Tactical implications of archer weapon trails

linearguild · 07-11-2010, 02:58 PM

So NGD implemented archer weapon trails on Amun, and I'm not sure I like the impact of this feature on archer gameplay when it goes live.

I have nothing against the weapon trails for warriors, since they attack at melee range and so the trails are purely visual. You don't learn anything from seeing them, except maybe that the color shows what type of gem is in the weapon slot. However, weapon trails for archers give away two important facts: (1) the location of the archer and (2) the person under fire, destroying much of the advantage of clever positioning and removing all surprise in ranged attacks.

NGD, is this the dynamic that you want? Is this change deliberate, or simply nobody looked at archer weapon trails beyond the visual eye candy aspect?

UmarilsStillHere · 07-11-2010, 03:05 PM

I agree that they will give an advantage to people who have trails turned on, but I dont think its game breaking. You can already tell whos being shot if see their health move or the impact animation when the hit lands, this will just also show who is shooting who a bit more.

I agree that it will be easier to see the direction you are attacked from, but a quick spin of the camera can show this too so I dont think you would be at to much of a disadvantage with the trails off.

Its already clear what direction a warrior or mage (in most cases) it hitting you from, so I dont think it will be a huge disadvantage to archers to ne the same.

Lastly dont people with high graphic abilitys already have an advantage? Without partical effects you cannot see important buffs such as Ao1 or Strategic, and someone with 60fps will be able to play far better than someone with 6.

Note: On a pure graphical note when you shoot flying creatures such as wasps the trail will always end on the ground below the mob, making it appear that you missed, only minor but if NGD want to do this it should be fixed. I also guess the trails will be effected by certain great gems in the same way was warrior trails? I would like the trails to be shorter, no more than a couple of meters at any one time, a trail from the bow to its target 30+ meters away looks strange.

Zas_ · 07-11-2010, 03:29 PM

I tested it on Amun:
- arrow trails are too visible to me
- sound is inapropriate on most living targets

In big battles it will clutter the scene even more, and reduce fps, so it will be optionnal (hopefully), tactically it will make archers easy to locate.

So it will prevent some interesting situations:
- firing from tower, in a captured fort
- firing from behind an obstacle (tree, rock, fort, ...) without being noticed immediatly
- instantly identify the target of many archers

I tend to agree with Xia, RO is a war game, once more such change will reduce the field of possibilities.

What is the point ?

Zas_ · 07-11-2010, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Umaril

Its already clear what direction a warrior or mage (in most cases) it hitting you from,

This is true for normal attacks only.

UmarilsStillHere · 07-11-2010, 03:35 PM

Well you can see where a fireball (or similar) is coming from and if a warrior is dancing on your face its pretty clear hes hitting you

I do agree that the trails are to visable, they should be more translucent and preferably more like staff shots where they leave a 'fade' just behind them instead of tracing all the way to the attacker. As they are now I agree with several archers on both sides the place would be a mess of trails.

They are not really needed, but so long as they dont offer a huge tactical advantage (and with changes suggested so far I dont think they will) since NGD already made them they may as well see how the community reacts to them on the live servers in real war situations.

tjanex · 07-11-2010, 04:45 PM

If they put it in why stay the trails 20 secs? why not just 1 sec... would be nicer otherwise at big wars you will see 1000 of trails...

NotScias · 07-11-2010, 07:52 PM

Well the trails are still bugged I think, esp. the blunt and ice ones that stay in air almost indefinely...

Well I think it's a good move, to be able to see immediately what archer is shooting you, but Imo the trails are way too visible. I don't know if you saw yet the fire/lightning ones but it looks more like the archer is shooting you using a sort of super laser from Unreal Tournament...

ncvr · 07-12-2010, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Umaril

I agree that they will give an advantage to people who have trails turned on, but I dont think its game breaking. You can already tell whos being shot if see their health move or the impact animation when the hit lands, this will just also show who is shooting who a bit more.

It's not so much that you can tell whether or not someone is being shot, but that you can tell from which direction the shot is coming from. There is a very clear difference between attacks which do give away your location, and those which don't. For example - I'm a warlock from Alsius. Syrtis has Menirah. I run and hide in the ditch near Menirah fort, within attacking range of the enemy, but out of visual range of them. A lot of warlock spells don't give away our location - terror, golem fist, lightning, stalagmite, mana burn, etc. So, I manage to make careful use of those spells to deal damage without Syrtis figuring out where I'm attacking from. It's the same case for archers - normal hits and some spells, at least. But with arrow trails, all that goes away.

Kyrottimus · 07-12-2010, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Necrovarus

It's not so much that you can tell whether or not someone is being shot, but that you can tell from which direction the shot is coming from. There is a very clear difference between attacks which do give away your location, and those which don't. For example - I'm a warlock from Alsius. Syrtis has Menirah. I run and hide in the ditch near Menirah fort, within attacking range of the enemy, but out of visual range of them. A lot of warlock spells don't give away our location - terror, golem fist, lightning, stalagmite, mana burn, etc. So, I manage to make careful use of those spells to deal damage without Syrtis figuring out where I'm attacking from. It's the same case for archers - normal hits and some spells, at least. But with arrow trails, all that goes away.

If warriors don't get the luxury of anonymous attack locations, I don't mages and archers should.

Anyone who's shot a bow (or seen the Archer's Paradox) can see the arrow in flight. That much is a nice addition to simulate.

As far as mages, well, they're slow. The fact that archers have high-speed and evasion for escaping means that invisible arrows are a bit too much of an advantage to them IMO.

tjanex · 07-12-2010, 04:06 PM

And they die quick especially hunters... I think they are good but they need more Regnum and less time duration just 1 second you see a normal arrow only fly a second than it reached target you can't see his trail 20 seconds...

07-11-2010, 02:58 PM	#1
linearguild Initiate Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Spawned at save Posts: 198	Tactical implications of archer weapon trails So NGD implemented archer weapon trails on Amun, and I'm not sure I like the impact of this feature on archer gameplay when it goes live. I have nothing against the weapon trails for warriors, since they attack at melee range and so the trails are purely visual. You don't learn anything from seeing them, except maybe that the color shows what type of gem is in the weapon slot. However, weapon trails for archers give away two important facts: (1) the location of the archer and (2) the person under fire, destroying much of the advantage of clever positioning and removing all surprise in ranged attacks. NGD, is this the dynamic that you want? Is this change deliberate, or simply nobody looked at archer weapon trails beyond the visual eye candy aspect? __________________ Xia - Marksman · Saiph - Warlock · Amaron - Conjurer A proud member of I N Q U I S I T I O N

07-11-2010, 03:05 PM	#2
UmarilsStillHere Marquis Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: England Posts: 2,419	I agree that they will give an advantage to people who have trails turned on, but I dont think its game breaking. You can already tell whos being shot if see their health move or the impact animation when the hit lands, this will just also show who is shooting who a bit more. I agree that it will be easier to see the direction you are attacked from, but a quick spin of the camera can show this too so I dont think you would be at to much of a disadvantage with the trails off. Its already clear what direction a warrior or mage (in most cases) it hitting you from, so I dont think it will be a huge disadvantage to archers to ne the same. Lastly dont people with high graphic abilitys already have an advantage? Without partical effects you cannot see important buffs such as Ao1 or Strategic, and someone with 60fps will be able to play far better than someone with 6. Note: On a pure graphical note when you shoot flying creatures such as wasps the trail will always end on the ground below the mob, making it appear that you missed, only minor but if NGD want to do this it should be fixed. I also guess the trails will be effected by certain great gems in the same way was warrior trails? I would like the trails to be shorter, no more than a couple of meters at any one time, a trail from the bow to its target 30+ meters away looks strange. __________________ Faith 50 Barb Faithless 50 Lock Umaril 45 Conju Kailas 45 Marks Pel 45 Knight I N Q U I S I T I O N Last edited by Umaril; 07-11-2010 at 03:22 PM.

07-11-2010, 03:29 PM	#3
Zas_ Count Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: France Posts: 1,024	I tested it on Amun: - arrow trails are too visible to me - sound is inapropriate on most living targets In big battles it will clutter the scene even more, and reduce fps, so it will be optionnal (hopefully), tactically it will make archers easy to locate. So it will prevent some interesting situations: - firing from tower, in a captured fort - firing from behind an obstacle (tree, rock, fort, ...) without being noticed immediatly - instantly identify the target of many archers I tend to agree with Xia, RO is a war game, once more such change will reduce the field of possibilities. What is the point ? __________________ Annavilya / War-Luck (Haven)

07-11-2010, 03:35 PM	#5
UmarilsStillHere Marquis Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: England Posts: 2,419	Well you can see where a fireball (or similar) is coming from and if a warrior is dancing on your face its pretty clear hes hitting you I do agree that the trails are to visable, they should be more translucent and preferably more like staff shots where they leave a 'fade' just behind them instead of tracing all the way to the attacker. As they are now I agree with several archers on both sides the place would be a mess of trails. They are not really needed, but so long as they dont offer a huge tactical advantage (and with changes suggested so far I dont think they will) since NGD already made them they may as well see how the community reacts to them on the live servers in real war situations. __________________ Faith 50 Barb Faithless 50 Lock Umaril 45 Conju Kailas 45 Marks Pel 45 Knight I N Q U I S I T I O N

07-11-2010, 07:52 PM	#7
NotScias Baron Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: /dev/null Posts: 766	Well the trails are still bugged I think, esp. the blunt and ice ones that stay in air almost indefinely... Well I think it's a good move, to be able to see immediately what archer is shooting you, but Imo the trails are way too visible. I don't know if you saw yet the fire/lightning ones but it looks more like the archer is shooting you using a sort of super laser from Unreal Tournament... __________________ 天 The other realm awaits... Now playing much better games

07-11-2010, 04:45 PM	#6
tjanex Banned Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: The Netherlands 8-D Posts: 653	If they put it in why stay the trails 20 secs? why not just 1 sec... would be nicer otherwise at big wars you will see 1000 of trails...

07-12-2010, 04:06 PM	#10
tjanex Banned Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: The Netherlands 8-D Posts: 653	And they die quick especially hunters... I think they are good but they need more Regnum and less time duration just 1 second you see a normal arrow only fly a second than it reached target you can't see his trail 20 seconds...