Short vs long

[Tsar]

I started putting this in the balance thread but moved it here as it's not really about balance issues (which is what that section describes itself as), I just wanted to get peoples views on the short and long bow skill trees.

To me it seems the balance is always in favour of long bows. Certainly my experience is most archers are opting for medium speed long bows these days. I can't recall the last time I saw dual shot used.

Shouldn't the sacrifice of the extra range in long bows 35m +20% be balanced by the short bow user getting additional damage or defence? I'd prefer the latter, given short bows require fighting at closer quarters.

Compared like for like the long bow tree has range bonus, damage bonus (passive), dexerity bonus, and break apart (superior to the short bow equivalent which doesn't have the -const effect) and now shield piercing (which I've seen doing hits over 1,000). I know it will be nerfed but I bet it will still be doing in the 600-800 range when twinned with dex buff and cold blood.

Grounding arrow is low level, so any good archer can skill it up (as they will probably have points in the short bow tree for the dex passive) to level 1 or 2 (even after 1.10) and be able to switch bows in flight. It isn't the duration that makes the difference with GA but the immediacy of a spell which gives the user a seconds' advantage, maybe to gain the 5m needed for ambush.

Rapid shot? Yes, but combined with most short bows the damage output is still low to get a good buzz. Do short bows, pound for pound, do the same dps?

I'm a fan of using short bows (on hunter and marks) but is there enough in the skill tree to cause archers a dilemma when deciding which way to go?

[-Zed-]

Well both sb and lb are equally important. The tree comes in play depending on some factors -

1- you play with pet or w/o pet
2- got any dmg ring or amu
3- your playstyle

:no:
Can't say anything further as i havent tried new skill trees yet but what's ur playstyle ? :D

[_Enio_]

I agree. I was thinking about that too. I dislike that you get higher damage from lb then from shorts, it should be the other way around.

In the context of the latest changes i would probably switch the lb Dex buff with the sb dex passive, bring specialist lower in the lb tree and reduce the cooldown of Rep shot and Projectile rain. One could also consider bringing parabolic shot higher in the tree.

The lb and sb lvl 19 spells should both be reworked though. Projectile rain kind of same as Fire rain just much worse (not full dmg to all targets, higher cooldown) and repshot kind of similar to needle blast, just less damage but much higher Cooldown.

[MedicAlert]

If i might add,
Both short and long bow trees have their own pros and cons.
SB: Rapidshot, lightness, groundarrow, adaptability, tear apart.
LB: parabolic shot, manuver, shield piercing, specialist, break apart.
Now on contrast to these spells,
Most archers prefer LB category more because it's more safe to attack/strafe by keeping your range..
With the RNG soo f*ked up at the moment that any resists is a death sentence using SB because you need to get very close to the enemy.
Furthermore, Archers are supposed to be a "ranged" class not a semi mage ranged class.
Best,

[Robasiewicz]

i have lb tree skilled to get specialist(4) and then skill sb tree to get lightness (1) and rapid shot to maximize dps. please nothe that you'll get better dmg with specialist than with lightness (even with WM passive, as it does not affect dex from items/skills).

i often run with both avasive tactics and rapid shot, which resoults in ~90 hit chance, but this does not matter since evades dont even work ;) and this also makes duelist useless

[Tsar]

I think that skill trees apart I don't see a 25 range short bow giving more damage than a 35 range long bow, so why bother with a short bow?

Comparing medium speed bows, if nothing else, long bows have a 5-10m advantage over short bows, which means a short bow carrier sacrifices a least 2-3 hits (2-3 x 250-450) on an enemy due to loss of range, no?

Do the dmg stats of a short bow or the skill tree compensate for the difference? I don't think so.

[71175]

I think that skill trees apart I don't see a 25 range short bow giving more damage than a 35 range long bow, so why bother with a short bow?

Comparing medium speed bows, if nothing else, long bows have a 5-10m advantage over short bows, which means a short bow carrier sacrifices a least 2-3 hits (2-3 x 250-450) on an enemy due to loss of range, no?

Do the dmg stats of a short bow or the skill tree compensate for the difference? I don't think so.

2-3 hits with parabolic shot, less than 1 without, in case of hunter ofc. on marx, numbers extend to ~3 and exactly 1 respectively. Also, the irony of situation is that short bows do less damage even on same speeds and less range than respective lb.

[Robasiewicz]

I think that skill trees apart I don't see a 25 range short bow giving more damage than a 35 range long bow, so why bother with a short bow?

Comparing medium speed bows, if nothing else, long bows have a 5-10m advantage over short bows, which means a short bow carrier sacrifices a least 2-3 hits (2-3 x 250-450) on an enemy due to loss of range, no?

Do the dmg stats of a short bow or the skill tree compensate for the difference? I don't think so.

truth be told i'll be dropping sb tree once i get a decent lb.
the only reason to use sb is to get an additional hit on cold blood thanks to rapid shot. that's about it

[Dumberest]

ive always wondered why LB's hit harder than SB's,its been this way for too long.

more risk taken should mean more damage dealt.getting close has no incentive at all.

[MDpro]

Makes perfect sense the way it is right now.

LB with slow AS, sacrifice AS for more damage.

LB with medium AS, medium damage and can get good range. Better balance.

Short bow with Medium AS, More base damage than LB with medium AS, less range.

Short bow with fast AS, less base damage, but can get more shots off in less time, which if you got a good short bow, can be pretty damn good.

One thing I love about this game is that it gives you plenty of options to do what you think works for you. There is nothing that says you HAVE to use this spell, or use this weapon... You got options. It's a good thing. It allows you to be creative. :thumb:


truth be told i'll be dropping sb tree once i get a decent lb.
the only reason to use sb is to get an additional hit on cold blood thanks to rapid shot. that's about it
I used ONLY long bows until I was level 57... I knew I was missing something all that time, so now I love the option of a short bow. I only skill SB colum to grounding arrow, so it's not like I use SB's a ton, mostly for fort doors and knocked down enemies. But they are still very useful for certain things. Plus, I LOVE the fast attack speed with rapid shot.

[Tsar]

Here's a good example of long bows (against my conjo in grinder set up).

Marksman, 35m medium bow, casts parabolic shot then proceeds to hit crit 7, normal 6, crit 401, normal 486, [energy barrier 5], crit 7, normal 6, crit 459, crit 674, normal 491, ethereal 5.

I can neither get in range or out of it. That encounter last 10 seconds max so no chance of getting near a tree.

Clearly this is dmg class vs muppet, but if you can do this with a long bow at 30-40m why even consider a short bow?

And also are people really running around with close to 50% crit hit rate?

[Robasiewicz]

And also are people really running around with close to 50% crit hit rate?

it's all in the RNG. but with new adaptability i'm able to buff my crit chance to 67%. bet i could get more if i cared enough

[NaturalBornKiller]

Here's a good example of long bows (against my conjo in grinder set up).

Marksman, 35m medium bow, casts parabolic shot then proceeds to hit crit 7, normal 6, crit 401, normal 486, [energy barrier 5], crit 7, normal 6, crit 459, crit 674, normal 491, ethereal 5.

I can neither get in range or out of it. That encounter last 10 seconds max so no chance of getting near a tree.

Clearly this is dmg class vs muppet, but if you can do this with a long bow at 30-40m why even consider a short bow?

And also are people really running around with close to 50% crit hit rate?


But you can have the 50% crit hit just with the sb

[Tsar]

Sorry wasn't linking crit rate to bow type, it was an additional observation in this instance. Of course with a short bow you can get a 200% crit buff. However, to use it you would have to be in range of your opponent because you are using a short bow and so are likely to be taking substantially more damage than if you are 40m away with a long bow...no?

[_Enio_]

One thing I love about this game is that it gives you plenty of options to do what you think works for you. There is nothing that says you HAVE to use this spell, or use this weapon... You got options. It's a good thing. It allows you to be creative. :thumb:


The problem i see is that sb is not an option right now. The risk going under r30 is not worth the reward currently when comparing to lb.

A good solution imho would be to increase the damage for sb and reduce it for LB. (whilst maybe also finding a solution vs hunters dist shot you out of camo to buff up and kill in one ambush with cb, as in this situation sb work well due to high as and cb supplying the damage).

[Tsar]

It's a tricky one.

I prefer to play as a disruptive hunter - camo and head into the crowd, cause a distraction, break the conjos rythmn, thrown in a cc spell and hope a conjo has my back.

In the old days you could get in and get out alive (bring back the old escapist speed buff). These days a rvr hunter just ends up with a long bow spamming ensnaring and shield piercing with the marksmen.

I'd throw in a defensive spell (not passive) for shortbows and make the tree a bit more crowd control focussed. Although with the amount of cc resists (xim gear and spells) and two dispells per 50+ mage, CC spells are not as effective anymore. Realm battles are often cc, dispell, cc, dispell over and over until one side runs out of dispells and the warriors clean up.

Maybe passive's should largely be in the class specific trees, as we've seen with the damage resist passives in warriors being moved in favour of knights....

[71175]

Sorry wasn't linking crit rate to bow type, it was an additional observation in this instance. Of course with a short bow you can get a 200% crit buff. However, to use it you would have to be in range of your opponent because you are using a short bow and so are likely to be taking substantially more damage than if you are 40m away with a long bow...no?

point shot gives like static 25% crit chance at lvl5 (for 20 seconds or so). My marx for example gets almost 50% crit chance with it and my current gear But yeah, the fact lbs are so much better than sbs in almost all cases except rapid-shot cold blood interaction is annoying.

[Dumberest]

Makes perfect sense the way it is right now.t.

my point was,the damage dealt from outside of spell casters range should be less.since the max range mages have is 30m for a spell a bow that hits from 35m should be less thats all.bows that hit from inside thier range should hit more.

[71175]

Makes perfect sense the way it is right now.

LB with slow AS, sacrifice AS for more damage.

LB with medium AS, medium damage and can get good range. Better balance.

Short bow with Medium AS, More base damage than LB with medium AS, less range.

Short bow with fast AS, less base damage, but can get more shots off in less time, which if you got a good short bow, can be pretty damn good.

One thing I love about this game is that it gives you plenty of options to do what you think works for you. There is nothing that says you HAVE to use this spell, or use this weapon... You got options. It's a good thing. It allows you to be creative. :thumb:



I used ONLY long bows until I was level 57... I knew I was missing something all that time, so now I love the option of a short bow. I only skill SB colum to grounding arrow, so it's not like I use SB's a ton, mostly for fort doors and knocked down enemies. But they are still very useful for certain things. Plus, I LOVE the fast attack speed with rapid shot.

Except that well, magna sb has less base damage than ancient lb that is medium 35. Yes, magna sb has rapid shot and insane damage bonus (after you add up all the bonuses it has), but base damage is still less. Hell, if you take damage/attack time ratio, long bows win pretty darn hard until ultra-op items considering that pretty much static part of their damage gets removed in both cases.