balance Update 2011 Stage 1 - Summary

[53453467734534]

@Seher

True. Wasn't BoW range 30 or something like that? (Or even 25)

Range "0" isn´t the same anymore, because of Marksmans range enhancement patch. Anyway, restore old balance between Marksmen and Warlocks.

It is horrible balance, that the Dizzy spell of one class (Marksman), that is far less susceptible to Dizziness because of stronger normal hits and protective spells (SotW), has more range and faster cast time.

That's why we need an update of the current spell system, it's just too restrictive. (Spells shouldn't have 5 levels if they don't come naturally)

Personally, I like scaling (this system). That´s why i suggested the same for
WM spells.

Anyway this whole discussion is kind of besides the point, it's impossible to predict all influences correctly on a that complicated matter. You'd have to test whether 2/4 second knock downs are enough to not frustrate outnumbered armies, if it is, everything is perfect, if it isn't, go back to 6 seconds.

"We" can test it with 6 seconds, and if it is still not enough, reduce the duration further. :P Better testing procedure in my opinion.

I think this...

"Knocks duration (all knocks, not only warrior) would be:

5: 6 seconds : 2 hits very slow weapon , 3 hits medium weapon
4: 5 seconds : 2 hits slow weapon , 3 hits fast weapon
3: 4 seconds : 2 hits medium weapon
2: 3,5 seconds: 2 hits fast weapon
1: 3 seconds : 1 hit everyone

Now, it´s: 8,7,6,5,4
It would be a nerf"


...makes perfect sense in this game. At least as far as i can see.

Investing 5 powerpoints to gain only one free hit (only in certain situations, if your opponent has no CC protection), and risking a resist, while your opponent uses "South Cross" and 5 points for damage enhancement...That doesn´t pay anymore.
Not forgetting, that RO has asymmetric warfare (explained in last posts)
and knocks are needed in front of the door.

Taken as a whole CCs are fun. Balance them, but don´t nerf them into oblivion.Enough has been said

[_Nel_]

Originally Posted by 53453467734534

Taken as a whole CCs are fun. Balance them, but don´t nerf them into oblivion.Enough has been said

I guess you're new and never heard about balance hammer.


(of course, this is the smallest one for surgical strike)

[Seher]

Originally Posted by 53453467734534

"We" can test it with 6 seconds, and if it is still not enough, reduce the duration further. :P Better testing procedure in my opinion.

6 seconds knocks are still frustrating in RvR situations, I'm 100% sure of that, (and think of the other CCs, they'd all have to last MUCH longer than knocks and cause problems, too) but I'm not sure if shorter durations work out well.

Originally Posted by 53453467734534

"Knocks duration (all knocks, not only warrior) would be:

5: 6 seconds : 2 hits very slow weapon , 3 hits medium weapon
4: 5 seconds : 2 hits slow weapon , 3 hits fast weapon
3: 4 seconds : 2 hits medium weapon
2: 3,5 seconds: 2 hits fast weapon
1: 3 seconds : 1 hit everyone

Now, it´s: 8,7,6,5,4
It would be a nerf"


...makes perfect sense in this game. At least as far as i can see.

That already is the smallest possible scaling from 1 to 5 (kind of), you see how restricting this system is? I really don't think you can scale all spells well without making them useless at lower levels. A 3 seconds knock down without additional damage (!) is at least questionable. When there are 6 second ones around.

Originally Posted by 53453467734534

Investing 5 powerpoints to gain only one free hit (only in certain situations, if your opponent has no CC protection), and risking a resist, while your opponent uses "South Cross" and 5 points for damage enhancement...That doesn´t pay anymore.

1. It does when your knock down has 100% weapon damage. (Really needed imo, to make knocks both useful for PvP, where it's really just about "free hits", and not overpowered for RvR)
2. It always does in RvR combat. Knocks actually have prevented many tactics so far, you've next to never seen a (damage) spike, everyone just presses their knock buttons like crazy, and even one knock is enough most of the time, so not even CC spikes are needed.

In RvR combat it's not about "free hits", it's about trying to increase the time a withdrawing enemy has to stay close to your army/your warriors, and every second is very important there. There's stacking in fort wars, which makes all spells more powerful, and especially those that keep foes from running away/casting defensive buffs because you don't just have stacking effects then but stacking damage as well.

Originally Posted by 53453467734534

Taken as a whole CCs are fun.

6 second knock downs aren't :P

[Vroek]

Controlling your environment and being aware of its risks is half the game.
I love how hard you get punished for being in the wrong place now.

I dont think any CCs are especially OP, some class based tweaks, some minor duration and effect changes is more than enough, mostly it balances out nicely and awareness is rewarded.

It far better this way than a completely item, damage and number influenced battle.
Obviously more CCs mean easier wins. But too weak CC effects, the chances to actually out play a numerous opponent will diminish further.

The risks of nerfing CC too much are apparent to me, it will simply favour the wrong players.

[Seher]

And too long CCs favor those who just spam their kick (5). :/ It is VERY difficult to just favor the "right" ones. (Who is the right one anyway?)

Much testing needed (live server testing), but I still think it's better to bring both more luck and skill into normal damage than to stick to long CC durations. Many new spells that deal more damage if xxx and xxx (let's say slowed down enemies), that's just the same luck and skill factor like CCs, but less frustrating at fort wars, because it just stacks its own damage, and doesn't increase the damage others deal like CCs do.

[Vroek]

Originally Posted by Seher

And too long CCs favor those who just spam their kick (5). :/ It is VERY difficult to just favor the "right" ones. (Who is the right one anyway?)

The difference is that everyone can level their CCs up and play their class from the best of their abilities.
Its not something you can buy from the item shop or something that is decided because your realm happen to be heavily active at that specific time.

I dont necessarily feel that a high level knock or CC have to be frustrating, since what it all boil down to risk assessment, awareness making sure you in a good position, correctly buffed and have enough allies that aid you or threat potential attackers. The day its not possible to beat numbers, a player with a pet/summon or someone with a credit card I will be extremely frustrated.

[Seher]

I'm not saying remove the possibility to beat numbers, to kill a player with a pet/summon or someone with a credit card, nor do I suggest to decrease the luck factor radically, I just said there are better ways to achieve it than long CCs.

(As for items - just removing the damn absolute armor reduction would help a LOT more than any CC, that would be a huge nerf of all items)
And by the way - pets and summons are supposed to be fighting, that's why their owners are weaker.

[bois]

CC is designed to give a slight advantage in combat. The other facets like debuff opponent/ buff self does this as well. After that, equipment/level variances. After that skill/positioning/ luck.

CC should not be something to lock opponent in cycle that never ends with them having no chance. All it should do is give you slight advantage. The more CC you apply should yield diminishing returns.

Long CC + high resist chance balanced out. Not perfect but it worked.

Resist/evade etc under knock was a bulkhead against damage/ debuff. It resulted in a form of balance.

Long CC ,slower attack speeds, slower game, somehow worked out.

So, a lot of folks forget, resistance was reduced, the game movement was sped up, attack speed increased, resist/evade/block eliminated under knock, range increased. Yet CC must stay the same? It is all good ? Or is it all too easy? If so many other facets were modified (note some were not nerfed ) , why not CC? Or is it we are all drunk on the sweet sugary goodness that excessive CC provides? So much so that we can't possibly figure out how to play if they somehow got modified downwards.

So I say modify CC. Not nerf, modify. If it results in a reduction or different implementation so be it.

[Vroek]

Originally Posted by Seher

I'm not saying remove the possibility to beat numbers, to kill a player with a pet/summon or someone with a credit card, nor do I suggest to decrease the luck factor radically, I just said there are better ways to achieve it than long CCs.

(As for items - just removing the damn absolute armor reduction would help a LOT more than any CC, that would be a huge nerf of all items)
And by the way - pets and summons are supposed to be fighting, that's why their owners are weaker.

I didnt imply that this was what you desired. Im just expressing my opinion on the potential unwanted side effects for too short CCs since i havent really seen anyone touch the subject.

You can already equip your armor with 70 Euro worth of resist enchantments, shifting balance between CCs and damage dealing will increase item dependence regardless.
Changing form absolute armor would be an extreme amount of rebalance and work for NGD, it not really likely to happen. Its not the same as tuning some CCs a little.

[Seher]

Originally Posted by Vroek

You can already equip your armor with 70 Euro worth of resist enchantments, shifting balance between CCs and damage dealing will increase item dependence regardless.

You don't even have to shift balance more to dealing damage. Long knock downs (yes, 6 seconds is very long for a knock down) make many other effects useless or at least weak compared to them. (beetle swarm just lasts 1 second longer than will domain? Orly?) We need more CCs that just affect SOME of your abilities, like cannot move/attack, slows, etc, but no long lasting knock downs.

Originally Posted by Vroek

Changing form absolute armor would be an extreme amount of rebalance and work for NGD, it not really likely to happen.

Sad but true. :/ It would be a nice solution for so many problems...