balance Update 2011 Stage 1 - Summary

[_Nel_]

Originally Posted by DemonMonger

I never said 1vs1.

You are the only one saying this not me...

Oops my bad, i thought you were the OP of this thread, full of 1vs1 references for "the core problem of balance".
> http://www.regnumonline.com.ar/forum...ad.php?t=79215

Originally Posted by DemonMonger

It takes more than 2 seconds to pop off some skills combined with global cooldown.

When I read this, I still think you play alone.

Originally Posted by DemonMonger

For example, in war if you knock someone for a short duration, it does not give your allies time to even target them.

You got it!! That's exactly the point of reducing CC duration. If you get knocked, immob or anything else, you won't systematically die.

@ Seher
I've read you talked about 4 sec. But anyway, I don't care if level 1 spells are 2 sec, it's still enough to break an enemy combo, to give enough time to your allies to run away or to catch a runner. And if it's not, I'll make a choice and will get rid of some CC spells to improve few ones.


PS:
Sorry for derailing this thread. :/
I didn't want to post in it since Seher made the complete resume
> http://www.regnumonline.com.ar/forum....php?p=1377741
And Bois made the concise one focused on NGD suggestions.
> http://www.regnumonline.com.ar/forum....php?p=1377825
I think both give a good picture of what think Regnum community.

[bois]

Originally Posted by Torcida

People who can't pvp (the majority of the people) want CC's to be nerfed jut too bully the minority of the people that actually do like pvp.

Your CC is weaker , your opponents CC is equally weaker, where is the difference except for the fact you cannot pin or debilitate your opponent "forever". You might actually have to rely on debuffs which do not stop the opponent but slightly weaken one of their facets. So does your opponent.

I don't see the problem. PvP might actually improve. Of course 'improve' might mean more risk for you, something you may be uncomfortable with.

[Topogigio_BR]

I just think the more dps you have the less CC's you should have.
So defensive subclasses like hunters, conjus and knights should rely more on CC's than marks, barbs and warlocks. Specially knock downs.
Maybe NGD could make something like Insighfull spells for defensive classes to boos CCs for this classes.

[53453467734534]

CCs (and AE-CCs) are as important in RvR as in PvP

Here the reason:
http://www.regnumonline.com.ar/forum...&postcount=101

This:
http://www.regnumonline.com.ar/forum...8&postcount=15

"Knocks duration (all knocks, not only warrior) would be:

5: 6 seconds : 2 hits very slow weapon , 3 hits medium weapon
4: 5 seconds : 2 hits slow weapon , 3 hits fast weapon
3: 4 seconds : 2 hits medium weapon
2: 3,5 seconds: 2 hits fast weapon
1: 3 seconds : 1 hit everyone

Now, it´s: 8,7,6,5,4
It would be a nerf"

was my suggestion to reduce the time someone is knocked.
Other CCs may receive similar nerfs, but don´t use the sledgehammer.

And keep in mind that you really NEED knocks in fort battles.
(because of: http://www.regnumonline.com.ar/forum...&postcount=160)

[Seher]

"That´s why it isn´t a bad thing at all if someone can kill multiple enemies, if everything is done perfectly."

Of course. But do CCs really help there? Currently you can die due to CCs without having made any mistake at all. There are situations in which you can't do a thing, and that shouldn't happen.

CCs in general aren't bad, just those that leave you without options are. Knock downs. That's why knock downs should never have a significant duration. Other stuff that doesn't touch your ability to cast spells meaning you can still fight back (you can argue here about how much stuns and slows take the ability to fight back from warriors) may last longer, and there should even be more ways to get rid of certain effects on yourself (something of a weaker dispel), etc, but all that doesn't matter when you can't cast.

Originally Posted by _Nel_

I've read you talked about 4 sec.

4 second for knocks without, and 2 seconds for knocks with 100% weapon damage, that's the way I'd go. 2/4 seconds duration on every level then, though. (Just as you said, even 2 seconds are enough to make a significant difference, and once the spell has 100% weapon damage additionally it's always better than a normal hit)

[53453467734534]

Of course. But do CCs really help there? Currently you can die due to CCs without having made any mistake at all. There are situations in which you can't do a thing, and that shouldn't happen.

Not saying, that these situations never happen, but probably more often than not, you (someone) have done a mistake BEFORE. You haven´t skilled (or used in a meaningful way) protective spells (for example UM). You could have run away. You could have dizzied your enemy before, you have seen him to late to act accordingly.... I don´t say, don´t nerf them a bit, but a brute-force method will have undesirable consequences as listed (see links) above.

CCs in general aren't bad, just those that leave you without options are. Knock downs. That's why knock downs should never have a significant duration. Other stuff that doesn't touch your ability to cast spells meaning you can still fight back (you can argue here about how much stuns and slows take the ability to fight back from warriors) may last longer, and there should even be more ways to get rid of certain effects on yourself (something of a weaker dispel), etc, but all that doesn't matter when you can't cast.

I understand it. See my first-ever post here http://www.regnumonline.com.ar/forum...ad.php?t=67347
and this: http://www.regnumonline.com.ar/forum...26&postcount=3
But currently there is effectively no option to hinder the defender to click the gate to go in again besides knock downs.
There are mostly asymmetric battles.
This is the "Ebb and Flow"-principle with strong momentums for both sides. Better win 1 out of 5 battles outnumbered and lose 4 of them in a dramatic fashion, than losing all of them everytime, because you can´t create strong "tides" as you can now because of strong CCs.

I keep my suggestion (3; 3,5 ; 4 ; 5 ; 6)

[Seher]

Originally Posted by 53453467734534

Not saying, that these situations never happen, but probably more often than not, you (someone) have done a mistake BEFORE. You haven´t skilled (or used in a meaningful way) protective spells (for example UM).

That's what I can agree with. No setup should be able to handle everything.

Originally Posted by 53453467734534

You could have run away.

Running is lame :P (Couldn't resist)

Originally Posted by 53453467734534

You could have dizzied your enemy before, you have seen him to late to act accordingly

And that's what I can't agree with. A fight shouldn't have a determined outcome because of ONE SINGLE mistake. Maybe, if it's a fatal one, but something like casting a long lasting dizzy like BoW 1 second too late? That's what determines outcomes of fights now in Regnum. Small mistakes should just decrease your chance to win a bit, and not mark your grave. And in a fight without major mistakes on both sides everyone should be able to win at any point of the fight, ideally up until the end, but with huge struggling then. (Getting THAT to work is very difficult though)

Any longer CC can drive gameplay a bit more to pre-determined fights, and I fear that 6 seconds knock down are still not enough to compensate for the increase of speed and mobility in Regnum.

Originally Posted by 53453467734534

But currently there is effectively no option to hinder the defender to click the gate to go in again besides knock downs.

Oh shit ;D That's something I would've forgotten. (But well, something like that easily gets noticed within 10 minutes of testing, still that proves yet again you can't think of everything in theory)
Entering and exiting doors needs a cast time then, for sure. I mean, this infinite popping in, popping out, etc, is just annoying bullshit anyway. A nice cast time (1-3 seconds, don't know, what's the best there is something just experience can show) you can interrupt wouldn't hurt anyone and stop it.

[53453467734534]

Small mistakes should just decrease your chance to win a bit, and not mark your grave. And in a fight without major mistakes on both sides everyone should be able to win at any point of the fight, ideally up until the end, but with huge struggling then. (Getting THAT to work is very difficult though)

This will work if both armies are equally strong. That is mostly not the case in Regnum. If mistakes are not (or only on a large scale) the deciding factor, raw numbers (the larger army) will rule the battlefield. I have explained it already.

Any longer CC can drive gameplay a bit more to pre-determined fights, and I fear that 6 seconds knock down are still not enough to compensate for the increase of speed and mobility in Regnum.

I admit that a successful (area-)CC effect may determine the outcome of a battle (strong tide/ momentum), but at the beginning long CCs (including areas) will create many possible outcomes, because mistakes matter, while
short CCs (including areas) will not create strong momentums, so larger armies willl eventually win. And this would be a death sentence for a game, whose parties can´t be balanced for numerical strength.

Oh shit ;D That's something I would've forgotten. (But well, something like that easily gets noticed within 10 minutes of testing, still that proves yet again you can't think of everything in theory)
Entering and exiting doors needs a cast time then, for sure. I mean, this infinite popping in, popping out, etc, is just annoying bullshit anyway. A nice cast time (1-3 seconds, don't know, what's the best there is something just experience can show) you can interrupt wouldn't hurt anyone and stop it.

That is one of the dangers of radical changes
Another one is that it is possible to alienate customers.

A door cast time would be a good thing by the way.

I think 6 seconds are enough.
Or more situational Anti-CC spells (see Links)...
This would reward skillfull playing.

[Torcida]

Originally Posted by HuntShot

Ofcourse. So you're saying making all cc's 20secs knock down or dizzy will help the game go smoother? Play faster? etc. Yeah right.. like that will help. If the CC's get nerfed to lower duration without a doubt this will definitely help the dynamics in RO.

20 seconds >.< most people have their knockdowns on 6-8 seconds

[Torcida]

Originally Posted by bois

Your CC is weaker , your opponents CC is equally weaker, where is the difference except for the fact you cannot pin or debilitate your opponent "forever". You might actually have to rely on debuffs which do not stop the opponent but slightly weaken one of their facets. So does your opponent.

I don't see the problem. PvP might actually improve. Of course 'improve' might mean more risk for you, something you may be uncomfortable with.

How could this have ANY possitive effects on PvP? Like I said earlier Nerfing doesn't bring more dynamic to the game, This update just brings more useless spells and I really don't seethe reason for that.