Tactical implications of archer weapon trails

[ncvr]

Originally Posted by Umaril

I agree that they will give an advantage to people who have trails turned on, but I dont think its game breaking. You can already tell whos being shot if see their health move or the impact animation when the hit lands, this will just also show who is shooting who a bit more.

It's not so much that you can tell whether or not someone is being shot, but that you can tell from which direction the shot is coming from. There is a very clear difference between attacks which do give away your location, and those which don't. For example - I'm a warlock from Alsius. Syrtis has Menirah. I run and hide in the ditch near Menirah fort, within attacking range of the enemy, but out of visual range of them. A lot of warlock spells don't give away our location - terror, golem fist, lightning, stalagmite, mana burn, etc. So, I manage to make careful use of those spells to deal damage without Syrtis figuring out where I'm attacking from. It's the same case for archers - normal hits and some spells, at least. But with arrow trails, all that goes away.

[Kyrottimus]

Originally Posted by Necrovarus

It's not so much that you can tell whether or not someone is being shot, but that you can tell from which direction the shot is coming from. There is a very clear difference between attacks which do give away your location, and those which don't. For example - I'm a warlock from Alsius. Syrtis has Menirah. I run and hide in the ditch near Menirah fort, within attacking range of the enemy, but out of visual range of them. A lot of warlock spells don't give away our location - terror, golem fist, lightning, stalagmite, mana burn, etc. So, I manage to make careful use of those spells to deal damage without Syrtis figuring out where I'm attacking from. It's the same case for archers - normal hits and some spells, at least. But with arrow trails, all that goes away.

If warriors don't get the luxury of anonymous attack locations, I don't mages and archers should.

Anyone who's shot a bow (or seen the Archer's Paradox) can see the arrow in flight. That much is a nice addition to simulate.

As far as mages, well, they're slow. The fact that archers have high-speed and evasion for escaping means that invisible arrows are a bit too much of an advantage to them IMO.

[tjanex]

And they die quick especially hunters... I think they are good but they need more Regnum and less time duration just 1 second you see a normal arrow only fly a second than it reached target you can't see his trail 20 seconds...

[UmarilsStillHere]

Originally Posted by tjanex

1 second you see a normal arrow only fly a second than it reached target you can't see his trail 20 seconds...

I agree with this, imo make them more like staff shots, the 'trail' shouldent trace all the way from the bow to a target 30m away, it just dosnt look right.

[Zas_]

Originally Posted by Kyrottimus

If warriors don't get the luxury of anonymous attack locations, I don't mages and archers should.

This is a lame excuse. Each class has plus and minus.

Xia made a good point about arrows trails, it modifies the way we fight, and this is perhaps not intended.

If you want to see this change as a balancing change, you can, but it isn't, it's just a visual effect following the one added recently (weapons trails for warriors).
But note trails on a barb axe don't change anything from tactical POV.

To be clear, reducing tactical possibilities for any class is a bad move, especially in a game that has only one positive point: the war.

Personally, i dislike this move, not aesthetically but tactically.

[MalaTempora]

the best thing NGD could do (imvho) is to add NAILED arrow on target and on ground staying for a min... so maybe i cant see the trail but i can see on my
body from where the arrows come..

(indeed i would really love to see arrow nailed on body... and when blocked
staying on front of my shield..)

this would be very very cool and useful (to see from where the toltard ambush )


just my 2 cents,

otherwise, to return on topic, i like them too... (any add that reduce the
imbalance of arrow-thrower is welcome )

[tjanex]

the best thing NGD could do (imvho) is to add NAILED arrow on target and on ground staying for a min... so maybe i cant see the trail but i can see on my
body from where the arrows come..

(indeed i would really love to see arrow nailed on body... and when blocked
staying on front of my shield..)

I'm sorry but I rather be tracked by the arrows than I'm a walking arrow holder

[KryHavoK]

I'm not seeing the arrow trails on Amun. I don't know if it's my video cards, or is there a box to check to see them.

My Nvidia card is a few years old and runs on fixed pipe, so maybe that's why I don't see them on that computer.

My Raedon card is running Shader 2, I would think that would be enough but maybe not.

Any ideas?

[Kyrottimus]

Originally Posted by Zas_

This is a lame excuse. Each class has plus and minus.

And right now archers and mages have way more pluses than warriors do, and way fewer minuses. Hence my appeal to this argument with balance in mind.

If you disagree I suggest leveling a warrior to 50 and warring with it for a week or two. The difference is pretty profound.

Xia made a good point about arrows trails, it modifies the way we fight, and this is perhaps not intended.

If you want to see this change as a balancing change, you can, but it isn't, it's just a visual effect following the one added recently (weapons trails for warriors).
But note trails on a barb axe don't change anything from tactical POV.

Agreed, it does modify the way you fight, but invisible arrows have been around far too long and always have offered a tactical advantage that was already augmented by superior range and speed. Ethereal arrow notwithstanding, I don't think archers should get any invisible attacks.

And regardless of what you may think regarding "intent" based on a simple visual effect, one wrought with implications such as this (showing origin of the shooter) will invariably alter the balance. So yes, in fact, it is (perhaps indirectly) a balancing change.

To be clear, reducing tactical possibilities for any class is a bad move, especially in a game that has only one positive point: the war.

It's not reducing tactical possibilities, only shifting their focus. For example, spells such as Ethereal Arrow would give the the marksman an invisible attack (as it is a spiritual arrow), which can still be applied as such.

Also, Hunters already have camouflage and stalker and insane speed.

Personally, i dislike this move, not aesthetically but tactically.

I like it, as archers already have the range and speed (and damage resistance) advantage over mages and barbs (and 2/3rds of the time knights).

I'd love to see things like Ensnaring Arrow, Ambush and Shield Piercing/Dual Shot get trails as well.

Umaril said:
I agree with this, imo make them more like staff shots, the 'trail' shouldent trace all the way from the bow to a target 30m away, it just dosnt look right.

+1

I don't think the trail should have such a long-lasting streak. Something that is there for a flash of a moment is gone. People need to have a visual indicator of their nearest threat but should learn to have rapid perceptions, and not have their hands held as to where the threat is.

[Zas_]

Originally Posted by Kyrottimus

And right now archers and mages have way more pluses than warriors do, and way fewer minuses. Hence my appeal to this argument with balance in mind.

If you disagree I suggest leveling a warrior to 50 and warring with it for a week or two. The difference is pretty profound.

...

The point i disagree is that arrows trail were meant to improve balance, and as such arrow trails are a bad way to improve it somehow.

Still i agree warriors need more work, but by improving them, not killing the fun of playing other classes.

The class balancing issue has to be handled, but weapon/arrow trails aren't implemented for that, here it is an unwanted side effect, and such thing should not occur (you may think it is positive this time, but still any balance change has to be thought twice).

Revealing position of an archer by tracing arrow trails reduce tactical possibilities, final dot.
It is a bit like if, irl, snipers were using tracer bullets... quite stupid.

Currently, in game, it doesn't take that long to locate an archer (at least, for me, but your mileage may vary...)