Thoughts on Fort-wars and Invasions

[_Arwen_]

Originally Posted by platyna

Doorless fort is simply hillarious, what is the point of fort then? Forts are to fortify.

The point of being in the fort is that you are surrounded by walls so you only have to defend 1 entrance, and even then you can move to the tower/wall if then enemy takes over the first floor. Correct me if I'm wrong but that's still considered fortification.

When you're caught out in the rain do you refuse to use an umbrella because it doesn't have a door?

Originally Posted by platyna

I think fort wars are cool, forts are easy to take anyway.

Regards.

Jump online any time from about 1AM - 5AM GMT and I can assure you, you won't say the same thing... (Syrtis Horus hours obviously, the "tough" hours for Ignis and Alsius are different).

[platyna]

Arwen all IRL forts has good doors.

Regards.

[_Nel_]

Arwen don't waste your time with platyna.
Doorless fort is a good idea for dynamism in the warzone.

[Malik2]

A few thoughts.

I really like the invasion tug-of-war timer idea.

But the idea of having doorless forts without your invasion idea would mean that we would simply be ivaded every night again as defending an upgraded efe has been a big part of what has held ignis off for so many weeks in June. So really if you do the forts you have to do the invasion suggestion as well.

I too have a difficult time wrapping my mind around a door-less fort as a fort should really have doors. At the same time, to bring a fort door down you really need more that arrows and in the old days I used to solo knock down efe's door as a hunter. So real life only tenuously applies.

I do think that if NGD wants to make warriors more vital they would create a skill in one of the weapon trees that acts like a battering ram, multiplying damage on doors, perhaps even in an area. This would seriously change the way fort wars were conducted, make doors less of an issue for Arwen's master plan, and increase the importance of warriors.

Interesting.

[_Arwen_]

Originally Posted by platyna

Arwen all IRL forts has good doors.

Regards.

Originally Posted by Malik2

I too have a difficult time wrapping my mind around a door-less fort as a fort should really have doors. At the same time, to bring a fort door down you really need more that arrows and in the old days I used to solo knock down efe's door as a hunter. So real life only tenuously applies.

Yea I understand in real life, doorless forts don't make much sense, but I seriously doubt NGD is going for a real life simulation, I mean mages....?

Actually along the same lines as "Real Life" I was thinking what else about fort-wars isn't really believable and I thought about the area spam. In RL if you jumped outside your fort and caused an earthquake, you'd hit your door as well. So that got me to thinking, what if the door acted like an enemy player in that area's can hit it. That way maybe allied area's outside the door could do 50% damage to the door if its in their area of effect. This would also allow allies to position their areas not to hit the door, which in turn would allow attackers a little more time to cancel the area, or move out of the way.

Originally Posted by _Nel_

Arwen don't waste your time with platyna.
Doorless fort is a good idea for dynamism in the warzone.

I don't mind people pointing out problems with anything I say, but there needs to be an explanation to back things up. If that requirement is met I have no issue addressing the point.

Originally Posted by Malik2

A few thoughts.

I really like the invasion tug-of-war timer idea.

But the idea of having doorless forts without your invasion idea would mean that we would simply be ivaded every night again as defending an upgraded efe has been a big part of what has held ignis off for so many weeks in June. So really if you do the forts you have to do the invasion suggestion as well.

Yea, if they do any of the fort implementations, they would have to be accompanied by the new timer. However, I think the new timer could be introduced into the current fort-war dyamics.

Originally Posted by Malik2

I do think that if NGD wants to make warriors more vital they would create a skill in one of the weapon trees that acts like a battering ram, multiplying damage on doors, perhaps even in an area. This would seriously change the way fort wars were conducted, make doors less of an issue for Arwen's master plan, and increase the importance of warriors.

Interesting.

I agree here, but I remember reading somewhere about having special warrior weapons that do extra damage to doors. I believe it was in one of SoL's posts. Or maybe, make weapons with fire damage do double to doors.

[e30G]

Instead of doorless forts, I'd like to see scalable walls where groups can sneak up behind the fort and surprise the defenders inside. NGD's tech demo shows it's possible with the new engine.

[Malik2]

I also like the scalable wall idea. A grapple and rope. Stand next to the wall cast the spell and climb up the wall.

An intersting skill idea for hunters or another thing to buy at the stable.

[Malik2]

Originally Posted by _Arwen_

Yea I understand in real life, doorless forts don't make much sense, but I seriously doubt NGD is going for a real life simulation, I mean mages....?

...

I agree here, but I remember reading somewhere about having special warrior weapons that do extra damage to doors. I believe it was in one of SoL's posts. Or maybe, make weapons with fire damage do double to doors.

I can go with you part of the way Arwen, but the whole point of a fort is to keep people out. And a pretty good door is usually one way to do that.

At the same time I have no problem making doors more vulnerable to attack as you and SOL have suggested or scaling walls etc. And by "have no problem" I mean concerend about the effect of these ideas of small numbers of defenders against large numbers of enemies, but open to the options.

Optimally a farily small number of people should be able to defend a fort against a large number of attackers. Any reasonable defensive fortification should do that.

[_Arwen_]

Originally Posted by Malik2

...but the whole point of a fort is to keep people out. And a pretty good door is usually one way to do that.

I do not disagree with this statement at all, I'm just saying that what makes sense in the real world, doesn't always translate to a game, since the real world is about staying alive, but the game is about having fun (I think some have forgotten this).

Originally Posted by Malik2

At the same time I have no problem making doors more vulnerable to attack as you and SOL have suggested or scaling walls etc. And by "have no problem" I mean concerend about the effect of these ideas of small numbers of defenders against large numbers of enemies, but open to the options.

Yea, I think making them more vulnerable is the ideal option.

Originally Posted by Malik2

Optimally a farily small number of people should be able to defend a fort against a large number of attackers. Any reasonable defensive fortification should do that.

This is what I mean by real world ideas don't translate to games very well. In the real world, easily defended forts are a great idea, however in a game a fort that allows a small army to defend against a large army has the nasty consequence of also alowing a larger defending army to be invulnerable to a smaller attacking army. Fort-wars in RO have started to sway towards this large defense vs small attack scenario because its more fun for the defending realm, and you get more RP this way...

I knew writing this up that it would be hard to convince people of my first fort-wars implementation, which is why I came up with the second one which still has doors on the forts, but also adjusts for a smaller attacking army. You're one of the late night crew (well late night my timezone) so I'm sure you understand where I'm coming from, we can spend hours trying to get Herb back and still never even get to the door, and when we do make it to the door, we just get area-spammed back to CS. I'm sure its this way for Alsius and Ignis too, just different times of the day.

[Malik2]

Originally Posted by _Arwen_

I knew writing this up that it would be hard to convince people of my first fort-wars implementation, which is why I came up with the second one which still has doors on the forts, but also adjusts for a smaller attacking army. You're one of the late night crew (well late night my timezone) so I'm sure you understand where I'm coming from, we can spend hours trying to get Herb back and still never even get to the door, and when we do make it to the door, we just get area-spammed back to CS. I'm sure its this way for Alsius and Ignis too, just different times of the day.

I can certainly see where you are coming from. But the issue I think is that a larger force will always have the upper hand because of numbers. The night crew has difficulties taking herb because they allow ignis with its larger numbers to dictate the terms of the encounter. Attacking a larger force holding any fort with a smaller force of lower levels should be regarded as kind of dumb. But we do it with surprising regularly and expect a non-logical outcome.

Making forts easier to capture is a sword that cuts two ways. Sure small attacking groups can get an upper hand, but at the same time larger forces will have that much more leverage.