The critical damage stat is an even worse idea than hit chance IMO...The damage boost for critical hits is going to be even more BULLSHIT for archers and barbs. Hit chance wasn't completely useless, and neither is +evade...Just a few points in evade raises your evade chance by a couple percent. Hit chance also raised critical chance.

NGD please remove the critical damage stat before this goes live. I will finally completely quit this game, and a lot of other players (mostly mages) aren't too happy either.

They still need to work on it guys. To be short they succeeded so far in raising the hit chance, but now they have to decrease the critical hit change/critical damage. Or something like that. Give em some time :)

My reflections and observations regarding critical hit chance and critical damage:

1) Question: we have no more hit chance that was affecting evasion attribute. This resulted in the past in massive spam of evades when lower lvl players were hiting higher lvl players. Does it now mean that all players have same chance to land normal hit regardless of the opponents lvl? This would be BIG PLUS towards new low lvl players who most time are helpless against higher lvl opponents.

2) Question: What to do with Finesse spell? Its unchanged on amun server, shouldnt it now affect critical hit chance or damage instead of "removed" hit chance"?

Observations:

We got doubbled attribute in weapons that affects equally the critical hit chance, this can be reduced to single attribute.
Currently we got:

+critical hit in armor/weapons with result +10= 1% critical hit chance
+X concentration with result +10 concentration= 1% crtitical hit chance

splitting this between two different attributes may lead to confusion and bugs cause more complicated formula.

Review of spells- as i play only warrior and archer class and their subclasses i review only their spells:

1) ARCHER

Adaptability-nice spell works perfect, no change need maybe except increasing its duration to 20 sek at lvl 5

Evasive tactics/rapid shot-> nice trade for protection/attack speed vs critical damage, excellent work, no change needed

Dodge and passive cat reflexes-useless, needs change from an %boost of current evasion to simple addon like for example got evasion 5% + cat reflexes +15%, final result my evasion is 20%, will need careful values adjustement for balance. Anyway current state of these spells is unacceptable

Meditation useless>lvl 5=+3%

concentration passives- useless considering how much they affect critical hit chance, needs rethinking

Point shot-excellent spell no change needed

duelist- nice passive boosting critical damage, except abuse from boss jewellery good as it is (spell is oki, the damage calculation from jewellery needs rethinking but its a subject for another thread)

Marksman spells:

Hawks Gaze-excellent spell (we may see short bow marksman again in the war zone with critical hit setup at warzone, something new that adds variety to this subclass :beerchug: )

trained eye- works like duelist, theoreticaly its nice tho it might be ill-used to overboost critical damage, needs rethinking

2) WARRIOR:

Martial defence- works good, keep it unchanged

Execution- works good, keep it unchanged

Martial reflexes works good no change needed

Rigorous preparations-useless spell, needs change/rethinking

OTHER SPELLS:

Hinder, challenge and other debuffs that affect critical damage-I like them, seems to be balanced counterweapon against critical damage, seems to be well balanced tho i feel that i hadnt test them enough

Challenging roar- its a nice balanced spell BUT BARBARIAN IS OVERPOWERED ALREADY does he really need it? I think not.

jewellery

current stats of hypnotizing amulet and boss rings (i tested my friends ring of the earth) have neglible influence on the stats they are affecting, needs rethinking/adjustement

And mages? Make mage's spells crit too, please, including DoT ticks.

Who cares about mages?

I'v been going to test out and observe the RNG at amun, and must say, there is still too much resists for my taste.

Hmm yes, indeed. There does seem to be a lot of resists in the helpful screenshot you provided. Fortunately you didn't just write a line of useless shit.

A troll is hurt poor child. ::P

The problem is not only their RNG, but the community which will always cry about resists even if resist rate were minimized.

That's why I feel sorry for NGD doing this...even if they do great job, people will still cry because the main issue is in players who cannot admit their faults in war.

Do you ever make sense on the forum?
If you think they do a great job, thats fine. but people are here who share feedback and different opinions. if you never criticise shit then what are you discussing on the forum

Anyone know the barb dragon set? Has to be changed too.

These are some of the pvps i did with barbs. All those resists were done while the barb was not on Unstoppable madness.

That barb Alvaro resisted my thunder twice in a row from the two pvps we had.

Was trying a critical setup and seriously this is just bs:
http://i.imgur.com/mZIr4UL.jpg

Try maybe next time without boss amulet, you will see the difference ;).

On my marks critical setup works good tho i use 2xRoL and master archer amulet.

Most Bull...t we see when it comes to archer/warrior damage is the boss jewellery-was discussed many times, and its not subject to this thread.

Heres the non-"skill" version:

http://i.imgur.com/o2vphRt.jpg

1) doubt you got enough mana and time to buff up so much in normal fights (unless play safely in zerg)

2) what lvl was your opponent? was he/she using any defencive buffs? what lvl armor was he/she wearing

3) did you skill all passives maximizing the critical damage? (eg. duelist, trained eye) usually you have not enough: skill points, power points, mana to get all desired spells to have usable setup. Unless you drop some skill trees entirely like forget any tricks or evasion if want to max long bow+duelist lvl 4 from short bows and max recharged arrows and aiming mastery. Same goes to barb if want to have max passives for strenght and damage buffs etc.

second question is crucial, as:

A) my marks with similar dexterity and really good bow and good arrows and setup skilled towards normals barely pass 300 normals on lvl 60 opponents (some your normals are as high as my lethal strike 5 with buffs)

B) I saw "OP" screen shots made by lvl 60 guys showing OP damage on... unchallenging opponents/mobs (lol?) and on the other hand i saw once rage post made by lock who was complaining about resist spam (he forgot to mention he spammed spells on impossible/v hard mobs-100% troll)

Hey all!

I'm dropping by to write down a brief explanation on what we're working on right now, which is what we're probably going to upload to amun very soon.
Remember that ALL of these are just ideas, that must be tested, and that whatever you read here must NOT be taken as something that will surely be uploaded to live servers.
Keep in mind that for these kind of tests is why we call Amun an experimental server.
One more thing: ALL values used in this text are given exclusively for explanatory purposes. They do not represent any changes or modifications to skills, equipment, attributes, etc.

Having said this, let's move on to the first topic!


Resistance, Evasion and Block Chance System:

Due to technical, interpretation, balancing and gameplay terms, we'll try out a different focus on this system.
This change will make combat be determined by only 1 layer of calculations to decide whether if a player must, for example, evade or not, instead of the 2 layers that's being used today.
The objective will remain the same: to make resistances, evades and blocks show up with a low rate, and that they can only change the flow of a combat situation (pvp or group) if they're triggered with the use of powers.

In order to quickly brief you guys up:
As Adrian explained somewhere out there in a post, to determine when a player must evade an attack (let's use evade, but it applies for the other 2 things) first checks if he/she has an Absolute Evasion modifier active.
If he/she doesn't, then checks the Base Evasion stat (the one given by items, powers, etc) and with this value decides the character's fate.
It's pretty complicated in a technical level, it's hard to explain ingame with simple feedback and... well it's basically annoying.

What we want to do is to simply reduce the whole system to 1 unique layer, easy to understand and "manipulate" from a user point of view, by using powers, items, builds, etc.

To achieve this, all pasive powers, attributes, and powers like Escapist, will give Absolute Evasion chances.
This means that the user will see a real % value, which will determine what chances he/she has to evade.
In other words, if your character has, let's say, 15% evasion chance, is absolute. You could practically evade 15 hits out of 100 incoming blows.
This does not mean that you're always going to evade 15 hits out of 100 attacks, but is a real percentage that shows you what are your probabilities.


This absolute evasion value will also be upgradeable of course by using powers such as Escapist.
If you have 15% absolute evade, and cast Escapist that grants 100% absolute evade, you'll end up with 115% (which is capped at 100%), and lets you evade everything.
The new thing about this is that absolute evasion does not need to be always 100%, as you can see in "absolute" powers now available in live servers. They can also be set with any other different value between 0 and 100.

This means that if we create a debuff that removes 8% absolute evade, if you had 15% you'll go all the way down to 7%.
If we create a buff that grants you 20% absolute evade, you'll end up with 35%.
As you can see, it's pretty straightforward.

Besides this, you'll also be able to porcentually enhance your absolute Evade chance, with other skills (non passive), like "Dodge", or by using items like leggings with Evasion bonuses.
Considering this, if for example you have 15% absolute evade and cast "Dodge", which has a +30% Evade Chance (Non absolute), you'll now have 19.5% Absolute Evade Chance.
This is because this 30% affects the base you already have. Since 30% of 15 is 4.5, then 15 + 4.5 = 19.5

The same goes the other way, if someone reduces your Evasion chance in 40%; it'll be 15% minus this 40%, which means 15 - 6 = 9

This way, the system is a lot simpler with just one layer. If an attack goes "through" it, it'll land successfully.
This will also allow users to see the real effect granted by equipping items with evasion bonuses, or how much does it affect things up to cast a skill like "Dodge", which almost no one uses.
Thanks to its simplicity, it also allows a more wide array of posibilities when setting up a new build, and it also helps us out to make easy and understandable decisions whenever a new OP power or subclass shows up (this may happen right now, specially in the archer vs mage scenario).

---

On the other hand, we're also working in everything involving Criticals.
There's a high chance we're not going to continue the Crit Dmg changes included right now in Amun, as they require a lot of work and fixes and time.
It's a pretty good idea to include sometime in the future, but it needs more attention and analysis.

As for now, we're solely working in Crit Chances. We'll upload changes related to this very soon.

---

Leaving behind some of this RNG stuff, and heading onto invasions, we're aware of several isses regarding, for example, the gem pedestal's player counter. This one, along with other already mentioned issues, will also be fixed in this update.

From today on and until the fix is live, if you find someone making use of the player counter exploit, please report it and we'll take the appropiate measures in one or more accounts, if needed.

Best!

Adrian, thank you for posting this explanation. One brief question:

What about mages? What about spell focus, concentration and intelligence attribute? Any use of it in near future? CoR is not all about warriors and archers.

One question relating to barbarians, what happens with Berserk? Since the spell is -100% evasion, so anything absolute or relative evasion stats/bonus he has is rendered useless using Berserk and no Berserk is pretty much no barb.

I'll be honest, haven't actually tried out Amun, but I have just finished reading this entire thread!

Glad to see some work being done on RNG. There do seem to be mixed reactions to the current changes on Amun, so I'm looking forward to testing it out myself.

Main reason I felt I had to post was to get my two cents in regarding the critical chance thing, I am glad you are dropping that. It is the last thing we need in the current state of this game, as it will only further the gap in damage between mage and warriors/archers.

Keep up the good work, hopefully I'll have some more useful insights to the RNG changes once (or if) I bother to log on to Amun.

First off, this sounds very promising, im excited about it again.


I like the one layer approach to things.

Maybe its a later topic but, what about item bonuses, stats, buffs that boost hit chance and spell focus?

I think they should be kept in, but be converted into an absolute "positive" value to counter the opponents absolute evade, resist and block chance.

Say base hit chance is always 100% unbuffed, so say you end with 110% hit chance with all bonuses, then everyone below 10% evade chance have 0% evade chance in reality or 20% evade chance have 10% evade chance in reality.

So essentially "absolute" is just a term for a one layer chance, spells that are meant to be truly absolute would need to be high enough to never go below 100% no matter what opponent stats and debuffs you may get hit with.

At this point I have to comment that the new RGN system seems more robust than the previous one, and especially in the case of low number of hits. Users in this post, as well as from the Ra server on the corresponding spanish thread, have basically confirmed it.

Apart from "annoying", was the old system also more server-resource consuming? I am asking this, cause by translating some posts of Adrian from the corresponding spanish thread, he implied that the old system was imposing with higher burden on the server. I guess you are still searching of it, but let's hope that the new RGN system will also lead to less server lag in overall, which will be quite visible from the user point of view.

The proposed evasion/resist/block system seems rational and pretty straightforward, as you mentioned. But, as a player, I would like to have a correct and uniform description on all spells. I.e., which spells give Absolute evasion/resist/block, which spells give Relative to base evasion/resist/block. This has to be done once and for all.

And at this point, I would like to see this getting extended to all the other spells as well. Which spells are based on Total Damage Attack and which are based on Weapon Damage. And how Total Damage Attack is defined anyway? Does it include, for example, Recharged Arrows or not?

All these have to be clarified, if we like boasting that we do have a straightforward spell and evasion/resist/block system.

As I have pointed out in previous posts and ingame discussion, the Critical Damage Idea was poorly designed at the time being and would definitely hinder the RGN patch on live servers. So, i agree that it should not be further developed at this moment.

Of course the big question here is what will be the fate of Hit Chance, since on the new system is considered as 100% (if I am not mistaken). With what Attribute will it be replaced on spells/gems/armor/weapons? Critical chance or Spell Focus (and Evasion / Spell Resistance) could be an idea for melee/archers and mages, respectively. I guess we have to wait on this a bit more.

I have some questions at this point:
1. If NGD abandons the idea of Critical Damage, it will return back to the formula of (1+1/3) * Normal_Hit ? Or will this be revised as well ?
2. Assuming that HC is 100% on all players, does it mean that a low level player could land hits on a high lvl player on the same success rate as with a high lvl player? This is not necessarily bad, but it could lead to some weird situations, for example on boss raids, where low lvl toons could have a bigger impact than the expected one, since they could land hits (and possibly spells too?) with much higher ease. A comment on this would be appreciated.
3. Will NGD at the final patch give us some more insight regarding Spell Focus / Spell Resistance? I would like to see the corresponding percent on my character sheet, plus some other attributes like attack speed, movement speed, and DPS. This has been already mentioned on the thread here.

Thank you, Frosk, for the detailed feedback. All these days I got tired of translating Adrian's posts from the spanish forum thread. I understand that the International community is much smaller than the Spanish-lang one, but we deserve some attention from time to time too. :p

Best,

What about those classes where HC seems useless, and criticals don't exist? Will the spells get criticals?

May aswell give those classes a special case where any spell can't be dispelled, in place of a critical hit or something equally retarded (e.g DoT does entire damage as direct damage, why not, fuck it). Seems fair with these 50m 1200dmg hits. Funz.

Best,

Then you want critical South Cross and Leathal Strike hits as well i guess? :p

Tried to check stuff on Amun but the system doesn't seem to see my lv 48 warlock and I had to create a level one char....I can't check anything with.
Guess I will just leave it :hat:

Apart from what you say, I would like to notice that the "testinsta60" redeem code seems to have stopped working. NGD should look at that in order to facilitate user tests.

Best,

May as well. 50 range too for SC. To make it fair.

Hey guys,

We'll be updating Amun in a bit with a new version of the game. Here's this version's changelog!

Changelog 1.12:

Gameplay - System:

- Modified: Realm walls can be recaptured (only by the defending realm).
- Modified: Hit Chance removed, replaced with Critical Chance, which raises the chance shown in the Character Sheet.
- New: Statistical RNG system for combat. Indicated chances now should be accurate both in the short and long run.

Gameplay - Skills:
Warrior:
- Martial Reflexes: Critical Chance changed to 100%/135%/170%/225%/300%. Duration changed to 40/50/60/70/100.
- Rigorous Preparation: Opponent Critical Chance changed to: -15%/-20%/-25%/-30%/-40%. Opponent Miss Chance changed to Evasion Chance: 25%/40%/55%/70%/100%. Cooldown changed to 90 seconds.

Knight:
- Precise Block: Mana cost updated to 150/225/300/375/450.
- Challenge: Opponent Hit Chance changed to Opponent Spell Resistance -25%/-40%/-55%/-70%/-100%. Added Opponent Concentration -10%/-15%/-20%/-25%/-30% Duration changed to 5/5/10/10/15.

Archer:
- Rapid Shot: Hit Chance changed to Critical Chance: -50%.
- Duelist: Hit Chance changed to Critical Chance.
- Hinder: Opponent Hit Chance changed to Opponent Damage Bonus: -2%/-4%/-6%/-8%/-10%.
- Finesse: Opponent Hit Chance changed to Opponent Critical Chance: -10%/-25%/-40%/-60%/-90%. Duration changed to: 10/15/20/25/30.
- Dodge: Evasion Chance changed to 30/35/40/60/90.
- Evasive Tactics: Hit Chance changed to Damage Bonus: -2%/-4%/-6%/-7%/-8%.
- Cat Reflexes: Evade Chance changed to: 5%/10%/15%/20%/25%.
- Spell Elude: Spell Resistance changed to: 20%/50%/90%/140%/200%.
- Escapist: Absolute Evasion Chance changed to: 50%/60%/70%/80%/100%. Duration changed to: 4/4/5/6/8. Cooldown raised to 75 seconds.
- Son of the Wind: Absolute Spell Resist Chance changed to: 50%/60%/70%/80%/100%. Duration changed to: 4/4/5/6/8.

Mage:
- Protection Dome: Spell Resist Chance changed to Absolute Spell Resist Chance: 3%/6%/10%/16%/25%. Duration changed to: 20.
- Curse: Opponent Hit Chance changed to Opponent Critical Chance: -10%/-15%/-20%/-25%/-30%. Opponent Spell Focus changed to Opponent Damage Bonus: -2%/-4%/-6%/-7%/-8%.

Interface:
- New: Spell Resistance is shown in the Character Sheet.

Keep in mind that, as we explained before, absolute chances add up directly. If you have 5%, and the power grants you 50%, you end up with 55%.

Non absolute chances porcentually multiply what you already have. If you have 5%, and the power grants 50%, you come out with 7.5%

That's it! We'll let you know when the server's up with the new version.

Best,

Precise block 450 mana, hahaha. That will be fun. :beerchug:

You do realize that you just wrote the same thing twice, don't you? Shouldn't the spell descriptions AND the spell effect descriptions be distinguishable? It does not seem to me that on every item, every spell, every buff, you can easily see whether it's an abolute or relative bonus. And I fear that as soon as it gets translated into other languages, we'll have a big big mess.

This is a bit excessive considering Knight auras aren't cheap, don't you think? :/

I like it! But what about Blindness, Clumsiness, Metabolic Control, Obfuscate, Omnipresent etc.? Make concentration useful or just revamp these spells :)


Fix Precise Block bug, please.

Well, I guess I'll have some more points for derping now, any suggestions what to put them into?

Not looking forward to op Syrtis marks with x2 eve rings. 68% crit chance, and that's without crit buffs. My god man.

Nah. Eve ring is nerfed to +34 ice +6% crit chance, which isnt even absolute one.

Protection Dome affect self+allies, +25% Absolute Spell Resist Chance and 20 sec duration? I need to modify my PvP build lol...wb Staff Mastery :P

Seriously? If that's the case, I guess those other boss rings will be even more useless (the conc+hc ones)

Exactly... +6 conc +6% crit chance. My crit chance increased from 4% to 5%, OP.

Great, so non-boss-geared hunters will do even less damage if they don't wanna be 2-hit'd by a rushing barb or gonna get killed by boss-geared marks while they're trying to target conjus, unbuffed, with higher damage output...

Why not 4/5/6/7/8?
Why giving an extra second for the highest level while the duration doesn't change for the first and second level?
Do you think anyone will use it on level one or two anyway?
Pfft, why do I care then you can ask ^^ Okay, never mind it :D
Just seemed a bit unfair.

Any news about this, Frosk?

EDIT: With the mana cost increase on Precise block, would it be possible to drop the 'Stop on move' part? This would keep the spell useful and would get rid of the current bug as well. Eventually, you could add -x% Movement speed to it. Just an idea. :hat: