Poll do you feel Camouflage is overpowered?

[DemonMonger]

State your claims

[Vaylos]

[EDIT:] Sorry! I did not mean for this post to turn into an essay on DAOC-style stealth!

Overpowered? Not at all. In fact, I'd say it's fine as is considering the mechanics of this particular game and considering the fact that the hunter is RO's -only- "stealth" character.

I'm gonna draw some observations from DAOC here, but that's mostly because it's the only other RvR game I've played with a competent stealth setup. (well, not the only one, but the one I have the most experience with) Regnum is very different from DAOC, and it should be different. But for dealing with stealthers, I think we have it a little easy. That said, this is not a comparison. Regnum and DAoC are like Apples and Oranges. Not the same, so you can't really compare. And yeah, to get the full picture of a DAOC stealther (namely assassins, I never tried a hunter/archer type) this info is going a bit beyond stealth alone.

In DAOC, Stealth is not a "power" to be cast, but it is the nature of the character itself to invis/camo at will and indefinitely. The ability comes with the class itself (think of it as passive), and levels with the class, and you don't have to purchase or specialize in it. Same went for evasion, and a few other abilites. Rogues/Assassins always wore studded leather armor, and after Evasion III (I think that was the last one before lvl 50, I don't remember, maybe it was IV or V) Asassins had about a 30%-35% flat-evasion rate. This was not based on hit rate, but just a flat % die roll against a hit. If a hit was made (and not missed) the rogue/assassin rolls to see if he evades. Spells might be resisted, but they were not evaded.

To use stealth you had to be nowhere near an enemy and just press a key to go into stealth mode. The only way you could stealth near an enemy is if you purchased the Realm Ability "Vanish", which you could only use once every 20minutes. (I think, i'm going by memory here, so I don't remember the times exactly)

The main differences of DAOC stealth were extreme-decreased movement speed (almost but not-quite walking I don't remember if speed improved with stealth) and that players can see a faint outline of you if they get close enough, and they can hunt/search for you that way. Also, sometimes, a mage might have a specific spell that can remove your stealth cover if you get caught in it. Also, getting caught in an area or other damaging-hit auto-removes the stealth cover. Non-damaging crowd control such as mez, stun, or root would not remove stealth though. I've been frozen in place while stealthed plenty of times on that game. Course I'd die anyway cause they'd eventually find my outline, target me, and start chopping me up.

In DAOC, certain attacks had to be done while stealthed. (being stealthed was the prerequisite to start the attack, like perforate artery (sneak attack in front of the enemy or backstab from behind the enemy) And us rogue/assassin types could climb walls, and have an ability to decrease the damage we take from jumping or falling off a high point. (we'd commonly sneak in, stab/oneshot a mage in the neck, then go jump off the wall to get back out of the tower or fort before their friends knew what happened. Friars sucked though, since they were like tanking conjus and could parry with staff.)

DAOC hunters could also stealth like rogues/assassins, and they had pets, but I don't think they could climb walls. (no need to with a bow I guess hehe) I never played a hunter/archer type in DAOC though, so anyone with experience there could chip in for info on that side.

Anyway, I probably missed some info, or got some numbers wrong, it's been a number of years since I last played DAOC as a lv50 stealther, but that should give you the general idea of what we were like.

Regnum is a totally different game with a totally different system for combat and warring. I may miss the DAOC style stealth (I'm spoiled, I admit) but something like that wouldn't work with Regnum's system. It would just be too much of an advantage for us Hunters. I think Regnum's stealth system works because of how the mechanics and balances are set up. Heck, honestly, I think DAOC's stealth system may have been a little too advantageous. (which is probably why the devs made a specific spell for mages to detect stealthers in the area)

If camo was any stronger, you'd have a million "hunters suck" or "hunters overpowered" threads. If camo was weaker, it would kinda be like "what's the point?" or "if we were supposed to be sneaky, why aren't you letting us be sneaky?" As it is now, I think camo works as it probably should considering the game. That's my opinion anyway.

[Mattdoesrock]

I may have only played a Hunter a few times, but from my experience 90 sec camo just fantastic.

It's absolutely needed because hunters are weaker in alot of other aspects; defense, damage, etc. etc.

It's what makes Hunters, hunters.

[Seher]

I think the effect lasts a bit (!) too long. 60-75sec at lvl 5, 45-60 at 4, 45-35 at 3, 35-25 at 2, 15-25 at 1. This would make using camo a bit more challenging, but it would still be a very good spell.

[Anpu]

I think camou (as pets too) is trade off for some lower defense. I m fine with camou, and surprising me or enemies is fun. Its hunter philosophy after all, silent and surprise killer.

[Heru]

Barb (damage overpower)
Lock (damage overpower)
Hunter (camo overpower)
Marks (range overpower)
Conjurer (healing overpower)
knight (block overpower)

XD

[UmarilsStillHere]

That poll looks a bit iffy, as if 6 hunters would think Camo if overpowered? Its one of the very few decent spells they have :)

[dani-o]

It's absolutely needed because hunters are weaker in alot of other aspects; defense, damage, etc. etc.

i feel exactly the opossite, Camo has to change, in order that the hunter could be balanced, without an excessive skill being a nuisance in the task.
before the 90 sec camo, there was a lot of plans about the hunters, like areas for enemies, traps, control attemps etc. now with the actual camo, they cant add new skills for hunters because anything combined with camo would be unbalanced.

IMO, when the new camo arrived, the improve of the hunter stops, and all the "nerfing" got started.

im not saying that camo is "unbalanced" all im saying (and im already said it) is that the skill is exagerated, too much benefit, but pretty hard to get.
u cant balance an ultimate escaping skill by making it hard to cast, and a defensive skill do not becomes in offensive one, by making it hard to cast under attack.

[DemonMonger]

Thank you everyone for your imput. Your words and wisdom are appreciated:naughty: The poll speaks for itself. Many people that do not play as hunter say camo is not overpowered. Let's watch the results as the days progress.

[dani-o]

Thank you everyone for your imput. Your words and wisdom are appreciated:naughty: The poll speaks for itself. Many people that do not play as hunter say camo is not overpowered. Let's watch the results as the days progress.

Hello! We do not have foreseen to create to give to the mages the power to offset the effect of Camouflage / stalker surrounds.

Nevertheless, we have in mind some changes to these 2 skills mentioned, though very probably we them do not realize in this one firstly stage.

http://www.regnumonline.com.ar/forum/showpost.php?p=575298&postcount=25

[DemonMonger]

http://www.regnumonline.com.ar/forum/showpost.php?p=575298&postcount=25

omg!?! <glares>
Well whatever comes... we will be ready for it....
<clicks the link dani left>

Thanks dani-o:swordfight:

[_dracus_]

I voted overpowered because of the duration and cooldown. Hunters have to be sneaky but they must also use their brain to camo at the right time. Not just use the fact you can camo/stalker forever and ever.

Camouflage and stalker surrounding should be offensive skills (or used to prepare an attack). It's used too much as a defensive skills. I know I do it too ^^.

[DemonMonger]

I voted overpowered because of the duration and cooldown. Hunters have to be sneaky but they must also use their brain to camo at the right time. Not just use the fact you can camo/stalker forever and ever.

Camouflage and stalker surrounding should be offensive skills (or used to prepare an attack). It's used too much as a defensive skills. I know I do it too ^^.

Thus hunter do have some defensive abilities!!!! :naughty:

I use stalker to ambush at bridge or forts..... with a group of people offensive purpose. I also use stalker to try to hide the wounded so they can rest in peace. (Second does not work well because people often move and are shown)

If you try to stalker + camo forever you will eventually be found... and killed by a skilled tracker + his group. It still takes brains to operate a hunter. If you do not like your camo abilities you do not need to use them, the same as I do not use meteor / terror with my warlock.

[_dracus_]

As I said, I think the overpoweredness of camouflage lies inside the cooldown/duration ratio. Otherwise it's still a nice skill to setup ambush ^^.

While playing my hunter, I love being camoed, I even love more playing cat and mouse with other hunter. I guess It's a hunter thing and it's fun to fight people of your class (you can learn a lot like this, at least I think I did).

[DemonMonger]

As I said, I think the overpoweredness of camouflage lies inside the cooldown/duration ratio. Otherwise it's still a nice skill to setup ambush ^^.

While playing my hunter, I love being camoed, I even love more playing cat and mouse with other hunter. I guess It's a hunter thing and it's fun to fight people of your class (you can learn a lot like this, at least I think I did).

I think also that hide and seek vs other hunters is fun..... It adds a whole new spectrum to the game that never existed before. Although, I do not feel this makes us overpowered. It's all a part of the class.

[dani-o]

If you try to stalker + camo forever you will eventually be found... and killed by a skilled tracker + his group. It still takes brains to operate a hunter. If you do not like your camo abilities you do not need to use them, the same as I do not use meteor / terror with my warlock.

that is the sad thing everyone has to use them, there is no alternative.

[DemonMonger]

that is the sad thing everyone has to use them, there is no alternative.

a new skill tree called Hunting would be nice

skills
[1] Heal trap - area 10 - heals all realm players in range of trap
[2] Poison trap - area 10 - damages all realm players in trap range
[3] Call of the wild - area 10 - passive gives max +15% movespeed to allies
[4] Hunters eye - area 10 - hunter and all realm players + 25% hit chance
[5] Sleep trap - area 10 - stuns all realm players in the area
[6] Fire trap - area 10 - explosive damage all players in the area
[7] Hunters mind - passive - adds bonus dexterity
[8] Hunters Seal - area 10 - Makes an invisible circle barrier that cannot be crossed
[9] Animal kin - single monster - makes monster attack person targeting you
[10] Spirit of the beast - area 10 - hunter summons the wolf spirit to attack the enemy

who knows... this is just a rough list.... but a start....

[Fiddiccan]

In DAOC, Stealth is not a "power" to be cast, but it is the nature of the character itself to invis/camo at will and indefinitely. The ability comes with the class itself (think of it as passive), and levels with the class, and you don't have to purchase or specialize in it.

Ahem...
You obviously didn't observe very well my dear chum.

Try running around as a stealther with only 1 specced in stealth. You're gonna do just great.

[DemonMonger]

Ahem...
You obviously didn't observe very well my dear chum.

Try running around as a stealther with only 1 specced in stealth. You're gonna do just great.

in rohan online ... dhan assassins can stealth at will and it cost 0 mana...
duration infinate... cooldown none...
In rohan I am level 84

[shayologo28]

Camo alone, not
Stalker alone, not

But camo + stalker in continue in fort yes, we can't track him, we can't see him, and he cast capture fort

He is just visible 5s, when he need cast stalker.

that will be better if after one camo (cd or not cd) hunter need wait 20-30s

[fluffy_muffin]

But camo + stalker in continue in fort yes, we can't track him, we can't see him, and he cast capture fort


To capture fort he has to click on flag, then he will be visible. All action with dubble click cancels stalker and camu. So if you can't catch him you simply sucks.

[dani-o]

a new skill tree called Hunting would be nice

skills
[1] Heal trap - area 10 - heals all realm players in range of trap
[2] Poison trap - area 10 - damages all realm players in trap range
[3] Call of the wild - area 10 - passive gives max +15% movespeed to allies
[4] Hunters eye - area 10 - hunter and all realm players + 25% hit chance
[5] Sleep trap - area 10 - stuns all realm players in the area
[6] Fire trap - area 10 - explosive damage all players in the area
[7] Hunters mind - passive - adds bonus dexterity
[8] Hunters Seal - area 10 - Makes an invisible circle barrier that cannot be crossed
[9] Animal kin - single monster - makes monster attack person targeting you
[10] Spirit of the beast - area 10 - hunter summons the wolf spirit to attack the enemy

who knows... this is just a rough list.... but a start....

you know, i really do not think that they were thinking in adding one spell tree.
so, i have to think in something possible. maybe if they reduces the tracking spells down to 1 good spell, we can get 3 free spaces to add traps.
the same thing with the 3 taming spells, and calm creature.

i think that hunters do not need to track monsters, and track ally only its usefull when u are alone, and with one track skill that detects the nearest enemies instead of the farthest i think i need no more.

[DemonMonger]

you know, i really do not think that they were thinking in adding one spell tree.
so, i have to think in something possible. maybe if they reduces the tracking spells down to 1 good spell, we can get 3 free spaces to add traps.
the same thing with the 3 taming spells, and calm creature.

i think that hunters do not need to track monsters, and track ally only its usefull when u are alone, and with one track skill that detects the nearest enemies instead of the farthest i think i need no more.

Hmm dani-o,
I like being able to track the closest and furthest enemy to me. Being able to track both close and far players helps me pin point locations.
Calm creature is currently broken, and does not work period. All that it does now (calm creature) is make what ever you want to calm down aggro on you.
One tame monster skill could be beneficial as to free up two more skill slots. In the past I felt this would throw things off, but really it cannot since the cat monsters do crap damage, the bugs do slow crap damage... the only pets worth having are the 2 legged standing monsters. Maybe you should open a poll and have the players vote on this.... That way NGD can get a sense of how everyone feels on the issue. This will let them also see that the change "if it happens" will not be an overall negative thing.

[dani-o]

one thing, u cant track the closest enemy.
u can track the farthest up to 150 mts, and the farthest up to 350 mts.

it would be really nice to have the tracks skills like this: "track realm enemy" detects the closest, and "enemy surveillance" detects the furthest.

[Vaylos]

Ahem...
You obviously didn't observe very well my dear chum.

Try running around as a stealther with only 1 specced in stealth. You're gonna do just great.

That is true. I had forgotten that. But I did say it's been years since I played the game. 2004 was the last time I played to be exact. :/ Yeah, I forgot about the Stealth spec. Totally my mistake, and I stand corrected. :)

[Seher]

Suggestion: Make tracking skills cost less mana on higher levels. :)

The mana would be one of the biggest problems with only 1 tracking spell.

[Dupa_z_Zasady]

To capture fort he has to click on flag, then he will be visible. All action with dubble click cancels stalker and camu. So if you can't catch him you simply sucks.

No. Approaching flag under cammo, casting stalker, waiting for enough cooldown for cammo, hitting flag, casting low profile and then cammo. It's possible. BTW, do you think that waiting for one hiding, annoying asshole to appear is such a fun? If yes, it's plainly hunters thinking. Cammo and surroundings should be made impossible in forts and castles.

[dani-o]

No. Approaching flag under cammo, casting stalker, waiting for enough cooldown for cammo, hitting flag, casting low profile and then cammo. It's possible. BTW, do you think that waiting for one hiding, annoying asshole to appear is such a fun? If yes, it's plainly hunters thinking. Cammo and surroundings should be made impossible in forts and castles.

if u know that someone is in there (a hunter can tell you), u got to do something, if you dont want to wait and kill him, u can put some gold in the chest.

[DemonMonger]

No. Approaching flag under cammo, casting stalker, waiting for enough cooldown for cammo, hitting flag, casting low profile and then cammo. It's possible. BTW, do you think that waiting for one hiding, annoying asshole to appear is such a fun? If yes, it's plainly hunters thinking. Cammo and surroundings should be made impossible in forts and castles.

You should be able to use your camo and stalker inside forts....
Thats a major part of being a sneaky hunter bastard....
You will need to either wait them out... or use your area skills to kill him...
Everyone has the tools to kill a hidden hunter... did you set skills properly?

[_dracus_]

You should be able to use your camo and stalker inside forts....
Thats a major part of being a sneaky hunter bastard....
You will need to either wait them out... or use your area skills to kill him...
Everyone has the tools to kill a hidden hunter... did you set skills properly?

This is total bullshit. Hunters are untrackable in a fort we both know how tracker works. If trackers would give you the presence of a hunter, I would agree. Right now it's just a waste of time and fun for everyone but the hidden hunter (if not using tower glitch to hide: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ywBSm4D2MU).

[Dupa_z_Zasady]

You should be able to use your camo and stalker inside forts....
Thats a major part of being a sneaky hunter bastard....



Sneaky bastard. YOU said it and said well. :>


You will need to either wait them out... or use your area skills to kill him...
Everyone has the tools to kill a hidden hunter... did you set skills properly?

O yeah. Set skills to chase one sneaky bastard. With all respect DM, you bullshitting now.
You want me to drop shields and tactics to be able to catch sneaky bastard hiding in a fort?
Go out off your hunter limited thinking for a moment. If you play hunters vs. all the rest then you're missing the point of the game a little bit.

[Dupa_z_Zasady]

(if not using tower glitch to hide: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ywBSm4D2MU).

O JHC! I haven't seen this before and didn't know about it. Maybe cause i decided not to grind my hunter.:naughty:

[DemonMonger]

Sneaky bastard. YOU said it and said well. :>



O yeah. Set skills to chase one sneaky bastard. With all respect DM, you bullshitting now.
You want me to drop shields and tactics to be able to catch sneaky bastard hiding in a fort?
Go out off your hunter limited thinking for a moment. If you play hunters vs. all the rest then you're missing the point of the game a little bit.

no no no ... Im just saying everyone can have at least 1 area skill...
once you locate the hidden hunter if your group all uses areas same time... the hunter is dead....

[DkySven]

Devestate(1) is useful to cast at spots in the tower where there might be a hunter hiding. The only drawback is that the damage will only appear in your log when the hunter's camouflage has run off.

[Comp]

Actually - where forts come into play: NGD should fix it correctly so the guards always cancel capture...sometimes they do but most of the time they don't. If this was fixed you could leave the totally stupid hunting side the fort to either die or log out.

In my opinion....a hunter recapturing a fort after it has been re-take is no different then someone abusing a known bug. This issue is known; therefore, a hunter doing this should (in my opinion) be banned. NGD needs to fix it.

[UmarilsStillHere]

I agree the fort camo tactic(bug?) Is getting very old and very annoying... I cant count the times we have taken back Herb or Alga and got to pb/pp2 only to hear that its been captured, then run back to find it empty and 1A running off on the track.