Hunter: Ninja vs Pet user, which is better?

[Valorius]

This is a debate that goes back and forth at times, but has never had it's own thread(at least not that i've seen).

So, my $.02 on the subject, class by class, are offered below:

Warlocks are extremely easy for high evasion/tricks ninjas. A pet using hunter is actually dramatically inferior vs warlocks because the pet is such an extremely easy source of HP's for the smart warlock to drain, and because alternatively, the warlock can kill a pet before it covers the ground to the warlock to even get a single hit in (unlike the player, evasion doesn't protect your pet from the warlocks extremely powerful magical attacks). Of all the classes, Warlock is by far the easiest for a ninja hunter to defeat 1 on 1, but can be very tough for a pet using hunter if the warlock is smart and the fight begins at some distance. However, in an offensive ambush scenario, pets are quite effective vs warlocks too. Advantage: Ninja

Against a warjurer, who can kill your pet very fast, and who is protected from 90% of the pets dmg, all a pet does vs a warjurer is insure that killing the pet will leave the warjurer with a very weak opponent. Like a warlock, a Warjurer can kill a pet extremely quickly. A good warjurer is a tough opponent for a ninja too, however he and his full alotment of power points can be protected from the warjurers attacks by high evasion.
Advantage: Ninja.

In many scenarios pets are not an advantage vs a smart barbarian. In fact, i think if a pet using hunter's ambush is resisted, they are very, very weak vs. barbs. A smart barb will have that pet dead in 1 hit before it ever lands a blow, if your ambush doesn't work.
In those cases a pet using hunter is just a very, very weak archer, and at that point the hunter is in serious, serious trouble when facing the Barb, because a diminished speed/low tricks/low bow/19 pets skilled hunter has a much harder time escaping than a high evasion/high tricks ninja does. However in an offensive ambush role a pet can be highly effective vs barbs(and all classes). In 'meeting engagement' or defensive type fights, a pets effectiveness is almost totally contingent on the ambush spell and the intelligence of the barb.

A confused un-buffed barb dies very quickly. A smart ninja will either attack a barb unbuffed, or run from a buffed barb until his buffs expire, then confuse him. In a close combat or defensive/ambushed scenario, a barb is extremely dangerous to both pet user and ninja (and all other classes) alike.
Advantage: Push

Knight vs hunter is a draw. Smart knights have almost no trouble vs pets either. AoO is a perfect spell for killing the hunters pet (let alone all the blocking spells). Even if you get knocked/stunned, the damage you'll take while out of action is minuscule. A knight is at far, far more disadvantage vs a ninja with maxed speed (which almost all ninjas have) and room to manuever than he is vs a pet using hunter.
In fact, with room to maneuver and max speed it is completely impossible for a knight to defeat a hunter. No pet is needed for the hunter to defeat the pet, just lots of time and some space. Some knights have a hard time vs pet using hunters, but that's just their build and their tactics that are at fault.

I have had many of these fights end in a no result as both parties broke off and went their own way. All a pet does is give a knight something to kill, as opposed to the thin air that a ninja hunter offers.
Advantage: Push

Pets do offer an advantage against a marksman. They're not needed to beat a marks, but they do make beating them a good deal easier. From my days of using pets, i can recall abusing quite a few marksmen with my great sabertooth. Of all the classes, pets are most effective vs marksmen.
Advantage: Pets

I personally find pet using hunters to be far less challenging than other ninjas. In fights vs pet using hunters they can often be used by a ninja against the pet user in some clever ways if certain situations present themselves, and in all cases they can just be ignored if the ninja so chooses.

Overview:

The best use of pets is in tight terrain, like forests or very rocky areas where the pet using hunter just runs in circles around an object(or blatantly exploits facing bugs like many do) and his pet pounds his unable to fight back opponent to death. Conversely, a pet is the best offense vs the running in a circle around objects tactic too. Pet using hunters have very little problem vs that tactic because their pets can go/attack through many objects.

In open terrain pets are extremely vulnerable, and also give away a hunters position regularly. They also make it quite difficult to hide behind terrain at times. A pet can be used to hide 'inside of' because of the lack of collision avoidance in Regnum. It's a bug exploit, but everyone does it. I do it too(with other players pets)

In fort wars pets or large battles, pets typically die almost instantly, so obviously the ninja type hunter has a clear advantage in these scenarios.

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I am sure opinions will vary, these are mine.

[makarios68]

It seems you started this thread to convince us how crap pets are.

In fact, it seems that you believe the only successful pet hunter is one who uses trees and facing bugs.

I have to say that i find the whole post totally biased, without an ounce of objectivity, and utterly useless.

[Valorius]

Originally Posted by makarios68

It seems you started this thread to convince us how crap pets are.

I started it to take an objective and indepth look at the issue, in the hopes that some top hunters would offer their own in-depth opinions and analasyes (sp?).

Observe:

Originally Posted by Valorius

So, my $.02 on the subject, class by class, are offered below:

I am sure opinions will vary, these are mine.

I clearly stated these were just my opinions. But, eh, thanks for your opinion of me.

I've used pets many times in the past including extensive testing with every available high lvl mob after the last major pet update some time ago). The old Great Sabertooth was a pretty nasty pet, and made the pet/no pet choice a pretty difficult one (i used a sabertooth for a good couple months back then), but sadly, it's no longer in the game. Same was true for the ranged pets. Sadly the current crop of pets are nowhere near as good as what we had to choose from in the past.

If Pets were demonstrably better, BELIEVE ME, i would use them.

For example, I used to criticize SB's because at one time many updates ago, they were nowhere near as good as LBs, then many changes were made, and i switched right over to SBs because doing so made me better. Now it's the LB tree that's much weaker. If at some point they get better, i will switch right back to them, because it will make me better.

The same is true for pets.

If i thought for 1 second they were better, i would be using them. Because 1st and foremost, i like to win.

Actually, i use LB and SB now. 30/med LB for fort wars and LR stuff, 25 LB for high damage ensnare, and a 20/fast SB for dual shot and 'knife fighting'. But that's not something you can do with pets. You either have them, or you don't.

In my fights vs pet using hunters i have a very high winning %. Now maybe that's just me, but it will always be true that once a hunters pet is killed, he will always be weaker than a ninja, whose full allotment of discipline and power points are all built into his character. This is just a fact, it's not subject to bias or debate.

One other point i forgot to mention that works against pets is the restriction to LOS (Line Of Sight) they cause, especially big ones. A Beastly Yeti is a TERRIBLE pet when you're fighting with allies, and so is a Giant Troll, Tol-Tar, etc. These big pets cause your allies immense frustration as they are unable to target the enemy because your pet is in the way. It can also cause them to be unable to buff/heal you as well, because your own pet is in the way.

A smart enemy ranged attacker can also stand inside your pet in battles or even one on ones to prevent you or your allies from being able to target them. These are also straight up facts. Any player who's played any time at all in WZ has cursed at his monitor when he couldn't select an enemy or ally because some hunters gigantic pet was in the way. It is a clear and obvious disadvantage. A ninja's pet is never in the way...he has no pet.

The best pets for LOS issues are small ones, like hyenas, goblins, snakes. Those 3 are all pretty solid selections, as far as pets go.

A ninja's pet will never drown or get lost either. A ninja always has his full power built into his character.

Do i think Ninjas are 'better'? Obviously, or i would use a pet. It aint about ego or bias, it's about what has worked for me in my experience, and what hasn't. It's disappointing that you would be so dismissive Wudy, but it is your choice.

[Angelwinged_Devil]

Originally Posted by makarios68

I have to say that i find the whole post totally biased, without an ounce of objectivity, and utterly useless.

I can only agree...

this is opinion, not objective advantages and disadvantages, just from your point of view.

[Znurre]

Originally Posted by Angelwinged_Devil

this is opinion, not objective advantages and disadvantages, just from your point of view.

As he stated in the beginning of his post, so you can't blame him for not being objective.

[e30G]

While I cannot comment on the effectiveness of pets or lack of, I can say that this stands true:

Originally Posted by Valorius

One other point i forgot to mention that works against pets is the restriction to LOS (Line Of Sight) they cause, especially big ones. A Beastly Yeti is a TERRIBLE pet when you're fighting with allies, and so is a Giant Troll, Tol-Tar, etc. These big pets cause your allies immense frustration as they are unable to target the enemy because your pet is in the way. It can also cause them to be unable to buff/heal you as well, because your own pet is in the way.

A smart enemy ranged attacker can also stand inside your pet in battles or even one on ones to prevent you or your allies from being able to target them. These are also straight up facts. Any player who's played any time at all in WZ has cursed at his monitor when he couldn't select an enemy or ally because some hunters gigantic pet was in the way. It is a clear and obvious disadvantage. A ninja's pet is never in the way...he has no pet.

The best pets for LOS issues are small ones, like hyenas, goblins, snakes. Those 3 are all pretty solid selections, as far as pets go.

I can't count the many times I have failed to support an allied warrior because of an allied hunter's giant pet. I would think smaller pets would be better for team play.

[fluffy_muffin]

It is weird post from someone who don't know how to use pet. But ok so let's start.

Warlock.
Camu ambush stun fist + bestial = dead lock
In case when hunter have high evasion then high dmg pet + bestial is enough if he know what to do.

Warju.
Ambush (confuse as an option) stun fist zarkit/distracting shot, kill mage.

Barb.
Camu, confuse, skin, ambush, SS, stun fist. Usually barb have 60-80 % hp less before pet is dead and for me it is enough.

Knight, skin of the beast + bestial. It will die but later.

Other hunters. Depend.

Marks. If you prevent buffing then pet is your friend. In other case it is additional 40-100dmg.

Pet have their cost but if you know how to use it, it will be your weapon and punch bag.

[Angelwinged_Devil]

Originally Posted by Znurre

As he stated in the beginning of his post, so you can't blame him for not being objective.

I know, but that makes the thread sorta based around his opinion and not nonpet vs pet, it's just his playing style he puts into play, can't really use it for anything other than improving his way of playing when people give input

[fluffy_muffin]

Originally Posted by e30ernest

I can't count the many times I have failed to support an allied warrior because of an allied hunter's giant pet. I would think smaller pets would be better for team play.

When NGD will do something with their dmg and fix pet's generaly then i will use small pet. Now i need them to make dmg before it die.

[Comp]

It becomes a fighting style. Take me for example, when I'm without a pet I loose many many fights - it feels like a part of me is missing. Many will say, bah they will only kill the pet...and I say SOOPER - cause they aren't hitting me. So, I love using pets and I have learned to use them effectively. While they wack the pet, stunn fist or skin of the beast truly sucks for the attacker.

Another aspect is that I hardly fight alone - I'm usually with a clan mate (typically Wudy) and the two of us with pets have won some HUGE battles...epic in my opinion. So saying pets suck isn't true...many times the pet gets the blow in that makes a difference of me dying or the enemy dying.

If a hunter chooses a style of fighting and sticking the fight out the configuration can be very different. Wudy and I have very very different set-ups....heck, I haven't used sotw for a week. Many hunters have the tactic of "if confuse fails I'll run away".

In my opinion, hunters who "believe" they are damage dealers are only kidding themselves...hunters are not damage dealers in comparison to other classes. Heck, a conjurer has the ability to staff hit in excess of 600 damage. For a hunter to hit excess of 600 damage they would need to combine several skills for buffing AND used a weapon damage attack.

Another point of view here is there's no such thing as a ninja in RO....your still a hunter and you have no ultimate DEATH skill in your back of tricks. Hunters need to understand their role...scouting, ambushes, and unsuspected killing.

I'm a pet hunter.....tried petless but never liked it.