3 hit kill!!!

[Angelwinged_Devil]

Originally Posted by asdfghs

Wait... You say barbs are overpowered because you can't stop them and now you have a list of spells which you can use to stop them?! Something here seems wrong to me.

I said they hit too high... and that I know how to fight them

[backe]

Originally Posted by save_the_trees

I suddenly thought about a new way to go: instead of nerving barbs, give all warriors a cheap and long lasting buff which limits the damage taken per hit to for example 1000 or 1300 or whatever. This way, spells like SC would be still attractive but since you can't deal a 4k SC to a knight anymore, only barbs specialized in killing mages/archers would still continue to use berserk/colossus. But then they would be even weaker against other warriors since they would have neither high dmg nor tactical spells. Apart from that this measure would protect the barb vs very lucky Marksmen with lethal strike lv 5, something like 2k dmg from barely in sight range is really overpowered ...

I like this idea quite a lot. This would prevent knight damage from being reduced (yet again) while dramatically increasing their defenses against this sort of barb build. Perhaps it can replace martial defense. This and the proposed change to berserk would go a long way to balance the extreme damage we are seeing these days. I would say, that there are going to be issues with placing the upper-end of damage with this spell however. Perhaps it should be based on the lvl of the skill?

so lvl 1-5 2500,2200,1900,1600,1300? This could also benefit knights more than barbs, as they tend to put more points into the tactics skill tree.

[Miraculix]

Great, now barbs will deal 5k SC to everyone else but they themselves will be protected from it.

WTF ppl.

[backe]

Originally Posted by Miraculix

Great, now barbs will deal 5k SC to everyone else but they themselves will be protected from it.

WTF ppl.

Come on. 5k is a bit of an exaggeration. Besides, the point is that it reduces the utility of a pure SC build which will in turn reduce the number of SC monkeys. The bottom line is that warriors have no choice but to fight in close quarters and because of this don't you think they should have an advantage in such cases? What would you consider more appropriate; reducing barbs base attack power, nerfing Berserk and Colossus? Both of these would easily turn barbs into shield-less, taxi-driving knights without auras. The main problem with reducing the base damage of barbs is our attack speed is HORRIBLE, not to mention that barbs simply don't have the variety of weapon speeds that other classes have. You can be very slow, slow, or a half-assed "medium" if you choose to spend a bunch of points in 2handed to get thirst for blood to a high enough level to make a difference.

Also, the numbers I posted are just pulled out of thin air. I based it off the the level 3 1900 max damage figure, as 1900*2 (3800) is around the max life of a barb and most barbs usually run tactics at 11. I've never been killed in one hit, but in 2, plenty of times. Most of the really nasty SC's I've seen have been around 2.5k (this includes Yoseba's, I don't know if I caught him on a bad day, or if he had been debuffed). So the reality of it is, that at level 3 the addition of this skill really doesn't change much at all for barbs. Even at lvl 4, 2 SC's would still pretty much clean up a barb. The difference is that knights would have a much better chance of surviving if this skill were in place due to the increased quantity of hit points and the likelihood of blocking a 3rd or even 4th SC.

Any idea of these changes would, of course, be in no way shape or form a replacement to a nerf in the SC and ripost cool-down (which IMO is one of the most badly needed changes right now).

Edit:
Hell, maybe even replace this skill with one of the bugged ones in vanguard? Think thats been proposed before, but its still a good idea, IMO.

[Miraculix]

I never said reducing barb base attack was the way to go. I said SC-immunity to barbs is not the way to go.

Moving SC to a knight only tree and giving barbs some other spell like an attack speed bonus is imo a much better solution.

[backe]

Sorry mate, I still fail to see how this would be immunity.

The problem would then be that the slash skill-tree would be more or less useless. It already has a totally worthless dex passive, crash, fatal strike, and disable limb (which is nowhere near as useful as balestra, IMO, as it can be defeated by DI). If SC was moved to a knight tree would it also be weapon specific? Would you put it in vanguard? Besides, if you removed SC then you would begin to see ridiculous riposts as these SC-spec barbs would simply switch to pierce weapons.

[Pizdzius]

Originally Posted by Miraculix

I never said reducing barb base attack was the way to go. I said SC-immunity to barbs is not the way to go.

Moving SC to a knight only tree and giving barbs some other spell like an attack speed bonus is imo a much better solution.

There are SCknightonlybelievers and there are the others. XD

[Valorius]

Originally Posted by Katiechan

The problem is that Barbarians already die fast enough as it is (sometimes in just a few hits even to archers).

Simply not true. The only way a lvl 50 barb could be killed in a 'few' archer shots is if it was 3 rep shot lvl 5s.

Even a lvl 50 marksman requires numerous attacks and debuffs to kill a barb.

Originally Posted by Angelwinged_Devil

how do you know I haven't ^^?

Apparently you're the only hunter who seems to have trouble with this on these forums. But I'm going to backfire your argument against you, chased many hunters with your barb have you?

Yep. Bowvyn, Athena, and Albereth are 'my' barbs. I've chased barbs and hunters side by side with them many times. What's more, i know just from playing experience that it is much easier to catch a hunter than a barb.

I should arrange a straight up point A to B race with one of them just to settle this matter of which class is faster definitively.

Originally Posted by Necrovarus

Doesn't work that way.
First, the base armour is reduced to 0.
Next, 80% of the base armour is taken.
Last, whatever you came up with when you multiplied your base armour by 0.8 is added on.
So, for example, a barb has a base armour of 1000 (no, it's not going to happen, I chose 1000 cos its easy to do)
Cast Berserk and armour is reduced to 0.
Cast lvl 5 caution and the armour goes back up to 800.

Which means the actual effective penalty for casting berserk is quite minimal wrt armored protection.

Originally Posted by zielski

They need less defence from low dmg hits. Come on yesterday barb reduced my dmg from 280 to 62 from medium 20m bow. My dmg on Yoseba was like on knight or full defense marks ~48.

Yep, absolutely agreed.

Barbarian defense is far too much when weighed against the damage they can inflict. Especially considering their speed and potential 90% knockdown resist.

They should either do significantly less damage (the problem goes far beyond SC. 1100hp Mindsquashes, 1500hp lvl 1 ripostes, as high as 1500hp normal attacks...), or have significantly less damage resistance.

Originally Posted by Znurre

For everyone who wants to know reality... this is a screenshot taken yesterday near Trelle save.
Hunter, buffed up with acrobatics.
I can't see any normal hits for 1k here, can you?

That hunter may very well have had heroic presence, evasive tactics 5, acrobat 5, and material wall cast on him.

In fact he probably did.

Originally Posted by aardvak2669

Of course I am wrong, it's just my point of view
Still, a gutting lvl 1 shouldn't hit for over 1k. None lvl 1 skill should hit that high

Absolutely agreed.

Originally Posted by Znurre

The problem here is Berserk which enables the barbarian to reach such crazy hits, but also remember that a barbarian using Berserk is not hard to kill for an archer who is playing good.

Yeah, right....that same barb casts berserk in a battle and has knight blocking auras, heroic presence, and perhaps even material wall cast on him is a virtually invincible killing machine with 90% knockdown resist...even without DI.

Seriously...the problem with barbs goes far deeper than just SC.

[Znurre]

Originally Posted by Valorius

Which means the actual effective penalty for casting berserk is quite minimal wrt armored protection.

Yeah, 100% less armor than usual...
Would you not thing it was a big deal to have -20% armor instead of +80% armor?

That hunter may very well have had heroic presence, evasive tactics 5, acrobat 5, and material wall cast on him.

In fact he probably did.

I can assure you that he was not buffed with material wall.
He could have been under the effect of Heroic Presence, but I doubt that since there was no knight near as far as I could see.

Evasive Tactics - Probably.
Acrobatic - Yes, I saw it clearly.

But what's the big deal? On lvl 5 Acrobatic skill is duration/cooldown, so you can keep buffed all the time.
Evasive Tactics, if you choose to use it even because of the Hit Chance penalty, have only a 10 seconds gap between.

So this situation with Nizzan getting attacked by a barb could as well apply to you.
This is the truth Valorius... if the hunter is buffed with Acrobatics and maybe Evasive Tactics and the barbarian is not using Berserk, most barbarians will not cause more damages than this.

When I come home later today I will show you a screenshot of what damage a hunter can cause on a barbarian buffed with Berserk, Caution (4) and Frenzy (5)...

[_dracus_]

Originally Posted by Miraculix

I never said reducing barb base attack was the way to go. I said SC-immunity to barbs is not the way to go.

Moving SC to a knight only tree and giving barbs some other spell like an attack speed bonus is imo a much better solution.

Totally disagree. Knights hitting for 1200 dmg with SC is same has barb hitting for more than 2000 dmg with SC or Ripost. It's insane.
Southcross and Ripost should only use unbuffed base attack to compute the dmg they deal. Same for Lethal Strike. All the more than 100% dmg +% chance should use only unbuffed base attack.
Maybe I'm saying something stupid but it's my opinion right now. If you have better ideas let me know.