Balance Update 2011 - Stage 1 - Initial Discussion

[VeterKh]

Originally Posted by chilko

Balance Update: Crowd Controls

Clase: Archer (Hunters and Marksmen)

The tactical situation between Archers and Warriors should play around the difference of range. In normal conditions a warrior that reaches melee range should have a positional advantage.
Because of the different CCs and “counter damage” available in the “Tricks” discipline This theoretical situation does not happen as often as we would like.
The following changes will be introduced with the intention of revert this. siguientes cambios serán introducidos con la intención de revertir la situación mencionada.

• Ambush: The range of this spell will be reduced to melee range. This will allow archers to have a CC suited for melee classes (so to gain range for a brief period of time) but not against other ranged classes.
• Stunning Fist: the effect “Cannot attack” will be replaced either by “Stun” or “cannot cast” (please let us know what you think)

not for hunter ... hunter dont have same dmg like marksman

for all other - sounds good!

[tjanex]

Meeeh I give up playing Hunter like this... When does NGD opens his eyes and sees Hunters need some balance as well... Nerfing our pets was fine, I aggreed with that, but nerfing camo (no pets in camo), nerfing mobillity, nerfing passive speed, nerfing dmg, nerfing ambush now...

Do you see a 80kg dude with a sword as long as himself running after a 60kg weighting guy with a little bow with almost 0 armor and catch him up? Nah me neither...

[Seher]

Jeez... Balance updates now shouldn't be about overpowered and underpowered classes. There are still far too many conceptual problems that require radical fixes! And those fixes would, obviously, cause a nice chaos again. There's just not the time for small steps now, every real fix will nullify them anyway.

Just to mention one of those problems:

Originally Posted by bois

Ah well , shared tree disease strikes again.

And another one is - oh surprise - CCs. An 8 seconds knockdown, even a 5 seconds one, is always overpowered. Not when the old movement system was still there, but now, with the increase of mobility and speed, it certainly is.

(Or hunters... they still lack a definition what they should actually be, there's no way you can balance that with small steps. Or the balance problem with spells, level 37 mages deal just as much damage as level 60 ones. Or... The list seems endless, small steps?! Wtf?)

[Topogigio_BR]

Originally Posted by no-body

I think you are forgetting that hunter is defensive class - he shouldn't aim to kill a prepared barb (unless it's low lvl / very easy or unchallenging :P). His best weapon is surprise attack from camo (kill grinders using ambush, dual shot/shield piercing, and ensnaring arrow, etc.).

If hunters shouldn't aim to kill, they should aim to scape(run), but now, and even worst with new changes, they are not able to do any of this.

[bois]

Originally Posted by Seher

Jeez... Balance updates now shouldn't be about overpowered and underpowered classes. There are still far too many conceptual problems that require radical fixes! And those fixes would, obviously, cause a nice chaos again. There's just not the time for small steps now, every real fix will nullify them anyway.

Just to mention one of those problems:


And another one is - oh surprise - CCs. An 8 seconds knockdown, even a 5 seconds one, is always overpowered. Not when the old movement system was still there, but now, with the increase of mobility and speed, it certainly is.

(Or hunters... they still lack a definition what they should actually be, there's no way you can balance that with small steps. Or the balance problem with spells, level 37 mages deal just as much damage as level 60 ones. Or... The list seems endless, small steps?! Wtf?)

Of course I agree with you 100%. Does NGD have the belly for such changes? Or is the handyman secret weapon the 'duct tape ' fix. Knock is a serious problem . Actually, the gradually increasing duration system on ALL CC effects is the problem. That system of 1,2,3,4,5 duration will have to be scrapped. I consider it to be a conceptual problem.

I thought about your ideas Seher, and a fixed duration knock is probably the most valuable and ingenious idea I have ever seen regarding this CC. Two or 3 seconds no matter the level and another component be it damage or debuff (varies with class) to partner it. That has to be the best solution. It is probably the only solution.The game has reached the point where we do not need long duration, all in one KO crowd controls.
Why try to force and balance durations when other components would be easier to scale? If this is done then skill setup, experience, armour, weapons and tactics will be more important that who can hit their cc chain first. In that way CC will not mark your grave stone.

I don't know if others see it yet but NGD is actually making SLOW the next OP and ridiculously irritating/frustrating CC. It is already borderline and any new moves will push it over the fence. I am sure most of you see it already. Slow will take the number 1 slot on the hate list of CC soon enough if they keep this direction.

We shall see how they go. NGD I suggest you take a good few months to finish these balance rounds. It is that important to the game going forward.

[UmarilsStillHere]

Originally Posted by no-body

kill grinders using ambush, dual shot/shield piercing, and ensnaring arrow, etc.

Wow those are some mighty spells right there! And killing grinders is mega fun, particularly all those grinders in the middle of fort wars, nice to see hunters have a place in the games central feature

I don't have a hunter, and I've suffered under several iterations of hunters when they were at assorted levels of overpoweredness. But right now its a busted class.

They are defensive? Marks have higher armour and better damage prevention spells. Most of the hunters CC/debuff ability's are in tricks, and thus shared with marksmen.
They are offensive? What hunter wouldn't swap 'dual shot/shield piercing (shared spells in separate trees!!), and ensnaring arrow' for Ethereal Arrow, Serpent Bite, and Winter Stroke?

It's flailing in the middle with little to no purpose. And need a redefinition or at least drastic refinement of their role. No one wants to grind a hunter to 60 and find all its good for is killing low-hp grinders in 3 shots or running away from people.

[Topogigio_BR]

Originally Posted by Droc

I see a lot of bias based on what class people play most. Please try to stay unbiased in suggestions.

I try not to be biased. But the way many ppl seems to think is to turn game in just who do more damage. Making a game only for knights and barbs.

Ranged classes need ccs to keep warriors away, or they need an incredible boost in damage to compete with warriors damage. For ranges to keep distance CC's in that classes need to be in more variety and more strong than warriors one (more time). Maybe knocks are really strong, cannot cast are really strong for mages too, so i think rangers should have strong stunt, immobilize, freeze, slow and cannot attack CC's. Specially strong freeze and stunt, cos the way they work makes it impossible to do a second attack while they effects are on, turning into REAL making distance spells.

Instead of making all this changes, why not just switch places, cooldown, and casting time betwen dist. shot and ambush. So ambush will be a lvl17 spell with 60 sec cooldown and 1 sec casting time.

Same way i would trade rigourous preparation or challenging for feint.

will domain goes to splinter wall position while splinter wall goes to lock elemental tree and freezy goes to lvl11 mental tree.

Just changing places, cooldown and casting time would be enough to do a lot of changes in CC's spells.

[Minorian]

Originally Posted by Umaril

They are offensive? What hunter wouldn't swap 'dual shot/shield piercing (shared spells in separate trees!!), and ensnaring arrow' for Ethereal Arrow, Serpent Bite, and Winter Stroke?

I, as a marksmen, would trade Ethereal and Serpent for Ens alone, although I might be unwilling to give away Winter Stroke

[VeterKh]

Originally Posted by no-body

I think you are forgetting that hunter is defensive class - he shouldn't aim to kill a prepared barb (unless it's low lvl / very easy or unchallenging :P). His best weapon is surprise attack from camo (kill grinders using ambush, dual shot/shield piercing, and ensnaring arrow, etc.).
blablabla

and you never will see, i said NEVER, hunter in battle near you ... same Dying out kind "Conjurer"... you will never hunt with hunter...

i'm playing barbarian and hunter.... barbarian changes - good, for hunter - very bad...

[Daretobeconju]

I think this is what everyone has complained about and what NGD is trying to fix:

Barb: UM/Spring, Kick/Feint, and opponent dead.
Lock: Meteor, Slow(if warrior), DoT DoT, Will Domain, DoT Dot, Frozen Storm or Freeze or Mind Push, get distance, Will Domain, DoT Dot, etc. Opponent is dead.
Marks: BoW, hit hit, Ambush, hit hit, freeze, runs to get range, rinse and repeat. Opponent dies.

With new proposed changes all offensive classes lose their guaranteed win combos. That is a plus, but the down sides to the changes create other issues for other classes.

I agree with Barb proposal overall. Now they have to work harder to get the kill. I think the ranged slow does not make them OP because even if they get to you, they are not ensured the kill because they cannot chain cc as well. They still retain melee range advantage.

I think there are enough counters to Lock cc's that if a Lock other than Heph is killing you consistently, you are unlucky or have bad timing:
With barb, UM counters Meteor and Spring almost counters slow(-5%). You can cover the 30m distance from Meteor range with UM/Spring with only 10% chance of being cc'd. Counter Mind Push with Deafening Roar and you have all the time in the world to buff and get behind the lock for huge dmg before you kick. Then kick and be done with them. This is not a guaranteed barb win as the lock can create more distance by strafing and try to outlast your UM, but with the addition of a ranged slow for barb, it makes for a better fight.
A Marks has SotW, so they can resist lock cc's for a longer duration while casting their own.
I still don't think Will Domain should change at all. Nobody dies in 8 seconds from a lock.

Removing dmg from BoW seems like a winner. As Marks, it isn't the dmg that I cast it for, its the 11 sec dizzy. I agree Marks need to lose the Ambush, but I don't think Hunters should. I still think switch Ambush with Ensnaring Arrow and nerf Ensnaring. That way Hunter still has the full knock. It allows Marks a chance to keep their much needed distance, but does not prevent barbs from using Spring to counter. It even allows a Lock the chance to rush during BoW. If Lock charges, 11 sec BoW gets followed by only 6 sec Winter Stroke, and the Marks has to make sure they are more than 30m from Lock to keep their advantage.

Hunters need ambush and stunning fist. It is the basis for all attacks from hunter. Ambush/Confuse/Hit Hit/Stunning Fist/Cold Blood, or something like that. If a Hunter cannot come out of camo and kill an unbuffed person, they have less purpose. They certainly don't have any adVantage in an open field against someone who is buffed.
Keep Ambush and Stunning Fist as they are, just move Ambush to Ensnaring Arrow position.

I play conju 60/lock 60/barb 44 and have played my gf's marks 60/hunter 60. The only class I know little about it knight, but nothing here seems to benefit/harm knight. With these slight alterations, I believe every class keeps its own advantages, but with skill, any other class can get past them(*exception conju).

I see no reason to complain if you die because 2 or more people kill you during a knock. 2 or more vs 1 would have killed you regardless.