Hunter vs Marksman.

[Valorius]

NOTE: -THESE POSTS WERE MOVED FROM ANOTHER THREAD-

I used pets for a couple months back before they nerfed them all, and tried many, many configurations with them. I also tested all the "best" pets after the update too. They simply don't measure up. No pets for me.

I do extremely well vs lvl 19 pet users in 1 vs 1's. I'm pretty sure my 1 on 1 winning % vs all classes is highest against pet using hunters.

Even back when you could get a great sabertooth doing 200dmg fast attacks, pets and their masters were weak. Bug prone, and no more than cannon fodder in fort battles. Once rid of his pet a hunter with all those points in pets disciplines is a limp wristed sissy mary. Honestly, not even excessive resists usually save pet hunters against me.

For me the real choice is between confuse and pets, and confuse wins that contest by a cool mile.

When a 'ninja' hunter goes to battle he has all 45 power points with him til death do he part, and with dirty fighting, sudden strike, and a really good bow, the damage you can deal in the new ensnare era is immense. Barring evades, with the equipment my char has now i can literally kill a lvl 50 hunter with 3 piggy back attacks using Sudden strike and DF. Ensnare arrow 5 will do over 1000dmg if you toss a death sentence in on top.

Marksman are far more difficult than hunters with pets, but still entirely manageable if you confuse them early, and have good equipment. Ninja hunters are harder than both. In both these cases evades are often the pivotal factor. When i used to use pets marksmen were a little easier, but we had way better pets back then. There is no pet in the game even close to as good as the great sabertooth used to be dmg wise. With beastial 5 you could see 400+ fast attack crits (and IIRC vs mages way up in the 500+ range).

The hardest class for me, by far, is Barbarians. Barbarians can -and do- kill pets in one shot, ive had it done to my own pets dozens and dozens of times when i used to use them.

Knights are almost impossible to kill anymore because they block everything, but fighting them is optional, so in reality they're irrelevant.

My setup is:

Scout 19(Lvl 5 ensnare, lvl 5 passive speed), LB 15 (passive dmg lvl 4), SB 11(lvl 3 dual shot, lvl 3 dex), Tricks 17(lvl 4 confuse and dirty fighting), Evasion 19(24 points total), Pets 3.

That's how much value i place in pets. None. Honestly, even if i had 4 more power points that NGD came to me and said "These are for you Valorius", i still wouldnt put them in pets. I'd either add them to a DoT or i'd add them to stunfist. Or escapist. But not to pets.

The setup you describe gives you no confuse. I can tell you right now that if i land first attack confuse on a hunter w/ pet 9 times out of 10 they're dead. No matter what pet setup they're using.

[Comp]

Originally Posted by Valorius

I used pets for a couple months back before they nerfed them all, and tried many, many configurations with them. I also tested all the "best" pets after the update too. They simply don't measure up. No pets for me.

I do extremely well vs lvl 19 pet users in 1 vs 1's. I'm pretty sure my 1 on 1 winning % vs all classes is highest against pet using hunters.

Even back when you could get a great sabertooth doing 200dmg fast attacks, pets and their masters were weak. Bug prone, and no more than cannon fodder in fort battles. Once rid of his pet a hunter with all those points in pets disciplines is a limp wristed sissy mary. Honestly, not even excessive resists usually save pet hunters against me.

For me the real choice is between confuse and pets, and confuse wins that contest by a cool mile.

When a 'ninja' hunter goes to battle he has all 45 power points with him til death do he part, and with dirty fighting, sudden strike, and a really good bow, the damage you can deal in the new ensnare era is immense. Barring evades, with the equipment my char has now i can literally kill a lvl 50 hunter with 3 piggy back attacks using Sudden strike and DF. Ensnare arrow 5 will do over 1000dmg if you toss a death sentence in on top.

Marksman are far more difficult than hunters with pets, but still entirely manageable if you confuse them early, and have good equipment. Ninja hunters are harder than both. In both these cases evades are often the pivotal factor. When i used to use pets marksmen were a little easier, but we had way better pets back then. There is no pet in the game even close to as good as the great sabertooth used to be dmg wise. With beastial 5 you could see 400+ fast attack crits (and IIRC vs mages way up in the 500+ range).

The hardest class for me, by far, is Barbarians. Barbarians can -and do- kill pets in one shot, ive had it done to my own pets dozens and dozens of times when i used to use them.

Knights are almost impossible to kill anymore because they block everything, but fighting them is optional, so in reality they're irrelevant.

My setup is:

Scout 19(Lvl 5 ensnare), LB 15 (only LB skill i have points in is passive dmg lvl 4), SB 11(lvl 3 dual shot, lvl 3 dex), Tricks 17(lvl 4 confuse and dirty fighting), Evasion 19(24 points total), Pets 3.

That's how much value i place in pets. None. Honestly, even if i had 4 more power points that NGD came to me and said "These are for you Valorius", i still wouldnt put them in pets. I'd either add them to a DoT or i'd add them to stunfist. Or escapist. But not to pets.

The setup you describe gives you no confuse. I can tell you right now that if i land first attack confuse on a hunter w/ pet 9 times out of 10 they're dead. No matter what pet setup they're using.

Confuse is a crutch used my many. I don't use confuse because it's not needed to win (especially with it's failure rate). I can honestly say in the past several weeks the only hunter who beat me w/confuse was Tripple-H and that's cause I was afk at the market area. Outside of that I've learned one VERY important aspect of fighting....never go unbuff'd. I'd say I'm buff'd 95% of the time and a confuse only keeps me from casting ambush...that's about it....I've learned to deal with it when landed on me.

But....pets are not for you and that's kewl. I've learned to use my pets quite wisely and the bugs don't really bother me. As for barbs and one-hit-wonder pets....that's what skin of beast lvl 1 is for...it's quite friggin funny . They still kill it - but not in one hit and that gives me enough time to deal enough damage to them that escapist + base + dual shot wins. It's a tough fight and I win maybe 75% of those fights.

EDIT: Oh btw....yeti does 350 base 650 on wrath. Skin of the beast he gets SC'd for about 600 from lvl 50 barbs...

Sorry for taking this off topic...

[Anpu]

i have no problem with petless hunters, they are far more easier than hunter with pet.

[Valorius]

Originally Posted by Solarus

Confuse is a crutch used my many.

Pets are a crutch used by many.

Originally Posted by Solarus

I don't use confuse because it's not needed to win (especially with it's failure rate).

I don't use a pet because it's not needed to win. (especially with their bugs)

Originally Posted by Solarus

I can honestly say in the past several weeks the only hunter who beat me w/confuse was Tripple-H and that's cause I was afk at the market area.

You havn't fought me 1 on 1 in that timespan. >:}

Originally Posted by Solarus

Outside of that I've learned one VERY important aspect of fighting....never go unbuff'd. I'd say I'm buff'd 95% of the time and a confuse only keeps me from casting ambush...that's about it....I've learned to deal with it when landed on me.

Running around i'm sure you're buffed with acrobat and maybe spell elude. Like i am.

However, when you're running around your pet isn't buffed, and you don't have defensive tactics or dodge cast. And you sure don't run around with SoTW cast.

Confuse takes all those spells away.

If it misses you just turn into the wind, hit SoTW, and mobility, and you're gone. If the hunter chases give him a parabolic shot and a break apart, and run for a little while til confuse cools down, then try again.

When confuse is followed up with SS and DF (with a really good bow), any lvl 50 hunter is in for a world of hurt, pet or not.

Originally Posted by Solarus

As for barbs and one-hit-wonder pets....that's what skin of beast lvl 1 is for...it's quite friggin funny . They still kill it - but not in one hit and that gives me enough time to deal enough damage to them that escapist + base + dual shot wins. It's a tough fight and I win maybe 75% of those fights.

Lvl 1 skin of the beast buffed pet will still go down in 2 SC's at most. A Barb can kill an Elite cyclops warrior in one hit, so even with double the HP it would only take two hits- and your yeti or a regular cyclops is a lot weaker than an Elite cyclops.

If you have multiple points in SoTB and in Beastial Wrath then all that is gone the moment you get confused.

I played with pets for quite a while. My favorite was the mountain goblin shaman, which got taken away. Then i switched to the Great Sabertooth. Taken away. The other pet i really liked(as far as pets go) was the beastly dark wolf. They're still around. For a lvl 4 pet, they were pretty solid. Very good vs mages (unlike a cylcops warrior a warlock generally totally ignores a lower lvl pet, so you're actually better off with one.) Of course it used to drown itself 10x a day.

Originally Posted by Solarus

EDIT: Oh btw....yeti does 350 base 650 on wrath.

Not against marksmen, which is ultimately what this is about. For a marksman with strat pos, evasive tactics and acrobat it would be lucky to do 200dmg with Beastial. For that matter it would be lucky to do 200 vs a hunter with lvl 5 acrobat and lvl 5 defensive tactics cast. Evasive tactics 5 is an extremely effective spell.

PS: Don't worry about the off topic, it's interesting conversation.

[LenaRosemberg]

Originally Posted by Valorius

Marksman are far more difficult than hunters with pets, but still entirely manageable if you confuse them early, and have good equipment. Ninja hunters are harder than both

So marksmen with SP are not a problem

Just make it 1 min duration, 3 minutes cooldown and 500 mana cost at lvl 5.

Marks wants to be knights, alright, so now you have your personal heroic presence

[Valorius]

Originally Posted by LenaRosemberg

So marksmen with SP are not a problem

Only because confuse prevents them from casting it to begin with. Stops them from casting DS or SoTW too, which is another REALLY good reason to have confuse.

Originally Posted by sathilda

Just make it 1 min duration, 3 minutes cooldown and 500 mana cost at lvl 5.

Marks wants to be knights, alright, so now you have your personal heroic presence

That would be far, far better than now at least.

Originally Posted by Anpu

i have no problem with petless hunters, they are far more easier than hunter with pet.

Marksmen are a little easier with a pet than without.

[Valorius]

Originally Posted by Solarus

Just an example today: Wudy and I took out (just us two) a warlock, two marks, and a hunter all lvl 47+. We did it cause we are faster....and pets make a difference.

Just tonight.

3 Ignis vs Me.

[makarios68]

Originally Posted by Valorius

I lvl 51 Orc does about 60dmg per attack to a buffed marksman. That's a lot?

As already said, orcs are not the hardest hitting pet.

A troll or yeti on wrath hits harder.

And then there's the criticals...

[Anpu]

Wudy, or any hunter with pet, can you tell me if I concluded good, but those big trolls have a lot of hp, maybe more than any other pet?