Creepy O.o

[ArcticWolf]

Originally Posted by Hell_bound

In a way I agree with you Xeph, for it's true the feeling of "suffering" stems from an internal source...

This internal source stems from man's lack of knowledge about the causations that occur around him (his external world, which is affected by his actions or his internal world, which is affected by the external world); thus the attribution of "suffering" comes from man trying to make sense of things that go wrong in her/his life, but is unable to make sense of it...

You would agree that man is an interesting creature, would you not Xeph?

For man, above all creatures on this earth, has an ability to reason which allows him to use abstract concepts to solve problems, to organize data, to travel space, to code all that is living or created into zeros and ones...

In a way, this ability of man is the ability to look at a mountain and while looking at it, he not only wills the mountain to move, but actually makes the mountain move...

And man does this mostly through pure reason now, for technology and the brains behind it have surpassed man's brute strength...

.'.

Yes, humans are interesting. We're different from other animals since we can see the world through abstract concepts, indeed. We're not the only ones who can do it, but humans are top in the list.

We have learned to harness the power of thinking over the brute force. The laws of nature are like a clockwork machine, and humans know how that machine works, at least in part. This knowledge about the world is what made us what we're now, a flourishing (and potentially dangerous) race.

You stated some time ago that the main drive to human behaviour is impelled by lack. The pain is caused by the lack of awareness on the events that occurs in his environment, and hence it is reflected through suffering.

Originally Posted by Hell_bound

Yet there is something that lies beyond man's reasoning powers, and his brute strength...

A place that does not lie within this world of flesh...
A world that most of us visit in our dreams, or altered states of consciousness...
A world that, at times, impresses on us and a "gut feeling" arises, a premonition...

During those times, and yes there are many that have had this happen too - far to much to ignore such data, man cannot explain what was witnessed...

Current models of science cannot explain it, so what is man to do?

The scientist says, "in these cases of unexplained phenomena man creates religion" ...

The religious say, "in these cases of unexplained phenomena man creates science to explain that which he does not understand about god" ...

And so it goes... on and on... on and on... and on till man will no longer exist...

.'.

It is our nature to reason everything, to find an action~reaction pair. We look for patterns, we need them to compress and cataloge all the information we can have about the world. This is because our brain has limits like every biological machine.

Sometimes this fails. We can't find a pattern that's logical enough, or we can't gather the information we need... Those undeniable facts that cannot be explained do have a reason, so humans build up a world where everything fits perfectly. We can do it because the world is, indeed, an abstract concept to us.

This is the Human condition. Our world is just a thought, an idea, and it is shaped by experience. This experience is previously "distorted"[1] by the delicate balance between our animal part (feelings) and logic. This is what makes us so unique and different between us.

[1] I can't find a better word, but it's not exactly what I mean.

Originally Posted by Hell_bound

The truth is science alone cannot explain everything, nor can religion alone...

It's my belief that humanity needs both...

For with both man's need to explain will be more successful then with just one option alone...

We will never be able to know it all, but we need to fill those gaps with something. Religion is, in my opinion, a temporal "best bower" which helps us to sleep at night without worrying about those voids in knowledge.

Originally Posted by Hell_bound

But let me state this one final belief...

Technology has helped man much throughout the centuries, but man has been perverted by it...

The perversion starts when man placed himself at the center of the universe and thought that natural law does not apply to him...

Man in his quest to unravel the mysteries of god has forgotten his place...

And because of this technology, especially modern technology (think zeros and ones), man has built himself a new Tower of Babel...

If only man would have learned from his last endeavor of such a feat...

This song seems to fit perfectly with the topic:

Originally Posted by Age Of Shadows - Ayreon

Tom:
We never saw this coming
Pride comes before our fall
We never heeded the warning
Buried deep within us all

Steve: (Daniel)
The age of shadows has begun
(Giant machines blot out the sun)
Frozen lands becoming known
(The age of shadows has begun)
The age of shadows has begun
(I won't accept what we've become)
We stand to lose more than we've won
(The age of shadows has begun)

Tom:
Our quenchless thirst for knowledge
Our urge to change and grow
Our need to extermination
Made us rise from the depths below

Steve: (Daniel)
The age of shadows has begun
(Giant machines blot out the sun)
Frozen lands becoming known
(The age of shadows has begun)
The age of shadows has begun
(I won't accept what we've become)
We stand to lose more than we've won
(The age of shadows has begun)

Hansi: (Floor)
No more repression
(No more initiative)
No more suppression
(No more emotions)
No more recession
(No more of all the feelings we shared that made us who we really are)
No more possession
(No more euphoria)
No more obsessions
(No more sensations)
No more depression
(No more of all the passions we shaped our hearts and made us who we really are)

(Jonas)
Time...
but a passageway
The beginning of the end
an end that never was

Time...
but a curve a space

We are forever
Eternal prisoners in time
Oh, we are forever
caught in our cold inertia

Longing, hoping, waiting
For nothing

(Anneke)
Forever we are
Forever we learn
Forever we live a lie
Forever slipping by and
Forever we flee
Forever we will be
Forever is but a dream
Forever is but a scream and
Forever we try
Forever we die

The spell of love wore off
The zest for life not enough

Longing, hoping, waiting
Never enough...

01101000
01100101
01101100
01110000

off on on off off on on off
off on on off on on on on
off on on on off off on off
off on on off off on off on
off on on on off on on off
off on on off off on on off
off on on on off off on off

no yes yes yes no no yes
no yes yes no yes yes yes yes
no yes yes yes no no yes yes

(Forever we try)
(Forever we die)
(Forever...)

Longing, hoping, waiting
For no one...

Hansi: (Floor)
No more repression
(No more initiative)
No more suppression
(No more emotions)
No more recession
(No more of all the feelings we shared that made us who we really are)
No more possession
(No more euphoria)
No more obsessions
(No more sensations)
No more depression
(No more of all the passions we shaped our hearts and made us who we really are)

Steve: (Daniel)
The age of shadows has begun
(Giant machines blot out the sun)
Frozen lands becoming known
(The age of shadows has begun)
The age of shadows has begun
(I won't accept what we've become)
We stand to lose more than we've won
(The age of shadows has begun)
The age of shadows has begun
(Giant machines blot out the sun)
Frozen lands becoming known
(The age of shadows has begun)
The age of shadows has begun
(I won't accept what we've become)
We stand to lose more than we've won
(The age of shadows has begun)

Tom:
We never heeded the warning
Buried deep within us all

On a side note: When writing this post I've noticed it took me more time than usual. It seems I need more pratice.

[Hell_bound]

Ah my dear Xephandor, such beauty in your inward search to define reality; truly you are a man well on his way to change his environment, if not the world!

And it's true that you and I see life from almost the same perspective...

However, this:

Originally Posted by Xephandor

... Religion is, in my opinion, a temporal "best bower" which helps us to sleep at night without worrying about those voids in knowledge...

You should be cautioned about...

First of all, the idea of "Religion" is such a messy word and perhaps I shouldn't have used it in my reply to you; and its messy because "Religion" is hollow, for it only dictates absolutes... And absolutes stumps the spiritual growth of all that adhere to its ideas, at least in my opinion...

It is well accepted now, among social scientists, that "Religion" was the first monolithic concept ("characterized by massiveness, total uniformity, rigidity, invulnerability, etc.: a monolithic society"; dictionary.com) man created to create order out of chaos...

That is "Religion" was a monolithic concept that man used to define himself from others around him, the means by which man defined comrades, the means by which he defined social behavior, and the means by which man not only enslaved his enemy, but also how he exacted revenge upon his enemies as well (aka the rules of war)..

Thus "Religion" paved the way for the monolithic concept of national identity, laws, and government...

Therefore, since this is the case "Religion" does not reveal the mind of god...

It's just an evolutionary concept (evolutionary based on the fact of how man moved from hunter/gather tribes into more sophisticated communities, while increasing his brain size and need to acquire more and more resources; hence the evolution from "Religion" to government) about how man defines and justifies his behavior among those he called family, friends or citizens to those he called enemies...

.'.

Second, this statement:

Originally Posted by Xephandor

... Religion is, in my opinion, a temporal "best bower" which helps us to sleep at night without worrying about those voids in knowledge...

Reveals the dichotic nature between the observable world and the hidden world...

I know you probably saying to yourself, "hidden world, H_b you nut!"

But the truth is the evidence is already there for you to accept the existence of this "hidden world" and this evidence is called "intuition"...

Intuition has been called instinctive knowledge and that means knowledge that is gained through sensing without the use of the rational processes, through a sense of something not evident or deducible; hence, the "hidden world"...

Once you realize this about intuition you start to follow "hidden" patterns that occur through the same channels that your intuition signals through...

This, if you follow it, will lead you on a path to your own spirituality where literally the mind of god reveals itself...

And when this happens the world will look differently to you, humans will seem different to you, and you will seem different to yourself, but science, believe it or not, will become more important, though it too will seem different to you...

You will find that as you work on this path, that the scientific method becomes the aim of spirituality...

You search systems of thought that have built off of these patterns of intuition and soon you will come to find that from those systems you can build your own system...

And here you'll come to find that "those voids in knowledge" were just vails where behind them stood true knowledge...

But such a path cannot be told to you, for you must experience it and you must labor to create such patterns between your intuition, the path and the observable world...

Hence the vagueness in my speech, for your path is not mine and mine is not yours!

But the path, it's there for your taking if you wish...

.'.

Originally Posted by Xephandor

... This song seems to fit perfectly with the topic...

LOL, I see the path beckons you...

To be able to post a song that closely matches the one that I posted, and yet had in it zeros and ones, and talked about intuition ("We never heeded the warning Buried deep within us all")...

The truth, as I see it now Xeph, the path has called you and is calling you right now but something is stopping you...

What is it Xeph...

What is it...

And don't give me that nonsense about being a man of science that believes in no god, for one not need to believe in a god to be spiritual!

.'.

Btw, thanks for turning me on to Ayreon...

Love the concepts they use between albums to reveal the story about the Forevers trying to save humanity, and the Universal Migrator...

I see a parallel between Christian concepts and this message...

.'.

Disintegration of thought, I need sleep...

[kraetyz]

Originally Posted by Xephandor

Do you really know what you're saying? I'm afraid you're absolutely wrong.

Why would I not be wrong?
I am, after all, a troll. :P

[ArcticWolf]

Originally Posted by Hell_bound

You should be cautioned about...

First of all, the idea of "Religion" is such a messy word and perhaps I shouldn't have used it in my reply to you; and its messy because "Religion" is hollow, for it only dictates absolutes... And absolutes stumps the spiritual growth of all that adhere to its ideas, at least in my opinion...

It is well accepted now, among social scientists, that "Religion" was the first monolithic concept ("characterized by massiveness, total uniformity, rigidity, invulnerability, etc.: a monolithic society"; dictionary.com) man created to create order out of chaos...

All religions use a dogmatic principle as the root of their organized system of beliefs. They can't explain something, so they take an idea and base all the logic construct over it, assuming the core of the system is always true. The "Cogito ergo sum" that Descartes[1] theorized tried to give philosophy a fresh start by looking for a real truth and not just an assumption.

Religion does limit spiritual growth, but keeps society under control and tied toghether. Just look at how modern societies based the entire law system on the three major monotheistic religions, how religion affects what people say and think. It may limit our minds, but until we evolve it's our only failsafe system to prevent (at least to slow down) chaos, altoghether with law (the "religion of the non-believers"?).

[1](by the way, he developed the Cartesian coordinate system for mathematics, and he was a great philosopher)

Originally Posted by Hell_bound

Therefore, since this is the case "Religion" does not reveal the mind of god...

It's just an evolutionary concept (evolutionary based on the fact of how man moved from hunter/gather tribes into more sophisticated communities, while increasing his brain size and need to acquire more and more resources; hence the evolution from "Religion" to government) about how man defines and justifies his behavior among those he called family, friends or citizens to those he called enemies...

Zeitgeist has an interesting analysis on religion. I haven't seen the remastered version yet, but it should be like the original:
-Remastered: http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...H4_UqALXqdmhDA

Originally Posted by Hell_bound

Reveals the dichotic nature between the observable world and the hidden world...

I know you probably saying to yourself, "hidden world, H_b you nut!"

But the truth is the evidence is already there for you to accept the existence of this "hidden world" and this evidence is called "intuition"...

You may find this Slashdot article interesting: http://science.slashdot.org/article..../06/28/1148245

It's about intuition and how our brain seems to work. The comments are pretty interesting.

I'm quoting trolltalk.com:

[...]
This study doesn't bring anything new to the table - we've known for a LOOOONG time that what we perceive as "consciousness" is really more akin to a "ghost in the machine."

What is important, however, is that, despite all this, we can actually, with enough thought, make decisions based on logic, as opposed to "feelings" or "what we think is reasonable."

Most of what we do, we do on "autopilot", and our consciousness re-orders the stream of events so that we believe we "decided" to do what we did. Classic example - think of any time when you jammed on the brakes because of someone who rushed in front of the car ... and think back, and you'll realize that you already had braked before you even were aware of the person, because even the half-second lag between perception and stepping on the brake pedal would have been too long.

But there is an underlaying rational process in our decisions, in my opinion. Our consciousness is just a part of our "being", and it judges information, catalogues it and overrides that "autopilot" system trolltalk is talking about.

Some parts of our brain are hidden because what we feel as "conscious" is a piece of a bigger machine which is in charge of a very specific task. This is noticeable in computers[2], where an Operative System works in "layers" which do not know what's happening to the other parts of the System. They communicate, but don't know how they work.

In my opinion, the mind takes the input and process it before we are aware of what's happening outside. The "autopilot" uses this "virtual world". Then the information is re-interpeted and filtered out in a "lesser world" which the "consciousness" use.



[2](I think humans try to emulate their behaviour in everything they build, computers are just a mere copy of a functional algorithm our brain develops to solve a problem)

Originally Posted by Hell_bound

But the path, it's there for your taking if you wish...

I wouldn't want to waste such a chance.

Originally Posted by Hell_bound

The truth, as I see it now Xeph, the path has called you and is calling you right now but something is stopping you...

What is it Xeph...

What is it...

And don't give me that nonsense about being a man of science that believes in no god, for one not need to believe in a god to be spiritual!

There are some things happening in my life which need my attention, maybe those things are distracting me.

Originally Posted by Hell_bound

Btw, thanks for turning me on to Ayreon...

Love the concepts they use between albums to reveal the story about the Forevers trying to save humanity, and the Universal Migrator...

You're welcome. The Forevers made the same mistake with humanity as they did with themselves, so they're trying to save them because they feel that would be like redemption. Saving humanity would be like saving themselves.

[Angel_de_Combate]

wow you guys could go on and on...<reading right from the beginning>

[Angel_de_Combate]

Right i have a question...ive recently had some disturbing dreams..disturbing in the fact that..they were very lucid...and i experienced things that..well ive never encountered, but i cud describe them..as if id actually taken part in them. Now that brings me to this.. ive wondered about past life regression too..the reason that is, is because 1) because of the dreams and 2) ive researched my family history..and want to know now more about my previous lives history...is it possible to find answers to questions about how you act and think to certain situations by undergoing past life regression..or does the brain just make these experiences up ? I would like to know your views please H_B and Xeph XD

[ArcticWolf]

The only thing that comes to my mind now is that your brain has been creating those vivid dreams out of your experience in the "outer world". Due to our limited storage space on our brains, our mind classifies the information and sometimes emulates a theoretical situation to solve an unfinished problem...


That's what I think. I have absolutely NO conclusive information to back up that theory.

[Hell_bound]

First of all, I want to say sorry for my tardy reply but not only is my life busy right now, I also needed time to digest the movie and your response Xeph...

So with that...

Originally Posted by Xephandor

... Descartes... tried to give philosophy a fresh start by looking for a real truth and not just an assumption...

I find it ironic, that out of all the philosophers, you would pick Descartes...

You realize that Descartes would sit in an old boiler for hours (sometimes 16 hours at a crack), where it was pitch black and being so thick it was soundless, so as to devoid himself of all sensory input?

The same man, who being void of all sensory input, believed that because he thinks therefor he is...

Doesn't that seem like an odd way to arrive at truth Xeph?

Descartes assumed that man could escape from his surroundings by walking into a black hole, and while there all doubt would be erased...

And you state that this method allows man to arrive at real truth?

Surely you jest Xeph!

Truth is, Descartes feared what talks, screams to him from the inside - as he moved about in this world!

However, the most ironic part of all this, Xeph, is that you picked Descartes as proof of man's highest intellect, yet the man that you picked not only tried to kill his intuition (sitting in a boiler indeed) but failed in the process of killing it; for doubt (aka intuition) led Descartes to believe he truly existed...

Now knowing this, what should we say about his genius in mathematics?

He is like all men, men that cling onto this fallacious idea that man can solve the deepest mysteries through reason alone, but having already tainted his method by which he uses to arrive at truth (for he placed the mind of man at the center of the universe) he can only push the vail back so much...

Truth is he only manipulates the vail without moving it!

For all his genius he helped man do more harm with technology, science, math then good...

Why?

Because he led man to believe he needs not intuition nor a reliance on his senses!

Truth is man needs both objective and subjective reality to arrive at truth...

For example, pain is a rather subjective sensation, for some can take more pain then others, some can take less pain of a certain kind then others. Yet if I put a fire under your ass, will you not move?

The point is: Man needs his senses, which breeds intuition...

.'.

Originally Posted by Xephandor

... Zeitgeist has an interesting analysis on religion...

I watched this whole movie...

The intro talks about intuition, which I found interesting...

Interesting because, from what I can remember, the speaker did not seem to be against the idea of intuition...

And yet this seemed to be the case, because right after the section on religion was images of war machines going off to the sound of music...

This imagery was an assault on my senses that could only leave me in a state of awe (perhaps some it would have been fear)... and then my intuition starts to kick in...

.'.

As to the section of religion, well if you had studied occult literature Xeph you would realize that many have made similar parallels with the christian religion and others...

And the association with astrology... again its there in occult literature... though not as plain as what this movie shows...

However, about the idea that christ did not exist...

Well it's true that there has been no hardcore proof that christ existed, however, archaeologists did find evidence that Pontius Pilate did exist...

Originally Posted by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontius_Pilate

The first physical evidence relating to Pilate was discovered in 1961, when a block of black limestone was found in the Roman theatre at Caesarea Maritima, the capital of the province of Iudaea, bearing a damaged dedication by Pilate of a Tiberieum.[9] This dedication states that he was [...]ECTVS IUDA[...] (usually read as praefectus iudaeae), that is, prefect/governor of Iudaea. The early governors of Iudaea were of prefect rank, the later were of procurator rank, beginning with Cuspius Fadus in 44.

The inscription is currently housed in the Israel Museum in Jerusalem, where its Inventory number is AE 1963 no. 104. Dated to 26–37, it was discovered in Caesarea (Israel) by a group led by Antonio Frova.

.'.

As to the section on 9/11...

You might want to take a look at this documentary, The Power of Nightmares. It's in three parts:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...IZSw4QKQzJC-BQ

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...IZSw4QKQzJC-BQ

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...IZSw4QKQzJC-BQ

.'.

As to the section on the economy, look to this to understand the history of American economy and the plight that America now sees itself in and the options America has:

http://news.goldseek.com/GoldSeek/1137510262.php

Edit: It should be noted that this Bourse went through last year, I believe February '07

.'.

However, if you manage to get through all that I want to leave you with this one thought...

Man can be scientific, for man has created many scientific fields and man has also benefited from them all at one point or another...

Yet when man only relies on hardcore data and does not look inward, nor question what he does...

There is only one reality that man will face...

And that is war!

.'.

Edit2: Err, vail = veil - this is a message from friends who don't let friends post while sleepy

[ArcticWolf]

Hell_bound: I'm having 3 big exams this week, so I can't answer you right now. Sorry... But I promise I will do it later.

[Hell_bound]

Originally Posted by Xephandor

Hell_bound: I'm having 3 big exams this week, so I can't answer you right now. Sorry... But I promise I will do it later.

Fair enough...

I await your reply.