The Current State of Hunters

[_Enio_]

whats the point of the hunter class if you can easily kill without using your special skills to fight? Pets need a fix asap of course, but hunters are pretty strong imho. Any defense buff would make them totally op. What makes many hunters i face weak is - most do NOT fully use their potential.

Sorry to bring up l2p here but it seems to be really an issue. Or rather a misunderstanding of the class.
Either you go solo, the sneaky way with tricks as your deadly annoying weapon or in a group as tracker and tool.. What do i say, id fully understand if youd whine like a baby that stunfist doesnt work on knockeds, but more defense.. Want a huntsman with pets so nobody stands a chance no matter how dumb you play?

[Ertial]

The problem is that the two hunter trees are largely focussed at one or two things. The pet tree provides mostly spells that have a sole target: your pet.
In Scouting there are four tracking spells and two invisibility spells.

Although those spells are very important for being a hunter, they limit the possibility of adding other spells, thus the hunter is a class that relies the most on the shared spell trees. Warriors have also got two subclass specific spell trees, but those have a lot more diversity, making it easier for NGD to change the behaviour of one of the subclasses by changing the spells in the specific subtrees.

If you want to balance a hunter, you'll most likely be messing with the marksman as well.

NGD should move, or create substitutional for, spells that are important to hunters. When they've done that it's easier to balance the hunter and the current evasion problems can be mended without making the marksman more powerful (or weaker) at the same time.

[makarios68]

Originally Posted by Aensor

whats the point of the hunter class if you can easily kill without using your special skills to fight? Pets need a fix asap of course, but hunters are pretty strong imho. Any defense buff would make them totally op. What makes many hunters i face weak is - most do NOT fully use their potential.

Sorry to bring up l2p here but it seems to be really an issue. Or rather a misunderstanding of the class.
Either you go solo, the sneaky way with tricks as your deadly annoying weapon or in a group as tracker and tool.. What do i say, id fully understand if youd whine like a baby that stunfist doesnt work on knockeds, but more defense.. Want a huntsman with pets so nobody stands a chance no matter how dumb you play?

Thank you for teaching hunters how to play their class, but as your main character class is marksman i think you have a biased opinion here.

Yes, hunters do need more defence - it's pathetic how easily they die atm. But as people have mentioned it's hard to give them something without also giving it to marksman. I would like to see an improved evasive tactics which is only available to hunters and not marksmen.

I also think the out-of-camo attack bonus applied to skills isn't too much to ask for either.

It goes without saying that the pet problems need sorting out.

And since you brought up the subject of stun fist: this further highlights the problem of having shared trees. I see no reason whatsoever why marksmen have this skill. Doing their job properly, they should be causing big dmg from range 39, not stunning an opponent at melee range! Fist should be zero cast time and avaialble only to hunters.

[-Edge-]

Originally Posted by makarios68

I also think the out-of-camo attack bonus applied to skills isn't too much to ask for either.

It goes without saying that the pet problems need sorting out.

And since you brought up the subject of stun fist: this further highlights the problem of having shared trees. I see no reason whatsoever why marksmen have this skill. Doing their job properly, they should be causing big dmg from range 39, not stunning an opponent at melee range! Fist should be zero cast time and avaialble only to hunters.

The camo bonus and pet problems are obviously bugs. And they are all that need fixing atm imo. Yes hunters have weak defense, but this is something thats been there for awhile one way or another, I don't want another update on them again out of the blue.

Marksman don't use tricks as much because they already have a category for full out attacks. Stunning fist is still great, it was only nerfed because alot of people were using it on lvl 1.

NGD just needs to fix the pet bugs and camo adjustment. Nothing more, I have no problem with playing my hunter the way I do currently with or without a pet. You can't improve evasion without thinking how it will affect Marksmen. The same was with SC for barbs and knights.

Originally Posted by Ertial

The problem is that the two hunter trees are largely focussed at one or two things. The pet tree provides mostly spells that have a sole target: your pet.
In Scouting there are four tracking spells and two invisibility spells.

I agree with this, each class has its own obvious category that is in a way mandatory. For barbarians its Warcries, knights its Shields, conjurers Heals, marksmen Arrow mastery, warlocks Arcania (or w/e, mages have more points)

For hunters I could never really tell which category was that mandatory category, as you can play really without one or the other. Personally I would just say that for hunters its Pets. But there are people that play without them perfectly well. (I don't use pets besides for grinding, I love the whole tricks category and scouting maxed always) Some of the pet spells are really useless though, or track monster too. These are free slots for change, not evasion.

[_Enio_]

Originally Posted by makarios68

Thank you for teaching hunters how to play their class, but as your main character class is marksman i think you have a biased opinion here.
...

Dont get of wrong, its not meant personal. Its the experience i made. Many hunters dont play their full potential or have configs which dont strengthens the role theyre playing that moment.

Despite marks seem to be maxrange fighters only their full damage potential is obviously DS range. The diversity of viable configs and playstyles is why im playing marks and closerange is a big part of it, so please dont tell me like this how a marks does his job good or bad - its kinda narrowminded.
I dont like the idea of more tank for hunters. It doesnt fit to that class, relying on not mitigating damage is the key i think. The class is designed around sneaking to get a good moment, knowing whats around to decide tactics, killing nasty and elegant like a stealth light weight agent that kills with a knife and vanishs as fast as it appeared. Not with a shotgun and a bulletproof west.

On paper hunters have the tools to get their part of the cake. What needs improvement is the bad disc. Point distribution for some skilltrees, fixing of skills like the fucking casttime on stunfist and the buggy knock where you cannot dizzy/apply cannot attack - and petusability.

Not tanking skills. Any yeah thats my biased opinion, flame me if you need to, but please with well thought content.


(regarding biased opinion on marks vs hunter, if a LVL 50 hunter gets a drop on an unbuffed marks 1 VS 1 and looses he should blame himself and his config, nothing more. )

[Seher]

Originally Posted by Aensor

whats the point of the hunter class if you can easily kill without using your special skills to fight? Pets need a fix asap of course, but hunters are pretty strong imho. Any defense buff would make them totally op. What makes many hunters i face weak is - most do NOT fully use their potential.

So, you know so much about hunters, please tell me, where is my full potential? I use evasion 19, short 19, scouting 19, long 11, tricks 11. (I play my hunter only in fortwars)

Originally Posted by Aensor

Sorry to bring up l2p here but it seems to be really an issue. Or rather a misunderstanding of the class.
Either you go solo, the sneaky way with tricks as your deadly annoying weapon or in a group as tracker and tool.. What do i say, id fully understand if youd whine like a baby that stunfist doesnt work on knockeds, but more defense.. Want a huntsman with pets so nobody stands a chance no matter how dumb you play?

I don't want to be a "tracker and tool", you mean a hunter should find the enemy, be attentive and sit and wait untill the fight is over? Yeeah, great class.

Hunters are fine in 1on1, but need some improvements in RvR.

[-Edge-]

Originally Posted by Seher

Hunters are fine in 1on1, but need some improvements in RvR.

Really O_o ?

I would say the opposite from my experience. Hunters are great for co-op and ideal partners for hunting of course. To me its that alot of hunters try to mix different setups for hunting and for fort wars, they don't mix well usually and its no kidding you cannot do both.

The way I see it NGD has balanced every other class for RvR, but hunters have been balanced in a PvP style. Not counting multiple opponents. (Still nothing a distracting shot can't do)

In 1 on 1 I would rather have problems, but nothing too serious aside from knights (especially the ones with passives in blunt ) Deflect Projectiles and you need to wait for the Knights buffs to come down. Retaliation can score some damage back at hard hitters, you just need to time the spell right.

I haven't played a Hunter as long as other people here maybe, but to me I think its the ideal class to cause havoc and chaos among the enemy flanks. And this is what I try to stick to, not being another peashooter that deals damage, but annoying and causing as much disruption into enemy groups as possible, while moving swiftly as the wind, popping in and out. Maybe I don't deal the damage, but it sure as hell makes the enemy mad and makes them easier for friends to kill.

Originally Posted by makarios68

And since you brought up the subject of stun fist: this further highlights the problem of having shared trees. I see no reason whatsoever why marksmen have this skill. Doing their job properly, they should be causing big dmg from range 39, not stunning an opponent at melee range! Fist should be zero cast time and avaialble only to hunters.

But what I like about archers is that you can pick tons of different ways to play. It dosen't matter how you're supposed to play. I thinks its just about feeling you have an effect. Does stunning fist mean you need to play at point blank range? No, but its useful when a warriors makes his way to you finnaly, or just whenever you are passing up an enemy. It works great into combo's with other skills, if you want to play at short range then you can use short bows to your advantage, dirty fighting, retaliation, etc.

[_Enio_]

o

Originally Posted by Seher

So, you know so much about hunters, please tell me, where is my full potential? I use evasion 19, short 19, scouting 19, long 11, tricks 11. (I play my hunter only in fortwars)



I don't want to be a "tracker and tool", you mean a hunter should find the enemy, be attentive and sit and wait untill the fight is over? Yeeah, great class.

Hunters are fine in 1on1, but need some improvements in RvR.

Tricks min. 15, evasion 17 or 15.scouting 17 kinda. in fortwars marksmen ofcourse have the better damage, ranged defense and range so i strongly suggest to find out what you can do better - sneak in for a high confuse on conjs if not DIed. Generally 'confuse' them with a repshot in their back to distract and get your wls the second they need for a fine sultar(some points in LP should be enough to bring you back to your conjs), finish off those fleeing back in to rest. Or go for picking out just arriving ones if in huntconfig. Thats where i see hunters strong in FFs.

Generally strong in groupfights to make small small tactical actions with big impact on the outcome of the fight.

[Catelyn]

Originally Posted by makarios68

And since you brought up the subject of stun fist: this further highlights the problem of having shared trees. I see no reason whatsoever why marksmen have this skill. Doing their job properly, they should be causing big dmg from range 39, not stunning an opponent at melee range! Fist should be zero cast time and avaialble only to hunters.

You may be right, but then, it applies to hunters too. They are supposed to be scouting in warzone, that's where they own, not in fort wars. Aensor may have a "marksman" point of view, but aren't you doing the same?

Hunters are deadly when they do what they can do best. Hunting. With or without a pet, they do fine. Looking at rankings, I see some are doing great. Isn't scouting a support class? You can't have tracking spells, have pets to help, max speed and damage spells too.

As the marks said before, death sentence is 25 range. And good 50 long bows have 25 range too. Besides, dual shoot is way better then shield piercing. If you complain about fort wars, well range is not worth it when you are on top, and they pile at door, or just stay close to wall.

Hunters are not fine on 1vs1, they are great. Hunters I hunt/talk with stay away from knights, but engage all other class. Of course if you wanna just rush on enemy and hit him, you better make a barb.

I'm sorry, but tricks at 11 for a hunter? Tricks is an awesome tree, you should check it sometimes. Lately I saw two alsuis hunters engage a group of four near herb, including a conj. They managed to kill one, and get away without loss. That was great, even though I was on the wrong side. They just took advantage of tricks spells, targeting the conjurer and got away with it.

[Seher]

Originally Posted by Edge

I haven't played a Hunter as long as other people here maybe, but to me I think its the ideal class to cause havoc and chaos among the enemy flanks. And this is what I try to stick to, not being another peashooter that deals damage, but annoying and causing as much disruption into enemy groups as possible, while moving swiftly as the wind, popping in and out. Maybe I don't deal the damage, but it sure as hell makes the enemy mad and makes them easier for friends to kill.

Yeah, because they are killing you oO Alone in the enemies' army => dead.

Originally Posted by Aensor

o

Tricks min. 15, evasion 17 or 15.scouting 17 kinda. in fortwars marksmen ofcourse have the better damage, ranged defense and range so i strongly suggest to find out what you can do better - sneak in for a high confuse on conjs if not DIed. Generally 'confuse' them with a repshot in their back to distract and get your wls the second they need for a fine sultar(some points in LP should be enough to bring you back to your conjs), finish off those fleeing back in to rest. Or go for picking out just arriving ones if in huntconfig. Thats where i see hunters strong in FFs.

Generally strong in groupfights to make small small tactical actions with big impact on the outcome of the fight.

Lol, you're funny. I don't use tricks 15 any more, confuse is useless. Yeah, I could sneak around and confuse a healer, but why? On the German Servers is dispel magic very popular.
Yeah, repshot in their back, veeery useful. After a few seconds all my damage is healed, and I've wasted my repshot. I do use repshot, but only combined with sultar and barbareas.
Finish off those who are fleeing? Yeah good idea, but then the battle is over. And killing the arriving ones is plain boring.

Evasion 19 - a must - scouting 19, to deal a bit more damage.

Originally Posted by Catelyn

Hunters are deadly when they do what they can do best. Hunting. With or without a pet, they do fine. Looking at rankings, I see some are doing great.

Shouldn't hunters be able to join fortwars?

Originally Posted by Catelyn

Isn't scouting a support class? You can't have tracking spells, have pets to help, max speed and damage spells too.

Yeah, you have to decide what you want.

Originally Posted by Catelyn

As the marks said before, death sentence is 25 range. And good 50 long bows have 25 range too. Besides, dual shoot is way better then shield piercing. If you complain about fort wars, well range is not worth it when you are on top, and they pile at door, or just stay close to wall.

That's what I'm doing all the time.

Originally Posted by Catelyn

Hunters are not fine on 1vs1, they are great. Hunters I hunt/talk with stay away from knights, but engage all other class. Of course if you wanna just rush on enemy and hit him, you better make a barb.

I want to be useful in fortwars, nothing else. I hope I'm not asking for too much.

Originally Posted by Catelyn

I'm sorry, but tricks at 11 for a hunter? Tricks is an awesome tree, you should check it sometimes. Lately I saw two alsuis hunters engage a group of four near herb, including a conj. They managed to kill one, and get away without loss. That was great, even though I was on the wrong side. They just took advantage of tricks spells, targeting the conjurer and got away with it.

Believe me, I've tried every possible setup. Confuse is useless in fortwars, distracting shot too. Caltrop is nice, yeah, but it's no worth to level tricks 19 because of this single spell. (And it's often useless, too, => mass dispel magic)