Combat system test - Amun open

[chilko]

Hello everyone,

as of now we are opening Amun to start testing and gather feedback on the changes introduced in the combat system

there are some known issues that might appear:

- some animation glitches or animations that still need adjustments
- a rare bug in which you appear to be in combat mode and you are not
- warriors being able to throw attacks to corpses

One clarification: warriors will throw an attack animation even if they are not really in range in some cases (its like a failed try...) this is intended.
proper feedback for this must be added.

Also, final adjustments to balance have not been made yet, such as damage, or weapon speeds or arrow costs.

tactics for 1vs1 (melee vs. ranged) will change a lot... you will have to start using some spells that might not be that useful before, please remember that the focus is balancing for RvR situations. instead of complaining about how you could take out a single warrior with 3 button presses or without being touched before and not able to do the same thing now, try to find out new tactics to win.

Please lets not make this a thread about old system vs. new system or a flame war against us changing something... we really need to gather positive feedback on how to make this work as it is WAY better technically to our previous implementations.

best regards,

-Chilko

[Kyrottimus]

Realizing this is still 'work in progress'....

I've tested both archer and warrior and here are my observations:

Pros:

* I like the new archer attack speed, and I feel I can get with the rhythm of normals/spells fairly easily.

* I like how with the archers, if you are "not facing" your enemy, your stance is different than when you are facing (bow held close as opposed to held out while aiming). It makes for faster recognition (via animation) instead of waiting for the "you are not facing your enemy" message.

* I'm glad archers have had their feet planted (shoulder-width apart as should be) when they fire and I like the new archer animations. Also, not being able to shoot sideways while strafe-kiting is a reasonable. Even with the new "stop while attacking" limitation I was able to get within range of a yellow mob and kill it in 6 hits with it only hitting me once, so grinding is still doable.

* I like how warriors can now cast buffs and area spells while on the move, makes for faster gameplay.

* I understand the purpose of the Global Cooldown and I like how it was implemented (with full spell-bar yellow timers)

* I like the new tree models and textures on things and "fixes" to the game-world, it looks a lot nicer

* I like the realm names of characters now reflecting their realm color (light blue, orange, green) instead of the sub-title of clan-name or just realm title being colored.


Cons

* I don't know if this is ONLY for warriors but it's only them which I've noticed it: NO MORE pre-casting:

EXAMPLE: Before this update, due to positioning and not being sure exactly WHEN my spells would trigger, I would click them a second or two ahead of time, and when the game synced up enough for my char to be within range, he automatically launched that spell. Now, if I "pre-cast" it and run up to my target, I'll only do normals. And even then, I have to hammer a spell, (like kick or south cross) REPEATEDLY to get it to trigger...and even then it's too late and not in-sync with when I wanted it to go off.

This is VERY annoying and this alone is extremely detrimental to the flow of melee combat.


* I realize you need to tweak some animations, but honestly... the "Running while normal attacking" barb animation is about the goofiest, lamest animation I've seen. I literally laughed out loud and thought "Man, this guy swings his Great Claymore like he's having a pillow-fight"


* Visual cues for archers to do normals and spells is very foggy, and when to stop and when you can move again between attacks is very hard to "guess".



These are my observations, simply as 1 player with 1 frame of mind. I only reall play warriors and archers and don't know much about mages.

[VandaMan]

It seems to me that the first attack after moving my hunter takes 2 seconds or more, even though all the following attacks are very quick (due to the +100% attack speed). I'm not sure if it's a bug or not... but if it's intentional then the extra attack speed is rather pointless, since you nearly always must move in between attacks.

Bug? Feature? Just my imagination?

[chilko]

It seems to me that the first attack after moving my hunter takes 2 seconds or more, even though all the following attacks are very quick (due to the +100% attack speed). I'm not sure if it's a bug or not... but if it's intentional then the extra attack speed is rather pointless, since you nearly always must move in between attacks.

Bug? Feature? Just my imagination?

its not a feature... if it happens its a bug.

We had a bug like this and we fixed it... after we fixed it it still looked as the first shot was slower but it was because of a perception thing (as the animation is different for the first shot)

can you please record this on video and post it on youtube or something to time it?

[Shotya]

Guys,

I am currently leveling a hunter (40). I agree 100% with the strafing and back peddling being taken away.
However tanks can still strafe and with this new setup I am completly unable to defend myself properly. I cant turn with them and shoot. I cant move at all and shoot. WTF??? How am I suppose to play my hunter now???? I am NOT a tower humper.
Also Like the guy above said when I stop my hunter the first shot should be faster. Moving forward should not stop a shot period thats wack. What about runners? We have a right to have a decent character as well as everyone else.
I can tell you we are far from over powered when an easy con lock can kick my butt.
Surely you guys can see these errors I have mentioned and will adjust it so my hunter can compete in RvR as an individual or in a party.

[chilko]

Realizing this is still 'work in progress'....

* I don't know if this is ONLY for warriors but it's only them which I've noticed it: NO MORE pre-casting:

EXAMPLE: Before this update, due to positioning and not being sure exactly WHEN my spells would trigger, I would click them a second or two ahead of time, and when the game synced up enough for my char to be within range, he automatically launched that spell. Now, if I "pre-cast" it and run up to my target, I'll only do normals. And even then, I have to hammer a spell, (like kick or south cross) REPEATEDLY to get it to trigger...and even then it's too late and not in-sync with when I wanted it to go off.

This is VERY annoying and this alone is extremely detrimental to the flow of melee combat.


Hmmmm.... we will look into this... do you feel as if you fail more spells now?



* I realize you need to tweak some animations, but honestly... the "Running while normal attacking" barb animation is about the goofiest, lamest animation I've seen. I literally laughed out loud and thought "Man, this guy swings his Great Claymore like he's having a pillow-fight"

We are not happy with some of the animations either... the pillow fight comparison is very good :). We are facing limitation of our animation system but we will try to have better results. Remember this is not final.

* Visual cues for archers to do normals and spells is very foggy, and when to stop and when you can move again between attacks is very hard to "guess".

we will add proper projectiles in the 2.0 update maybe we can do something as a placeholder for better feedback... we know that is difficult to know when you completed the attack playing without sound.

thanks, this is the kind of feedback we need.

[_Enio_]

its not a feature... if it happens its a bug.

We had a bug like this and we fixed it... after we fixed it it still looked as the first shot was slower but it was because of a perception thing (as the animation is different for the first shot)

can you please record this on video and post it on youtube or something to time it?

- I second that. It takes 2 seconds with a fast bow to shoot, all hte next shots are much faster, but always the first shot after a move or a turn is delayed by 2+ seconds (it scales a bit with bow speed). It makes close combat literally impossible combined with the facing angle. (quite happy that its seen a bug)

- Another thing is no more precasts. its really a big draawback, hope you add it again.

- Some spell/casttime changes i do not like at all (like eg. retaliation getting a 1 sec casttime - its a very situational selfbuff, a 1 second cast which you have to stand still for kind of removes all the small use that spell had for 3/4 points you spend into it..)

Apart from that, gameplay feels slow and static for me but might be due to the delay bug.

Note: Tested Marksman only

[Klutu]

Ive Been having the issue with my spells. (not sure if bug or Intended)

But while buffing it seems my spells are Failing Frenzy/Caution/Tfb and i have had to click on them multiple times after my Global Cooldown was not in affect.


like kyro said i don't like the running attack Aminations they look very uncomfortable and like he said looks like im having a pillowfight.

i also don't like about the global Cooldown is that my Weapons speed does not affect the global Cooldown at all.

To me the faster the Weapon the Shorter the Global Cooldown. but i supose that could be abused.


So far i really like the Update but it needs alot more Testing and Feedback it's nice to see such a change :)

Cheers

[VandaMan]

Warriors can mount a horse while moving... lol

[ArchmagusArcana]

I love the GCD, even though it does take away the cast delay advantage of faster weapons, but it seems with slow or faster, you can cast and attack once each, with vslow, its cast and then attack, cast, cast attack. Ill test this more.

I hate cancel of spells from moving, really. If you make it so you cannot move, thats fine, its normal, and natural, but moving canceling is really rough on a mage that must either move or die, as we have no armor. Will make fighting warriors very hard, as they can both cast and attack while moving.

Not sure if this is a bug or not, but as a warrior i can run and cast an area without stopping, and it takes effect when its done casting, but if i start to cast it and move, it cancels.

Still testing......

[_Enio_]

That delay seems very situational. Eg it is not there when you kill a monster and then target the next without moving in between.(the char stays in an aiming stance after the first monster death)

The delay isnt so big.. but its longer then the following shots. (isit only some ping thing?)

Generally that change makes archers now "dancable". like Warlocks before the spell change - normals can be ran out/through/out of the 90 degree arc..

Is this intended that you can run/dance out (thought it was just about standing still)?

[Mattdoesrock]

Well my thoughts so far on my Barb, Marks and Lock:

Casting while running... Is this intentional? Or a bug... Either way, it's really really good, I love it. BUT! It should be the same for all classess... Even if movement speed was reduced slightly (hell I don't know, perhaps archers / mages have to concentrate more while casting?) but yeah, moving casting for all.

Also it can be very very hard to use skills when moving around someone. You will keep doing your normal hits, but you don't seem to start your powers easily. This even happens when you're not in combat mode. I had my target stunned, and was hammering Jaw Breaker, but it did not cast, and instead I did a normal attack.

I tried to take a video... But my software decided not to work...

Like Enio has said, there are some balance issues that need to be addressed. -- Nearly all ranged attack spells have been given a 1 second cast time, as crap as that is, you can live with it - But some spells you cannot. Two that come to mind are Retaliation and Dispell and the healing spells... <-- Which aren't even attack spell, but are defensive spells / buff's.

These spells are very situational, and need to be acted on VERY quickly. Both are meant for very quick situations, that take skill and timing to use well. With the 1 second cast time, this is nulified sadly.

A few more things:

- Using potions start your global cooldown... Not really important, but might be a bug.

[Immune]

I've only tested my conj so far, here is what I've seen:

It seems that ALL spells have some sort of cast time now, anything that used to be instant, isn't anymore. Why? If mages rely the most on spells, shouldn't they be able to cast a few on the run, especially heal spells and buffs like arcane devotion. Trying to run and stop constantly as you try to get in your usual buffs is just an unnecessary pain I think.

I noticed that if you move while casting, the spell doesn't go into cooldown and the mana isn't used, which is good. But when the spell is cancelled by a mob/player, it does go into cooldown (which isn't the problem), but the yellow timer doesn't show up if that happens. I had to press arcane devotion for a minute after being cancelled because I couldn't tell when it would be ready again.

Sometimes when casting a spell, there seems to be an unmentioned precast before the actual cast initiates. What is this? A bug or intentional? It doesn't always happen, so I'm assuming it's not supposed to at all.

The new mage casting animation... eh, I don't like it much honestly, it almost seems as if this new animation is a main reason for the "no instant spells", because I couldn't picture myself running and sticking my arm up in the air like I've accomplished something while running. I'm sure that's not the "actual" reason, but still.

One last thing which has nothing to do with combat, you've added premium gem buying. What gets me is that it costs MORE than lucky boxes... and lucky boxes are expensive, as everyone knows. You realize that the best "buy gem" costs nearly $15 worth of xim? Can't say I ever plan on buying these, but hey I guess some people just have that kind of money to throw around.

[von1958]

my knight using slashing has no problem at all but my barb when attacking ripost must be hit up to 5 times to get it to work once or twice it said it was in cd but it was not

[ArchmagusArcana]

Yeah, i really hate that new mage animation. I like that there is a new one and that you are trying to spice things up, but to me it just looks silly.


Positioning seems to be a lot better, but it SEEMS that i can hit with a mace from 3 meters away, and with a spear its about 4. Were melee ranges increased as well?

I have noticed that precast as well. It seems as though Arc Dev (usually the very first spell i cast when i log in), takes about 2 seconds to fully cast, almost like my character is trying to gather his thoughts before he starts the spell.

As for precasting, as klutu mentioned, i loved to be able to lock a meteor on someone and when they get in range, have it cast, same for things like beast attack etc. I am assuming that this is a part of the solution to remove 'piggybacking', but precast was something that many of us really liked. I will mourn its loss, bu its fairly easy to adapt to that.

Back to the movement canceling casting. It causes a lot of issues, even for warriors. To cast a spell sometimes you have to hit the key several times, for quite a while. Turning will cancel a spell as well. Is this meant to happen, or is this an unintended side effect.

For the most part i like the update. The big thing that i really really hate is the movement thing. It makes me feel like im trying to play a turn based game in a real time environment. For classes that have light armor, like mages and archers, having to stop to cast, and THEN NOT MOVE AT ALL, not even turn, till your spell is done really detracts from the feel of the game. I would be ok with being slowed, or an imob effect, but having to cancel my spell just sucks (especially to guess the timing), i feel that i would get killed far more often because of this.


There is a bug with Duel Banners. You may not use normal hits if you initiate a fight with a banner. Of course i only tested this with realm mates as in test server you can talk to other realms and organize fights without the need for any of that. This held true for at least barb, lock, knight. Alsius had no conju, and i did not pvp any archers during the time i spent on the test server.





Also, thanks for putting this up here for us to test. We know its not done and that its still an update in progress, and i for one appreciate that you sat around the office and took the time to talk with us about various things in the game. Im not at all trying to trash this update, but i do want to give honest feedback on things i dont like :D I for one plan on spending a good bit more time trying to get used to things as well as i can.

[Ulti19]

I only tested a knight in amun recently and im actually really liking alot of the changes.

-i love how i can now use moves like shield bash while moving
-i actually like the new crazy swing animation, it looks as if my knight is
actually trying to hit something
-and i find its awesome to be able to name my horse:D

However i found that if i attack normally now and then cast lets say gutting, the gutting takes longer to be used after the regular attack, it isnt used right after normal hit. Is this intentional or mistake?

[King_Of_Angmar]

So far only tested my hunter....

-I like how the new animation is when in range/out of range. (e.g. holding the bow out like aiming while in range)

-I saw that I could no longer change my weapons and armor by putting them on a skill bar button, was this intentional? I play ninja sometimes(right now :P) and the bow switch is really key for me so it's almost necessary that I am able to put them on a bar for quick switches.

-It really doesn't seem like I'm hitting a whole lot faster, even just standing still. Its hard to tell from these animations when the shot is totally off and I can move again.

[e30G]

Try re-equipping your items on your skill bar.

I have yet to test this update, but I do not understand why instant support skills such as heal ally, dispell, synergy bond etc had cast times raised. These are as Matt said, highly situational skills where timing and reflexes are paramount. Adding cast times to them would detract from the gameplay experience IMO.

[_Enio_]

Some things:

Retaliation:
Defensive selfbuff, should be Instant.


Bug with async. movement cancellation of spells (here Winter stroke)?:
Could it be that I cast eg. winder stroke and my client gets a cancel message from my own movement - the spell still got sucessfully cast? Maybe when i move just close to the end of the cast? Because 2 times we had something like this happen and the cooldown animation on the spellbar was missing, not castable due to bein on CD though? Think that happened once with matt and once to me later.


[Note: Its really really hard [imho a bit too hard] to get a hit not cancelled when fighting a dancing/runningthrough/strafing aside - barb/knight in close range. Even with bigger zone around urself to hit even behind you the time i need for a fast shot(fast sb +12% as) is enough to get it cancelled by running aside/through between the instant hits of the melee class.]

I look forward to more testing tomorrow when precast is maybe already back :)

[-Edge-]

Can we set a date for a couple of us to try a fort battle or something? Maybe later today at around 6/7PM GMT+1? If that suits anyone.

[Shotya]

So far only tested my hunter....

-I like how the new animation is when in range/out of range. (e.g. holding the bow out like aiming while in range)

-I saw that I could no longer change my weapons and armor by putting them on a skill bar button, was this intentional? I play ninja sometimes(right now :P) and the bow switch is really key for me so it's almost necessary that I am able to put them on a bar for quick switches.

-It really doesn't seem like I'm hitting a whole lot faster, even just standing still. Its hard to tell from these animations when the shot is totally off and I can move again.



Try fighting a strafing melee class with your ninja. Try figting someone who runs away.

[Arafails]

Yeah the lack of precasting is really really tricky.

Apart from that I haven't had much problem with spellcasting while moving (barb), position seems much more manageable (Although having people zoom behind you while they get knocked is amusing), What I've noticed is it will fire off a normal hit animation without performing a hit before starting to cast, and if you've moved too far in that time you lose the spell – Annoyingly it does initiate the spell's cooldown but doesn't show it anywhere (could be related to global cooldown?)

I'm having some issues with spells showing up as level 1 on my quickbar (and only my quickbar) when they're actually level 3 or 4.

[_dracus_]

Do we have to stop to select someone ?

[Klutu]

so Many warriors are overjoyed about this we have been waiting for this for a long time. after alot of training i have come to notice and i feel that this nerf to the range is a bit to much imo i think it should be toned dow

[NotScias]

Tested it with SM conju and barb ...

What I like in this update :
Global cooldown : I think it's cool to be able to buff in the same speed whatever the speed of the weapon we use.
Realm colored nicks / pet names : It's less confusing and more clear.
Improved attack speed (for ranged) : This makes the game more dynamic and the grinding at low-lvl less painful.
"Realtime" action : maybe it's because when I tested, Amun server was quiet, but I feel that now the battles are more realtime, when you hit an enemy, you see it in the log and the hp bar drowns immediately and not with some seconds late, I really have the feeling that there's no more lag in battles.


What I don't like :
Unable to cast/attack while moving : I really think it's the more annoying part of this update, now ranged classes and especially mages will be at the mercy of warriors, because they won't be able to cast without being completely stopped, and then warriors will be able to reach them without any difficulty and cancelling their casts... I know that ranged need some nerves and warriors some improvements, but I think this new feature is too crazy...
Instant spells (mages) nerfed : Now all instant spells have a cast time, like Synergy bond, now is 1s cast time, and then you need to be stopped to be able to cast it... but some instant cast spells like Mind Push (also "nerfed") is especially made to escape from an enemy, and really needs instant casting, if you have to stop to cast it, it becomes really useless...
New animations : Even if I think that some change is always good, I think that the new casting and combat animations are... ahem... not good, and not so useful.
No pre-casting : It was a really useful trick, now it's annoying because sometimes to be able to cast something you have to hit the button several times, it's annoying. I hope it will be back.


What I think useless :
Ability to name mounts
New rock textures (I think they are ugly compared to previous ones)

Globally :

I don't know what to think about this update. For me, there's good things and bad ones too, but globally, I don't really like this update because there's too many nerves against ranged, instead of improvements for warriors.
Really I think there's too much sacrifice for ranged, who will have almost to relearn to how to play this game.

Best regards,

[Kyrottimus]

Hmmmm.... we will look into this... do you feel as if you fail more spells now?


Not so much "failing" spells, but like in the current version, 1.0.7, I can target a guy, and like have 5 seconds from clicking kick or beast attack or whatever to where I get within range and it triggers.

Now, it doesn't "queue" the spell attack until you get within range, it discards it, and you have to literally rapidly click the spell as you approach the "trigger" range if you want to do it within the time-frame you hope. And even then, it's problematic, as my char would often do a normal and not trigger the spell. Hence the "hammering" the spell icon repeatedly.


We are not happy with some of the animations either... the pillow fight comparison is very good :). We are facing limitation of our animation system but we will try to have better results. Remember this is not final.

we will add proper projectiles in the 2.0 update maybe we can do something as a placeholder for better feedback... we know that is difficult to know when you completed the attack playing without sound.

thanks, this is the kind of feedback we need.

I'd love to do more testing on Amun as you guys work on this latest version, however my 4-month old, "GOOD" PC just fried on me (for no explainable or consistently repeatable reason).

I can still play RO, however, on a 9-year old computer which really can't handle much. So I'll have to waylay my Amun testing until I can fix my good computer (or get a new one... I hope not).

But until then,

I applaud your open responses to our concerns and efforts to address them.

Best Regards,
-Kyrottimus

[Klutu]

After alot of testing i have noticed that atleast for warriors our attacks are severly delayed to not being able to attack at all it seems that id have to stop to use a normal hit i hope this is not a Feature but a bug.

Cheers

[Kianoni]

just tested on 2 level 50 chars, here's my thoughts.

Hunter
- "you can not cast while moving" - this needs to go, really annoying
- "spell cancelled by turning/moving" - this needs to be changed to something else
- precast does not work, I need to get some tapping lessons from some guitar teacher

Knight
- "I can run and buff opposed to ranged char that needs to stop and guess timing when to move" - nice but give this to other classes too
- precast does not work, I need to get some tapping lessons from some guitar teacher

Easiest for a warrior to land a spell on a moving archer:
1. get tapping lessons from a guitar teacher
2. get out of combat mode and play your solo

then some not so constructive quotes from IRC

< Kianoni> a lot of spells are useless with cast time
< Kianoni> it's the ngd way
< Kianoni> finetune and adjust means "WE WILL RAPE EVERY ASPECT OF THE GAME THAT HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH THIS ONE ISSUE"
< Kianoni> when did the "somos pocos" turn into a "zerg with no brains"?


hope you come up with right decisions and make this game what it deserves to be, the best RvR in the world!

[chassor]

the new system is really really worst than i tought , much friend told me it will suck i replied them , oh no this is normal to have retro pedaling removed when shooting , but now i tried it i must say it sucks

when i ear the sound of my arrows going i move (normal my arrow is gone so i can move) but my shoot don't go , i must wait a bit longer to ear the impact of my arrow before moving

now i really don't see how it can be playable and fun anymore for archers, hunters with pet and sotw will be able to play and win , but ninja are just screwed it looks like (i just did little test) .


right now the game is dynamic so the dynamic classes have advantage (ranged) in the future the games will me more static the the static classes will have the advantage (melee) NGD just changed the problem without resolving it , so you'll have as much compliant as you have now in the future .


for my part is this system is adopted as is right now i will just quit the game, beside all nerf my class had i never consider quit the game , most of those nerf we're needed but this last move is just kill the fun of fighting (just stand , shoot and pray you have the best weapons/luck) ...

no thanks !

[Mellion]

If only a part of those nerfs hit the real servers only one thing remains: Goodbye, this time for real.

I can't believe that ngd destroys marks, hunter and wl with such ideas after conjus have been pushed out of the game a few months ago.

Let me bet, that 4 weeks after the "update" 85% will be warriors having the same setup.

Btw, I want a refund of my 70€ which I will have wasted on marks and hunter.

Those poor guys who spend those 5000 magnas on bows ;)

Friends, if you haven't tested Amun: try arcana devotion, wait for cooldown and cast Barrier. You will understand, that your char will be dead.

[_dracus_]

From testing there is a lot of tuning to do with this system. At least the no shoot time should be shorter on Ranged class, not instant like it was, but not as long as it is now.

I still think the mouse turning should be an option that you can disable, so you won't need to stop to select someone.

Some skills really need a shorter cast time IMO (I do not have tested with marks but it might be same):
- Heals (all of them, 1s is a joke)
- Mind push (...)
- Arcane devotion (now you have to freeze to cast it ... or make it duration > cooldown so we can cast it while still havin it)
- Stuning fist (1s is the biggest joke ever, 0.5s was already a lot for this kind of skill)
- Ensaring arrow is now definetly useless in chasing an oponent, with 1s cast you lose what you win in term of speed penalty.

[Arafails]

From testing there is a lot of tuning to do with this system. At least the no shoot time should be shorter on Ranged class, not instant like it was, but not as long as it is now.

Possibly also give a visual cue for when you'll cancel an attack by moving.

I still think the mouse turning should be an option that you can disable, so you won't need to stop to select someone.

Not sure what you're getting at here, I've always been able to run and select without problems, although... I don't use mouse buttons to run.

Some skills really need a shorter cast time IMO (I do not have tested with marks but it might be same):
- Heals (all of them, 1s is a joke) 0.5s is really the absolute max here. I'd opine also that having any cast time on regenerate ally is ludicrous and pointless
- Mind push (...) I've been of the opinion that instant cast mind push was silly, but combining any cast time with the ranged attack cancelling is... obscene... Correct me if it doesn't affect spells,I haven't tried it out yet.
- Arcane devotion (now you have to freeze to cast it ... or make it duration > cooldown so we can cast it while still havin it)
- Stuning fist (1s is the biggest joke ever, 0.5s was already a lot for this kind of skill) I'd argue that 1s is just about perfect actually. The sort of opponent you'd need to use stunning fist on has to stay close anyway, and remember spells are no longer affected by bearing after the cast time.
- Ensaring arrow is now definetly useless in chasing an oponent, with 1s cast you lose what you win in term of speed penalty. OTOH, you may not lose as much as if you'd, say, stopped for a normal hit. I'd always thought that Ensnaring was supposed to slow an incoming enemy, anyway. Keep them a little further away for a follow up ambush or whatever.

[_dracus_]

I'd always thought that Ensnaring was supposed to slow an incoming enemy, anyway. Keep them a little further away for a follow up ambush or whatever.

I always used it both way. As I said I believe it's now useless for catching people (combined with stop to shoot). However you are right about the usage on incoming target, it was even more efficient before when we were able to kite :-)

[Winds]

I wanted to make a decent well argumented post, but trying to do so I felt like lying, so I ended up writing the following rant.

It clearly seems that you tend to change things way too drastically. This can be seen with previous nerfs, where some spells definetly need changing as they are overpowered. Your solution is to make those spells so bad nobody uses them anymore, when you could've just tuned them down a bit and if that isn't enough tune them bit more (or if the nerf was too big, then give the spell bit more power back).

This time I'd say you've done the same on a grander scale. Surely many warriors where complaining about the previous state of the game, but fixing it doesn't really need all these changes. Just some small things could've made it more enjoyable for warriors without screwing ranged chars, which seems to be the case now.

Here's a bit of a list of the new changes:

global cooldown, that nerfs mostly casting based chars (conjurers and warlocks)
more cast times to spells of ranged chars
removing sliding while firing
making archer's firing range narrower
removing buffing while moving from rangeds
making warrior cast times not stop them
moving cancelling spells and attacks of ranged

Coming soon:
nerfs to the dmg of ranged characters

I won't even mention the extremely long time you have to stand still until a shot launches after moving, cause I think it's a bug.

Seriously the current balance would've been rather nice with one or two of the listed changes that all improve warriors vs ranged, yet we get that whole list. The coming soon is just a joke, i mean after all these you want nerfs to the dmg? I think rangeds need an increase to their dmg to balance the list above.

I honestly don't understand what the global cooldown brings to the game. (Unless it's the mechanism to remove piggybacking.) Does the same interval for spells regardless of weapon speed add something to the game? It probably makes slower weapons more desirable, but is that honestly a good change, if people have put their effort in getting good fast ones? Previously good players (not me) could use fast weapons to buff faster and change then to a slower, but more hard hitting weapon. Was this unintended behaviour that needed to be removed?

Forcing people to stand still before and while casting/attacking makes the game much less dynamic and in my view less fun. The canceling of spells because of movement is just annoying, even if it gives the possibility to cancel miss clicks.

Trying these changes felt like trying a new game. It also gave me the feeling of an attempt to integrate all the bad aspects of WoW to this game. (Next update would probably include jump in that case.:razz:) Unfortunately I simply couldn't test more then briefly, cause trying amun made me want to enjoy the current game as long as it still is playable. I'll give the changes a new shot once the "bug" that forces you to stand still ages after movement is fixed and precasting is available again.

[Akooo]

From testing there is a lot of tuning to do with this system. At least the no shoot time should be shorter on Ranged class, not instant like it was, but not as long as it is now.

I still think the mouse turning should be an option that you can disable, so you won't need to stop to select someone.

Some skills really need a shorter cast time IMO (I do not have tested with marks but it might be same):
- Heals (all of them, 1s is a joke)
- Mind push (...)
- Arcane devotion (now you have to freeze to cast it ... or make it duration > cooldown so we can cast it while still havin it)
- Stuning fist (1s is the biggest joke ever, 0.5s was already a lot for this kind of skill)
- Ensaring arrow is now definetly useless in chasing an oponent, with 1s cast you lose what you win in term of speed penalty.

I second that, this spells should be instant, also Crystal Blast and Blaze. I tested on Marks and Warlock, this spells are of limited use if not useless with the cast delay for have to stand still.

We also discovered a bug with duel banners, you can't do normals during the fight, only spells.

[Inkster]

Ok, ive just been to Amun on both hunter and the smelly goat, I must admit im very disappointed in the new update.

The fact that mages can no longer cast arcane devotion nor energy barrier while moving is not good. Compound that with if we move after starting to cast either they get aborted. This is just the tip of the iceberg.

Archers seem to be no better

Im sorry NGD but i personally think this is not an improvement to the game at all, it is more like 10 steps backwards. I truly hope you decide not to implement such nonsense into this game. As it is i play a lot less than i used to, this will probably finish me off if this update comes to pass as it stands.

[Isemon]

this update kill the dynamic that made this game different and more enjoyable than others. Instead of improving warriors u decided to ruin the fun for 4 classes on 6.

[Freduardo]

this update kill the dynamic that made this game different and more enjoyable than others. Instead of improving warriors u decided to ruin the fun for 4 classes on 6.

Make that 5, I still just feel like a tiny lump of constitution running around. Blocking nada. Hitting like a pansy. And without pre-casting hardly any of my debuffs or cc spells land.

However, let's not despair too much and try to convince NGD constructively to remove some of the nerfs. After all, amun is there for testing and feedback.
(Yes, I still have some hope).

[Isemon]

However, let's not despair too much and try to convince NGD constructively to remove some of the nerfs. After all, amun is there for testing and feedback.
(Yes, I still have some hope).



I have hope too, but in the past ngd followed the way they decided even if they gathered negative feedbacks...why should they listen to us this time? so if we like it or not... here the way they choosed.

[ArchmagusArcana]

With some minor changes, this update can be one of the best we have seen in a long time.

I love GCD. Sure i have to wait a tiny bit longer between spells on my lock, but i can now use any speed staff i want (picking ofc the one with the best bonuses): increased weapon choices.

The biggest thing for me i guess is that unlike previous updates where things are the same for all classes, and imbalance is a side effect, it seems that this update was premeditated to tip the scales vastly in favor of melee characters.

If my warrior can run and attack, why can my mage or archer not do the same? Slowdown on attack for all classes to me is acceptable.

Movement canceling a spell, must go, it will ruin gameplay for ranged chars and force them to be more or less fortbound in order to attack and not die. Slowdown or imob on cast, thats one thing, but FORCING us to stand still and guess when the casting is dont, or when you can move again....well it really just suck and takes away a lot of fun from the game.

My first impression for warlock was that casting speed was useless, but the more i think on it, the more vital it is that we have the fastest CS possible (which is all the more reason to make it imob or slowdown on cast rather than move-cancel), as the animation does not always tell you when the spell is done and there is log delay also, this new system eliminates a lot of the advantage of high CS.



Im late for work so i have to go.....i will write more later.

[Orimae]

Hmmm....hunter, messed up...conju, even worse now...my barb, can only hit with spellls it seems...

I know NGD have worked very hard on this, but really, its not good, for just about everyone, i wont be spending anymore xim if this is even a glimpse at what the future of RO is gona be like :(

I will save my money for some new Xbox games >.<

[_dracus_]

Hmmm....hunter, messed up...conju, even worse now...my barb, can only hit with spellls it seems...

I know NGD have worked very hard on this, but really, its not good, for just about everyone, i wont be spending anymore xim if this is even a glimpse at what the future of RO is gona be like :(

I will save my money for some new Xbox games >.<

Fonepixie you tried your barb with duel banner ? I tried few hours ago, and my normal hits (with hammer) did land pretty easily.

[Orimae]

Fonepixie you tried your barb with duel banner ? I tried few hours ago, and my normal hits (with hammer) did land pretty easily.


Sadly yes...with Llayne...couldnt land one single normal hit on him, positional bug maybe, but then, all my spells landed :/ ended in a draw >.<

Oh, and that was using a sword and a spear :(

[_dracus_]

Sadly yes...with Llayne...couldnt land one single normal hit on him, positional bug maybe, but then, all my spells landed :/ ended in a draw >.<

Oh, and that was using a sword and a spear :(

There is a bug with duel banner I think, I think I read that here or on the spanish forum.

[e30G]

I tested it.

1 second is far too much time for healing, dispells and synergies. Common sense will show that from the start. They are emergency spells used to support allies. Any casting time on those is too much. Casting times feel slower now as well.

Conjurers definitely feel clumsy, boring and slow now. If the update pushes as is, I'll have to say goodbye to my favorite class as it will no longer be fun to play it. There will be much more standing around. Moving around while fighting was one of the best aspects of this game.

Animations feel clumsy and stiff. I know those aren't final yet, much needs to be improved there.

Pre-casting should come back. It was an important feature before. I hope it's absence is a bug.

Archer fights seem boring. They are just standing there exchanging blows. Again, movement was one of the fun things in this game. Footwork and positioning required skill. Now it seems so static specially from a third party view.

[Southern_Filly]

Ran several tests with my hunter against other archers and warriors and here is what i have found. A couple are issues that were previous problems but could be more of an issue now with this update. First it is my opinion that hunters will rely more on pets so i did testing with pet skills.

1. The "training" passive which is suppose to give pet more health does not work. Its the same damage to kill pet even at lvl 5.

2. The "performance" skill which is suppose to increase evade chance also did not work. On lvl 5 i had less evades then i had when not used at all.

3. The "Natural Armor" passive also does not work. I used at lvl 5 and the damage per hit was the same on average and even more in a few tests then when i had only on lvl 5.

As i said i feel that hunters will need to rely on pets more so perhaps these skills could be "fixed" somehow.
Also when a warrior gets behind me, it was impossible to attack. I back up, try to hit, he run behind me and i either get "you are not facing your enemy" and when i tried to get in front of i get "you cannot move while casting" only to have him run behind me again. Yes i know warriors (and mages) have had this issue since the beginning of time and you may feel it is our turn but shouldn't it just be fixed so none have to deal with it? Or maybe it was just my problem and i had lag or something. Anyway for the most part i like the updates and feel it is more fair in balance. I do have a couple suggests in the name of balance and they are just my opinion so please do not reply to this post with attacks.

First... in testing with another hunter, ambush was rendered useless as we have to stop to cast and too much time is lost, it was impossible even with mobility AND SOTW to knock another hunter that was running the same speed down. Can we perhaps make ambush the range of the bow we are using? I know short bow users will be pissed at this but it could really benefit if you just open your mind to the idea.
Second... Would it be possible to make "retaliation" an instant cast? With the "you are not facing" and "cannot move" issue this would help compensate (IMO).
Third...Give pets powers. I have suggested this before but never had a reply. Why does a pet have mana if they cannot use a skill? Moobs have powers, can we please give one to pets?

Thank you for keeping us informed with this upcoming update and as i said before, i really think for the most part it is going to be a good update IMO.

forgot to ask... is there a bug with the rest option? When i sit i automatically stand back up before intended, sometimes immediately after sitting. Also... I LOVE THE NAME COLOR OF REALM!!! Thank you for listening to that suggestion!

[Isemon]

I tested it.

1 second is far too much time for healing, dispells and synergies. Common sense will show that from the start. They are emergency spells used to support allies. Any casting time on those is too much. Casting times feel slower now as well.

Conjurers definitely feel clumsy, boring and slow now. If the update pushes as is, I'll have to say goodbye to my favorite class as it will no longer be fun to play it. There will be much more standing around. Moving around while fighting was one of the best aspects of this game.

Animations feel clumsy and stiff. I know those aren't final yet, much needs to be improved there.

Pre-casting should come back. It was an important feature before. I hope it's absence is a bug.

Archer fights seem boring. They are just standing there exchanging blows. Again, movement was one of the fun things in this game. Footwork and positioning required skill. Now it seems so static specially from a third party view.

agree. the movement is one of the best aspect of this game, that many other game lack of.

[v0rt3x]

agree. the movement is one of the best aspect of this game, that many other game lack of.
That's right. But the sliding-shooting must gone out of the game!
Because the movement at Amun today isn't fair. So the ranged classes are UP and the meele classes are OP atm. The game isn't more dynamical, it's more static! This is not the right way for balancing classes.
The 1 sec. casting time of so many previous instant spells sucks.

[Heru]

is it normal i feel slower with my elven +3% cast speed :S i just dont have time to cast something ....
maybe keep the initial cast system for some buffs like Devo and Magic Barrier (and healing stuffs) ... and introduce this new casting system for offensive spells.


Hmmmm.... we will look into this... do you feel as if you fail more spells now?



We are not happy with some of the animations either... the pillow fight comparison is very good :). We are facing limitation of our animation system but we will try to have better results. Remember this is not final.

we will add proper projectiles in the 2.0 update maybe we can do something as a placeholder for better feedback... we know that is difficult to know when you completed the attack playing without sound.

thanks, this is the kind of feedback we need.

And artist view :
Can i creat some Bipeds animations (on 3Dmax Studio) and send you my idea on youtube for fun :razz:
Btw i always respect your works, its like a reference for me, keep it up ! Like my teacher said :< Not bad, you just need some tweak here and there >

and THANK for read my poor english ! hihiih

[linearguild]

Also when a warrior gets behind me, it was impossible to attack. I back up, try to hit, he run behind me and i either get "you are not facing your enemy" and when i tried to get in front of i get "you cannot move while casting" only to have him run behind me again. Yes i know warriors (and mages) have had this issue since the beginning of time and you may feel it is our turn but shouldn't it just be fixed so none have to deal with it? Or maybe it was just my problem and i had lag or something.

I also had this problem and it's easy to replicate with long-casting spells, e.g. Lightning Arrow. If the casting finishes when the target is outside the normal arc of attack, the spell will not fire and you get the "not facing your enemy" message. Is this a new bug, or did NGD intentionally return this check to spells?

[Shotya]

ARE YOU GUYS SERIOUS???? Log in try a hunter IN A PVP FIGHT NOT AGAINST A MOB then talk to me. Archers are completly unable to defend themselves. I do not want nor am I going to roll a tank so I can continue to play. If this patch comes to light sadly I will delete and leave.
I don't know if NGD tried this out or just thought everyone has a tank and would be like ohh JOY but BS this is crap.

The only nerf archers needed period was backpeddling made slower and maybe the strafe taken away while in combat.

IMO you can't leave it so others can do it but we can't. WE CAN NOT DEFEND OURSELVES!!!!!



P.S. I also want to point out that GEMS should not be able to be bought. NGD is giving an advantage to anyone with a few bucks. The game should be balanced and since its F2P nothing that can make your character supreme should be sold with Xim.
I am not complaining much because I happen to be one of those guys with a few bucks, but what about the poor guys??
Which if this patch comes out you won't have to worry about selling Xim to me.

[Comp]

My Input:

Everyone knows me as a hunter, been playing a hunter in this game since just after beta. I've been through every modification you can think of and here's my take on it.

This update isn't the end of the world (well for some it will seem like it) but instead of dwelling on what was, try to see how you can modify to fit into the new world. Think of it as natual selection :) - nature ofcourse being NGD. Pets will be ALOT more useful to you now. I think this will probably put the hunter population under control now :)

One bug I noticed was how long the archer pauses before the first hit. But from what I hear that's a known bug.

NGD: Question - will transfers come with this update??

[Radian]

From a marks:

- I could probably learn to live with the "stop to do anything" concept as long as it was across the board for all classes, but it feels like a board game.
- I could probably learn to deal with movement canceling spells and normals.
- I could probably learn to work around the lower damage.
- I like the global cooldown.
- The long delay before the first shot is completely unacceptable and unplayable.


To new archers, the animation combined with the sound effect makes it appear that they took a shot and missed. Instinct will make a player want to step back from the charging mob/player. The normal will go into cooldown again. Rinse/repeat, post in realm chat "how come I can't shoot anything".

The animation/sound effect are a mess. Normal animation and Recharged are out of sync.

Stepping through an archer or out of the narrow "aiming" area makes us defenseless. This made warrior classes unplayable before. What do you think it's going to do to archers?

Adjusting slightly to get around posts/fort roofs/rocks/etc means that the target is long gone, or I'm dead, before I can get in a shot.

I won't be anywhere near a fort door unless unless the fort is empty. By the time I spin and get whoever pops out in my sights, I'll be dead. I'll be stepping in and out of the archer guards range working on them hanging out with the locks and conj's. Have fun at the door.

As for fort wars, you can count on me staying inside. I'll watch the field war from the wall if they happen at all.

I think I'll change my name to "Sphere the Slow Stationary Turret".

- LET US TEST WITHOUT THE DELAY BEFORE THE FIRST NORMAL. :fury:

[Jippy]

I am going to piggy back on Kyro's post...

"pre-casting" of attacking spells like gutting, or non-attacking like feint are not working correctly. Or are they?

Before I attack a enemy I "pre-cast" (while moving) a spell like feint or gutting before I get to him/her. When I am in range of the target the spell kicks off and is executed. Most warriors attack in this fashion.

Do mele classes have to be standing still (which would suck) to cast attacking skills after the update, or is this a bug?

Regards.

[Warthog]

Ok my quick thoughts, not that I tested it for an extended length of time. I would simply ask that you bring back to where it automatically stops you moving while casting a spell. With lag, and time added to cast of all spells it will be very very hard to conj, cause instead of stopping for 1 second many of us will in actuality be stopped 3+ seconds, which I know I get is what you wanted people stopped more for melee to get a chance, but the length of the stop will make it too one-sided in way of warriors now. My solution would be to make it as is now, with casts stopping you moving but you can still hold down movement key so can move right after the cast is done without it being canceled. Also add a 0.5 sec cast time to all instants, or even 0.75, so that the slide casting will be nullified but the basic theory of what you want, stopping people slide attacking or slide casting spells on ranged characters will be gone. This is just my quick opinion from a full support conjurers mentality, not tested it on marks or knight yet. Oh yeah, an bring back pre-casting to where you click a target an the spells casts when in range or facing please. Or will you be reimbursing all players for worn out keyboards an mouses for having to bam a spell button 20 times to get it to cast when we want? :p

Edit: An if you feel the need that there must be some nerfing other then just gameplay mechanics changed to slow down Mages, I would not be against Arcane devotion being drastically reduced as long as I could still have the server stop me for the prescribed time needed to cast then let move again while holding down movement. I lag, alot, almost always, the way it is set to change, I will be standing 3+ seconds in any actuall battle to cast something that has 1 second cast time, this is not right. Yes it makes it easier for melee classes, but it IMHO destroys even trying to play a ranged class. Especially one who as support conj need to actually be semi-close to warriors to even help them.

[Recoil]

Good update, makes sense for me :) Casting area attack in advance and landing it instantly after running in the middle of zerg is really cool :dance: Also not being kited by :gun_bandana: and their :bear: (guess who that are) all the time is something new I enjoyed very much.

NGD please go and implement this update :wub2: and hunters will get some payback :fingers:

[Dannboy]

I have no words, therefore I made a vid.
I havent played with anything else but Lock and barb in the new update, but this looks horrible.
I lagg sometimes, I can take that. But I have NEVER EXPERIENCED POSITION BUGS. Now, as I have, its fking horrible. I feel bad for those who had it all along.

Theres alot of bugs, no idea what caused them. I dont really see any improvements, not right now.

I have already semi quitted playing the game, I have no more hope in it. I am just here to chat with my friends, maybe support others with my pt Conju. I was looking forward to this, but if this is even close to what its gonna look like when you are done, Ill stand still chatting with others, or even worse, ill quit, because I wont have anyone to chat with.
Everything in this vid is real, except that black screen that sometimes pops up for a milisec, I do not get that while playing, thats just because I was filming. I do get the black dot appearing at my Item icon, just so you know.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-GOuyF2VM0
[/Complaint]

[Znurre]

Ok, this is my take on the changes.

Pros:

I absolutely love the ability to run and start casting non-instant skills at the same time, it makes the whole gameplay much smoother and funnier.
However, this behavior could be considered as a bug since if you run, start casting a non-instant skill, stop and then walk again it will be canceled.

Some clarification on the intended behavior would be welcome.

Cons:

The fighting seems slower in general, more time waiting between hits/skills than before even with a Very Slow weapon (could be an illusion created by the animations).
Usually I cannot attack anyone with normal hits, only skills and I get stuck in the ground and will only get released if I cast any offensive skill.

I uploaded a video to youtube showing this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNGSGMY__6I

I assume this is not the intended behavior.

Also, I don't like how this update seem to favor the use of skills over normal hits.
It will now be faster to spam cheap 100% damage skills than doing normal hits - in order to get a high DPS, I don't like this.

Normal hits will be obsolute.

[gluffs]

I was just in a short while on amun, the thing that got my attention imediatly
was that i could not switch weapons whit the quickbar. Is this a bug or a new
feature? The switch whit weapons is imo vital to be able to use skills from
different trees fast.

[Znurre]

I was just in a short while on amun, the thing that got my attention imediatly
was that i could not switch weapons whit the quickbar. Is this a bug or a new
feature? The switch whit weapons is imo vital to be able to use skills from
different trees fast.Just remove them from there and drag them back again.
It will solve the problem.

[gluffs]

Just remove the from there and drag them back again.
It will solve the problem.

Ah ok thx.. im new to this amun thingy ;)

[Eli2]

The cooldown and casting times for mages are _far_ too long.
This takes a lot of dynamic out of this game
and brings Regnum closer to all the crap that is already out there.

[Nikor]

The cooldown and casting times for mages are _far_ too long.
This takes a lot of dynamic out of this game

I have to agree. This and the introduced casting time on heals/dispel/etc. will probably drive the last remaining support conjurers out of the game. At least I will play that class even less than I already do.

[Orimae]

There is a bug with duel banner I think, I think I read that here or on the spanish forum.

Ahhhh splains alot >.< thanks :)

Oh well, back to amun tomorrow, will just need to take him up the area :superpusso:


And i havent had a chance to read through all the posts, but has anyone thought how this will affect our dragon killings? even the superbosses? :dumbofme:

[platyna]

I couldn't test much since both of my mages are level 1 on Amun.

However I noticed that I can't assume attaking position - I do press control, when I run I run with attack stance but when I stop I am no longer in attacking position and even if I target something I do not attack, pressing control gives no result, nor the button from actions menu. Also after I cast I can't move and only relog helps to fix it. So for now it is totally broken for me.

BTW Chilko, is fixing vesper's archer brestplate and other really necessary but minor bugfixes planned?

Regards.

[GIO879]

That's really great you 've just removed the fun in this game
You already broke the dynamics of the game with the invasion system (too much waiting (organization)for the meeting before the attack)

You always decrease the spell (defense and damage)of the warriors and after you re surprised there aren't enough warriors in the game , hahaha funny!!!
if you want a good balance play much at you re game with all the character or ask at all the best players what to do to equilibrate the class

i play a marks , a barb and a knight, so i know what i'm talking about
the barb just need some speed attack for the charge and little more defense
The knight a little more block, cause actually block system is really to low
And for the marks if i can't hit during the movement how can i escape, i m not a chicken, i win a lot of fight against 2 players cause they was really too much static. I really like the new movements i ve lot of fun with them why to broke all


I play at this game cause it s like counter strike in a mmorpg's game


YOU ARE REALLY REMOVE THE FUN OF THIS GAME ( that was his force against the other game we can find)
And like the other i ll put my money in other game if i have no fun !!!

DO this update and you will lose a lot of players