Nibiru? Wow..

[Psynocide]

Originally Posted by Umaril

...

You missed the point.
What we presumed to know a hundred years ago, we know differently now - so can you say for absolute certain what you do know?

Originally Posted by Umaril

I don't believe in any God because there is no proof

Nor is it possible to prove some deity does not exist - most people take the existence of a celestial being too literally. Like most theoretical propositions, they're often not meant to be read as they first appear.

This is why I take an agnostic view of the subject, a fence sitter if you will.

[Archonaut]

Originally Posted by Aelonderiel

Seriously, stop spamming this bullshit in these forums.

Wow lol? Chill the f*ck down? I was just asking him, and this is the inn so again, chill the f*ck down. I wan't to hear opinions, what people think of these things and if Im not the only one. If you don't want to see this thread, get the hell out of here. No reason to provoke a flame, and I would like this thread to be flame-free.

[Aelonderiel]

Originally Posted by Archonaut

Wow lol? Chill the f*ck down? I was just asking him, and this is the inn so again, chill the f*ck down. I wan't to hear opinions, what people think of these things and if Im not the only one. If you don't want to see this thread, get the hell out of here. No reason to provoke a flame, and I would like this thread to be flame-free.

I wonder, is it me being an astrophysicist that makes me more intellectually capable than individuals such as yourself, or is it because I'm more intellectually capable that I am an astrophysicist?

"Opinions" and "Science" don't go together boy. I say this is bullshit because it is my job to say so.

[Archonaut]

Originally Posted by Umaril

Simple probability, even excluding other factors, dictates that if we as one planet in one solar system have life, then of the countless other planets in countless other star systems life must also exist. Infact we suspect there is basic cellular life in the ice on mars, and if I remember correctly all signs point that one of Jupiters icey moons, Europa, probably has liquid water under the surface, which is a great environment for life to develop. If either of these possibility actually hold life then the odds of life elsewhere becomes a certainty. 3 in one system examples of life in one system? Countless other systems? You work out the odds. We are not special, only our vanity could ever have us think that we are the only spark of life in a universe of infinite probability.

I don't believe in any God because there is no proof, and his existence isn't necessarily for the existence of the universe as we understand it. We can't see gravity, yet we can see it in action, we can test its properties, we can understand it and its roll in creation. All Gods are fairy storys written to answer questions that we couldn't at the time, and then used for several hundred years to control people twist facts repress learning and generally hold the world back, really, mass religion should be ashamed, without the dark ages of scientific repression we could well be on Mars by now, who knows?

Well to be honest that makes a lot of sence, I come from a place where religion is put on first place.. Also I have always been teached this way, I grew up this way.. It's just that I live in a total other culture then where I actually come from. This makes me doubt about a lot of things, God is one, creation of this earth, how we should live etc.
How do you know so much about this subject?

Originally Posted by Umaril

I reject the ideas of God because they are no more valid than Harry Potter, and far worse for the world than Twilight, those are my reasons

I guess most people in your environment are atheist and think exactly the way you do ;p ?

Originally Posted by Umaril

Feel free to counter argue, I actually quite like sharing pro/con reasons for assorted things

Same, it's just that people seek for reasons, reasons why things they can't explain happend. Still makes me think what I should really believe in though.

[Archonaut]

Originally Posted by Aelonderiel

I wonder, is it me being an astrophysicist that makes me more intellectually capable than individuals such as yourself, or is it because I'm more intellectually capable that I am an astrophysicist?

"Opinions" and "Science" don't go together boy. I say this is bullshit because it is my job to say so.

Well, then why can't you just tell us more abotu this subject? It's your job right, so you should know most of us about this. Opinions and Science maybe don't go together but I wasn't saying it's all about science, do you actually believe there is a planet like that? If not, how are you so sure?

[Angel_de_Combate]

Faith is a 30 year man trapped in a younger man's body, what he says very well thought out it still always surprises me.

[Aelonderiel]

Originally Posted by Archonaut

Well, then why can't you just tell us more abotu this subject? It's your job right, so you should know most of us about this. Opinions and Science maybe don't go together but I wasn't saying it's all about science, do you actually believe there is a planet like that? If not, how are you so sure?

Alright, what do you want to know? Life on other planets? The existence of Gas Giants so far away from their parent stars? What?

All of it is possible. That doesn't mean it is probable. And the probability of us detecting them is billions of times smaller.

Do you want me to explain something that is taught to University Astrophysics students over two full semester modules (The Solar System/ Extrasolar Planets & Astrobiology as they were taught to me) in a thread? And to people who in most cases have none of the required background knowledge?

I'll start with this. Umaril's post, for example, is only one side of the coin. There is another, which I think is called the Rare Earth Hypothesis, and it makes just as much sense. Here's what it says:

The Earth is unique, and we know it. Why? Because there have been numerous occurences that have very low probability of happening in the first place in the history of the Earth. First of all, according to the only working model of Solar System creation, no Earth like planet should have liquid water. Presence of liquid water is currently assumed to be the most important deciding factor for the evolution of life. However, any rocky planet of the Earth's size cannot form with liquid water on it. During the planets' formation, water is in gaseous form, and it cannot be retained by a planet with the Earth's gravitational pull.

How does the Earth have water then? An extremely unique thing happened early on in our Solar System. Shorty after its creation (about 500-800 Myears is our current estimate) the orbits of Juiter and Saturn reached a 2:1 resonance. This means that there was a huge energy release that disrupted the rest of the Solar System. This threw Uranus and Neptune further out of the Solar System (Neptune was initially closer so it was sent further out, and that's why the less massive Ice Giant is currently first in line), as by the model they shouldn't be so far out. And it also disrupted what is known as the Kuiper Belt. The Kuiper Belt is where smaller objects like Pluto reside, and it originally came much closer to the Sun than the current 40 AU. All those comets and asteroids were forced inwards by this energy release, and they absolutely hammered every celestial body in the Solar System. That is the origin, for example, of the massive amount of craters on the Moon and Mercury.

Those objects, lo and behold, carried water. In fact, they are the only objects in the Solar System which carried water with the same deuterium-to-hydrogen ratio as the water found on the Earth, so the water must have come from them.

This is just but one incredibly random occurence that must have happened for the Earth to have developed life, and I bet most of you won't even read this wall of text. There are still many other occurences, such as the Cambrian Explosion, which was the stunningly rapid appearance of complex multi-cellular organisms, essentially from nowhere - and it would take another huge post to explain why this is rare. Most of these, we either know are rare, or we have absolutely no idea how they occur and whether they are rare or not.

If you start putting the chances of each one of those happening on top of the other, then the chance of developing life becomes incredibly slim. So it's only because there are innumerable planets that we have developed life, since we are the one planet in a billion billions or whatever (not actual probability, just demonstrating ).

As I said, this is just the other side of the coin. What Umaril posted about the fact that life should be incredibly common is also a valid hypothesis. In fact, there is plenty of debate on these subjects...

PS: As far as we know, there is no life on Mars. I think the mission that was sent there was called Viking, and it tested for virtually every known type of organism or organic matter that was known in the 70's (I think that's when it was designed and launched, could be wrong but I can't be assed to google). It found jack squat. So that part is wrong. No life on Mars.

Moreover, Europa isn't even the best candidate for life in the Solar System. Titan is. Titan is Saturn's largest moon, and unlike Europa, it has a Hydrosphere, making it the only object with one that we know of other than the Earth. It also has seasons. In general, it is stunningly similar to the Earth - other than the fact that its Hydrosphere is made up of Methane, not Water. Too bad. It's still speculated that there might be microorganisms that use Methane in Titan, because its methane levels are constantly being replenished (although it might not come from biological sources). And it probably has a subsurface water ocean like Europa.

Is that enough science for you?

[Archonaut]

Originally Posted by Aelonderiel

This is just but one incredibly random occurence that must have happened for the Earth to have developed life, and I bet most of you won't even read this wall of text.

Just did, so water on a planet like ours is pretty uncommon? More like really rare, hmmm. So there are several solar systems in the universe right? Then what is a (in dutch called zwart gat) fully translated it would be a black hole but I don't really think that's how it's called in English. More like a warp hole or something? The things you usually see in Scifi movies, some sort of teleports to other 'worlds' / solar systems. Do those things really exist?

[UmarilsStillHere]

Originally Posted by Archonaut

How do you know so much about this subject?

I'm not going to claim I have any kind of PH.d or am in any way an expert on these subjects, but what I know I know from seeking out knowledge, you'll never find your answers if you don't look for them

I guess most people in your environment are atheist and think exactly the way you do ;p ?

Correct You can't underestimate the roll environment takes on sculpting who we are, as I don't believe in any predefined soul I support that we begin as a Tabula Rasa, a blank slate, and are formed by experience, if we were to fully exchange the events of our lives, friends, events, location, education what you had for lunch last Tuesday etc, then other than some minor genetic variances I'd probably think the same as you on almost any topic

Same, it's just that people seek for reasons, reasons why things they can't explain happend. Still makes me think what I should really believe in though.

God is the lazy mans answer Have you heard the phrase "God of the gaps"? The basic meaning is that any gap in scientific know how should be filled with "we can't explain this so God did it." God of the gaps applied though all of history, the Norse couldn't explain thunder, so they created Thor as an explanation, these days God of the gaps is shrinking by the year as these gaps are filled in by actual facts

Originally Posted by isaacrulzrs2

What we presumed to know a hundred years ago, we know differently now - so can you say for absolute certain what you do know?

I can say that there is a difference between what we presume and what we know for fact, but that's probably just your poor choice of words Its been quite a long time since anything has seriously made the scientific community reconsider any major ideas, at least as far as I know, the tests at Cern are obviously recent but before that? I can say for certain what gravity does, the structure of atoms elements and cells, the chemistry of our sun etc. But what I love about science is its always adaptable, its a search for facts and truth, not just any old explanation that fly's in the face of logic, and its an ongoing search.

If tomorrow we proved the earth was created by a giant pink teapot with a pretty flower on it, or however you want to picture a deity, then the scientific community would go "oops, we were wrong, all hail our flowery overlord" But no matter how much evidence to the contrary you show a die hard believer in any religion they will deny you.

Science changes its views based on whats observed.
Religion is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved.

Just did, so water on a planet like ours is pretty uncommon? More like really rare, hmmm. So there are several solar systems in the universe right? Then what is a (in dutch called zwart gat) fully translated it would be a black hole but I don't really think that's how it's called in English. More like a warp hole or something? The things you usually see in Scifi movies, some sort of teleports to other 'worlds' / solar systems. Do those things really exist?

A planet like earth would be rare yes. And several is a understatement, there are several solar systems in every star sign (Scorpio, Libra etc) there are countless systems in a galaxy and countless galaxy in the universe. I think you mean a wormhole? A means of traveling from one point in space to another instantly? Current physics does allow for this I think, but only through bending the fabric of space time so that two points meet, like bending a piece of paper in so the opposite edges now touch. As for Star Trek style beam me up Scotty stuff, that doesn't exist, as yet. I think that we've managed to "teleport" one electron or something, but to have a device that remembers the exact postion and properties of every single particle of your being and can reconstruct them somewhere else, I doubt we'll ever pull off, but you never know Infact if you sent that data that makes up "you" down our fastest internet connections it would take serveral hundred thousand years to finish "downloading" so even if we could, it wouldn't be practical unless we come up with something drastically faster than fiber optics

[Aelonderiel]

Originally Posted by Archonaut

Just did, so water on a planet like ours is pretty uncommon? More like really rare, hmmm. So there are several solar systems in the universe right? Then what is a (in dutch called zwart gat) fully translated it would be a black hole but I don't really think that's how it's called in English. More like a warp hole or something? The things you usually see in Scifi movies, some sort of teleports to other 'worlds' / solar systems. Do those things really exist?

No, warp holes and teleportation do not exist. Over large distances, teleportation violates three important things: Conservation of Energy, Conservation of Charge, and the fact that nothing can move faster than light. (edit to make it simpler)

This is why it's Science Fiction, and not actual Science

Seriously, don't try and make me explain Relativity in the Regnum Forums. I refuse. If you want, go and read about it.

Edit: Umaril, if I told you that maths and science is just another religion, what would you say? Remember, this is coming from a scientist