Regarding the phrase "gelfs"

[Gideon_Slack]

Originally Posted by Kyrottimus

One more thing, I think more people should grow a backbone and/or a sense of humor.

I heard someone make a joke about Jews in realm chat about two weeks ago.

Someone objected to this joke, which used anti-Semitic stereotypes.

Should Jew jokes (along with "gelf" and gay as an insult) remain uncensored in Regnum?

Or was the person who objected in the wrong because he lacked a backbone or sense of humour?

[Shiriki]

Now... that heard as the stereotype that people only think of sex....

I know that better than anyone. I referred to the hypocrite steoreotype many have in hteir minds. I never said that I think gays are like that... that's why Piz comment surprised me...

BTW, Leviticus 18:22, 20:13, if you're interested in where it is written that homosexuality is a sin. Curiously enough, between those verses it is also written than tattoos are a sin, and that is it a sin to wear wool/linen blends. Also, sustainable agriculture is a sin. And eating fruit off a tree before its fourth year.....

Exactly. That's the old testament, that isn't applied now. That's why I like to think that Now, being gay is OK ^^

Goats are irrational animals, we could find being compared to them to be offensive in so many ways...

Well, I find 'goat' a complishment, goats are more intelligent than many humans I've met...

[Kyrottimus]

Originally Posted by Gideon_Slack

I heard someone make a joke about Jews in realm chat about two weeks ago.

Someone objected to this joke, which used anti-Semitic stereotypes.

Should Jew jokes (along with "gelf" and gay as an insult) remain uncensored in Regnum?

Or was the person who objected in the wrong because he lacked a backbone or sense of humour?

I fail to see the connection between using a single word, which could have several perceived connotations, and is purely subjective, vs. someone saying directly hateful, intentionally harmful sentences, phrases or jokes intended to either troll other players or just be downright mean, which in every literal and technical sense would not be taken any other way.

Sure, there are varying degrees of directness, and some people choose to be hostile in a more subtle manner, while others more blunt about it. I still fail to see how someone using a vague word without intended direct hostility can be lumped in with someone intending on causing a negative response.

In either case, I chose to /ignore at will, but before I do, I have a good laugh at the expense of whomever the pitiful, ignorant fool is spewing such vile vitriol.

Originally Posted by Shiriki

Well, I find 'goat' a complishment, goats are more intelligent than many humans I've met...

Huge +1

Plus, goats have like 4 stomachs. Last time I checked, 4 > 1.....take that human race!!!

[Gideon_Slack]

Originally Posted by Kyrottimus

[...]

I fail to see the connection between using a single word, which could have several perceived connotations, and is purely subjective, vs. someone saying directly hateful, intentionally harmful sentences, phrases or jokes intended to either troll other players or just be downright mean, which in every literal and technical sense would not be taken any other way.

[...]

In Regnum realm chat we have heard:

A) Jokes about Jews that invoke anti-Semitic stereotypes.

B) Words that invoke homophobic stereotypes about gay men (effeminate "gay elf" = gelf).

Why is A) bad and B) okay?

As far as I can tell, your criteria is intent of the person speaking.

But why is the intent of someone telling a Jew joke self-evident, while the intent of someone using a gay stereotype is not?

In fact, neither is, unless you're a mind-reader. All we have is the word of the person using the gay stereotype that they are not being hateful.

And why should we believe them anymore than the Jew joke teller who says he is not a racist?

[Kyrottimus]

Originally Posted by Gideon_Slack

In Regnum realm chat we have heard:

A) Jokes about Jews that invoke anti-Semitic stereotypes.

B) Words that invoke homophobic stereotypes about gay men (effeminate "gay elf" = gelf).

Why is A) bad and B) okay?

As far as I can tell, your criteria is intent of the person speaking.

But why is the intent of someone telling a Jew joke self-evident, while the intent of someone using a gay stereotype is not?

In fact, neither is, unless you're a mind-reader. All we have is the word of the person using the gay stereotype that they are not being hateful.

And why should we believe them anymore than the Jew joke teller who says he is not a racist?

Initially, though perhaps through misconstrued understanding, I perceived "gelf" to mean "green elf" (as opposed to red elf or "relf" from ignis). I'm sure "relf" will eventually be made into something derisive like "retarded elf" and then that's a whole other bag of worms that'll piss someone off, even if I was only saying "red elf" in a contraction.

I'll continue to use the word because that's how I intend it. If someone perceives it differently, then they perhaps are looking for something to be sensitive about. Telling a racist joke with a direct punchline does not leave much room for interpretation or subjective vagueness. One is a statement to be hostile, the other is just a word.

Whether I was wrong or not, this word is open to interpretation, because like it or not, "gelf" has more than one meaning in the grand RO lexicon.

And even if "gelf" means "gay elf", "gay" as a word has been around for centuries in Anglo-dialects to mean happy, joyous, jovial, etc. One might infer that Syrtis' architecture reflects a happy and esthetically uplifting theme, which may have more reason to apply for old-meaning "gay" than to elves who kill with bows / arrows and deadly magic (which does not sound very effeminate to me). Should one be so inclined, we can derive a myriad of meanings from such an old word.

[Arafails]

Originally Posted by WhateverUSMC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eD52OlkKfNs

Something that I thought might contribute to what you've laid out here...

Can't say I've ever watched "The West Wing" terribly much, but that is pure awesome hilarity.

@Shinken: Actually, Leviticus is not just a book of the Old Testament, it is one of the Torah, and so its contents can be considered as applicable to all Judaic religions (there are some differences in the Qu'ran, but these are largely considered as interpretive differences in transliteration, and the parts cited hold across both anyway), which accounts for a majority proportion of the "Western" world, and a not insignificant slice of the rest. Of course, to the validity of it all, it is hard for us to understand how the many seemingly contradictory parts of these holy books can be applied in the age of reason.

[UmarilsStillHere]

Find me a group of gay players using an elf who acctualy take offence to the phrase 'gelf' and this thread will gain some sort of impact.

Anyone who is gay and secure in their sexuality wont care if they get called a gelf, after all they are gay, they are playing a realm full of elfs, so what?

Anyone who isnt gay and gets offended by being called 'gelf' needs to take a quick reality check, they are not using the phrase to insinuate that you are gay any more than that you are in fact an elf. Its just a nick name/steryotype for the realm, you see the same steryotypes IRL Americans are fat, Irish are drunkards, French have an unhelathy obbsession with bread etc...

Im tall, I dont get angry at people calling me lofty, shorty, what ever you need to be able to laugh at yourself.

Bottem line for me is if you cant take being called a jokey name in a MMO then you must have real issues IRL, grow a pair and get over it.

[Arafails]

Umaril, you have really strong opinions on people having stupid opinions, don't you?

I have to agree though. In my opinion, the only people who could possibly be offended by the term "gay elf" are not only homophobic but also insecure of their own sexuality.

[UmarilsStillHere]

Originally Posted by Arafails

Umaril, you have really strong opinions on people having stupid opinions, don't you?

Pretty much,

Its just a silly name, there no intended harm attatched to it so anyone taking offence is getting worked up over 'insults' that they are creating themselfs.

We call Alsians Goats, dosnt mean we literaly mean they are all 4 legged farm animals.

I do get annoyed when people take every day things and try to wrap them up in 'political correctness' incase it offends some insecure guy somewhere, 'censoring' something a trivial as this would be like banning chants at Football matches.

[Pizdzius]

Originally Posted by Shiriki

I never said that I think gays are like that... that's why Piz comment surprised me...

Try to recognise a joke :P

The thing is, I'm really surprised someone actually got upset about the gelf phrase :P IF gay people don't mind, then why bother to talk about it? Nobody is harmed! It's just a game language, not a parade against gay, jews or black people. Chill out.