Balance Update 2011 - Stage 1 - Initial Discussion

[-Logan-]

Originally Posted by theotherhiveking

Imho the most obvious problem is the knock duration.

A knockdown is:
-Immobilize
-Cannot Attack
-Dizzy
-Interrupt Casting

I agree. But you know knockdowns also have 2 more wonderful effects though: Block chance and evade chance = 0% (Which is realistic, but just plain stupid with the current durations imo.)

Knockdowns in their current state are grave markers. If you're in a heavy fight and your knocked down, that's it, you know instantly at that moment that death follows a few seconds afterwards.

[theotherhiveking]

Originally Posted by -Logan-

I agree. You know knockdowns also have 2 more wonderful effects though: Block chance and evade chance = 0% (Which is realistic, but just plain stupid with the current durations imo.)

I forgot about that.

So yeah, Knock should be a panic (or strategic) skill, like knock and run for your life, or try to use a high casting time spell; right now they are kill skills, no matter what are you doing a knock is always the best choice.

Balance is about having meaningful choices too, dizzy or knock, immobilize or knock, dex debuff or knock? can't attack or knock? The best choice is pretty clear.

[Zas_]

My comments are colored in green below.

Originally Posted by chilko

Balance Update: Crowd Controls


Comments _before_ any test on Amun


Crowd control skills are an important part of combat strategy both for PVP and RVR. Even though all clases have different variations of CC skills, some of their possible combinations generate a great deal of frustrations for Regnum players.

Among the different kinds of CCs, we believe that "knock down" is the most powerful. Not Only these skills leave the target without movement, attacking and casting, but also vulnerable to damage.

For this new balance iteration we will try not to modify a great deal of skills but to adjust a small set of them so we can observe the results in real gameplay conditions. By doing this, the analysis period should be shorter (less modified variables to take into account) and corrections that may arise should be easier to implement.

In this stage we will focus only on CC Skills with a single target.

Considering the above, and after studying both the game and the requests on the fórum, these are the proposed changes to be included in the future version.

Please read all the changes for all the classes before stating an opinion as all of the decisions are intertwined.


Class: Warrior (Barbs & Knights)

The damage that Barbarians can do is high. We don’t believe that the issue is with the damage but with the fact that they have 2 Knocks (feint and kick). The ability to combine both skills creates the opportunity for a barbarían, to eliminate its opponent without a chance to get up.

Both of these skills are part of the “Tactics” discipline, and we don’t want to affect the Knight with this change so we will do the following modification:

• Feint: moved to the “vanguard” -knight only- discipline to replace “intimidate”
• Intimidate: moved to the “Tactics” discipline instead of “Kick”
• Kick: Moved to the 1st place of the discipline in place of feint

We’ll have to do minor adjustments to the mana consumption and/or duration of these skills because of the change of place in the discipline. Although Barbarians will lose one of their CC skills, they will earn a slow skill that will allow them to reach their enemies.

This will fix nothing, barbarians will have speed AND slow spells now, i would say even worse.
Did you already tested the changes you proposed on a local server or is this before any testing ?
 
Clase: Archer (Hunters and Marksmen)

The tactical situation between Archers and Warriors should play around the difference of range. In normal conditions a warrior that reaches melee range should have a positional advantage.
Because of the different CCs and “counter damage” available in the “Tricks” discipline This theoretical situation does not happen as often as we would like.
The following changes will be introduced with the intention of revert this. siguientes cambios serán introducidos con la intención de revertir la situación mencionada.

• Ambush: The range of this spell will be reduced to melee range. This will allow archers to have a CC suited for melee classes (so to gain range for a brief period of time) but not against other ranged classes.
• Stunning Fist: the effect “Cannot attack” will be replaced either by “Stun” or “cannot cast” (please let us know what you think)

I really don't get how you come to these... so an archer have even less means to stop a barbarian (which atm is under UM or offensive beacon or DI)....
I don't see how you fit hunter class in this scheme.
And still nothing about one of the most critized spell: confuse.


Class: Mages (Warlocks y Conjurer)

Based on the previous explanations we propose the following changes:

• Will Domain: this skill is going to be replaced by "Mummify".
• Mummify: transforms the objective into a mummy showering its movements. Reduces movement speed and attack speed.

How much is the slow effect on movement and attacks? it has to be VERY significative to replace Will Domain..

Subclass: Masksman

We have read many posts about this subclass being OP. We think that this issue is much more related o CCs than damage. Marksmen have a great amount and diversity of long range control skills that allows them to “keep range” all the time.
The combination of said CCs give them an edge against melee classes that need to reach them in order to fight.

This subclass has two CC skills that include damage, Winter Stroke and Burst of wind (cannot be stopped by “divine intervention” hurting team-play)
Also, after the last balance update mana regeneration was increased and it may be too high for this class (both for PVP and RVR)

• Burst of Wind: damage will be removed. -> GOOD
• Mana regen: slightly reduced during combat (we’ll add feedback on GUI while “in combat” status)

So you want to make Divine Intervention the new OP spell... because fights will be decided by number of barbarians and warlocks under DI (which has very (too) long effect when affecting such classes).


We wanted to have an initial discussion about these changes before we upload to Amun. Please try to explain yourselves and maintain a constructive thread.

Overall i don't like the changes you proposed, and if it goes on Amun, i'm pretty sure they will go on production servers as is, as you did most of the time.

What about keeping everything as today but:
- give feint to knights only
- reduce duration (and perhaps CD) of all CCs
- add a chance to break CC when a number of damages is received
- drop damage on Burst of Wind
- reduce Confuse duration

[HidraA]

Originally Posted by Zas_

What about keeping everything as today but:
- give feint to knights only
- reduce duration (and perhaps CD) of all CCs
- add a chance to break CC when a number of damages is received
- drop damage on Burst of Wind
- reduce Confuse duration
[/COLOR]

upps i just realise Zas is right...allrady a barb had lots of speed 25% twice /minut a archer 10% once /minut...now has more speed because you give them slow spell...a archer needs to stop to hit with a worst 200 dmg.. a barb can hit wille he runing with 1k+ dmg...so nothing happened ,nobody can escape.......

So the change from bad to bad....

-keep only kick or feint on barbarian;
-lower duration to max 4 s
-make longer cd of knocks.

[Vroek]

Originally Posted by Zas_

What about keeping everything as today but:
- give feint to knights only
- reduce duration (and perhaps CD) of all CCs
- add a chance to break CC when a number of damages is received
- drop damage on Burst of Wind
- reduce Confuse duration

Completely agree...

I really dont see the problem with the effect "knock", just the duration.
Same with some other CCs, immobilize, slow and cannot attack.
Lower duration or lower the effect, in some case maybe both but less and include at least some AoEs. Frozen storm, lightning arrow, rage of the earth and typhoon comes to mind.

Having alot of CCs with less effect, is more fun than having a few with OP effect.


Stage1, seems like hunters get more nerfed than marksmen, simply because they have less CCs to work with in the first place.

Will domain, one of few spells that cast fast enough to disrupt these frustrating CC combos and turn the tide.
One of warlocks most important spells since they dont have these "safety spells" or CC protection buffs like for example archers and barbarians have to turn the tide in a fight.

Burst of wind
Really dont see the difference, you only make DI and confuse even more OP.
Rather see an increase cool down of winter stroke tbh.

[Llayne]

I hope this is the update you look at confuse. If you do nothing else at least let the mage spell that resists knocks be able to resist confuse at the same %.

Many times on the smaller servers groups have one mage so DI on them is not possible. Confuse is the most OP spell in the game in my opinion. I hope that you listen to feedback and do something about it.

[Zas_]

Originally Posted by Vroek

C
Burst of wind
Really dont see the difference, you only make DI and confuse even more OP.
Rather see an increase cool down of winter stroke tbh.

Yes, better fix for it.

[Ashnurazg]

Hmm, the future changes sounds good, except of "Will domain".

A mage can immobilize other players with Ivy (good against warriors - slightly ineffective against mages and archers) and with the future Mummify, but without Will domain a mage can't stun another player. Mages are not so powerful at Regnum anymore.

Especially marksmen give BoW at mages. The mage is sentenced to death because he can't cast a spell for a long time (only can go away and wait until BoW is over).

Warlocks are the only offensive class without any protection buff against CC. I think a warlock should have a protection buff against CC.

I think the barbs mass stun spell effective and range (I think it is Deafening Roar) should be reduced.

Chilko, what is the next "stage"? Damage adjustment of main classes?

[Latan]

i think you're approaching in a wrong way to this balance work.

the real issue with CC'S is their DURATION/CD
barbarians could still kill someone in a kick duration (2 RoL, 5% leggings, TfB 5) with kick (4-5), normal, SC, normal, beast attack (5).
marksmen can simply change target if DI'ed and dizzy from 50+ m for 11s.
archers already have a range 25 stun.
mages already have mind push (locks have slow too).

i think the very first step should be a redefinition of CC and a maximum duration for each spell.
for example:
knock: 5 sec max
cannot move: 6 sec max
dizzy: 8 sec max
cannot attack: 8 sec max
freeze: 11 sec max
stun: 11 sec max
slowdown: 15 sec max
confuse/darkness: 20 sec max
armor debuffs: 20 sec max

once defined those limits, give each spell a good balance, so an appropriate range, mana cost, COOLDOWN (it's absurd that WS deals 500 dmg, keep you freezed for 6 seconds, has low mana cost and needs only 14 seconds to be recasted. same for kick: 8 seconds duration, then only 12 seconds to wait).

CC's should give and advantage, but they should not be the "I WIN" button, and keeping the same duration, these changes wouldn't improve the game at all

[PT_DaAr_PT]

I wanted to disagree with some things, but I already see some people did it before me. So, I'm gonna throw an old idea I've had stuck in my head for some time.

The main problem with CCs has always been their duration. 8 seconds knocked on the ground is just too long, same for 15 seconds stunned, it even gives time for the enemy to log out.
Also, a barbarian only needs 1 knock down to kill a mage(Seriously, take a look at the damage output diferences per class, please). Now, what if the duration of CCs in general were reduced?

For instance, the duration of Feint at level 1 is four(4) seconds and at level 5 it's eight(8) seconds. Now, Winter Stroke for instance, is two(2) seconds long at level 1 and six(6) seconds at level 5.
This 2 second diference seems to make a lot of balance diference, believe it or not.
The level 1 knock down is too powerful for a level 1 skill while winter stroke at level 1 deals what it promisses for that level.

If every CC duration was lowered in that way, a single CC wouldn't cause a huge decline in a player's survival chance.

CC duration of 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 seconds changed to 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 seconds per level
CC duration of 7 - 9 - 11 - 13 - 15 seconds changed to 3 - 5 - 7 - 9 - 11 seconds per level

Generally, I believe this is needed.