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Old 02-26-2012, 11:37 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Seher View Post
A good ranged vs melee system involves both running and fighting. Are you with me there? I hope so. This means warriors should reach their ranged enemies (soon), but at the same time the ranged ones should still be able to get away (a bit). That's an insecure balance, even if implemented well, because the ranged classes need to be similarly fast as the melee ones for this to work out well. Now guess what happens when one side somehow gets a HUGE and LONG LASTING (!!) speed boost. Yeah, right, the ranged class lacks the moments of distance it needs to stand a chance, or there even is no fight because the melee class doesn't ever reach the enemy.
That is, unless both groups have a war master amongst them.

Essentially the point you're trying to drive, is that a player with war master status gives an (/unfair, debatable) advantage versus a group without.

Yes. Where is the problem? This is the point.


I can understand it is exceedingly annoying for the group without but there has to be a noticeable benefit to the status. Do not try arguing that the benefits are unbalanced, it's far too convoluted an issue to begin discussing it and a lot of the points that might be raised are bogged down in personal grievances - I do not have the time nor patience to sift through it all.

Groups of players should be able to disengage from a battle, of course the success of this varies constantly - you cannot say that there either is a fight or there is not; some players fall behind in a withdrawal and are consequently taken down while others escape. The system works vice versa as well.

Put simply,
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Originally Posted by _Enio_ View Post
fighting WM as non WM is even more frustrating then both sides WMd.
Frustration is of course variable in each different scenario, but the majority of the blame lies at the doorstep of the Offensive Beacon, not Horn of the Wind.
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Old 02-26-2012, 12:02 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by isaacrulzrs2 View Post
Frustration is of course variable in each different scenario, but the majority of the blame lies at the doorstep of the Offensive Beacon, not Horn of the Wind.
I agree on Off. Beacon being the main source of frustration.

Im not totally happy with Horn design, but considering in RvR youll have uptime on both sides this is a minor issue opposed to Off. Beacon which either way renders the majority of cc useless.
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Old 02-26-2012, 12:03 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by isaacrulzrs2 View Post
That is, unless both groups have a war master amongst them.

Essentially the point you're trying to drive, is that a player with war master status gives an (/unfair, debatable) advantage versus a group without.

Yes. Where is the problem? This is the point.
That - yes. An advantage. This is beyond simple advantages though. Ranged vs melee balance is incredibly difficult, and it has always been rather bad in Regnum, and with horn of the wind it will never get any better.
It is NOT the point that 2 ranged warmasters can easily kill ANY amount of warriors and be untouchable. No. It's not. Don't try to argue there.
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Originally Posted by isaacrulzrs2 View Post
you cannot say that there either is a fight or there is not
No? That's basically what it is.

And no matter what you adjust, the problem will always stay. This is not about imbalances and overpowered classes/situations (my posts rarely are, by the way), this is about a completely ruined game play. Running is part of a complex system of when warriors will be able to hit and when not, this can't work if players have different "base speeds". It just can't. It blocks off all interesting dynamics of ranged vs melee balance. You can't simply say "speed boost spell xy means this class won't take damage from warriors for 10 seconds". You can't create the distance between players that is so important for ranged classes while making sure they are still somewhat in reach. You can't make warriors get close to ranged enemies while making sure they won't stay there (which once again kills off the whole purpose of ranged vs melee balance).

Was anyone from a major company, someone responsible for balance there (gw, wow, whatever, even someone from swtor, and their balance is crap), to ever see these spells (offensive beacon is just about as dumb, just not so omnipresent), he'd laugh his ass off. Well, or maybe not. I've seen incredibly dumb stuff in other games, too. Just nothing THAT dumb.

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Originally Posted by _Enio_ View Post
Im not totally happy with Horn design, but considering in RvR youll have uptime on both sides this is a minor issue opposed to Off.
The situation is not that bad because of this, yes. But does that make the concept any better? A spell supposed to be something special for some players is just acceptable because every last player is affected by it all the time anyway? Okay, you can argue there, warmasters are supposed to run the group and this is basic team play, I guess I can go with that. It's still not that much of a benefit to RvR that it justifies screwing PvP completely. (It's no benefit at all, imo)
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Old 02-26-2012, 12:12 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Seher View Post
That - yes. An advantage. This is beyond simple advantages though. Ranged vs melee balance is incredibly difficult, and it has always been rather bad in Regnum, and with horn of the wind it will never get any better.
I agree, i think to make these fights more dynamic in that sense spells that indirectly allow melee to have impact on range would be interesting (i.e. spell reflect or a buff thatd stun the attacker for x seconds).

However thats another step, currently we arnt even at a point to improve balance - for balancing concerns we would need a state of game where the spells the classes have been designed around are usable.
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Originally Posted by Seher View Post
The situation is not that bad because of this, yes. But does that make the concept any better? A spell supposed to be something special for some players is just acceptable because every last player is affected by it all the time anyway? Okay, you can argue there, warmasters are supposed to run the group and this is basic team play, I guess I can go with that. It's still not that much of a benefit to RvR that it justifies screwing PvP completely. (It's no benefit at all, imo)
As i said, i dont like the concept behind Horn very much. Especially for its implications on fights when theres no uptime on both sides but for now i see the priority on the off. beacon which effectively changes the whole base to balance upon.
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Old 02-26-2012, 12:20 PM   #55
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The frustration lies at a multiplicity of doors. Warmasters just magnified already existing issues.
What balancing was gradually fixing, Warmasters broke again in one swoop.

Horn, HP boost, Resistance layer all just are magnifiers.

As for the power point sink, yes ,in and of itself it might not solve too much but then if you remember, I wrote about a whole revamp and my assertions are towards that idea. Remember, with my idea Warmaster powers come in at 52 (for a singular power) and you get up to 3 (or 4) by the time you got 60. The question is, would it be a worse or better platform to launch fixes from? Another question, Would it actually be any worse that things are now ? Besides, read it in the context of my whole post.
I posted based on this context :http://www.regnumonlinegame.com/foru...4&postcount=93

The idea of warmasters was like a carrot on a stick to sell premium items. As such they had to bait you to level 60. Notice how they never mentioned what was at the end till someone achieved it and posted. I am also willing to bet that NGD underestimated how fast dedicated players would get there too.
Also remember Enio, that Warmasters spells are simply patches to plug gaping holes that the warmaster update itself opened up not to mention the minor ones that were already there and got magnified by the level cap raise.

My system suggested you have fun and enjoy the journey. Not much spike money but sustained growth that would settle at higher and higher base revenue levels.
Also remember that NGD aims to extend wars. This means armies lasting longer. They will be unwilling to adjust Warmaster powers because of this. Introducing Warmasters with this spell set is infinitely easier than going back and fixing the conventional spells and other base equations that would fix the game on a foundation level and extend wars from that angle.

In any case this is an intellectual debate and as far as I am concerned, this game is now at the stage where NGD will simply implement higher level components, squeeze it for revenue, learn from the mistakes here, collate ideas and deploy them in their next prototype MMO.
The next one should be much better from a conceptual angle so I post hoping that the next one will be superior to this one in every way.

Last edited by bois; 02-26-2012 at 12:31 PM.
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Old 02-26-2012, 12:53 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by bois View Post
In any case this is an intellectual debate and as far as I am concerned, this game is now at the stage where NGD will simply implement higher level components, squeeze it for revenue, learn from the mistakes here, collate ideas and deploy them in their next prototype MMO.
I agree on most points and i fear the quoted last paragraph touches the truth. I still hope NGD will bething of the old unique gameplay and add improvements. General RvR balance wasnt that off before warmasters and i believe a few tweaks and additions wouldve kept the gameplay fun in RvR fights intact. Currently it just feels they lost the spirit and became too much of a business.
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Old 02-26-2012, 01:24 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bois View Post
In any case this is an intellectual debate and as far as I am concerned, this game is now at the stage where NGD will simply implement higher level components, squeeze it for revenue, learn from the mistakes here, collate ideas and deploy them in their next prototype MMO.
The next one should be much better from a conceptual angle so I post hoping that the next one will be superior to this one in every way.
I'd actually love that. Regnum becoming kind of a development playground. But that means they should actually test things. Balance. Radical changes. And stuff. It would be expensive, yes, but it would definitely pay off, for later games, too. The knowledge you can obtain is incredibly valuable.
They revamped a whole class completely and quite radically at Guild Wars. YEARS after they published the last expansion. Why? Knowledge, I guess. GW1 is a playground for testing balance for them. And while they don't have to fear players leaving, they still have to fear players not trusting the company enough to buy GW2, so it definitely is a risk for them, too. But the knowledge is worth the risk.
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Old 02-26-2012, 01:48 PM   #58
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A lot of blalalalalalala for nothin can i remeber you the title of this thread ?
Question to NGD

They doesn't answer, and a lot answers for them, NGD have just to laugh
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Old 02-27-2012, 12:22 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by GIO879 View Post
A lot of blalalalalalala for nothin can i remeber you the title of this thread ?
Question to NGD

They doesn't answer, and a lot answers for them, NGD have just to laugh
Indeed no answers at all. Anyway NGD have many things to deal with and not just messing around making usless stuff
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