Per class population

[doppelapfel]

Originally Posted by Fritsossss

Maybe you are right, and i am to fast with my opinion but a lvl 40 conjurer has 2200-2300 hp, i can heal him 400 while a barb sometimes need just 2 hits to kill his barrier and all his hp.
I dont think it will work, as conjurer i feel usefull now without area's (im most of the time only using pylon and GH at door wars) but with that 20% i cant heal much even whith knight aura's

No barb will kill a lvl 40 conju with eb in two hits anymore after the overall dmg reduction. One of the points you missed. Youve also ignored the tools a lvl 40 conju can use beside eb (selheal/regen, steel skin, karma mirror, sanct.).
I like the change of healing because it makes the hpdifference between warriors and archers/mages something worth. Before it made no real defense how much hp you have because if you get constantly healed like in war it doesnt matter, both get the same amount hp. Now the hpbar is more important.

[e30G]

It's not really about the disparity between heals on mages against warriors. It's how such a system will hurt healing low levels in war and the additional mana costs Conjurers will endure to support a war army since they will have to cast even more.

From my tests so far, it was damn frustrating having to cast the same spell over and over again the same target just to keep him alive against a mob. It could be balanced but it's just terrible to play that way.

[doppelapfel]

Originally Posted by e30ernest

It's not really about the disparity between heals on mages against warriors. It's how such a system will hurt healing low levels in war and the additional mana costs Conjurers will endure to support a war army since they will have to cast even more.

Are you really sure that conjus will have to heal more? Dont forget the new/fixed knight spells.

From my tests so far, it was damn frustrating having to cast the same spell over and over again the same target just to keep him alive against a mob. It could be balanced but it's just terrible to play that way.

From my tests it is still easy to support two grinders (did not test with more ppl). You have to use heal ally more often, thats right but i dont see this as a negative point. Before i had to use maybe 6 spells per minute, 2x regen, 4x synergy bound and could read the rest of the time or do anything else.

[e30G]

Originally Posted by doppelapfel

Are you really sure that conjus will have to heal more? Dont forget the new/fixed knight spells.

You are right. We can heal less since the spell's worth is way less now. Might as well bring the old mentalist setups back to life.

The problem with these healing spells is that it's too centric to level 50s. Also I expect to see a lot of focused fire more with the changes NGD made. Even now with the current heals you see targets die in less than 5 seconds in war. Heal Ally was good at buying some time here specially if you cannot dispel a CC'd target. On the Amun system, I wouldn't even bother to waste my mana for that.

Originally Posted by doppelapfel

You have to use heal ally more often, thats right but i dont see this as a negative point.

I do. It's akin to casting nothing but South Cross over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.......

Originally Posted by doppelapfel

Before i had to use maybe 6 spells per minute, 2x regen, 4x synergy bound and could read the rest of the time or do anything else.

6 spells only? You have an easy life.

[Zordak]

Originally Posted by doppelapfel

Are you really sure that conjus will have to heal more? Dont forget the new/fixed knight spells.

So to actually stay alive you will now not only need a conjurer to DI you you will also need a knight with auras to reduce the damage to a level you can cope with with the new heal ally?
I dont see any progress in class balance from this point of view.

Originally Posted by doppelapfel

From my tests it is still easy to support two grinders (did not test with more ppl). You have to use heal ally more often, thats right but i dont see this as a negative point. Before i had to use maybe 6 spells per minute, 2x regen, 4x synergy bound and could read the rest of the time or do anything else.

I dont think taking a comfortable "i can read while doing it" levelling assistance situation as basis for balancing a class-defining spell.
From my game experience heal ally is almost allways on cooldown. It only isnt when i am out of mana. The latter problem is not being adressed at all, reduced effect of the new spell did not come with a mana cost reduction, a cooldown reduction or a cast time removal. You will need - including gcd - 50s and 1200 mana to fully restore an ally now. Ironically it is cheaper to just let him die and revive him - unless he has more than 5k hp. And actually not much faster than having him rest.

Heal ally is the only spell that can actually make a target survive the next blow, and for mages, archers and lowlevels of any kind it will not fulfill this function anymore.

Z.

[doppelapfel]

Originally Posted by e30ernest

You are right. We can heal less since the spell's worth is way less now. Might as well bring the old mentalist setups back to life.

Im pretty sure you understood me but ill explain it for you:
Atm Knight auras are nearly never used higher than lvl 1 (at least on niflheim where i play mostly). Used are: GH, MP, MC. No imagine after this update most knights use theyre auras which also have a better area. In a big fight with many chars from all classes its constant -40% ranged dmg constant +80% ap and often a short period of high resist against physical dmg, maybe even magical but i dont think it will be used that often. MP stays the same as far as i know, only gh was nerfed but i think what i mentioned above is more than filling this gap. Oh and dont forget that all warriors and archers received a dmgnerf and locks will now cast much slower and have longer gcd. This all means a great dmg reduction, thats why less or less powerfull heals might be needed.

The problem with these healing spells is that it's too centric to level 50s. Also I expect to see a lot of focused fire more with the changes NGD made. Even now with the current heals you see targets die in less than 5 seconds in war. Heal Ally was good at buying some time here specially if you cannot dispel a CC'd target. On the Amun system, I wouldn't even bother to waste my mana for that.

Im sure most conjus will still use their mana for heal spells, youre overacting. About the focused fire:
1. Already mentioned new auras and less dmg
2. If many ppl focus on one target it should be dead, how else should a war end? Only by areaspamming?
3. There are a lot spells to protect important allies like conjus. For example Material wall which is atm mostly used at lvl 1.

I do. It's akin to casting nothing but South Cross over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.......

If you want to make heals less important you should be happy about the nerf and suggest other things instead. First complaining about it being less usefull and so less important then complaining about it being too important makes no sense in my eyes.

6 spells only? You have an easy life.

I was talking about supporting single players while grinding. Well i usually use bless weapon and the strength- oder dexbuff each 3 minutes too and in rare situations heal ally but usually regenerate and some mana is enough. I could use a lot more spells, material wall, more heals, more dispells... but its just not necessary.

So to actually stay alive you will now not only need a conjurer to DI you you will also need a knight with auras to reduce the damage to a level you can cope with with the new heal ally?
I dont see any progress in class balance from this point of view

I like the fact that knights are good helps for their allies now. See it from the other side: Knights are important now. Its as a knight would have complained after 1.0 before cause noone wants his auras anymore. Didnt really get what you meant with DI, i didnt talk about it anywhere?

I dont think taking a comfortable "i can read while doing it" levelling assistance situation as basis for balancing a class-defining spell.

This was only an answer to that:

From my tests so far, it was damn frustrating having to cast the same spell over and over again the same target just to keep him alive against a mob.

From my game experience heal ally is almost allways on cooldown. It only isnt when i am out of mana. The latter problem is not being adressed at all, reduced effect of the new spell did not come with a mana cost reduction, a cooldown reduction or a cast time removal. You will need - including gcd - 50s and 1200 mana to fully restore an ally now. Ironically it is cheaper to just let him die and revive him - unless he has more than 5k hp. And actually not much faster than having him rest.

It will need 50 seconds for a single conju who uses only heal ally. If this is how you calculate: atm it can take 50 seconds and 1,2k mana to fully restore a knight. You did not consider that it will also take a lot more time to get an enemy down with better armor points, better and more auras and a lower dmg in general. You remind me of the guys crying that their dmg is nerfed on amun without seeing that everyones dmg is nerfed.

[e30G]

Originally Posted by doppelapfel

Im pretty sure you understood me but ill explain it for you:
Atm Knight auras are nearly never used higher than lvl 1 (at least on niflheim where i play mostly). Used are: GH, MP, MC. No imagine after this update most knights use theyre auras which also have a better area. In a big fight with many chars from all classes its constant -40% ranged dmg constant +80% ap and often a short period of high resist against physical dmg, maybe even magical but i dont think it will be used that often. MP stays the same as far as i know, only gh was nerfed but i think what i mentioned above is more than filling this gap. Oh and dont forget that all warriors and archers received a dmgnerf and locks will now cast much slower and have longer gcd. This all means a great dmg reduction, thats why less or less powerfull heals might be needed.

It's not the overall power of the heals, but the way it scales down to low hp targets like people below 50 that concerns me. Damage isn't based on target HP. With the costs involved, it becomes less practical to support these people in war.

Originally Posted by doppelapfel

Im sure most conjus will still use their mana for heal spells, youre overacting. About the focused fire:
1. Already mentioned new auras and less dmg
2. If many ppl focus on one target it should be dead, how else should a war end? Only by areaspamming?
3. There are a lot spells to protect important allies like conjus. For example Material wall which is atm mostly used at lvl 1.

If a target is focused, they have very little time to react. Heal Ally was a way to counter focused fire for a very short period of time. What you are saying is that it is ok for focused fire to have no counter, similarly to how area spams have little counters today.

With the current mana shortages and consumption, Conjurers who actually play with skill will most likely be more picky when it comes to targets to heal. Sure the spell will be used more, but it will be on their personal favorites or famously skilled players. Why save someone you don't know when you can just focus on a single target and keep that target alive? Why care about that lowbie when it will be cheaper to simply revive him.... oh wait, I'll reserve my revive for an allied Conjurer or a well known effective player too!

Originally Posted by doppelapfel

If you want to make heals less important you should be happy about the nerf and suggest other things instead. First complaining about it being less usefull and so less important then complaining about it being too important makes no sense in my eyes.

My suggestion has been to make a base absolute heal per level then an additional bonus based on caster's int. That way we wouldn't rely on other people's stats. We already rely on them to survive and now we have to rely on their stats too to be effective?

[doppelapfel]

My suggestion has been to make a base absolute heal per level then an additional bonus based on caster's int. That way we wouldn't rely on other people's stats. We already rely on them to survive and now we have to rely on their stats too to be effective?

I would prefere an absolute heal and % of targets hp. Ive always wondered how a knight with an awesome number of hp should tank if he cant use them, he needs the same number of heals to stay alive as someone with low hp. Its like the manapool for mages, in a longer during fight some more aren worth anything, its just about regenerating it fast and constantly. The idea of % heal would solve this but i also agree with you that it would hurt low lvl players hard. So make it relying on targets hp and add a fixed number again like maybe 15% of targets hp on all lvls and 100/150/200/250/300 fixed.
This would mean for a mage with 3k hp 500 hp plus 300 is 800, a bit less than before the update but i think ppl could live with this cause of the lower dmg in generell.
A knight with 4,5k hp would get 750 plus 300 ist 1050, better for them as the version on the live servers and their higher basehp would give them a good advantage compared to those with less hp.
A lower Marks with lets say 2k hp would get 300 plus 300 is 600, less than before in the current version but still much more than on amun (400 there).
A low lvl conju with heal 2 could heal a low lvl player who has 1,5k hp with 250 plus 150 is 400, a bit less then in the current version.