Help please- Can anyone assist with weapon speed ratios?

[Seraphim19]

Hello all,
Forgive me if this question appears to be a bit mundane, but it highly affects my damage output strategy...

Does anyone know for certain the timing ratios for the differences in weapon speeds? In otherwords, how must faster does a FAST attack than a MEDIUM? Does this rate consist with the difference between MEDIUM and SLOW? For example, perhaps the FAST attacks 50% faster than a MEDIUM, and so the ratio would be 1:1.5... Does anyone know this number? If the speed ratios are 1:1.5 (from a speed to the next fastest speed) is really 50%, then damage per second, a medium bow could potentially be more powerful than a slow...

If anyone would be generous enough to share their knowledge on this, I would be much obliged :sifflote: :thumb_up:

[Miraculix]

I would assume it is the same as the damage ratio, to even things out. Otherwise it would just render some weapon classes useless.

[ncvr]

Very Fast is 25% faster than fast, I think fast is 25% faster than medium, medium 25% faster than slow and slow 25% faster than very slow. That's just an estimate though.

[amade]

Using short spell cooldowns as a measuring stick I roughly worked out that fast is around 1.5-2 sec, med is 2.5, slow is 3.5. It seems like there's only one second difference between each level of speed.

[Miraculix]

Yes, slow must be 3.5 by my calculations too, I used the same method. Shield piercing has a 7 second cooldown, every second shot with a slow longbow can be piggybacked by shield piercing exactly when cooldown is over.

[superdaveninja]

Wow, Amade, this information is most prudent :) Shout out to necro and mirac for your input as well.

So, according to Amade's data, the ratio of speed between medium and slow is 2.5 seconds to 3.5 seconds, or just 2.5:3.5. So, 2.5: 3.5 = 5:7 = 1: 7/5 = 1:1 2/5, or 1:1.4, which can also be read at 40%. In plain terms, the medium speed is 40% faster than the slow weapon.

So when buying a weapon, one must examine the damage/ second capabilities of each weapon, as the slow weapon will be inflated due to its slower speed, but the medium speed, slightly lower damage per hit but at a faster rate, might in fact have a greater damage per second ratio. So heres where the speed ratio comes in to play. Because the ratio we've found is 1:1.4, we divide the medium weapon's damage by 1 to find the damage/ second, but for the slow weapon, we must divide by 1.4. Then with those figures can we determine if the slow weapon is worth its damage or if medium speed is actually a better deal.

Another, perhaps more simple way we can determine this is simply by taking the medium speed's damage, and applying a 40% bonus to it, and seeing how those figures compare to the slow weapon. For example, say you have a 26-32 med speed. We apply the 40% (speed ratio difference): 26 + 40% (26) = 26 + 10.4 = 36.4 and 32 + 40% (32) = 32 + 12.8 = 44.8.
Therefore, in order for a slow weapon to as good or better than a medium weapon, it would have to do approx 36.4 - 44.8, which usually does not occur, and so the medium weapon is the better deal.

In conclusion, the medium speed usually does more damage than the slow weapon.

[Miraculix]

dang :/

I sure hope that's not the case... I've been using slow weapons all the time :p

[superdaveninja]

well, there may be other reasons for using a slow weapon that isnt covered in this theorem. one may be, you are a hunter and every hit counts, so you wanna have a slow bow that packs a punch. you may need a fast weapon to whip out spell combos ASAP. the biggest reason i would advocate using a slow weapon would be with the use of particular skills, like southern cross and lethal strike, where you get 100% weapon attack etc, and as such, you get the greatest amount of damage out of those skills using the slowest weapon possible, for even though the slower weapons have less damage per second, they dish out the greatest amount of juice in one hit. the only reason why we started this thread was to address the damage per second efficiencies of the weapons vs speed. so no worries mirac :D you were probably doing one of these :D :guitar:

[ncvr]

well, there may be other reasons for using a slow weapon that isnt covered in this theorem. one may be, you are a hunter and every hit counts, so you wanna have a slow bow that packs a punch. you may need a fast weapon to whip out spell combos ASAP. the biggest reason i would advocate using a slow weapon would be with the use of particular skills, like southern cross and lethal strike, where you get 100% weapon attack etc, and as such, you get the greatest amount of damage out of those skills using the slowest weapon possible, for even though the slower weapons have less damage per second, they dish out the greatest amount of juice in one hit. the only reason why we started this thread was to address the damage per second efficiencies of the weapons vs speed. so no worries mirac :D you were probably doing one of these :D :guitar:
He is a marksman.

I use fast speed shortbows on my marks :)

Shortbows are fun.

[Valorius]

Any spell with +100% weapon damage favors a slower speed/heavier hitting weapon. +100% weapon dmg is a lot more with a slow bow than it is with a medium bow, and a medium bow delivers a lot more +100% dmg than a fast one does.

+100% bow dmg for my 30/slow xym bow is almost 400 dmg
+100% bow dmg for my 25/med bow is approx 330 dmg
+100% bow dmg for my 25/med SB is approx 280
+100% bow dmg for my 25/fast SB is approx 180

These are rough estimates based on gameplay, but all of them "are close enough for government work."

The biggest difference in weapon speed manifests itself in spellcast time. The actual natural non-spell casting attack time between a fast, med, or slow bow is pretty negligible...but when casting spells the faster weapons have a much greater ROF. My elven SB casts defensive buffs so fast it's almost "instantaneous."

[amade]

Another thing that should also be taken into consideration is how you move about and take shots. If you're the type that moves around a lot to take advantage of terrain and positioning having a fast speed bow isn't much of an advantage because you stop less frequently to take shots. Very often my rate of fire with a slow longbow is slightly more than 3.5 seconds due to this behaviour so a fast/medium bow is wasted on me. If you're the sort who counts each step subconsciously to stop everytime the next shooting/casting window is up a fast longbow would suit you well. The downside with this is you have to stop more often and restrict your maneuverability.

[amade]

So when buying a weapon, one must examine the damage/ second capabilities of each weapon, as the slow weapon will be inflated due to its slower speed, but the medium speed, slightly lower damage per hit but at a faster rate, might in fact have a greater damage per second ratio. So heres where the speed ratio comes in to play. Because the ratio we've found is 1:1.4, we divide the medium weapon's damage by 1 to find the damage/ second, but for the slow weapon, we must divide by 1.4. Then with those figures can we determine if the slow weapon is worth its damage or if medium speed is actually a better deal.

Another, perhaps more simple way we can determine this is simply by taking the medium speed's damage, and applying a 40% bonus to it, and seeing how those figures compare to the slow weapon. For example, say you have a 26-32 med speed. We apply the 40% (speed ratio difference): 26 + 40% (26) = 26 + 10.4 = 36.4 and 32 + 40% (32) = 32 + 12.8 = 44.8.
Therefore, in order for a slow weapon to as good or better than a medium weapon, it would have to do approx 36.4 - 44.8, which usually does not occur, and so the medium weapon is the better deal.

In conclusion, the medium speed usually does more damage than the slow weapon.

Sorry for the double post.

I should reiterate that my figures are "rough", in which the only one I'm 99% sure of is that the slow longbow's rate is 3.5sec. Also, one can't compare bows by it's damage/sec only because of other factors, such as a tradeoff between range and damage. There are slow longbows with range 25 which are more powerful than a range 30 longbow of the same speed. Then there are several types of longbows with same speed and range but apparently differing accuracy/power. I wish I knew what each type of longbow is supposedly good or bad at (types such as impale, execution, projection, elven, etc) instead of just range and speed.

[Barandan]

I'm very new to this game, but had the same questions about speed and damage. Let me share some of my raw data on the subject.

These numbers are for a lvl 29 barbarian
using a 2 handed wakisashi sword for the medium speed weapon
and a 2 handed barbed ax for the slow weapon

For weapon speed calcs: I picked various mobs and battled each 5 or 6 times with each weapon and basically counted swings, mine versus thiers (a hit or a miss didn't matter, just the number of swings). I figured that their swing rate would be constant (I hope that is correct)

I saw something very interesting.
Against the 2 "normal" blue mobs (adult gypho and savage troll) my swing rate was the same as theirs with both weapons. An average of 5 swings for me and 5 for the adult gryph using the medium speed weapon. And an average of 4 swings for me and 4 for the adult grypho using the slow speed weapon. Against the savage troll it averaged 6 swings for me and 6 for the mob with the medium speed weapon and 4 swings for me and 4 for the mob with the slow weapon.

Seeing as the slow speed weapon averaged about 140% of the damage of the medium speed weapon (which is slightly better than the 133% the stats say it should have been) the slow speed weapon was far superior.

However against the "hard" orange mobs (great grizzly bear and adult werewolf) things were a little more even, but still favored the slow weapon.
Against the bear it average 14.5 swings for me and 11.5 for the mob with the medium speed weapon and 8 for me and 8 for the mob with the slow weapon. The slow weapon had only 79% of the speed of the medium weapon, but hit for an average of 140% of the damage of the medium speed weapon, giving the slow speed weapon a 10% damage per time advantage.

Against the werewolf I averaged 20 swings to the mobs 20 swings with the medium speed weapon and 13.5 swings to the mobs 16 swings with the slow speed weapon. The slow weapon had only 84% of the speed of the medium weapon, but was hitting for an average of 143% of the damage of the medium speed weapon, giving it a 20% damage per time advantage.


Take the data how you will, and as far as I know none of this will hold up in PvP, but I will need to meet someone in the arena, who is willing, to test it out.

[amade]

I'm very new to this game, but had the same questions about speed and damage. Let me share some of my raw data on the subject.

These numbers are for a lvl 29 barbarian
using a 2 handed wakisashi sword for the medium speed weapon
and a 2 handed barbed ax for the slow weapon

For weapon speed calcs: I picked various mobs and battled each 5 or 6 times with each weapon and basically counted swings, mine versus thiers (a hit or a miss didn't matter, just the number of swings). I figured that their swing rate would be constant (I hope that is correct)

I saw something very interesting.
Against the 2 "normal" blue mobs (adult gypho and savage troll) my swing rate was the same as theirs with both weapons. An average of 5 swings for me and 5 for the adult gryph using the medium speed weapon. And an average of 4 swings for me and 4 for the adult grypho using the slow speed weapon. Against the savage troll it averaged 6 swings for me and 6 for the mob with the medium speed weapon and 4 swings for me and 4 for the mob with the slow weapon.

Seeing as the slow speed weapon averaged about 140% of the damage of the medium speed weapon (which is slightly better than the 133% the stats say it should have been) the slow speed weapon was far superior.

However against the "hard" orange mobs (great grizzly bear and adult werewolf) things were a little more even, but still favored the slow weapon.
Against the bear it average 14.5 swings for me and 11.5 for the mob with the medium speed weapon and 8 for me and 8 for the mob with the slow weapon. The slow weapon had only 79% of the speed of the medium weapon, but hit for an average of 140% of the damage of the medium speed weapon, giving the slow speed weapon a 10% damage per time advantage.

Against the werewolf I averaged 20 swings to the mobs 20 swings with the medium speed weapon and 13.5 swings to the mobs 16 swings with the slow speed weapon. The slow weapon had only 84% of the speed of the medium weapon, but was hitting for an average of 143% of the damage of the medium speed weapon, giving it a 20% damage per time advantage.


Take the data how you will, and as far as I know none of this will hold up in PvP, but I will need to meet someone in the arena, who is willing, to test it out.

Different mobs have different attack speeds (as well as damage types), their difficulty do not affect their attack speed. However, the amount of damage you inflict is more or less affected by their difficulty (and/or your character attributes against them). You may notice that some mobs like ferrets, igneos and certain other "agile" creatures hit fast but for less damage. Trolls and other mobs that are slow and clumsy hit slower for more damage. If you were to hit a mob that is ranked hard or higher with any weapon you'll see that you inflict very little damage, but as you lvl up you'll notice that you'll hit them harder even though you're still using the same weapon.

[Barandan]

Different mobs have different attack speeds (as well as damage types), their difficulty do not affect their attack speed. However, the amount of damage you inflict is more or less affected by their difficulty (and/or your character attributes against them). You may notice that some mobs like ferrets, igneos and certain other "agile" creatures hit fast but for less damage. Trolls and other mobs that are slow and clumsy hit slower for more damage. If you were to hit a mob that is ranked hard or higher with any weapon you'll see that you inflict very little damage, but as you lvl up you'll notice that you'll hit them harder even though you're still using the same weapon.

:thumb_up:

Yeah, I've figured most of that out already :biggrin:
But that shouldn't effect the results of the tests as long as each individual in a mob type is the same. Which seemed to be so, since when I fought a mob 5 or 6 times with the same weapon, the results were pretty close.
I was just surprised to see that with "normal" mobs the medium and slow weapons seemed to strike at the same speed, while with the "hard" mobs the medium speed weapon seemed to strike 20-25% faster than the slow speed weapon. And although the increased speed certainly helped, it still did not make up for the 40% more damage that the slow speed weapon could deal out.

[amade]

I was just surprised to see that with "normal" mobs the medium and slow weapons seemed to strike at the same speed, while with the "hard" mobs the medium speed weapon seemed to strike 20-25% faster than the slow speed weapon.

That shouldn't be the case, your own weapon speed shouldn't change at all regardless of enemy/mob difficulty. Only certain buffs/debuffs may affect your weapon speed. It may be you're experiencing some unnoticeable lag while fighting mobs, this is evident during laggier times when you may strike 2-3 times in a row before the mob hits you back a few times in a row or vice versa.

[Barandan]

That shouldn't be the case, your own weapon speed shouldn't change at all regardless of enemy/mob difficulty. Only certain buffs/debuffs may affect your weapon speed. It may be you're experiencing some unnoticeable lag while fighting mobs, this is evident during laggier times when you may strike 2-3 times in a row before the mob hits you back a few times in a row or vice versa.


I agree that it shouldn't be the case, but I don't really think I was lagging. I was attacking "hard" and "normal" mobs at random. And every time against "hard" mobs there was a speed difference between the two weapons, as expected. (But the difference I saw was not as high as some in this thread thought they were seeing. and not a big enough difference to over come the damage difference between the two weapons when calculating damage per time)

And the surprise was that, every time I attacked a "normal" mob I saw no difference in the speeds of the medium and slow weapons. But that could have been because killing in 4 hits was just fast enough to mask the difference.



I always use medium or fast during combat. On chases or vs. fort doors I might use a slow for those critical hits.
But IMO slow just causes spell casting to drag way too much to be used all of the time.

Unfortuanately I haven't found a fast 2 handed weapon for my barbarian :p or I'd probably use one too.
And as I've said, the apparent "damage per time" advantage that I saw for the slow weapon may not come into play or work the same way in PvP.

[Stefanwulf]

One thing that struck me reading this thread over is that damage resistance might play a huge factor here. If the combat algorithm is such that resistance/armor on the part of the target is applied against every attack (which is a really common way of doing these things), then a fast weapon may be multiplying the points of damage resisted by the same factor as the points of damage done.

In essence, one possible video game formula of finding damage on an attack would ATTACK - ARMOR, if you can attack X times per round, then it's suddenly X(ATTACK-ARMOR), which means the best speed to use is going to vary considerably depending on the extent to which you overpower their armor. If you're doing 55 damage and they have 5 armor, then each extra attack per second is going to net you 50 more points of damage. If you do 55 damage and they have 40 armor, then you're far better off switching to the bow that does 1.5 times the damage at the same rate rather than the one that attacks 1.5 times as often.

1*(82-40) = 42 dps
vs
1.5*(55-40) = 22.5 dps

I'm not sure if Regnum is using this basic attack-armor calculation anywhere (obviously there's other factors and some randomness even if they are), but it just struck me as an aspect which makes this more interesting and less certain, particularly in pvp.