Message to Frosk (And NGD)

Candyx · 12-02-2013, 10:03 AM

There's been a lot of talk about balance in the game recently. The new update change log seems to have a mini section devoted to it. So this is concerning that.

The title is because I'd like a clear, concise and well explained response from NGD, and Frosk seems the only one capable of this.

The main change in the balance section of the update is the mechanics by which mana communion and mana pylon work, specifically mana pylon. So first lets look at what this spell does.

For all allies in range of the mage they will have a magical barrier (equivalent to the mage's energy barrier). This will have a maximum value of 2500hp. This is about equal to 3 to 4 hits from a OP archer or 1-2 hit from most (lvl 60) barbs. At the newly designated amount of barrier points per level it'll take 50 seconds for the barrier to fully form around the allies. That's the best case scenario. Usually the full 50 seconds wont get stacked because the enemy will arrive, rush and force the mages to retreat, causing the allies to leave the area of the spell.

So in the scenario where the barrier is cast and then the enemy rushes in less than 50 seconds there's a reduced barrier available. The increase of this barrier during a battle is almost negligible, since most barbs and archers attack damage ranges by more than 50 points, and most attacks are of the order of once per second.

The rational for changing the way the aura spells work from stacking to non stacking was (as far as I'm aware) damage of time (DOT) spells became redundant since the pylon replenished faster than the DOTs effected it. But this is only the case because of the cap on the maximum HP of the barrier, and when the barrier is at it's maximum HP. When the barrier is not at it's maximum points it will be increasing by some value (let's call it 'x') per second. If the DOTs do damage by some other value (let's make this one 'y') then the rate of increase of the barrier hp is reduced (from x to (x-y)). A clear and calculable effect.

So then the question becomes which is more likely, a full (2500 points) barrier or a partially full barrier. In a battle lasting more than a few seconds it's almost certainly the latter. Any battle lasting anywhere near the 60 seconds of the mana pylon spell duration is likely to have incurred reasonable damage on both side.

Also bear in mind that there was still a maximum barrier creation rate. If upto 4 mana pylons could be stacked then it's simple 4x50 (originally 4x30).

So now to what I want details about:

Firstly, why did this relatively minor game mechanic get an overhaul when there is so much more wrong with the game that many more people are upset about.

Secondly, why do you think you should weaken spells that lessen the damage of ridiculously over powered barbs and archers. I'm thinking more of the barbs now to be honest. Hits of over 3000hp are just a joke. Maybe the DOTs require some change, but does this have to be the change?

Thirdly, did you do any sort of calculation as to the possible effect of this on the game dynamics? I'm not talking anything really complicated, maybe a couple of hundred monte carlo simulations? What were the parameters and what were the results?

Finally, keep up the progressive updates! I know I'm complaining about this part of this update, but I'd rather have this update than no update. Just keep reading the forums and fixing the bugs!

Rant over. Troll away!

ieti · 12-02-2013, 11:48 AM

Stacking pylons was way over the top. I have seen how enemy with several pylon conjus can make so strong stack that an old barb area rushes can not break. Pylon stack can accumulate enormous amounts of damage. Well this is not so frequent to see now coz old area rush times are long gone.

Before this change pylnos stacked 120 per second for max 2500, so to regen full it will take 20 seconds. You can not dish this damage again so fast, so whole party is nearly immune.

Removing the staking on pylons is good and forces ppl to play smarter and do not rely so much to this overpowered stuff.

Well mana comm is badly hurt by this - it can be made 30 tick / 30 sec to cope the removal of stacking.

--

I can only say keep balancing NGD! Please do continue like this for whole year and more!

Frosk · 12-02-2013, 05:40 PM

Hi there!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Candyx

So now to what I want details about:

Firstly, why did this relatively minor game mechanic get an overhaul when there is so much more wrong with the game that many more people are upset about.

It's a fine question. This bug may seem to be a minor issue at first, but if we look it from another angle, it tends to escalate to the point in which a solution was needed as soon as possible.
You guys know that we're aiming towards the acclaimed balance, but before we can get our hands on it, we needed to fix this functionality bug that was affecting several powers (Mana Pylon included).

Therefore, we're firstly looking after fixing these kind of issues that, even though they don't look THAT important, when it comes to analyze and study gameplay balance they make things get a bit messy.
Since there's no real point in balancing over broken bug-including features, we need to firstly fix these and then move on on tweaking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Candyx

Secondly, why do you think you should weaken spells that lessen the damage of ridiculously over powered barbs and archers. I'm thinking more of the barbs now to be honest. Hits of over 3000hp are just a joke. Maybe the DOTs require some change, but does this have to be the change?

Well, this was no balance tweaking. It was a fix that affected game balance. We're becoming aware of the newer -but not really unexpected (I'll answer this on your third question)- situations that are arising as a result of this issue being solved.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Candyx

Thirdly, did you do any sort of calculation as to the possible effect of this on the game dynamics? I'm not talking anything really complicated, maybe a couple of hundred monte carlo simulations? What were the parameters and what were the results?

Yes. We were aware of the possible impact it may have, as they're logical. Both RvR and PvE (specially boss battles, such as Dragons) aspects of the game were included when evaluating the possible outcome of such fixes.
Nevertheless, we considered that fixing this was of great priority, as later on we could tweak and re-balance other powers on a real situation, and not one that was the result of a bug affecting 2 of the most important auras in any gameplay situation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Candyx

Finally, keep up the progressive updates! I know I'm complaining about this part of this update, but I'd rather have this update than no update. Just keep reading the forums and fixing the bugs!

Rant over. Troll away!

Thank you for this thread! I hope this was useful for you!

Best,

12-02-2013, 10:03 AM	#1
Candyx Initiate Join Date: May 2013 Posts: 171	Message to Frosk (And NGD) There's been a lot of talk about balance in the game recently. The new update change log seems to have a mini section devoted to it. So this is concerning that. The title is because I'd like a clear, concise and well explained response from NGD, and Frosk seems the only one capable of this. The main change in the balance section of the update is the mechanics by which mana communion and mana pylon work, specifically mana pylon. So first lets look at what this spell does. For all allies in range of the mage they will have a magical barrier (equivalent to the mage's energy barrier). This will have a maximum value of 2500hp. This is about equal to 3 to 4 hits from a OP archer or 1-2 hit from most (lvl 60) barbs. At the newly designated amount of barrier points per level it'll take 50 seconds for the barrier to fully form around the allies. That's the best case scenario. Usually the full 50 seconds wont get stacked because the enemy will arrive, rush and force the mages to retreat, causing the allies to leave the area of the spell. So in the scenario where the barrier is cast and then the enemy rushes in less than 50 seconds there's a reduced barrier available. The increase of this barrier during a battle is almost negligible, since most barbs and archers attack damage ranges by more than 50 points, and most attacks are of the order of once per second. The rational for changing the way the aura spells work from stacking to non stacking was (as far as I'm aware) damage of time (DOT) spells became redundant since the pylon replenished faster than the DOTs effected it. But this is only the case because of the cap on the maximum HP of the barrier, and when the barrier is at it's maximum HP. When the barrier is not at it's maximum points it will be increasing by some value (let's call it 'x') per second. If the DOTs do damage by some other value (let's make this one 'y') then the rate of increase of the barrier hp is reduced (from x to (x-y)). A clear and calculable effect. So then the question becomes which is more likely, a full (2500 points) barrier or a partially full barrier. In a battle lasting more than a few seconds it's almost certainly the latter. Any battle lasting anywhere near the 60 seconds of the mana pylon spell duration is likely to have incurred reasonable damage on both side. Also bear in mind that there was still a maximum barrier creation rate. If upto 4 mana pylons could be stacked then it's simple 4x50 (originally 4x30). So now to what I want details about: Firstly, why did this relatively minor game mechanic get an overhaul when there is so much more wrong with the game that many more people are upset about. Secondly, why do you think you should weaken spells that lessen the damage of ridiculously over powered barbs and archers. I'm thinking more of the barbs now to be honest. Hits of over 3000hp are just a joke. Maybe the DOTs require some change, but does this have to be the change? Thirdly, did you do any sort of calculation as to the possible effect of this on the game dynamics? I'm not talking anything really complicated, maybe a couple of hundred monte carlo simulations? What were the parameters and what were the results? Finally, keep up the progressive updates! I know I'm complaining about this part of this update, but I'd rather have this update than no update. Just keep reading the forums and fixing the bugs! Rant over. Troll away! __________________ I don't need an introduction.

12-02-2013, 11:48 AM	#2
ieti Count Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Sofia, Bulgaria Posts: 1,374	Stacking pylons was way over the top. I have seen how enemy with several pylon conjus can make so strong stack that an old barb area rushes can not break. Pylon stack can accumulate enormous amounts of damage. Well this is not so frequent to see now coz old area rush times are long gone. Before this change pylnos stacked 120 per second for max 2500, so to regen full it will take 20 seconds. You can not dish this damage again so fast, so whole party is nearly immune. Removing the staking on pylons is good and forces ppl to play smarter and do not rely so much to this overpowered stuff. Well mana comm is badly hurt by this - it can be made 30 tick / 30 sec to cope the removal of stacking. -- I can only say keep balancing NGD! Please do continue like this for whole year and more! __________________ RA \| Ignis \| Lilla My \| Conjurer \| EVIL IGNIS ROCK Horus \| Syrtis \| ieti \| Conjurer \| INQUISITION \| LONG GONE