Warlocks and Cast Speed

[doppelapfel]

Originally Posted by VandaMan

Why would a lock play without CS items?

Why do marks play without dragonamu, evebow and 2 rha rings? Because not everyone has them. Again: A lock that was not able to get cs items needed twice the time a lock with good gear needed to cast a spell (in case both used lvl 5 devotion).

Originally Posted by VandaMan

Even more importantly, how does a "good geared" ignis lock have more CS than any other lock with good gear? Light Tunic != Good Gear.

Armor points werent really important back then, i would have used it if i had got the chance to get one.

Originally Posted by VandaMan

You must be PvPing some pretty terrible players. A marks that can't kill you during 26 seconds (I think?) of burst of wind and son of the wind just fails, and that's without even considering his other ways of disabling you (winter stroke, ambush, distracting shot, stunning fist). It's understandable that you can beat most barbs, but only if you've skilled for PvP against them (Slow 5 or something stupid) instead of a setup that is more general.

Lol first you tell me all marks had bow lvl 5, sotw 5 and the whole tricks stuff, so definitly a pvp setup, and i couldnt beat them and as you started talking about barbs you say its just possible with a "stupid" pvp setup including slow 5. Only very few marks use all spells you named on a high lvl, as only very few/no locks use slow 5. It is possible to beat a marks that doesnt use lvl 5 bow, lvl 5 sotw, ambush and so on, if he doesnt have ubergear and hits 500 norms or more you can survive bow, survive sotw (or get a spell through, happens often now) and then start a cc chain.
And yes my setup is mainly made for fighting barbs cause they are the only class against which i need special skills i wouldnt use if they wouldnt exist. Slow 3, lazyness 1 and mind push 4, but all of them are also very usefull in war and against other classes.

Originally Posted by VandaMan

In RvR lock can still be fun, but when the enemy has several marksman you will never get close enough to cast a spell without simply zerging the enemy. There's no half-way point, either you can do nothing or you overrun them with numbers.

This doesnt make sense, this would mean that no other class than marks, long bow hunters and full support conjus/knights are involved in battles, nobody beside archers can get near enough to attack. Of course i can if we coordinate well or i attack enemies that come closer. I dont expect that i can come close enough to an enemy zerg and survive long enough to do something if im completly alone, of course i need my allies (as all classes).

Originally Posted by VandaMan

I don't know anyone dumb enough to stand there and let me load them up with DoTs (which are generally only 25 range) after I've darknessed them. With slower cast times, and longer global cooldowns, it's very difficult to darkness someone and still get off your DoTs.

Its not hard to get into range 20 of someone, cast darkness, ivy, 2-3 spells (depending on ivys lvl) and maybe get closer while gcd is running to cast will domain then. It isnt hard.

[Shwish]

Just on a side note: Don't use 'Son of the wind' as an argument when simulating a PvP situation with an archer. If you've tried it lately you'd see that it fails for times than it succeeds and most archers don't bother taking the evasion tree that high anymore.

So scratch that skill of the list of effective counters.

Thanks, you can continue your random argument now.

[ncvr]

Originally Posted by doppelapfel

Its not hard to get into range 20 of someone, cast darkness, ivy, 2-3 spells (depending on ivys lvl) and maybe get closer while gcd is running to cast will domain then. It isnt hard.

No, it's not. It's hard to not find yourself dead when you're done with that, though. Keep in mind that the discussion is about fort wars, in which locks are very visible, high priority targets.

[Seher]

Originally Posted by doppelapfel

This doesnt make sense, this would mean that no other class than marks, long bow hunters and full support conjus/knights are involved in battles, nobody beside archers can get near enough to attack.

It kind of is like that, because there isn't enough healing in this game.

[Catelyn]

Shwish, yes sotw is random, escapist is random too. But it still works and most use it. It makes you mad when you use it and you still get spells+normals, but it makes you laugh when it works and you evade spells+normal hits.
Even if it's 50%, that's still enough to delay your death, and if you're lucky evade knocks or debuffs or any crucial spell. But that's another debate.

For the others, Van is a good lock, and if you haved played less time then others doesn't mean they are better. Specially that we play differently, on different servers, fights are not exactly the same, and we can learn from everyone

Doppel, it's not hard to chain your spells, but usually you will find yourself dead after that.
In a fort war, that's obvious, many will target you unless you have a zerg backup.

In 1vs1 , unless you come from rear and the enemy didn't see you, that chain fails badly.
First they won't wait till you are in range to react and even if you hit the first spell,
you have short gcd after ivy, 1.5 sec, that's enough for good players to ripost.
That kind of playing could work sometimes, but it won't if you are fighting above average players.

Before update, we used to see many locks and hunters, and not many knights (except for alsuis).
Now we see mostly archers,many play their knighs again, and marks seem's the favorite. Maybe we should ask ourselves why?

[Shwish]

Originally Posted by Catelyn

Before update, we used to see many locks and hunters, and not many knights (except for alsuis).
Now we see mostly archers,many play their knighs again, and marks seem's the favorite. Maybe we should ask ourselves why?

What? We playing the same game? All I see nowadays are Barbs... they everywhere

[Catelyn]

yes sorry barbs too :P

[VandaMan]

Originally Posted by doppelapfel

Why do marks play without dragonamu, evebow and 2 rha rings? Because not everyone has them. Again: A lock that was not able to get cs items needed twice the time a lock with good gear needed to cast a spell (in case both used lvl 5 devotion).

It's much easier to get some cast speed gear than it is to get a dragon ammy or eve bow and boss jewelry.

Originally Posted by doppelapfel

Lol first you tell me all marks had bow lvl 5, sotw 5 and the whole tricks stuff, so definitly a pvp setup, and i couldnt beat them and as you started talking about barbs you say its just possible with a "stupid" pvp setup including slow 5. Only very few marks use all spells you named on a high lvl, as only very few/no locks use slow 5. It is possible to beat a marks that doesnt use lvl 5 bow, lvl 5 sotw, ambush and so on, if he doesnt have ubergear and hits 500 norms or more you can survive bow, survive sotw (or get a spell through, happens often now) and then start a cc chain.

I didn't say all marks have all of that. Almost all marks do carry BoW though, on level 4 or 5, along with winter stroke at the highest level they can get it and ambush level 3 or 4. Quite a few carry SOTW as well. I wouldn't consider that a setup specific for PvP against a lock because all of these things are useful against all classes.

Originally Posted by doppelapfel

Its not hard to get into range 20 of someone, cast darkness, ivy, 2-3 spells (depending on ivys lvl) and maybe get closer while gcd is running to cast will domain then. It isnt hard.

yeah, this:

Originally Posted by Necrovarus

No, it's not. It's hard to not find yourself dead when you're done with that, though. Keep in mind that the discussion is about fort wars, in which locks are very visible, high priority targets.

[doppelapfel]

Originally Posted by VandaMan

It's much easier to get some cast speed gear than it is to get a dragon ammy or eve bow and boss jewelry.

Anyway i dont want another class to be totally addicted to gear, atm locks are good to play without while cs-items arent useless. If you give +cs back its old power locks would need to be nerfed to a point where those with cs gear are balanced, this would hurt those without gear. Cs bonus is what all boni should be, its nice to have it, it helps a bit but its not that important that you get an unfair advantage if you have lots of it (saying this as a lock with 17% cs on gear).

I didn't say all marks have all of that. Almost all marks do carry BoW though, on level 4 or 5, along with winter stroke at the highest level they can get it and ambush level 3 or 4. Quite a few carry SOTW as well. I wouldn't consider that a setup specific for PvP against a lock because all of these things are useful against all classes.

Bow 5 ambush 3, ws 5 could be included in a normal war setup, tricks 17 is in the same way pvp orientated as putting points in slow imo. Those 3 spells are not enough to kill a lock (at least not with the gear my marks has).

No, it's not. It's hard to not find yourself dead when you're done with that, though. Keep in mind that the discussion is about fort wars, in which locks are very visible, high priority targets.

Im not as often targeted as before the update, most ppl try to kill barbs now first (or conjus as before), at least where i play. I dont expect being able to kill an enemy totally on my own but i can either be a good help by casting darkness and my 2 dots that deal 2k dmg together (i usually do not die while doing this if i dont act dumb) or i can kill ppl alone if i get help (auras, dispel, heals).

Really, what do you think locks should be able to do? Spam enough dmg spells in few seconds to get down an enemy alone, fast enough to not die while doing it? I can deal a lot dmg (lightning, ice blast, fireball), cc a lot enemies at the same time (got 10 spells with a cc effect atm) , support my allies with dispel, synergy, mp/mc or even buffs if i would want to, disable many enemies at the same time (mind push ), if i want to i can also go hunting and kill most ppl in pvp, i have a lot abilities to be usefull and to have fun, im satisfied with my lock in its current state and i dont want it to turn into an easy playable op class as before.

[Catelyn]

I don't think having old cast speed could work, we need a balanced solution.

And that doesn't mean we need to change only locks spell, it's not only from a locks perspective.

A lock is supposed to deal lots of damage, on a singler player or group of ennemies, and have crowd control options. In return, he needs protection from his mates.
If you want to play support and give mana and buffs, get a conj, you are born to deal damage, leave support for others :P Your cc can save you, you use them to buy time to cast more damage spells.

Now lock deal lots of damage, when using dots. But dots are effective on a period of time (5 to 10 seconds with our spells). Why not, even if it can be dispelled, countered.
I prefer to consider dots as spells to use early in fight, or when the oppenent is running, to make sure to kill him even if he gets away. Now dot are our best way to attack. Ngd choice :P

Before update, you could use slow for pvp, but now it's a must. You can't survive without it, in small fights and even sometimes near forts. You can have a setup without it, but you will never be able to survive on your own.
It used to work on hunters to limit their speed, now it's only dedicated to warriors.
And how does it work? You cast it when a barb charges and you run, hoping you could last for 10 seconds before being able to respond.
Why did they get beetle effect on madness? I don't know, before we had advantage with beelte, now it's the barb revenge.

Only problem, they use spring. So you need a high lvl slow, and even with that they can get you anyway. Mind push is not that good, they can stun you when in range too.
Then it's kick+buffs+hits+feint and you are dead.

If madness should stay the same, maybe something needs to be done with the kick/feint combo.

Slow is essential with knights too. They can block spells now. I didn't really look into it so I could say nonsense, but does ao1 helps resist some cc spells?

As for the other part, it's with archers range. Now we can't do much in fort wars due to that insane range, our areas are range 25-30 anyway. Sometimes I even get hit without seeing them. Maybe with less range, we will be more efficient in battles.