Improve Hunters

[Signatus]

Originally Posted by magnet

And how many Hunters whined in the past to get to this point? I don't know if you remember but I do. When they had 10% passive speed they whined and whined to get it to 15% (which NGD unfortunately did); before the patch was made, I already wrote that it was a bad idea, Hunters already got away with 10% easy.

I remember this... I whined too, it made no sense having a half sized dwarf holding a hammer twice his size able to catch a hunter with light armor and a wooden bow...

Originally Posted by magnet

How many Hunters whined when the changes in SotW and Camouflage, which both are mostly advantageous towards them (SotW nerfs Marksmen more and the new Camou is arguably better - or worse for their enemies)?

And... I whined about this too... but I must admit you can do nice stuff with them as they are now. However I must say I loved the previous camu, no better to deselect targets on enemies (you could actually go camu in the middle of a fight since few spells where able to cancel it, and escapist + camu combo worked fine on wars).

Originally Posted by magnet

Don't worry that Hunters have a "lobby" which does defend their interests and so far the wind has been on their side. Now, I am one of the voices in the English-speaking forums on Hunters being 5% too fast passively, and on Archers' Evasion being an overpowered tree which makes Marksmen completely out of control and Hunters uncatchable for Knights, Warlocks and often Barbs/Marks too which encourages the "hit and run" practice I am against. *It makes the Archers encounters an Archer vs Archer only game and I cannot approve of that.*

I don't have any problem about hunters being uncatchable by knights... I think it's suposed to be like that. But I must add that there aren't many hunters able to run away from a knight with maxed tactics and a barb with maxed warcries, specially because they aren't expecting it and cast escapist at spear range...

Originally Posted by magnet

My wish: have the Evasion spells *balanced* over the other trees (for example, Spell Eludes in short bows, Acrobatics in Long Bows, Mobility/Dodge/SotW can remain in Evasion) because it's a damn cheap tree that doesn't really imply sacrifices besides powerpoints and *all* Archers use it extensively.

Dunno... wouldn't they be even more easier to kill after?! Because after mindsquash or crash or provocking blow + impale or disable limb + barb SC or... they aren't that hard to kill imho. But alas, probably I don't know what I'm talking about, only theory.

Originally Posted by magnet

Btw, I don't agree with Cumeri at all on pet nerfs; too me pets suck as they are and they should be WAY better and controllable. I know NGD is working on that aspect

Totally agree, I whine about this since my first lvl 10... just.add.a.HOLD STILL.command.at.leats.plz. But I must admit there are hunters who handle them very well.

Originally Posted by magnet

Finally I'm not criticizing players behind Archers in general (some are truly lame though but mostly Hunters ). I'm criticizing the game design of the class (and specifically the Evasion tree).

I don't criticize the game design of the class, I criticize the game design of rewards... get me a full pack of archers in front of samal (reward captures) instead of in the open field (instead of rewarding hunts abusively) and Moloks (yeah... going IC) shall deliver them a quick and painfull death above all evasions pumped.

Originally Posted by magnet

A knigth can have 7 save rolls for each skill you shoot to him and to impact a single skill you need:

-More than a 30 of 100 for precise block.

-More than a 50 of 100 for protector

-More than a 50 of 100 for deflective.

-More than a 50 of 100 for dome.

-And 3 more saves for the natural resistances of blocking, resist by int and evade by dex.

Thank God, who's supposed to be tanking anyway?... but that's assuming much, remove protector and dome from the frequent rolls not everyone has "bubble boy" maxed or even uses it unless to retreat for heals and mana communions... and Dome, I love it, too bad not every mage has it.

Sry, wrote too much again, but I love magnet replies. Too bad he doesn't use his knowledge to improve his former realm war strategies...

[GIGO305]

your kiding me right? you out of all ppl making a hunter wants this tread. and i had respect for you! JK i know you are definetly kidding

[BlooD]

Originally Posted by Signatus

Thank God, who's supposed to be tanking anyway?... but that's assuming much, remove protector and dome from the frequent rolls not everyone has "bubble boy" maxed or even uses it unless to retreat for heals and mana communions... and Dome, I love it, too bad not every mage has it.

The last one was mine so i answer to it .

Change protector and precise block for Spell elude and Dodge and you got less save chances but you have range 30.

Dunno how you play, but at least in my clan if we are the same as always we had one bubble boy or 2 and conjurers with dome. Its just the best you can have this days....

The problem its the massive amount of save chances this game has no more.

[magnet]

Originally Posted by Signatus

I remember this... I whined too, it made no sense having a half sized dwarf holding a hammer twice his size able to catch a hunter with light armor and a wooden bow...

When will people (not you especially) understand this has nothing to do with RPG-elements logic but with GAMEDESIGN logic?!! Do chess players complain because the King is the slowest token, while the Queen the best? "But seriously Kings are usually way more trained than Queens, I mean they're girlzzz". This is a *MOOT* argument. The gamedesign argument tells that Barbs are not a ranged class, they must reach to their opponents, while hunters ARE a ranged class and if they are faster it's free kill and no challenge. It would be different if, say, they used daggers and not bows! The same goes with Knights imho, I personally can kill a Hunter but only if he runs out of patience and starts making mistakes... I know when I play hunter I can kill a Knight, I did kill a lv 50 with my lv 35 hunter ... That's overpowered, he could do nothing, it just took me 15 mins of extremely cowardly playing. (btw, just before dying he sat down with very few HPs and I spared him because I was ashamed of such lameness and I was just having a "proof of concept". This happened on Syrtis pb beach against Valinor so nothing to hide behind).

Originally Posted by Signatus

And... I whined about this too... but I must admit you can do nice stuff with them as they are now. However I must say I loved the previous camu, no better to deselect targets on enemies (you could actually go camu in the middle of a fight since few spells where able to cancel it, and escapist + camu combo worked fine on wars).

Yeah both camou give an awesome advantage to hunters. I think it defines the class and is totally fair. On the new one being offensive, however, this is a joke; they use it to escape easily in SotW so this is only a better camou but twice the cooldown as the previous one (fortunately ). However at the end of the day it depends of what Hunters do with that spell. If it's help their realm mates in RvR fights by surprising the enemy, that's one thing. If that's praying on expers it's lame imho (at least let them a *chance* to see you or to get back at you, for example Saguenay always let us had a PvP against her after she killed us leveling). And then there are those (I see a lot of that kind in Syrtis) who watch their realmmates die and remain invisible.

Originally Posted by Signatus

I don't have any problem about hunters being uncatchable by knights... I think it's suposed to be like that. But I must add that there aren't many hunters able to run away from a knight with maxed tactics and a barb with maxed warcries, specially because they aren't expecting it and cast escapist at spear range...

Knight with maxed tactics is not enough. It's 30%. With Mobility + Passive a Hunter is way faster. I have mobility lv 4 btw. Barbs can catch them until they SotW.

Originally Posted by Signatus

Dunno... wouldn't they be even more easier to kill after?! Because after mindsquash or crash or provocking blow + impale or disable limb + barb SC or... they aren't that hard to kill imho. But alas, probably I don't know what I'm talking about, only theory.

I do that, but Mindsquasher even lv 5 is 50% of chance, add it to all their layers of resist and you have actually like 20% of Mindsquashing them. I have screenshots of that against hunters, but it's the same with defensive marks.

And I they can keep their spells like I said, just that they should be balanced across different trees so that can't have them all at level 5 (or have to make real sacrifices)! That's all. Make new spells for them. Make GUI to control pets. Marksmen have a lot of viable setups without being so evasive too. And they have range, I play with some awesome Marks who know how to keep it . Evasion is like if Master of Doom, Soulkeeper, Vampirism, Meteor and Sultar's terror were all in the same tree; or Army of One + All the passive resist + passive const + passive block + precise block ...

It would be more challenging and more fun for everyone, Archers included.

[Signatus]

Originally Posted by BlooD

The last one was mine so i answer to it .

Hay, sorry, I had copy pasted so many magnet quotes that I forgot to change it.

Woooot, 2 bubble boys... Alsius grosooos tactics pawns again...

Originally Posted by magnet

When will people understand this has nothing to do with RPG-elements logic but with GAMEDESIGN logic?!! Do chess players complain because the King is the slowest token, while the Queen the best? "But seriously Kings are usually way more trained that Queens, I mean they're girlzzz". This is a *MOOT* argument. The gamedesign argument tells that Barbs are not a ranged class, they must reach to their opponents, while hunters ARE a ranged class and if they are faster it's free kill and no challenge. The same goes with Knights imho, I personally can kill a Hunter but only if he runs out of patience and starts making mistakes... I know when I play hunter I can kill a Knight, I did kill a lv 50 with my lv 35 hunter ... That's overpowered, he could do nothing, I just took me 15 mins of extremely cowardly playing. (btw, I sat down with very few HPs and I spared him because I was ashamed of such lameness and I was just having a "proof of concept". This happened on Syrtis pb beach against Valinor so nothing to hide behind).

I will understand it as soon as you remove the "RPG" from the "MMORPG" concept. It's also a RO game design being RvR meaning that "let the hunter get them and the barb will finish him off..." imho. Hunter Vs Knight has no news regarding Hunter ability to finish them when playing a pure hit and run style, when on arranged pvp it's a different story...

Originally Posted by magnet

Knight with maxed tactics is not enough. It's 30%. With Mobility + Passive a Hunter is way faster. I have mobility lv 4 btw. Barbs can catch them until they SotW.

I was talking about Knight+Barb together since it's rare to have barbs with maxed tactics (unless for pvp). And they will cast SoW IF they have mana and most of the times a second too late.

Originally Posted by magnet

I do that, but Mindsquasher even lv 5 is 50% of chance, add it to all their layers of resist and you have actually like 20% of Mindsquashing them. I have screenshots of that against hunters, but it's the same with defensive marks.

Add crash to shorten their evasion and/or whatever penalizes base dex, their evasion is gained by dex calculation (saving dodge according to the main accepted theory)... hey, I didn't said it was easy...

[magnet]

Originally Posted by Signatus

Add crash to shorten their evasion and/or whatever penalizes base dex, their evasion is gained by dex calculation (saving dodge according to the main accepted theory)... hey, I didn't said it was easy...

Crash is for swords users (to which I'll switch when I graduate); With spears (in my current setup until better sword), I can use Impale... It reduces evasion by 7.5 for 125 at mana 1 with casting time 2, it's really not a good bargain given the chance it has to be resisted itself Crash has casting time 3... That's huge.

[makarios68]

Originally Posted by Katiechan

The only thing that I would say is really overpowered is SotW+Camo, but there are ways to stop it, as was discussed.
Yes, those methods can be resisted, but it is only a chance. Think of it like reverse-Soulkeeper.

I agree with this - i really don't like the sow/camo combo. The longer camo times were supposed to make it more offensive, and sometimes it is used this way. But for many hunters it is almost entirely an escape route while in sow. I wonder if NGD wanted hunters to be escaping this way so often?

[makarios68]

I'd like to make something clear: hunters are not overpowered.

The sow/camo thing does not make make them overpowered - it simply allows them to act in a cowardly way (and they often do.) This is a seperate issue.

The numerous complaints about hunters being overpowered are nonesense. And my experience with my other chars bears this out.

At lvl 43/44 my marks and barb were killing lvl 50 hunters 1v1 - and sometimes this was when they got the jump on me while lvling.

Even my lvl 36 conj with zarkit managed to to trouble a lvl 50 hunter (lol - he cast sow/camo then came back later and killed me).

My own hunter has been killed many times by every class 1v1 - and only does less so now because i have tried my best to learn how to handle different classes.

My original post was a tongue-in-cheek poke at the people who get beat by hunters and reach immediately for the convenient idea that hunters are overpowered. This implies that they need to be nerfed.

Well, this is as ridiculous as my suggestion about making them stronger!!

[CumeriTarenes]

hey...what is balance?


In a balanced game every class is the same fun to play. But actually for most people hunters are most fun to play with.

Of course this is not because hunters are overpowered, there are other things that cause this....it is the game design (no reward for fort wars ect.) as well as technically problems (lag!!).

I agree that my pet and summon suggestions were a bit odd. But you see how people are reacting. Besides about 10 times red karma for this they mocked me, they laughed about me, they spam the forum. It is because people want to defend their own class, that's all. They just don't listen, people reacted in a similar way when I exposed the enemy surveillance bug. "Oh no....we will loose some powers, how can you say that. You are wrong."

Why is playing a hunter fun? Well, you can chose when to fight, you don't die that often due to high evasion and many escape possibilites, means you don't have to run that often from save to the action.

You can gain rp (and gaining rp is one of other purposes why people are playing) more easy when not much people are online because you can succesfully go hunting allone.

You have to use tactics, more than other classes. That means you don't sit just there and press on damage spell button after another. Beeing forced to use more tactics means more fun to play.

On the other hand...you don't have to worry when you cast ambush for example...it does not matter if it hits or not...your pet will do the job and attack while you cast. And when it is cast on you....don't care, the pet will attack while you are knocked. At this point my suggestions may be important.
I wanted to bring up some ideas how to change this point. Of course my ideas were not that well thought and I made them quite impulsive, but as I already said in another thread, you can talk about it, or not. Maybe you will come to a point where you see it is crap or you get new ideas when you talk about it. It is just a theory and not a "how to nerf hunters". But you see, people are feeling personally offended by it...so much that they make 2 identical posts and that they are starting mocking threads.

When I am playing there are barely fort fights. All I can do is either grinding or go hunting. Just to chat I can use other possibilitis, I don't have to be ingame for it. But most classes are developed for bigger fights...that is the main reason why playing a hunter is more fun...and having more fun with one class than with another one means imbalance.

[Comp]

Well this isn't a reason to modify hunters. Right now there aren't many fort fights because many complain about the lag. This is not the hunters fault.