Why classes become overpowered

[Static_Fang]

Originally Posted by DemonMonger

Those who are wise in tactics shape how we see classes as overpowered or underpowered....

Yup, i can almost kill most lvl 50 warlocks (DM excluded), only being lvl 43 ^^
Some classes have strong and weak points, like the Marks Etherel Arrow against a mage takes away the advantage of energy barrier...doesnt make them overpowers...
When warlocks get hurt, we can steal ypur hp, so its like u did damage to urself, not overpowered, just a strong point...
ect...

[Signatus]

Originally Posted by magnet

Not at all. Some classes are overpowered. I played all day with my level 45 Marksman and killed a lot of level 50 (Hunters & Mages are extra easy) with no sweat. Warriors are trickier but they usually give up when I cast Escapist then SotW... And evade half of their attacks.

Here it goes: Warlock or Warjurer sees me. Attacks me. Me resists. Me evades. But during that time I casted Death Sentence, starting taking my range back while casting Serpents bite, a few hits with recharge arrows (300 to 600 critical on mages), when they're low, they go for energy barrier, oh too bad, I cast Ethereal arrow, you dead anyway!

I had a Warlock lv 50 cast me Golem Fist lv 5.. That's 1000 hps on my lv 50 warlock, was 500 on my lv 45 marks! Would be OK if the Marks didnt do as many dmg as the Warlock, but he does.

I make sure to keep some mana for Low pro if stuff goes bad so my allies can finish them during 7s... Or if there are too many enemies, I'll just go in SotW and enjoy the battle for 20s while everyone is getting killed around me.. Yeeppeeeeeeeee.

With hunters it depends but it's mostly easy for the Marks, and I don't use Confuse.

Don't fool yourself. Some classes are overpowered. I know 'cause I play 5 out of 6 (2 lv 50, 1 lv 48, 1 lv 45 and 1 low 40).

I had the same experience with my Hunter but on a lesser scale since I didn't kill level 50 so easily... but with hunters you don't care, you camou and go kill lower levels or people with 10% hps (better if they're resting, it might be troublesome if they start attacking back!).

What you claim does not invalidate the statement 1st posted.

It may happen that you are the best player that has ever played this game, thus being merely unbeatable with whichever class you choose to play.

OR

It may happen that you are a best player then the adversaries you found...

OR

(I don't remember anything else interesting to say about this)

Now, Marks VS Barb, both lvl 50 it's 50% for each when well played... actually goes more for barb side if Marks cast DS first and think that can regain range with escapist running through the Barb (I experienced this 1st hand, and saw it happen, and got similar opinions from marks 50). Of course that if a Marks resist/evade a particular move he gets the upper hand but the good thing about barbs is... 1000+ normal dmg... when not evaded. I've personally seen a Marks 50 getting beaten repeatedly by a Barb 6 lvls below at the Arena... naturally the set used by the Marks wasn't the best for the situation and after it was corrected he was able to take the Barb out.

Marks Vs Knights, I was 8 lvls below and *naturally* I lost, but nor before taking the marks down to 1/4 below hp. On the other hand a lvl after I was able to beat a lvl 50 marks without full hp (it was his call not mine!) on something pretty much like pvp (I was running after him and when he got enough distance he casted the defenses and tried to regain range running through me... bad call). But more often then I wished I get "You killed /yourself" after an ethereal...

Marks Vs Mages I have no idea.

Marks Vs Hunters... short fast for the start and short medium to finish, naturally the hunter will need to leave the camu "inside" him or else he will be utterly pawned, never had (much) problems with them as long as they had the same lvl as me (but yes, I died enough times... well not quite, I ran before dying)... the worst is... now there aren't much of them on WZ below 50...

But yes, Marks are a very good class... specially because they kill me often!

Well, back to grinding.

[CumeriTarenes]

Either you think this:

Originally Posted by Mattdoesrock

Not because I dont want to agree with you, but it takes out the / my arguement of; "Damn they beat me! That class / spell is so overpowered."

When in reality its perhaps not because they're over powered, but because they're a better / smarter player.

Or this:

Originally Posted by Mattdoesrock

To magnet - I didnt say that I didnt think certain classes were overpowered, as I do . Having spent half of yesterday and half of today in the arena against Marks, I can now say that I think they are overpowered.

I am confused...

Originally Posted by magnet

Here it goes: Warlock or Warjurer sees me. Attacks me. Me resists. Me evades. But during that time I casted Death Sentence, starting taking my range back while casting Serpents bite, a few hits with recharge arrows (300 to 600 critical on mages), when they're low, they go for energy barrier, oh too bad, I cast Ethereal arrow, you dead anyway!

erm...cast wind wall and the marks will miss death sentence most probably...and if not, go near to the marks and death sentence is useless, at least when no other ranged classes are attacking you. And you want to protect yourself from taking high damage? You can have 1000 hp every 40 sec (energy barrier), you can cast protection dome. Once you lost hp or mana you can steal it from your enemy.
I agree, that when a marks sees a mage first the mage will have a bad time when the marks casts burst of wind at long range. But when someone sees another one first the agressor has always an advantage, no matter which class vs. which class.

Also you should consider that archers are the only class that has no auras/area ally spells all all. That means they are designed in a way that allows them to be more powerfull than other classes with single target/area enemy spells. But actually warocks spells are more powerful in the result, just lower range and longer casting time makes warlocks spells loosing some power.

I also don't think that marksmen's defence is too good. The only odd game design is that most of archer's evasion is in one skill tree. On the one hand that makes defence quite cheap because you just have to lvl up one tree for defence but on the other hand it is quite a big sacrifice to put points into a skill tree that has not a single spell which can be used on enemies, especially as an offensive class that a marksman is.

In general, when you compare defences of all offensive classes there is not that much of a difference. barbs are having caution, unstoppable madness, several passives to get dmg resistance and quite a lot of hp, marks are having
just about 200hp more than mages, spell elude, evasive tactics, strategic position, acrobatics and evade chance passive, warlocks are having energy barrier, spells to get mana/hp back, windwall, protection dome and some dmg resistance passives. Just to name the most important ones.

Of course I cannot realy see how it is to play other classes than archers, but I saw quite a lot other classes fighting against me and against others. And from this point I would say archers, and ecpecially marksmen are not that overpowered that they can eat others. I have a fair chance to win as well as to loose when fighting against others, that is what gives me the feeling that classes are quite balanced.

There are some minor corrections that have to be done in my opion, but this are not issues that would make one class totally overpowered.

minor issues I would like NGD would think about it again:

- combination camo+sotw
- effect of confuse on support conjus
- archers evasion tree, maybe split it up in other trees.
- warrior damage cap, maybe 1,5k dmg, because one hit kills are not this what I consider to be fun for both sides
- ranged attack damage cap, maybe 1k
- increase speed for knights sprint or improve duration/cooldown ratio to make playing knight on hunts more fun. should be knights only since barbs have onslaught already
- give knights (maybe barbs too, not sure about it) an INT passive. This would give more mana, faster mana regeneration and more spell resistance.

[Signatus]

Originally Posted by CumeriTarenes

minor issues I would like NGD would think about it again:

- combination camo+sotw
- effect of confuse on support conjus
- archers evasion tree, maybe split it up in other trees.
- barb damage cap, maybe 1,5k dmg, because one hit kills are not this what I consider to be fun for both sides
- ranged attack damage cap, maybe 1k
- increase speed for knights sprint or improve duration/cooldown ratio to make playing knight on hunts more fun. speed increasement should be knights only since barbs have onslaught already
- give knights (maybe barbs too, not sure about it) an INT passive. This would give more mana, faster mana regeneration and more spell resistance.

- I really don't care, it's fine as it is, rewards to fort fights should be top priority.
- good conjus share DI's first between themselves and then on allies since the cooldown is shorter then the spell duration.
- ah, ok...
- NO, NEVER, NOT IN A MILLION YEARS. Fun for both sides is understanding each other weaknesses. Use beetle swarm, use brain piercing, use stunning fist, use sticky touch. use... gah... then what use will have the enchantments tree, how the hell will you fight for forts, who's going to play a game with capped features leaving players imagination and tactical ability to *limited* options?
- same as before.
- ah, ok! ... /me switches to the hunter: "HOW THE HELL A FULL ARMORED MIDGET WITH A SHIELD TWICE HIS SIZE CAUGHT ME??!!!"
- ok, more int doesn't hurt anyone does it? (block+evasion+spell resistance+magic dmg soaking spells+physical dmg soaking spells+extra block layer+extra extra block layer with Red or DF+extra extra extra block layer with "bubble boy"... gah, mana please... yet again.)

[LuthienNenharma]

Originally Posted by Static_Fang

Yup, i can almost kill most lvl 50 warlocks (DM excluded), only being lvl 43 ^^

Before or after the update with unstoppable?
With Warsetup or not?

It is not that easy anymore when you fight against good players. You need to change your tactics because of unstoppable. Infuriate works fine now.

[fluffy_muffin]

Originally Posted by magnet

but with hunters you don't care, you camou and go kill lower levels or people with 10% hps (better if they're resting, it might be troublesome if they start attacking back!).

This is all you can do with your hunter?

[e30G]

Originally Posted by Signatus

- good conjus share DI's first between themselves and then on allies since the cooldown is shorter then the spell duration.

That is the ideal situation, unfortunately in my experience I often find myself as the lone conjurer in the group. In that case I have one of 2 options, continue with them or leave them and head back to the save. Usually I don't bother. I'd rather not run a long way only to be rendered useless in one spell. Now I started another character so I won't be using my conjurer for quite some time.

[Angelwinged_Devil]

I agree with magnet.

I just think the chancespells should be removed, luck can't be modified. Resist/evade/blocking rates toned down. Then it's ALL about strategy and you suck if you die. And you won't die because you're unlucky, you have things to learn then, and you will always learn something new, you can't learn luck. Then you can start discussing balance.

[CumeriTarenes]

without luck it is who makes the first hit wins...

when I imagine every spell would realy hit me that a warlock casts on me...oh well, I would be dead meat, as soon as the warlock brings meteor on me. On the other side...when I can dizzy the warlock first, death sentence, serpent bite, winter stroke, stun fist, ambush...running out of range.


When all the spells would hit it would be boring I think....every fight would be quite the same

Originally Posted by Signatus

- I really don't care, it's fine as it is, rewards to fort fights should be top priority.
- good conjus share DI's first between themselves and then on allies since the cooldown is shorter then the spell duration.
- ah, ok...
- NO, NEVER, NOT IN A MILLION YEARS. Fun for both sides is understanding each other weaknesses. Use beetle swarm, use brain piercing, use stunning fist, use sticky touch. use... gah... then what use will have the enchantments tree, how the hell will you fight for forts, who's going to play a game with capped features leaving players imagination and tactical ability to *limited* options?
- same as before.
- ah, ok! ... /me switches to the hunter: "HOW THE HELL A FULL ARMORED MIDGET WITH A SHIELD TWICE HIS SIZE CAUGHT ME??!!!"
- ok, more int doesn't hurt anyone does it? (block+evasion+spell resistance+magic dmg soaking spells+physical dmg soaking spells+extra block layer+extra extra block layer with Red or DF+extra extra extra block layer with "bubble boy"... gah, mana please... yet again.)

- often there is only one conju. Gal described the situation very well I think.
- so you agree?
- ok...maybe I have to clarify why I said I wish a dmg cap. Actually it would be enough to tone down ripost and south cross a bit, means either in the effect or increase mana cost or increase cool down. At the moment it is just too much damage for only a a very few effort.
- I just brought up a range damage cap because it would be just fair to have it when you have a melee weapon cap
- just a little more speed. Also, it does not matter if it makes sence if a heavy armoured class can run fast since it is a fantasy game. It also does not makes sence to cast spells at all then...
I thought about giving spring for knights 1% more speed each lvl, so that at lvl 5 they would have 35% speed bonus instead of 30%. It is just for small sprints to reach an enemy or to rush in.
- I asked for more int because it would make knights even more tanks, since they will resist more and they will have more mana to buff others and them self more.

[e30G]

Agreed. A whole new issue on balance will appear if you remove luck. Warlocks will need definite toning down of their spells.