View Full Version : Damage Per Second (DPS)
Conzar
12-19-2008, 08:45 PM
When choosing a weapon (slow, med, fast) plus any single or combination of slash/blunt/peirce plus additional dmg points: How do you choose which is best?
In other MMOs they have a concept of DPS or Damage Per Second. This helps inform the player how strong a particular item is.
How does Regnum Online Communicate this concept?
Mikan
12-19-2008, 09:18 PM
It doesn't, but it is a feature that I would like to see added to the game. Right now checking damage requires attacking mobs and performing tests, which shouldn't be required.
So, like I said, I would like to see this implemented.
Regards,
Conzar
12-19-2008, 10:21 PM
Which also means that you have to buy the item to find out. This means you would have to pay about 3X the amount if you are trying to deceide between fast/med/slow weapon.
Miriya_PS
12-19-2008, 10:52 PM
Actually the "concept" is there. Slower weapons do more damage, they have some kind of bonus. I can not explain how it works, but I am SURE it is there.
For example I have 3 bows that should do the same damage (if you add all the damage it says in the description) but since they have different speeds they do different damage.
Vroek
12-19-2008, 11:30 PM
Im pretty sure the slower the weapon the better DPS you will have by default, but you are you mistaken if you think bigger is better just because of this.
Armor debuffs, Buffs like magnifications and item bonuses that always benefit faster weapons most.
While the basic game mechanics only benefit slower weapons
fixed armour values and higher damage contribution from main attribute depending on weapon speed.
In RO you pick weapon(s) considering play style rather than damage per second, its not a PVE game!
Conzar
12-20-2008, 12:19 AM
Im pretty sure the slower the weapon the better DPS you will have by default, but you are you mistaken if you think bigger is better just because of this.!
I think your the one that is mistaken. DPS by definition informs the player what the damage a weapon does per second. So the weapon with the best DPS will be the best.
Znurre
12-20-2008, 12:22 AM
I think your the one that is mistaken. DPS by definition informs the player what the damage a weapon does per second. So the weapon with the best DPS will be the best.No, not always :p
Because if a fast weapon will do 100 dps, and a very slow weapon will do 75 dps - the very slow weapon will do more damage overtime, because low damages are lowered extremely much by protection.
Conzar
12-20-2008, 06:07 AM
No, not always :p
Because if a fast weapon will do 100 dps, and a very slow weapon will do 75 dps - the very slow weapon will do more damage overtime, because low damages are lowered extremely much by protection.
Huh?
Lets do the math
fast weapon that does 100 dps.
Attack for 60 seconds and you get 6000 damage points
slow weapon that does 75 dps
Attack for 60 seconds and you get 4875 damage points
Obviously the fast weapon is best because it does 1125 damage points more then the slow weapon in 60 seconds.
Vroek
12-20-2008, 09:43 AM
Huh?
Lets do the math
fast weapon that does 100 dps.
Attack for 60 seconds and you get 6000 damage points
slow weapon that does 75 dps
Attack for 60 seconds and you get 4875 damage points
Obviously the fast weapon is best because it does 1125 damage points more then the slow weapon in 60 seconds.
Maybe a fast weapond do 33 hits in 60s, a slow may only do 18 hits in 60s.
Say every hit is reduced with 100 dmg becuase of armour,
thats -3300 dmg for fast weapon and -1800 dmg for the slow weapon.
El_Naso
12-20-2008, 11:51 AM
Every hit you make gets reduced in some way by your enemy's armor (search for the formula if you really want to have it, it's somewhere in the forums). The higher the damage, the lower the reduction will be proportionaly to the reduction you would get with a lower damage output. A fast weapon will get reduced more since it hits more times while a slow weapon will do more damage and get past armor easier.
BUT, the faster the weapon the higher the dps aganist weak targets, debuffed or armorless, and the slower, the better aganist highly protected targets. Slow weapons will benefit the most from +X% dmg bonus and fast benefits more from extra fixed damage like mages magnifications, warrior basic damage buffs, head of the pack, rings and weapons with enchanced damage, and everything that adds a fixed amount of damage to your dps.
The slow weapon may be the best for most situations, but a medium one will allow more control during a fight. Most people use several weapons, but that's mainly for pvp. The most recomended weapon choice for pve are slow spears for their damage and their tiny but usable range, but that also depends on wether you are a knight or a barb. Barbs take slow weapons and anhilate mobs in a few hits while knights use medium weapons and rely on a high protection, knockdowns and debuffs to make mobs weaker.
Hope it's enough info :P
Conzar
12-20-2008, 03:12 PM
The higher the damage, the lower the reduction will be proportionaly to the reduction you would get with a lower damage output. A fast weapon will get reduced more since it hits more times while a slow weapon will do more damage and get past armor easier.
That doesn't make sense at all. All weapons regardless of their dmg should be reduced the same when attacking a target. Think of it as a percentage .... so a particular target has a 20% reduction in the weapon's dmg it deals.
If this is the case, then every strike will be reduced the same regardless if its slow or fast. It doesn't matter that the faster weapon hits more times b/c thats factored into the DPS already.
This is why DPS in other games like GuildWars are used to determine the dmg output of a weapon.
DPS provides a clear understanding of how much dmg will be dealt.
The current system does not provide a clear understanding and something needs to be done about it.
Znurre
12-20-2008, 03:28 PM
That doesn't make sense at all. All weapons regardless of their dmg should be reduced the same when attacking a target. Think of it as a percentage .... so a particular target has a 20% reduction in the weapon's dmg it deals.
If this is the case, then every strike will be reduced the same regardless if its slow or fast. It doesn't matter that the faster weapon hits more times b/c thats factored into the DPS already.
This is why DPS in other games like GuildWars are used to determine the dmg output of a weapon.
DPS provides a clear understanding of how much dmg will be dealt.
The current system does not provide a clear understanding and something needs to be done about it.Let's say it like this.
Fast weapon - let's pretend it will do 100 dps, over 4 seconds
Very Slow weapon - let's pretend it will do 80dps, over 4 seconds
Second 1
Fast weapon - 100 damage, 50% reduced by armor = 40 damage.
Very Slow weapon - 320 damage, 50% reduce by armor = 160 damage.
Second 2
Fast weapon - 100 damage, 50% reduced by armor = 40 damage.
Very Slow weapon - no damage, still recharging
Second 3
Fast weapon - 100 damage, 50% reduced by armor = 40 damage.
Very Slow weapon - no damage, still recharging
Second 4
Fast weapon - 100 damage, 50% reduced by armor = 40 damage.
Very Slow weapon - no damage, still recharging
The result?
Over 4 seconds the both weapons will do as much damage even while the dps is lower on the Very Slow weapon.
-Edge-
12-20-2008, 03:56 PM
Your formula works Znurre, but thats not what the poster means.
That formula is old and dosen't even work with most of these new "super" boss drop weapons that break it. I saw a medium speed spear with the same stats as a very slow hammer
And I showed really well in a video I made here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1hZ3i3PPuQ&feature=channel_page) that there are tons of different ways to break this cap.
The forumla is suppossed to work in the way you said, but changes have been made to weapons and skills and the formula itself has been left untouched to the point where you can't see for sure what kind of damage output you will get.
But you calculated normal perfect hits, hits usually range between a 10-50 difference, so its random, and what makes it more random is when people use skills,
if someone used Charge simultaniously for instance with a Very Slow and Medium speed weapon, the Medium speed weapon will turn out with more damage.
El_Naso
12-21-2008, 12:18 AM
All weapons regardless of their dmg should be reduced the same when attacking a target.
Nope. It doesen't work with percentages.
They balance is in this manner:
Say an armor has a defence rating of 100.
These are its attributes:
Slash-V.Good = 130
Piercing-Bad = 85
Blunt-Normal = 100
Fire-Good = 115
Ice-Normal = 100
Lightning-V.Bad = 70
Average defence=100
However, if you're being attacked by someone with a slashing attack, the damage is calculated using only the piercing stats. So in this case, his attack power - 130 = Damage done to you. If a warlock casted lightning on you instead it will be Mage's attack -70 = damage dealt [...]
(Edited it slightly for best readability)
Another thing I found somewhere while looking for this, your total armor protection is an average of all the parts rather than a sum, as incorrectly shown in the character sheet. So if you are wearing 5 parts of 200 armor the total will be 200 and not 1000. To what exent this may be true is something I cannot be certain of, as I'm fairly new to the formula myself. I do know, however, that it works somewhat like this and not with percentages, at all.
Conzar
12-21-2008, 06:05 AM
Where are you getting these numbers from?
What does it mean to be good, bad, etc?
What does the armour rating mean? What does the weapon damage mean?
How in the world can one determine whats the strongest armour or the strongest weapon?
Why are there different attacks and different defenses? For instance, why is there any difference in a "slash" then a "peirce"? Why not make the slash attack less damage then the peirce instead of this crazy break down in armour.
I think in general the combat system is confusing.
Especially since the player has no way of knowing what attacks are being made on the player. What good is it to know that your armour is good against slash but not peirce.
Its not evident in the mobs which attack is being made.
My point is, if your going to have a complex system, then you should provide the player with the tools necessary to utilize this complex system. Right now its fairly nebulous.
Since the tools aren't there, then why not just make the system less complex. Its easier to code too. The players understand what to expect and everyone is happy.
El_Naso
12-21-2008, 05:52 PM
What does it mean to be good, bad, etc?
It means that your armor has a bonus rating aganis a particular type of damage. Very good gives an extra 30%, good 15%, normal 0%, bad -15% and very bad -30%, So if the armor piece has 200 points of armor and it's very good aganist lightning but very bad aganist piercing you need to calculate 140 armor points aganist a piercing attack and 160 aganist lightning. All clases have a weakness in each of their lvl 50 sets, even a good mix won't completely cover all the holes without generating new ones. In time you will have a general knowledge of each of these weakneses.
Its not evident in the mobs which attack is being made.
Ok, I'll agree with you on that. Partially.
It's not that hard to try and deduce the type of damage thet a particular mob does. Pumas, goblins and alike will likely do slashing damage, same with all mobs that apear to have a knife or sword or attack with claws, cyclops/toltars/thralls, golems and everything that attacks with clubs or tacles (generally slow mobs) will do blunt damage, mobs with spears/tridents (aquantis) or those that attack by biting do most surely piercing damage.
In some cases (and here's where i do agree with you) it's confusing, like in the case of zombies that apear to attack with the fist and therfore, do blunt damage, while I'm fairly sure they do slashing, same happens with ghosts. I belive they all do lightning damage but I may very well be wrong, since I never grinded extensively with them. If you are not sure what type of dmg a particular mob does, ask someone (the forum would be a good idea) or test it yourself.
My point is, if your going to have a complex system, then you should provide the player with the tools necessary to utilize this complex system. Right now its fairly nebulous.
Agree, but keep in mind that, at least until you've gained enough levels, resistances to a particular type of damage don't make too much of a difference to mean anything more than a detail, especially if we are talking about pve, wich is the simpliest aspect of the game. You can pretty much solo your entire way up to 50 whatever class you picked with no problems. Don't worry all that much.
Conzar
12-21-2008, 07:22 PM
You can solo until you reach lvl 30. Then you start needing help to complete new quests.
Or you can just grind until you get about 5 levels above the new quests before completing the old quests (that are 5 lvl's below you). But grinding, PVP, PVE, and the like are off the thread topic.
I still maintain that DPS is needed.
Froste
12-21-2008, 07:33 PM
I think it's only needed for those people who come from wow or guildwars, and refuse to learn a new system ;p
Conzar
12-21-2008, 10:24 PM
I'm willing to learn a new system. Please provide me with the tools and resources to do so.
Please no speculation either!
Vroek
12-22-2008, 12:01 AM
Ok im willing to provide you with a close enough DPS calculation unbuffed and exclusive opponents amour reduction.
1. take the displayed weapon damage.
2. add your main attribute (dex, int or str) -20 * bonus determined by class and weapon speed.
bonus for warlock, barbarian and marksman:
1.5 for fast
2.0 for medium
2.5 for slow
3.0 for very slow
bonus for conjurer, knight and hunter:
1.125 for fast
1.500 for medium
1.875 for slow
3. Either clock your own weapon speed or use the estimated numbers below.
take the sum of 1 & 2* divide with weapon speed.
weapon speed:
1.8 fast
2.4 medium
3.1 slow
3.7 very slow
(my weapon speed unbuffed tested with warlock, barbarian and hunter)
*if you like you can add item bonuses, magnification and other damage increasing buffs.
Kianoni
12-29-2008, 02:06 PM
seems that most of you do not understand what DPS stands for. that is damage per second.
this would be really useful information
- and it would actually tell if one weapon is better or the other for bashing at a fort door.
DPS = damage per second
amount of damage dealt per second - and this is calculated over time and has nothing to do with how many hits you make in 4 seconds.
example (imaginary, does not reflect to RO):
medium speed, damage 50, 40 hits in 1 minute
40 hits * 50 damage / 60 seconds = 33.3333333 DPS
slow speed, damage 100, 15 hits in 1 minute
15*100 / 60 = 25 DPS
in RO, all data should be available (for the developers) and if you want more accurate results just count the number of hits over a longer period of time.
Angelwinged_Devil
12-29-2008, 07:59 PM
to answer your question the faster the better, fort doors have no armor
Kianoni
12-29-2008, 08:21 PM
to answer your question the faster the better, fort doors have no armor
the question is does a faster weapon do more damage over time than a slower weapon. you can not know this only by looking at weapon speed - but you can find out dps by hittin a fort door with your weapon as doors have no armor.
thx for the suggestion AW.
Conzar
12-29-2008, 08:24 PM
to answer your question the faster the better, fort doors have no armor
Huh? So you are saying a fast weapon with slash dmg of 10 is better then a slow weapon with blunt dmg of 350?
Huh? So you are saying a fast weapon with slash dmg of 10 is better then a slow weapon with blunt dmg of 350?
He is saying that this is the case against fort doors and if the two weapons are of equal level and quality.
SmUrV
01-01-2009, 05:20 AM
For one, this isn't WoW...
And two, a weapon in this game is chosen as to the users playing style. The different weapons for a warrior (blunt, piercing, slashing) offer completely different ways of killing people and most of the time it involves some tactics.
As of the new patch it would appear spears(piercing) are dealing the most dmg, however, swords(slashing) offer the most dmg adding spells. Blunts would by far be the most tactical of the three types offering very few dmg adding spells and many more debuffs.
Simply put, put on a spear with a barbarian buff up to maximum amount of dmg you possibly can to achieve the maximum DPS and then get mind squashed. All those buffs and all that DPS completely gone, you are now reliant on the base weapon. Your DPS just got defeated by strategy.
Kianoni
01-02-2009, 11:45 AM
hey smurv and everyone else. you just don't get it?
this thread is about dps for a weapon..
like a stat you see in your inventory that is not only the base damage but DPS taking into account damage and weapon speed. that's it, no buffs, no debuffs just base damage that a weapon can do over time.
Vroek
01-02-2009, 02:01 PM
Kia
It wouldnt be relevant information when you buy a weapon,
you still have to be quite experienced with RO to determine which is best and for what situation.
'base' DPS is irrelevant or misleading since armor, items, buffs and debuffs all effect different weapon speed differently. (No you cant ignore this, even on fort doors items and magnifications count)
If you display a value it has to be important and DPS would be if it was accurate while comparing weapons, but its not since it effected differently from a lot of variables.
If items, buff, debuffs and most importantly armor would all be a set percentage then DPS would be viable measure for the damage effectiveness of your weapon.
I wouldnt mind seeing any these things displayed in the character sheet...
Spell focus - I dont understand why this is still left out.
Weapon speed - with bonus items, buffs and debuffs it be instreasting to see how much they actually effect your speed.
DPS - still not flawless, but now you can test and see for yourself and your items, attribute bonus and buffs will be included.
Armour - actual reduction of each kind of damage.
Kianoni
01-02-2009, 02:53 PM
Kia
It wouldnt be relevant information when you buy a weapon,
you still have to be quite experienced with RO to determine which is best and for what situation.
'base' DPS is irrelevant or misleading since armor, items, buffs and debuffs all effect different weapon speed differently. (No you cant ignore this, even on fort doors items and magnifications count)
If you display a value it has to be important and DPS would be if it was accurate while comparing weapons, but its not since it effected differently from a lot of variables.
If items, buff, debuffs and most importantly armor would all be a set percentage then DPS would be viable measure for the damage effectiveness of your weapon.
I wouldnt mind seeing any these things displayed in the character sheet...
Spell focus - I dont understand why this is still left out.
Weapon speed - with bonus items, buffs and debuffs it be instreasting to see how much they actually effect your speed.
DPS - still not flawless, but now you can test and see for yourself and your items, attribute bonus and buffs will be included.
Armour - actual reduction of each kind of damage.
I think DPS would be more informatic than the current "base damage" that is displayed for a weapon.
I like your suggestions for the character sheet :banana:
UmarilsStillHere
01-03-2009, 04:46 PM
You could work out a wep's base DPS, but because of armour it would be differant every time you fight a differant player,
And in answer to conzars question about why armour has differant starts for differant damage, because it just has, stabbing something and crushing something are differant kinds of force and differant armours would react in differant ways to it,
Eg, stab a door with a knife, you will make a small hole, hit it with a hammer it will spinter and break, do the same with a sheet of steal and it will be peirced by the knife and dented by the hammer etc...
A good rule is go fast for normals and slow if you use powers alot, as the % dmg powers will be more effective.
And dont bother useing a fast wep on a knight, He will proberly heal faster than you can kill him :)
Kianoni
01-05-2009, 06:46 AM
You could work out a wep's base DPS, but because of armour it would be differant every time you fight a differant player,
...
again, so is the base damage shown for the weapon different every time you fight a different player.
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