This immunity thing has to stop...

[VandaMan]

With the new warmaster quest, I think we should just scrap immunity altogether, realm gates included. Currently this quest suggests that during an invasion we should endanger our realm's goal of successfully opening the portal, by running off to kill some NPC. I think we've seen more than enough evidence that invulnerability does not do anything to encourage a realm to go on the offensive:

Originally Posted by http://rostatus.heroku.com/stats/horus

Alsius
Attack/Defense Ratio: 0.84
Favorite Forts: Menirah Fort (44.44%)

In case you haven't taken a close look at this stats page, it says that in the last 30 days the ratio of Alsius taking an enemy fort to enemies taking an Alsius fort is .84. This means that even though Alsius forts have been invulnerable for almost half of the reporting period, they were still captured more often than Alsius captured an enemy fort.

I think penalizing a realm for having no gems is the only way guaranteed to encourage them to take the offensive, if forcing them to take the offense is really what you want to do. Yes I know, "boohoo this is totally unfair, we're underpopulated and you everyone will quit if you penalize us because we lost our gems..." but the new invasion mechanics encourage realms to work together offensively, up to the point of endangering the enemy gate. It's extremely easy to put realm gates in danger if both realms really want to play offense, and if all realms are given a reason to play offense (portal opening for realm with gems, removing gemless penalty for realm without gems) gems should change hands quite frequently.

[Kitsuni]

Originally Posted by VandaMan

With the new warmaster quest, I think we should just scrap immunity altogether, realm gates included. Currently this quest suggests that during an invasion we should endanger our realm's goal of successfully opening the portal, by running off to kill some NPC. I think we've seen more than enough evidence that invulnerability does not do anything to encourage a realm to go on the offensive:



In case you haven't taken a close look at this stats page, it says that in the last 30 days the ratio of Alsius taking an enemy fort to enemies taking an Alsius fort is .84. This means that even though Alsius forts have been invulnerable for almost half of the reporting period, they were still captured more often than Alsius captured an enemy fort.

I think penalizing a realm for having no gems is the only way guaranteed to encourage them to take the offensive, if forcing them to take the offense is really what you want to do. Yes I know, "boohoo this is totally unfair, we're underpopulated and you everyone will quit if you penalize us because we lost our gems..." but the new invasion mechanics encourage realms to work together offensively, up to the point of endangering the enemy gate. It's extremely easy to put realm gates in danger if both realms really want to play offense, and if all realms are given a reason to play offense (portal opening for realm with gems, removing gemless penalty for realm without gems) gems should change hands quite frequently.

Do you live in some kind of dream world? The last time we helped Ignis invade Syrtis, and attempted to get the gems ourselves, both were lost to Ignis. There is an extreme risk involved when helping an "ally" invade the other realm, because that "ally" can then turn around and use that wish to penalize you. On top of this, even if we get the gems back, Ignis will just have them again the next night after that. There's no reason to play dumb anymore - everyone knows very well that Ignis is fully capable of getting the gems whenever they feel like it, and will. The only thing that held them back for a while was Syrtis cooperating with Alsius, but even that ultimately wasn't enough.

Ignis as a realm just has too much IRL cooperation that goes far beyond the game, no other realms can match that, no matter how hard we have tried (and we have, believe me). So ultimately the invulnerability will have to be removed and replaced with gate invulnerability only. Then - having no gems will be a blessing, as we will still be able to have fort wars but will not be under the threat of nightly invasions and penalties from wishes, because time zone imbalance and extensive coordination beyond the scope of the game isn't something that can really be fixed or mitigated.

It's called just letting people play the game, has anyone ever thought about it?

[_Seinvan]

Originally Posted by VandaMan

With the new warmaster quest, I think we should just scrap immunity altogether, realm gates included. Currently this quest suggests that during an invasion we should endanger our realm's goal of successfully opening the portal, by running off to kill some NPC. I think we've seen more than enough evidence that invulnerability does not do anything to encourage a realm to go on the offensive:



In case you haven't taken a close look at this stats page, it says that in the last 30 days the ratio of Alsius taking an enemy fort to enemies taking an Alsius fort is .84. This means that even though Alsius forts have been invulnerable for almost half of the reporting period, they were still captured more often than Alsius captured an enemy fort.

I think penalizing a realm for having no gems is the only way guaranteed to encourage them to take the offensive, if forcing them to take the offense is really what you want to do. Yes I know, "boohoo this is totally unfair, we're underpopulated and you everyone will quit if you penalize us because we lost our gems..." but the new invasion mechanics encourage realms to work together offensively, up to the point of endangering the enemy gate. It's extremely easy to put realm gates in danger if both realms really want to play offense, and if all realms are given a reason to play offense (portal opening for realm with gems, removing gemless penalty for realm without gems) gems should change hands quite frequently.

2 points here Van

1. We'd be able to take a completely offensive stance if our save/market wasn't camped 24/7, as mentioned previously. 2 days ago there was a mediocre invasion attempt where your gate was 5 mins or so from being vulnerable (but Syrtis dropped the ball at Samal ). Saying that Alsius hasn't been trying an offense is false. Everything is camped because of this damned event, the warmaster quests, and the shitty immune forts system.

2. Meni/Alga are generally our only options because its the only way we can get away from you guys. From what little fort action there has been, Meni has been the most fun. :P Fort wars are obsolete now because of the event, and Alsius wants to fix that. We've tried to go to Samal/Herb plenty of times, but we always meet our enemies halfway to the fort and end up getting zerged over.

And btw, the constant camping of our oc/market/save is penalty enough.

[VandaMan]

Originally Posted by Kitsunie

...

If ignis can take the gems any time they want, then why have we only opened the portal 3 times since warmasters, even though we've tried almost every night? More importantly, this has nothing to do with all the realm drama of horus. Take a step back for a moment and give it real consideration, without your constant "we're so underpopulated and ignis are big bad meanies that ruin everything" bias.

Some basic goals that will make the invasion system more fun without making drastic changes:
1) Everyone should want to invade.
2) Invasions should be possible during all hours of the day.
3) Invasions should be commonplace, and gems should change realms frequently.

All realms want to open their portal and make a wish, the realm with the most gems is closest to this goal, and most motivated to invade. If the realm with the least gems is penalized by default (let's say it's rlm xp for the sake of argument) they're also motivated to invade. This further facilitates the offensive teamwork suggested by recent invasion mechanic changes, and makes invasions much more likely to occur, and much more likely to succeed.

If invasions become more common and succeed more often, there will be no need to plan off-hours zerging invasions. If a portal is opened nearly every week, there will be no reason for all the forum boasting and ranting that occurs after each portal opening currently - there will be less "hard feelings" between players. If gems change hands frequently, a penalty for having no gems is just a good reason to get get some gems right now.

You're used to thinking that the most disadvantaged realm always has the fewest gems, but with the new system once a gate is in danger, it takes relatively few players to knock it down and take a gem out. After the point of gate vulnerability, numbers become less of a factor than speed and communication.

Your concerns about portal openings and the xp penalty reward are of course well founded, but completely irrelevant to the point. Remove the xp penalty option from the votes for all I care, but make invasions fun, make them so everyone wants to and is able to participate, and make them occur more often than just when someone can convince 60 friends to log on at 3 in the morning.

[Gabburtjuh]

Numbers still count so much Van, one fort lost and everything, getting vuln, being vuln or broken, is fixed, getting a camped fort back with around a equal force will be close to impossible, so invading with 40 is possible, but if the other realm has 20, they can just either, run over: fort 1, fort 2, castle or the gem group.

[VandaMan]

Originally Posted by Gabburtjuh

Numbers still count so much Van, one fort lost and everything, getting vuln, being vuln or broken, is fixed, getting a camped fort back with around a equal force will be close to impossible, so invading with 40 is possible, but if the other realm has 20, they can just either, run over: fort 1, fort 2, castle or the gem group.

I'm not sure I see how that has any relevance to what I just said. I often wonder how many people on this forum read the posts they reply to.

Originally Posted by VandaMan

After the point of gate vulnerability, numbers become less of a factor than speed and communication.

[isgandarli]

I really miss war at Aggy...

(Ignean player)

[Gabburtjuh]

Originally Posted by VandaMan

I'm not sure I see how that has any relevance to what I just said. I often wonder how many people on this forum read the posts they reply to.

I do, why would they become less of a factor, even a noob like me with tactics, could think of the simple tactic: Everyone at gate in the begin, if they bring more for that, you all die oblivously, spawn at your wz save, and get to a fort that's now way less populated as before, and with just 2 or 3 barbs the gate takes under 1 minute, which is probably less as the time needed to run back from the gate to the fort.

[VandaMan]

Originally Posted by Gabburtjuh

I do, why would they become less of a factor, even a noob like me with tactics, could think of the simple tactic: Everyone at gate in the begin, if they bring more for that, you all die oblivously, spawn at your wz save, and get to a fort that's now way less populated as before, and with just 2 or 3 barbs the gate takes under 1 minute, which is probably less as the time needed to run back from the gate to the fort.

I'm glad you willingly admit to being a noob with tactics, because you've completely overlooked several factors here. You have 15 minutes from the start of the invasion, to the time your gate is under attack. Even if you want to completely abandon any attempt to recapture a fort before your gate is vulnerable, you would be hard pressed to gather everyone to the gate in 15 minutes. In most cases it would be much smarter to try to get a fort back first, and once you've started you will never recall your zerg to your realm gate in time.

Ignoring that, let's say you did get everyone online to the gate:

Scenario 1) If you successfully defend it against the small group of attackers, then you're in the exact same situation as before: they still have all of your forts, and your gate is still vulnerable. They can try as many times as they like, and if you leave to get back your forts they will get inside. You will have to leave eventually.

The main gate is so weak a single marksmen can take it down from 50 meters away, even if you do camp at it, the gate will fall. Once it's down getting a gem is a simple matter of using camo and stalker. If a gem has been grabbed, there is no way you will take back your forts in time to lock down the gate unless you were at the fort already.

Scenario 2) The invading realm's small group of attackers fails, so they send a larger group, weakening their defenses at the forts and castles. Your group at the gate is run over, and you rez at CS. You now have to take back one of the forts the invading realm has taken players from to the gate before they are able to get the gems out. This fort is likely to be the furthest one from your save, still guarded by a few and level 4. You may get it in time, and you may not, but if you fail you have just given the invading realm a free pass to leave with the gems.

-----------------------

As far offtopic as that was, I think it's a good illustration of how much different invasions are now than they were with the old system. Your realm is no longer forced to one "hot spot" where the action will occur, and if you attempt to play like this now you will fail. After a gate is vulnerable, both the offense and the defense have to fight on multiple fronts, and this is why numbers are a less important factor than they were in the old system.

The only problem is that this depends on the assumption that all realms want to invade all other realms at all times. Currently they do not.

[A_K_M]

Off Topic:
Im kind of split in this new mechanics, I dont like it for some reasons, but I like it for others. I do believe however it focus' more on the smaller groups, and the skills of the individual in that group. I like that, makes it feel like when horus was new. There was no " Fuck it, we will just get more people later" mentality that I have seen for the past two years or so. Theres a sense of individualism as well as teamwork. Your own performance directly impacts the success of the group. Its not like you have 10 of each class at your back and muscel your way in. You have to be clever, quick, decisive, and above all else, as ruthless as possible. Yeah, maybe I put too much into the game but hey, its been a while since I could say I actually cared.

Yeah, you tried helping Ignis. However our motto has pretty much always been " If its not red, its dead ". We do not discriminate. All you have to do is be faster, smarter and more creative then us. Good luck because Ignis has some of the most creative people I have ever met.


On Topic:

I do think the immunity needs to end.