GameSamba's hall of shameless condemnation - Page 10

erttzzadfk · 09-14-2012, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaylos

Rather than say "other games use them and have low amounts of cheaters" Cite examples, otherwise it is meaningless.

Games using Steam:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Steam_games
Games using Punkbuster:
http://www.pbbans.com/mbi.php
The publisher of Dragona, Cross Fire, Twelve Sky2, Special Force, Weapons of War:
http://forums.gameclub.ph/index.php?topic=193549.0
**(Wow is a good example with plugins like that: http://www.curse.com/addons/wow/black-list-siv0968)
..use google to find out yourself.

I didnt say they have a low amount of cheaters. There's no game left with a low amount of cheaters - that's the problem..
12 million users playing via Steam. 700.000 users official said "i'm cheating".
That's what i told you.
Our game here hasnt an active Anticheat-Shield. So do you really wanna tell me cheating isnt a problem in this game...?^^
Or do you wanna tell me there would be the same number of cheaters at games using Steams VAC or Punkbuster without Anticheat-Shield?
Tell me the reason why publishers put so much money in smth like that..^^
I know the answer what would happen to all this games in a very short time, cause i played there a long time
(had 3 gameservers running there before i started to play Regnum 4 years ago).
So dont try to tell me something like that and it would be nice if you wouldnt call me a troll - cause im not.

I dont know many popular game servers without an active anticheat-shield, banlist or smth like that; what could be the reason?

Vaylos · 09-14-2012, 09:34 AM

Okay, I'll bite, maybe you're not a troll.

Nobody said cheating is not a problem in this game, quite the contrary. People are saying that the ban list really doesn't help in removing the problem of cheating. If anything it aggravates the situation. It is a step sideways, not a step forward.

Honestly I don't know if RO has an anti-cheat shield or not. Supposedly they do have a basic layer implemented, at least against the cheat engine software, but as often as that program gets updated, the anti-cheat shield is probably not as effective as it could be, but it probably does prevent the more obvious hacks.

And I'm curious as to why the cheat shield was brought up? We're strictly talking about a list of names, and it's effectiveness, not a software implementation of a cheat prevention system. (although having such a layer, or an improved tool, or auto-ban sort of thing might not be a bad idea)

@Seher, yeah, I know, I know. ;P

Edit: Did some google searching.

I did some searching, and even Runescape, of all games, took down an official ban list because (copy/pasted from a forum post) http://services.runescape.com/m=foru...722982,goto,72 The post is towards the bottom of the page.
--------------
There is no official public Jagex "suspicion list", because if they really knew who was who I would hope that they would ban them and not just keep a list.

At one point, Jagex was keeping a public ban-list, but they pulled it down because it simply encouraged people to act like clowns who where trying to be "most wanted"..
---------------

I did some further search queries via google trying to locate games with official company-sanctioned ban lists.....not user-generated ban lists.....and I have been unable to find such postings at least within the first few pages of the search. I might have to look deeper or peek around official forums.

My point, is public lists of user names who are permanently banned are not needed. They detract from the quality of the community. I mean, hell, if RUNESCAPE of all games removed the official ban list, you KNOW the list cannot be a good idea. (I mean, Jagex is not exactly a pristine company to start with)

53453467734534 · 09-14-2012, 10:24 AM

A company shouldn´t create a ban list. This is witch hunting, may encourage
trolls and looks unconfident to my way of thinking.

And i really don´t think, that save camping should be a bannable offence.
RO is a war game, not a friendly PVE grinder. Altar guards are present to "punish" you, if you overact. If that is still not enough, how about necrostacy, or negative realm points (again). But this has to be regulated ingame.

Shwish · 09-14-2012, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torcida

Honestly don't you guys have anything better to do then to complain about this?

This guy deserves a +1.

erttzzadfk · 09-14-2012, 11:43 AM

I had a second look to your example. It's good...have a look what the players are thinking although there is an anticheat.
Perhaps you'll find an answer why some publishers act like this...http://www.sythe.org/showthread.php?t=628624

If Regnum would have a real anticheatshield they would post its name everywhere. In the starter, on the first site...etc.
So there is no known mechanism to prevent cheating instead of having to react.
What kind of instruments do we've got against cheating, bugusing, etc atm...?
1. GMs
- at GameSamba-Servers 24/7 and payed
- at gamigo servers they are players. Doing this job without getting money. Sometimes seen in the realms - not seen in wz - perhaps there sometimes too, perhaps not.

2. Players making screens, videos and send them to GMs/MODs without getting an answer what was finally done. Perhaps they see still see the other player all the time in game by thinking "ok, why did i make this screens/vids?" but it's really not often that someone who sends screens, vids will get out what was done with these informations and why.

So it's a system, based on the players themselves. Reason: GMs cant be everywhere, everytime. And it's important to keep such a system running by keeping the trust of the players.
You cant keep all players trusting in something is done if there's nothing they notice. But they notice other players writing all the time in the forums "nothing was done my screens or videos".
I dont say they are all right. I dont say everybody who reported something was right by thinking "i was punked by a cheater".
But every single post makes such a playerbased system weaker.

That's why i think it's important to make it more transparent. But how?
- A banlist
- Informations to reporting players what was finally done.
- Writing in "News" we banned 50 people last year doesnt help to keep players believing enough in this system to keep them reporting.
And when they stop reporting, this very basic system is down too and nothing left against cheating in this game except some players using their free time to fill out the GM-job or some payed GMs, hoping the players believe them.

I think gamigo has reached this point. And GameSamba made a step in the other direction now.

I would prefer GameSamba simply call this list "Ban List" to make it not that easy attackable with beautiful words like "wichhunt", that makes us close our eyes for the whole and needed process of sanctions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaylos

Supposedly they do have a basic layer implemented, at least against the cheat engine software, but as often as that program gets updated, the anti-cheat shield is probably not as effective as it could be, but it probably does prevent the more obvious hacks.

PS: Tell me how you get any information there would be such a basic layer?
Im really very interested in this question.

roonwick · 09-14-2012, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 53453467734534

A company shouldn´t create a ban list. This is witch hunting, may encourage
trolls and looks unconfident to my way of thinking.

And i really don´t think, that save camping should be a bannable offence.
RO is a war game, not a friendly PVE grinder. Altar guards are present to "punish" you, if you overact. If that is still not enough, how about necrostacy, or negative realm points (again). But this has to be regulated ingame.

negative RP doesnt do anything... negative wm coins however are a different kettle of tea.. or not being able to finish quests for 24 hours...

erttzzadfk · 09-14-2012, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roonwick

negative RP doesnt do anything... negative wm coins however are a different kettle of tea.. or not being able to finish quests for 24 hours...

Could be done by the game mechanism. Guards at all binds. (Some players already are wms on wm-horses..)
There is just a little problem. The positions of some binds atm.
Too near to the castles and would disturb or disbalance battles.
The old positions would not have caused such a problem.
I dont see a problem if i wouldnt be able to finish wm-quests in 24h , when all other players have the same problem btw.

Vaylos · 09-14-2012, 06:46 PM

The information was brought up on a thread during one of the larger update phases. I don't remember which one, but it was about a year and a half, maybe 2 years ago? People were mentioning using cheat engine or blatant hacking, and someone on NGD's side mentioned something about having something in place to help prevent it. I don't remember names or which thread it was, but I think it was mentioned during one of the larger update phases.

That's all I remember, and that discussion was the first time I had heard of the cheat engine program. *shrug* wish I could be more specific, but I just don't remember.

Raoh · 09-14-2012, 07:00 PM

I say, take the Rockstar solution.

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/201...cheaters.shtml

Cheaters wont play against themselves, nor get anywhere.

From the Article

Quote:

Anyone found to have used hacked saves, modded games, or other exploits to gain an unfair advantage in Max Payne 3 Multiplayer, or to circumvent the leaderboards will be quarantined from all other players into a "Cheaters Pool", where they'll only be able to compete in multiplayer matches with other confirmed miscreants. In the event we decide to absolve any of these cheaters for their past transgressions they may re-enter play with the general public, however a second offense will result in their indefinite banishment. In either case, we will be removing invalid leaderboard entries to ensure that the players at the top of the charts have earned their spots fairly.

erttzzadfk · 09-14-2012, 09:44 PM

@Vaylos: Ok, i see. I was thinking you get it out yourself "learning by doing".
After explaining me now, how you get this information im really sorry to have thought smth like that!

@Raoh: I'm really surprised to read something constructive in here.

It's not the first time i'm talking about this topic and i never heard about this rockstar solution before. Sounds very interesting and could be an option to handle this topic.
I dont think there will be enough interest to get money for another server. But we've got the testserver Amun and players are needed to play there.
Perhaps it would be possible to put this "cheater pool" we are talking about there step by step.
Not every cheater is just using complete programs like c* e* or smth like that. Some are interested in coding too - so perhaps it would be a chance for a constructive and finally helpful contact between cheaters and developers too, while having enough players to test updates there without losing customers and i'm sure it would be fair too to replace these players from the "normal" ranking to an "own" ranking this way.
@NGD-Team: What do you think about this idea?

09-14-2012, 09:34 AM	#92
Vaylos Banned Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Coralville, IA Posts: 202	Okay, I'll bite, maybe you're not a troll. Nobody said cheating is not a problem in this game, quite the contrary. People are saying that the ban list really doesn't help in removing the problem of cheating. If anything it aggravates the situation. It is a step sideways, not a step forward. Honestly I don't know if RO has an anti-cheat shield or not. Supposedly they do have a basic layer implemented, at least against the cheat engine software, but as often as that program gets updated, the anti-cheat shield is probably not as effective as it could be, but it probably does prevent the more obvious hacks. And I'm curious as to why the cheat shield was brought up? We're strictly talking about a list of names, and it's effectiveness, not a software implementation of a cheat prevention system. (although having such a layer, or an improved tool, or auto-ban sort of thing might not be a bad idea) @Seher, yeah, I know, I know. ;P Edit: Did some google searching. I did some searching, and even Runescape, of all games, took down an official ban list because (copy/pasted from a forum post) http://services.runescape.com/m=foru...722982,goto,72 The post is towards the bottom of the page. -------------- There is no official public Jagex "suspicion list", because if they really knew who was who I would hope that they would ban them and not just keep a list. At one point, Jagex was keeping a public ban-list, but they pulled it down because it simply encouraged people to act like clowns who where trying to be "most wanted".. --------------- I did some further search queries via google trying to locate games with official company-sanctioned ban lists.....not user-generated ban lists.....and I have been unable to find such postings at least within the first few pages of the search. I might have to look deeper or peek around official forums. My point, is public lists of user names who are permanently banned are not needed. They detract from the quality of the community. I mean, hell, if RUNESCAPE of all games removed the official ban list, you KNOW the list cannot be a good idea. (I mean, Jagex is not exactly a pristine company to start with) Last edited by Vaylos; 09-14-2012 at 10:24 AM.

09-14-2012, 10:24 AM	#93
53453467734534 Initiate Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 130	A company shouldn´t create a ban list. This is witch hunting, may encourage trolls and looks unconfident to my way of thinking. And i really don´t think, that save camping should be a bannable offence. RO is a war game, not a friendly PVE grinder. Altar guards are present to "punish" you, if you overact. If that is still not enough, how about necrostacy, or negative realm points (again). But this has to be regulated ingame. __________________ If you want to change something, everybody will complain. So do nothing? Wrong! That´s the only case they will complain even more

09-14-2012, 06:46 PM	#98
Vaylos Banned Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Coralville, IA Posts: 202	The information was brought up on a thread during one of the larger update phases. I don't remember which one, but it was about a year and a half, maybe 2 years ago? People were mentioning using cheat engine or blatant hacking, and someone on NGD's side mentioned something about having something in place to help prevent it. I don't remember names or which thread it was, but I think it was mentioned during one of the larger update phases. That's all I remember, and that discussion was the first time I had heard of the cheat engine program. shrug wish I could be more specific, but I just don't remember.

09-14-2012, 09:44 PM	#100
erttzzadfk Banned Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: C4NN!B4L & quod licet iovi - non licet bovi Posts: 143	@Vaylos: Ok, i see. I was thinking you get it out yourself "learning by doing". After explaining me now, how you get this information im really sorry to have thought smth like that! @Raoh: I'm really surprised to read something constructive in here. It's not the first time i'm talking about this topic and i never heard about this rockstar solution before. Sounds very interesting and could be an option to handle this topic. I dont think there will be enough interest to get money for another server. But we've got the testserver Amun and players are needed to play there. Perhaps it would be possible to put this "cheater pool" we are talking about there step by step. Not every cheater is just using complete programs like c* e* or smth like that. Some are interested in coding too - so perhaps it would be a chance for a constructive and finally helpful contact between cheaters and developers too, while having enough players to test updates there without losing customers and i'm sure it would be fair too to replace these players from the "normal" ranking to an "own" ranking this way. @NGD-Team: What do you think about this idea?