Brainless agrees: 10
Two posts agree only if DI gets modified. They did not say how. 2 posts wants BoW to remain as is.
-DI (and confuse) become(s) more OP (4) (Another power to be blocked by them)
-needs more nerfs, 11 seconds dizzy + this range is too much, 3 posts asking for shorter dizzy duration
.....Another suggestion: more casting time for it, one reason BoW is imbalanced is the speed it can be cast at

Marksman mana regeneration change:
-Concerns about lack of mana (4)
+It's possible right now to use recharged arrows without thinking about mana.

Melee-ambush:
-Concerns about further weakening of hunters (6)
-Too many melee knock downs
+Stops ambush spamming
-Melee-knock down spam festival, just luck decides who will win (...)
-warriors ruling fort wars then, no archer-CC-protection for mages
-even less options to stop barbarians (3)
-too much risk, rather 15m range (4)
-Ranged classes that can't knock down from range are ridiculous

stun fist:
-There already is a (ranged) stun spell (3)
-warriors ruling fort wars then, no archer-CC-protection for mages
-even less options to stop barbarians (3)

will domain => slow:
Brainless disagrees: 2
-warlocks need a ranged knock down as a resist counter
-too many slows for warlocks, slows becoming OP (5)
needs to be significant to replace will domain
-will domain is one of the fast spells able to disrupt CC chains and hence needed
-weakening mages even more (2)
-mages need a knock
-Looks just like a warlock spell from Arcania
-more problems for knights (2)
-Nobody dies in 8 seconds from a lock, so a knock down for locks isn't overpowered.

changes in general:
-removing options (...)
-too slow steps, radical changes are needed to fix conceptual problems; Balance updates now shouldn't be about overpowered and underpowered classes. Some conceptual problems:
shared tree disease, too long CC durations, no role/definition of hunters, same spell damage for level 40 and level 60s.

Community changes:

ambush => hunter only (5) 2 posts suggest removing camouflage corpse.

Fix conceptual problems first (...)

combat triangle (mages>warriors>archers>mages), just archers need more tools to kill mages (...)

Wild spirit boost

CC protection buff for warlocks

more CC protection buffs in general

Archer range reduction

more speed for knights, too many slows against them
.....not needed, CC nerfs increase knights' mobility

marksmen:
nerf/remove strategic position (4)
.....that would make marksman a second hunter
nerf winter stroke: More cool down is popular (9) CD offered are 25 (1) and 40 sec(3). Remove damage bonus on winter stoke (1 post).
.....Do not touch winter stroke (1)
Restore the old range (1)
burst of wind range reduction
NGD changes do nothing about freeze spam, Confuse, Caltrops/Lightning arrow
Marksmen are too dependent on items

knock downs:
No knock downs at all for barbarians as their role is damage
knockdowns last too long/should be max 4 seconds (11!!!)
CCs shouldn't "mark your grave", they should be tactical additions, not the center of the game, one knock down can mean a "onehit" and decides the outcome of most fights, making many other tactics useless. Other tactics/spells aren't needed, just knock downs, knock downs are:
An immobilize
A 100% debuff of evade, resist, block, (miss)
A cannot attack
A cancel attack
Barbarians just need one knock down to kill (2)
A game with that many players can't have spells with that long durations, change knock downs like unstoppable madness and army of one (...)
suggestion: chance to break CC when a number of damages is received (2)
suggestion: more counters against them, e.g. buffs
suggestion: Make them just work on moving targets to prevent chains and stacking in an very elegant way. Knock downs not working on knocked down players isn't really elegant.

confuse nerf (5)

solution for 2 second knocks not scaling very well from level 1 to 5: Some spells may have less levels. "no need to force yourself to come up with 5 different effects/spell levels if it doesn't come naturally" (...)

Solution for too strong items (and other stuff): no absolute armor reduction, in a normal percent system 20% more damage is just 20% more, and not 100% more. (e.g.: 400 damage and 480 damage, 20% more, but with 320 points absolute reduction it's 80 damage vs 160 damage, 100% more)

A definition of hunters, something individual differing them from marksmen, like high range vs. low range.


Got tired of counting somewhere on page 7. Create polls if you want numbers. :P
Numbers and additions from bois included.

Ps: Long live insomnia! This dull work for sure helps to sleep though, lol

[Torcida]

Originally Posted by Seher

I think I know. A bit.

NGD changes:

Feint <-> Intimidate swap:
Brainless agrees: 7
+Barb with 2 knocks is too much.
-one reason less to use spears (feint range)
-a slow still makes barbarians quite strong (2)
....+barbarians won't use intimidate
-spring + UM + kick = still too strong
-all classes have the ability to kill others without taking much damage, so why not barbs?
-move kick instead of feint as kick is stronger

Burst of wind blocked by DI:
Brainless agrees: 5
-DI (and confuse) becomes more OP (3)
-needs more nerfs
-more casting time

Marksman mana regeneration change:
-Concerns about lack of mana (2)
+It's possible right now to use recharged arrows without thinking about mana.

Melee-ambush:
-Concerns about further weakening of hunters (6)
-Too many melee knock downs
+Stops ambush spamming
-Melee-knock down spam festival (...)
-warriors ruling fort wars then, no archer protection for mages
-even less options to stop barbarians
-too much risk, rather 15m (4)
-Ranged classes that can't knock down from range are ridiculous

stun fist:
-There already is a (ranged) stun spell (3)
-warriors ruling fort wars then, no archer protection for mages
-even less options to stop barbarians (3)

will domain => slow:
Brainless disagrees: 2
-warlocks need a ranged knock down as a resist counter
-too many slows for warlocks, slows becoming OP (5)
needs to be significant to replace will domain
-will domain is one of the fast spells able to disrupt CC chains
-weakening mages even more (2)
-mages need a knock
-Looks just like a warlock spell from Arcania
-more problems for knights (2)
-Nobody dies in 8 seconds from a lock.

changes in general:
-removing options (...)
-too slow steps, radical changes are needed to fix conceptual problems; Balance updates now shouldn't be about overpowered and underpowered classes. Some conceptual problems:
shared tree disease, CCs, role of hunters, same spell damage for level 40 and level 60s.

Community changes:

-ambush => hunter only (2)

-combat triangle (mages>warriors>archers>mages)

-Wild spirit boost

-CC protection buff for warlocks

-more CC protection buffs in general

-Archer range reduction

-more speed for knights, too many slows against them
.....not needed, CC nerfs increase knights' mobility

-marksmen:
nerf/remove strategic position (4)
.....makes marksman a second hunter
nerf winter stroke (2)
burst of wind range reduction
NGD changes do nothing about freeze spam, Confuse, Caltrops/Lightning arrow
Marksmen are too dependent on items

-knock downs:
No knock downs at all for barbarians as their role is damage
knockdowns last too long/should be max 4 seconds (11!!!)
CCs shouldn't "mark your grave", they should be tactical additions, not the center of the game, one knock down can mean a "onehit"...
No need for other CCs/spells, one knockdown is enough anyway: knock downs are
An immobilize
A 100% debuff of evade, resist, block, (miss)
A cannot attack
A cancel attack
Barbarians just need one knock down to kill (2)
A game with that many players can't have spells with that long durations, change knock downs like unstoppable madness and army of one (...)
suggestion: chance to break CC when a number of damages is received (2)
suggestion: more counters
suggestion: Make them just work on moving targets to prevent chains and stacking in an very elegant way

-confuse nerf (5)

-solution for 2 second knocks not scaling very well: Some spells may have less levels, and/or higher cost for them. (...)

-Solution for too strong items (and other stuff): no absolute armor reduction, in a normal percent system 20% more damage is just 20% more, and not 100% more. (e.g.: 400 damage and 480 damage, 20% more, but with 320 points absolute reduction it's 80 damage vs 160 damage, 100% more)

-A definition of hunters, something individual differing them from marksmen, like high range vs. low range.


Got tired of counting somewhere on page 7.

Ps: Long live insomnia! This dull work for sure helps to sleep though, lol

I still dont understand what he wants us too do XD

[Llayne]

What I see in this is that you are unsure how to fix your game and looking for any help you can get. Most of the community suggestions are biased from shitty players. >.>

[LucianDeathshield]

No, they're just asking us for our opinion so they dont get lots of retarded forumers who dont play the actual game spamming up the forums with how their changes are bad and how a class is op and blahblahblah.

[The_Krome_Dragon]

"Brainless Agrees/Disagrees". Lolz

[PT_DaAr_PT]

I am totally confused with this...

Anyway, every single CC needs to be shortened.

CC duration of 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 seconds changed to 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 seconds per level
CC duration of 7 - 9 - 11 - 13 - 15 seconds changed to 3 - 5 - 7 - 9 - 11 seconds per level

http://regnumonline.com.ar/forum/sho...0&postcount=20

-all classes have the ability to kill others without taking much damage, so why not barbs?

This is retarded I've seen tons of barbs with better defenses than most Knights. Barbarians got Caution, Frenzy and can have the passive resistances if they really want more defense. You can have +37% resistance to physical damage with all that.

[no-body]

Originally Posted by PT_DaAr_PT

This is retarded I've seen tons of barbs with better defenses than most Knights. Barbarians got Caution, Frenzy and can have the passive resistances if they really want more defense. You can have +37% resistance to physical damage with all that.

Barbarians resistance is nothing compared to knights 100% resistance, when anything you can expect from attacking knight is block. I would say nerf knights resistance.

[PT_DaAr_PT]

Originally Posted by no-body

Barbarians resistance is nothing compared to knights 100% resistance, when anything you can expect from attacking knight is block. I would say nerf knights resistance.

No, those are knights abusing the Precise Block animations bugs, they hide the animation and get a 6 second 100% block chance.