Marksman armor levels (again)

[UmarilsStillHere]

whod of thunk it?

[Valorius]

Originally Posted by magnet

I have to point out the new exact same poll for which you voted Valorius:
http://www.regnumonline.com.ar/forum...ad.php?t=22304

At this moment:
#1 Hunters: 33
#2 Marksmen: 23
#3 Barbarians: 9
#4 Warlocks and Knights ex aequo: 7
#6 Conjurers: 4

Quite explicit, isn't it? Please note that in Spanish they don't use "overpowered" but desbalanceado which means unbalanced; at first the poll was "which class is most unbalanced", and some Knights and others voted Knights and Warlocks for "desbalanceado negativemente" (negatively unbalanced), the poll was later edited that it was about positive unbalance "desbalanceado positivemente". I'm sure the Archers could have reached even highers levels

Hunters have been nerfed time and again since i started playing. I have no doubt that they will be nerfed again, whether it's right or wrong.

Some aspects of hunters are probably a little out of balance, but i think the reason hunters get so many votes is not because of imbalance, but because a clever hunter can be EXTREMELY FRUSTRATING to play against because of their ability to escape from almost any situation.

Escaping from a barb/hunter or 2x barb pursuit tandem is pretty much impossible for hunters now, but for anyone else, we can get away pretty much at will. So, hunter shows up, shoots your buddy while you lvl, kills him, then disappears or takes off running like the wind, it seems like they're 'invincible' to many players.

Marksmen however, are like hunters with double the firepower, numerous skills that can ignore even spells like army of one or steel skin (such as serpent bite, tear apart, break apart, ethereal arrow and arcana strike), 80% MORE armor than hunters, and just 15% less speed than hunters have. They have every single evasion and offensive attack skill a hunter gets except ensnare arrow(a spell that was improved for hunters, and one that i've openly stated is now too strong. So i DO try to be objective and fair, this is not about "me"). Marksmen also have the longest range, a variety of extremely powerful area attacks, death sentence(one of the most potent attack spells in the entire game) and recharged arrows.

[magnet]

Originally Posted by Valorius

Hunters have been nerfed time and again since i started playing. I have no doubt that they will be nerfed again, whether it's right or wrong.

Some aspects of hunters are probably a little out of balance, but i think the reason hunters get so many votes is not because of imbalance, but because a clever hunter can be EXTREMELY FRUSTRATING to play against because of their ability to escape from almost any situation.

Escaping from a barb/hunter or 2x barb pursuit tandem is pretty much impossible for hunters now, but for anyone else, we can get away pretty much at will. So, hunter shows up, shoots your buddy while you lvl, kills him, then disappears or takes off running like the wind, it seems like they're 'invincible' to many players.

Marksmen however, are like hunters with double the firepower, numerous skills that can ignore even spells like army of one or steel skin (such as serpent bite, tear apart, break apart, ethereal arrow and arcana strike), 80% MORE armor than hunters, and just 15% less speed than hunters have. They have every single evasion and offensive attack skill a hunter gets except ensnare arrow(a spell that was improved for hunters, and one that i've openly stated is now too strong. So i DO try to be objective and fair, this is not about "me"). Marksmen also have the longest range, a variety of extremely powerful area attacks, death sentence(one of the most potent attack spells in the entire game) and recharged arrows.

You have no idea how those 15% speed and camouflage make up for not being a Marksman. I think Marskmen are more overpowered only because a Hunter's base attack is quite low. However they deserve the 2nd overpowered class trophy in my mind. It's easy; just remove the luck spells that I said in the other thread (SotW, Dodge, Spell Eludes), you can keep cat reflexes . And have the passive speed back to 10% (if Evasion is removed you can keep it to 15% maybe ).

As Blood said, you're fooling yourself if you don't see that the same problem with Marksmen exist with Hunters.

[ljwolfe]

hunter's damage isn't that bad. I was getting hit for 250+ last night by hunters despite having acrobat, strategic position both up.

[Valorius]

Originally Posted by magnet

You have no idea how those 15% speed and camouflage make up for not being a Marksman. I think Marskmen are more overpowered only because a Hunter's base attack is quite low. However they deserve the 2nd overpowered class trophy in my mind. It's easy; just remove the luck spells that I said in the other thread (SotW, Dodge, Spell Eludes), you can keep cat reflexes . And have the passive speed back to 10% (if Evasion is removed you can keep it to 15% maybe ).

As Blood said, you're fooling yourself if you don't see that the same problem with Marksmen exist with Hunters.

Cat reflexes doesn't even seem to work, to be honest. I have no idea what Blood said, he is on my ignore list.

Take away SOTW, Dodge, and Spell elude, and you'd have to give a hunter marksman like offense for him to have any chance at all. In fact, even if you gave a hunter all of a marksmans offense, he would still have 80% less armor than the marksman anyway (which is also the case now). Also, without spell elude, hunters are easy pickings for warlocks. Once dizzied a hunters base attack is so low that if the hunter didn't evade most of the warlocks spells the hunter would be dead long before the hunter could defeat the warlock or escape. A dizzied hunter is extremely limited in firepower, it is only the hunters high evasion rates that lets him survive at all in dizzied situations. A marksman on the other hand has all the defense of a hunter, 80% MORE armor, and offensive capabilities and range 2nd to none.

A hunter may be 15% faster than a marksman, but the marksman also has a 45 max range potential.

The new camoflage is extremely limited because of the cast time, and for offense it really doesn't give you any added bonus or special damgage like it does in WoW, for instance. In WoW, a rogue attacking from cloak with "ambush" does +300% weapon dmg. In order for Camo to ever really be an offensive skill, the first attack from camo would have to have a significant attack bonus, like it does in WoW. In WoW, invisibility is truly an offensive capability.

In Regnum, it is far more useful for defense, and far less so than it used to be.

[magnet]

Originally Posted by Valorius

Cat reflexes doesn't even seem to work, to be honest. I have no idea what Blood said, he is on my ignore list.

Take away SOTW, Dodge, and Spell elude, and you'd have to give a hunter marksman like offense for him to have any chance at all. In fact, even if you gave a hunter all of a marksmans offense, he would still have 80% less armor than the marksman anyway (which is also the case now). Also, without spell elude, hunters are easy pickings for warlocks. Once dizzied a hunters base attack is so low that if the hunter didn't evade most of the warlocks spells the hunter would be dead long before the hunter could defeat the warlock or escape. A dizzied hunter is extremely limited in firepower, it is only the hunters high evasion rates that lets him survive at all in dizzied situations. A marksman on the other hand has all the defense of a hunter, 80% MORE armor, and offensive capabilities and range 2nd to none.

A hunter may be 15% faster than a marksman, but the marksman also has a 45 max range potential.

The new camoflage is extremely limited because of the cast time, and for offense it really doesn't give you any added bonus or special damgage like it does in WoW, for instance. In WoW, a rogue attacking from cloak with "ambush" does +300% weapon dmg. In order for Camo to ever really be an offensive skill, the first attack from camo would have to have a significant attack bonus, like it does in WoW. In WoW, invisibility is truly an offensive capability.

In Regnum, it is far more useful for defense, and far less so than it used to be.

I replied in the "sister" thread since it was the same topic.

http://www.regnumonline.com.ar/forum...8&postcount=39

[DkySven]

Valorious, keep in mind that this is not WoW.

[Valorius]

I compare regnum to WoW- the most popular MMO game on the planet- as a 'bench mark' standard, or a relevant parallel.

WoW has a couple things that i really don't like (the respawn after death rules makes battles largely futile, and it's just tooooo much grinding), but it is a great game, and there would be nothing wrong with Regnum using it for inspiration/guildance in some of these matters. I've also compared Regnum to other MMOs as well. Soon i will be playing guild wars, and i'm sure i will in the future make comparisons to that as well.

BTW Magnet, removing SOTW takes away a VERY VERY useful 15% speed burst from Hunters- one that is neccesary to outrun barbs on foot. Since so many others want to take away Camo too, a hunter would be utterly unable to escape most of the situations he can now, and would need massive offensive revamping.

In effect, you would have created a 2nd marksman class.

If one does want to make Invis a truly offensive spell then i would suggest leaving cast time unchanged for camo, making it impossible to cast it while under SOTW, reducing mana cost and cooldown, and giving it a huge offensive attack 1st hit bonus like onslaught gives.

But to be honest, i'd rather just have the old camo back.

If Spell Elude was removed, i'd probably just stop playing again. I have no desire to be a warlocks plaything.

[Envy]

Originally Posted by Valorius

BTW Magnet, removing SOTW takes away a VERY VERY useful 15% speed burst from Hunters- one that is neccesary to outrun barbs on foot. Since so many others want to take away Camo too, a hunter would be utterly unable to escape most of the situations he can now, and would need massive offensive revamping.

In effect, you would have created a 2nd marksman class.

If one does want to make Invis a truly offensive spell then i would suggest leaving cast time unchanged for camo, making it impossible to cast it while under SOTW, reducing mana cost and cooldown, and giving it a huge offensive attack 1st hit bonus like onslaught gives.

I would be fine with SotW if it lived up to it's description. I'd want the evasion only to apply when moving, and perhaps there would be a second or so of a warm up period when you start moving. That way it would not be as effective being used to tank and attack, and wouldn't allow for the SotW + Camo annoyance. I'd even be fine with it being a Hunter only skill. Alas I haven't thought about it too much, and there are a lot of SotW/Camo suggestions out there.

How can you be moving as fast as the wind while not... moving?

[El_Naso]

I´m sorry, I can´t help asking... why in hell haven´t you made a marks yet val? All you ever do when mentioning them is complain that they are soo overpowered. I get it, we have twice the defences and twice the attack, plus the arrow mastery tree, but instead of all that you´d rether have speed, camo and pets (my memory sucks, you used to have pets but now you don´t, right?).

I don´t mean this as flaming, It just seems to me that you want to play as a marks rather than a hunter.

Now, on topic,

Originally Posted by El_Naso

...
I personally think that tunning down the evasion marks get from dex is the right way to go. With [a little] less evasion we´d be more vulnerable to battle decisive spells such as knocks, drains, debuffs, dizzy, stun, freeze and so on, making ridiculously high armor matter much less. Another one is to add an evasion penalty (say, 30%?) to strategic position...

PS: hunters haven´t been always nerfed. They have unique abilities and and that´s why they need to be revised more often. There was a time when wild spirit was +10% movment speed. Remember that.