Balance Update - Stage 2 - Implementation

[_Nel_]

Originally Posted by Frosk

General:

• Knock-Downs: The duration of this effect will be reduced.
• Dizzy: The duration of this effect will be reduced.

Other control effects will be adjusted depending on the damage and/or secondary effect of each skill in particular.

Cool, 1st foot-in-the-door done!
Next step, get rid of offensive beacon to make CC useful again.

As Bois said:

Originally Posted by bois

To all those who complain that this will be a hack and slash without CC. News flash , IT ALREADY IS. Get you stuff resisted or blocked and you will see.
Damage already rules the roost. Some classes are anaemic in terms of damage but that is due in part to armour calculations, stacked defences (which go too high) and calculations on weaponry. Fixed damage spells also play their part in the discrepancy.

/me hopes one day we will get rid of crappy and unbalanced WM spells.

[Seher]

So true... hack&slash your CCs, without any need to think about it. There's your chain, it's the same all the time, and that's it. And for RvR there isn't even a chain, you just spam the most powerful CC that currently isn't on cool down.

To me long CCs numb this game down, CCs are what reduces player skill. (And they're frustrating, of course)

[_Enio_]

Originally Posted by Seher

To me long CCs numb this game down, CCs are what reduces player skill.

I disagree and i really dont understand it. Your posts arent stupid, sometimes you have really good points. But then again you somehow interpret some things in a very unlogic way imho.

A little example trying to show my PoV:

Greatly reduced complexity.

1st Version:
C onjurer has unlimited heal.
B arb can just do unlimited higher damage on melee.
M arks do unlimited smaller damage on range.

Lets also assume the Conjs healing is enough to make anyone tank 1 dps (either barb or Marks) but both of them.
We got CBM vs CBM in an Arena like area.

What is the deciding actions in such matchup and where is place for individual skill having impact i want to examine.

Here is basically no way to work towards an advantage. The dynamics are quite hilarious and boring for a reason.

- Team A try to dps down opposed Team B Conj.

Team B could
1) try the same thus end up 2 conjs dying and BM vs BM ends in a draw.
2) try dps down either opposed B or M. Team A would lose C and team B proably their B, result in BM vs CM. Depending on how the numbers are (C heal vs M dmg) it could go either way from there, but the individual actions arent the deciding factor but the game mechanics.
3) Quick target switching trying to get the opposed conj not react in time -> Depends mostly on the dmg v heal numbers aswell.
4) You could decide to always dodge situations where 2dps are on 1 target by running away ending in a constant reset of the fight -> draw.
Either way whatever target you chose to go on would end in similar choices.

IMHO theres rly not much place for interaction and tactics, that should be obvious. Your options to go a specific tactical path forcing the opposed team to go a counter path are just too limited.


2nd Version:
C onjurer has unlimited heal.
B arb can just do unlimited damage and has 1 short Freeze.
M arks can do unlimited small damage has 1 long Freeze.

- Team A try to dps down opposed Team B Conj.

I have a little trouble listing tactical choices since the amount of counter paths to any approach explodes, even with just such limited cc.

Team B options:
a) Let own C die and attempt kill opposed C
b) Attempt save own C by short Freezing opposed B and switching towards Team A C
c) Attempt save own C by Long Freeze on B (who is at own C) and switch to M using short ranged freeze to delay enemy C heals on enemy M.
etc.

Just think on the tactical combinations the different freeze durations and ranges offer in this setup. Its still an even encounter which with perfect counter actions will result in a draw, but the amount of overwiev and tactical thinking (skill) needed for the right decisions to counter each approach is greatly increased. When you mindlessly Freeze the enemy C in a moment where you conj is under 2 DPS (You dont need to block enemies healing in this situation!) Your own C will probably die.

I hope this isnt too confusing and that it makes my point more clear, i am just trying to outline how CC is the main factor for skill having impact by letting the Decision Tree explode in complexity.
At such a point, when you cant quickly find the best option the "skill" gets impact. Experience, anticipation, knowledge - all that gains more weight with increased complexity. And IMHO this is what is needed for a game to hook players and keep it interesting and fun.

You *need* the option to improve in the game to make it fun.
That implies you need the tools that allow your actions to have impact on the outcome, which is by my logic connected to having cc as a tool.
Pure hack 'n slash clearly does not. Highly chance based mechanics do not.

To come back to RO specifics, myself and other players are disappointed by the gameplay that we get forced towards update after update.
We are trading situations that can be frustrating for the less experienced players for less frustrating but also less interesting and fun situations. The problem is, newer players can increase their level of play and get better in the first version, in 2nd the options are reachd quickly and another kind of frustration kicks in, that one which makes you go for another game.

I fear that RO slowly but surely transforms into a transit game with great hook for new players and a merely boring endgame once you maxed out your non-skill related but very lucky-box related options.

And i dont want that.

Originally Posted by _Nel_

/me hopes one day we will get rid of crappy and unbalanced WM spells.

Especially concerning the offensive beacon i hope that since they announced them too.

Originally Posted by _Enio_ on 03-12-2011

"Lasting two minutes, players interacting with this beacon will receive Warmaster’s Offensive Blessing. This raises defense against crowd control spells and attacks making it very difficult for enemy players to freeze, stun or knock you down. The Offensive Beacon creates a unique opportunity to inflict massive damage on enemies who dare to stand in the way of the Warmaster and his war companions."

For me that translates to AoE Unstoppable Madness (without Dizzy/Cannot attack resist).

In some near future we will probably have a quite high number of Warmasters in bigger fights, probably allowing beacons to be set for infinite Durations.

Did NGD think through how this will affect game balance? I myself disagree to this mechanics as it greatly favous packs of melee and kind of destroys infight-tactics.

And what makes it worse is that theres no visual feedback (i.e. visible animation) on players affected by those buffs.

Why? I really dont understand that at all. I mean, if you playd a little in wars youd know its quite frustrating to not know if someone is immune to cc as just trying often means if it fails you are dead. Same wit DI animation which doesnt show. But sorry thats goin offtopic.

Looking forward to more more exciting changes.

[Kitsuni]

Originally Posted by bois

I knew a lot of people were going to hate this update. While I don't particularly dislike the direction NGD is taking, I can understand the frustrations.

Peace meal updates are going to frustrate players, immensely. What makes matters worse is that the perception is that NGD is doing updates by the seat of its pants and just outing fires. While I don't think so and think they have some sort of a plan, many people do not have the infinite patience I have.

Back to the topic.

This is my opinion and I don't mind getting harshly judged for it. Many , many players are drunk on the use of CC in this game. And why not? It is the most effective, efficient and clinical way of putting down your opponents who in many cases find themselves locked in well rehearsed prisons with no way out (except resist). But CC should never be this. It should be a very short term debilitating spell that buys you time to gain a slight advantage and more importantly place a foundation for you to lay either more debuffs on your opponent or buff yourself. But why do that when you can lay a well rehearsed and scripted CC chain and lay out damage between it?
So it is CC to damage. A resist and oops.

As it is, despite GCD and what ever excuses anyone can muster, CC is the definitive factor in battles when in fact debuffs should be the meat of battles. Damage potential should be determined by buffs/debuffs some of which give credible malus for using them, depending on the potency.

Several debuffs/buffs in this game are poor. However, that should be the next port of call for NGD.
To all those who complain that this will be a hack and slash without CC. News flash , IT ALREADY IS. Get you stuff resisted or blocked and you will see.
Damage already rules the roost. Some classes are anaemic in terms of damage but that is due in part to armour calculations, stacked defences (which go too high) and calculations on weaponry. Fixed damage spells also play their part in the discrepancy.

To my mind CC reductions are a must. But it must be in combination with other adjustments elsewhere. Yes, it will suck epically with peace meal updates and I certainly hope NGD would address that. New features are nice (easier) but this section really needs more resources placed behind it.

Edit: I reiterate that control via mana regeneration and scarcity of power points will make a difference. No longer can players have offence and defence all around builds. No longer can they have a compendium of high level CC. They will have to choose carefully.

You don't seem to *quite* get it, it is not that CCs are being nerfed, we all agreed that this is needed. That much is definitely true.

As you realize, the problem is that NGD is nerfing them only partially. This leaves other OP CCs untouched, resulting in an extreme difficulty curve to classes that have fewer CCs such as Hunters and Conjurors. One of the key support conj defenses, Will domain, has been nerfed, (after Beetle swarm no longer stops a UM barb), leaving Support Conjs extremely vulnerable in comparison to Warlocks, who still have Slow. There are many more examples of this, for example the current state of Marksmen that people claim is overpowred is because they are literally kiting gods, not even Hunters can catch Marksman easily due to rediculous Winter stroke SPAM. I've seen small groups of Marksmen kill entire parties of enemies just by WS, damage, run, WS, damage, run. Me and Nekoko have even done this quite a few times ourselves, once killing over five persuers.

Throughout everything Conjs have suffered, Mental was their saving grace in fort wars. Now they just die worse than ever before. The Knight has retained Feint while Barbs had it removed, so they get off easy, but the Hunter is a little less lucky when two of their only three *non-Slow* CCs (which are all shared) got horribly nerfed.

Nerfing CCs is the right approach, but not as long as strong and equivalent CCs still exist in enemy hands.

You have to do all of the balance to CCs at once, or you make the game extremely frustrating for certain classes during the mean time and the net result is that you lose players on top of a game that has already lost hundreds if not thousands of players. At the moment supporters of NGD just say players have to wait it out, be patient and deal with it. Well, you wait it and be patient, but don;t be suprised when your friends list keeps getting smaller and smaller as people are left unable to win battles by not being able to close the gap between DPS and non DPS classes. Worse is that some classes have so few CCs already that nerfing them leaves then almost literally naked.

[Psynocide]

Originally Posted by NSer

/me fighting knight: ivy blocked swarm resisted silence... damn again resisted->feint 5->kick3/4/5->dead most of cases.
/me fighting barb:slow run run run ivy->he is dead
/me getting killed by hunter:tear apart->distracting shot->hunter using dirty fighting->ambush->900 ens arrow->i dead
/me fighting marx->treehug->swarm got through SoTW->i won
/me fighting warju->damn mind blank->dead or someback with vamp and SK
/me fighting lock->damn lag got caught and dead.
Heheh U said notice this more often?

An example only proves of one instance you may have been unlucky or lucky.
You can flip a coin a hundred times and get heads every time, it is possible no matter how unlikely - either way my point is that you can tell tales of flipping heads a hundred times but you could also land a hundred tails next time.
In short, your examples aren't substantiation.

Nor can I find it written officially that constitution effects resistance rate - although I would like this implemented in future, this way knights can tank more effectively by combating CC's.

Originally Posted by NSer

/me fighting knight: ivy blocked

Block chance is a completely different beneficial factor than resist rate.

[NSer]

Originally Posted by isaacrulzrs2

...

And? knight not only takes more spells to cast but resist as crazy..... Anyways we don't know what kind of RND generator NGD using..... So we can't say what it was.. luck or or statistics

[HidraA]

Originally Posted by Kitsunie

You don't seem to quite get it, it is not that CCs are being nerfed, we all agreed that this is needed. That much is definitely true.

The problem is that NGD is nerfing them only partially. This leaves other OP CCs untouched, resulting in an extreme difficulty curve to classes that have fewer CCs such as Hunters and Conjurors. One of the key support conj defenses, Will domain, has been nerfed, (after Beetle swarm no longer stops a UM barb), leaving Support Conjs extremely vulnerable in comparison to Warlocks, who still have Slow.

Beetle swarm was damn powerful before.... a full buffed barb was just a dead meat runing around even with his UM 50 seconds.....hiting nothing...just run and die..in RvR situation...worst than any kind of CC.
I saw many times 4-5 barbs kiled in a row by beetle 2-3 without touching someone from enemy realm....and 10 seconds of protection vs beetle is not so bad...you can cast as conj when you are under still skin after UM gone...
I dont play barb anymore but belive me....beetle is damn powerfull CC...worst that confuse.

On confuse at least you can cast attack powers.
On dizzy effects you can make normal hits....
On bettle swarm you can't do something...is as you are knoked for 15 seconds...complete disabled....

I remember once..if i find that old video record to see ...that chain of 5 barbs killed in row by beetle swarm ...was wowoww...7 seconds from that 10 barbs run.....after proly he knock you....only if MS works he can kill you ...if not slow->and beetle,priky, etc... after...conj have somehow protection if are not MS-ed...
And i play conj ,the think is conj must waste 30% of his PP on protection if not...=>dead conj...and i don't think conj plays anymore as solo hunt,just support group....

But about beetle is fine as it is.....if revert back...even today barbs with uber dmg will become back useless barbs as a wile back in RvR situation...

[Lekarz]

Where is Darkness and Confuse duration nerf?
One of these casted on CONJURER make this class USELESS.
You want ppl to play this class- nerf this shit or make DI cast on yourself.

Greetings,
Veteran CONJURER

Up: beetle have short duration, don't cry.

[NSer]

Originally Posted by HidraA

Beetle swarm was damn powerful before.... a full buffed barb was just a dead meat runing around even with his UM 50 seconds.....hiting nothing...just run and die..in RvR situation...worst than any kind of CC.
I saw many times 4-5 barbs kiled in a row by beetle 2-3 without touching someone from enemy realm....and 10 seconds of protection vs beetle is not so bad...you can cast as conj when you are under still skin after UM gone...
I dont play barb anymore but belive me....beetle is damn powerfull CC...worst that confuse.

On confuse at least you can cast attack powers.
On dizzy effects you can make normal hits....
On bettle swarm you can't do something...is as you are knoked for 15 seconds...complete disabled....

I remember once..if i find that old video record to see ...that chain of 5 barbs killed in row by beetle swarm ...was wowoww...7 seconds from that 10 barbs run.....after proly he knock you....only if MS works he can kill you ...if not slow->and beetle,priky, etc... after...conj have somehow protection if are not MS-ed...
And i play conj ,the think is conj must waste 30% of his PP on protection if not...=>dead conj...and i don't think conj plays anymore as solo hunt,just support group....

But about beetle is fine as it is.....if revert back...even today barbs with uber dmg will become back useless barbs as a wile back in RvR situation...

Now stfu and remeber:due to off beacons warm THE ONLY CC which ignores it and this makes it quite useful. 2nd it's last 9 seconds at 5 not 15 as u mentioned. 3rd it can be dispelled confuse (can't be dispellled elf but other one) and darkness (which lasts 20 seconds on Level1 and can't be dispelled at all).

[Frosk]

Originally Posted by Lekarz

Where is Darkness and Confuse duration nerf?
One of these casted on CONJURER make this class USELESS.
You want ppl to play this class- nerf this shit or make DI cast on yourself.

Greetings,
Veteran CONJURER

Up: beetle have short duration, don't cry.

DI on self would even produce more imbalance when it comes to an offensive-skilled conjurer.

As I said in the previous balance stages, there's no need at all to get angry at changes, since as the very word says it, these are stages.

More changes will come. Be patient.