New Balance Update: some BUG fixes and tweaks (Stage 5) [Archive]

chilko

08-09-2010, 10:30 PM

Hello everyone
Welcome to stage 5 on amun

A BUG was corrected that made very difficult for warriors to cast instant attack spells (thanks Znurre for the video). Please check if you find any improvements in the warrior combat experience.
Several movements of positions In scouting discipline
Damage increase for Hunters
Damage increase for Marksmen
Slight Damage increase for Barbarians

Spells

Archer’s range reduced by 5m (live: 0 stage 4: +10 stage 5: +5)
Camouflage: remove speed penalties (soon we will add some can cast some buffs and tracking skils while in camouflage- not implemented in this stage)
HOTP: change to a new active skill – Cold Blood short and powerful damage buff (to be tweaked)
Wild spirit adjustment: 2-7%
Sentinel: added +1-5 Dexterity points (besides its usual Concentration bonus)
Escapist: new skill that provides high evasion mana: 200-320 – duration: 7-15s – cooldown: 60s
Escapist: switched with Spell Elude.
SOTW: mana reduced: 260-420. Cooldown reduced to 60s
Acrobatic: bug corrected. Now the resistance is to magical and physical damage (so it goes through the armor system properly).
Perfil bajo: added casting time 0.5 (as our other sactuary spells) duration reduced 4-10s. Cool down reduced to 60s. Mana cost reduced to 180-260.
Soul Keeper: Same drain but in 10 rounds of 100HP (1 second per round). Cannot be cast on mobs.

Please try to help us testing and posting your feedback.

bigjim

08-09-2010, 10:33 PM

Hello everyone
Welcome to stage 5 on amun

A BUG was corrected that made very difficult for warriors to cast instant attack spells (thanks Znurre for the video). Please check if you find any improvements in the warrior combat experience.
Several movements of positions In scouting discipline
Damage increase for Hunters
Damage increase for Marksmen

Spells

Slight Damage increase for Barbarians
Archer’s range reduced by 5m (live: 0 stage 4: +10 stage 5: +5)
Camouflage: remove speed penalties (soon we will add some can cast some buffs and tracking skils while in camouflage- not implemented in this stage)
HOTP: change to a new active skill – Cold Blood short and powerful damage buff (to be tweaked)
Wild spirit adjustment: 2-7%
Sentinel: added +1-5 Dexterity points (besides its usual Concentration bonus)
Escapist: new skill that provides high evasion mana: 200-320 – duration: 7-15s – cooldown: 60s
Escapist: switched with Spell Elude.
SOTW: mana reduced: 260-420. Cooldown reduced to 60s
Acrobatic: bug corrected. Now the resistance is to magical and physical damage (so it goes through the armor system properly).
Low profile: added casting time 0.5 (as our other sactuary spells) duration reduced 4-10s. Cool down reduced to 60s. Mana cost reduced to 180-260.
Soul Keeper: Same drain but in 10 rounds of 100HP (1 second per round). Cannot be cast on mobs.

Please try to help us testing and posting your feedback.

Sounds great so far!!

I was a little concerned when you changed the range from 40m to 35m, but now I feel a bit better saying archers will be compensated with more damage!

I am anxious to test, and great work NGD staff!

regards,
Refe

metsie

08-09-2010, 10:35 PM

Damage increase for Marksmen <-- umm, I didn't get any increase, normals are low low, around 250 with slow bow so it feels like it's even worse..

but hunters got uber damage buff now, arghhhhhhh

Kittypretty

08-09-2010, 10:39 PM

I didn't test but..isnt escapist + sotw like the old sotw again? I guess the price would be pretty steep though.

So soulkeeper can be dispelled correct?

Glad sentinel has dex bonus now as well, as I use sb primarily, and dont get the bonus from Maneuver so this may help I guess.

Hope for a damage bonus for mages too soon..or at least the staff mags working right..I'd like to seem them redesigned into a single buff with an acceptably dmg bonus of the same element attack in staff, like other classes, or to three unstackable buffs with an acceptable rate, so players can choose what type of damage they would use in conjuction with their primary element type. Just guesses, as I want them to be usable again, and not just killed, as the idea is nice..its how it was implemented that made it a bit overpowered.

Still would like to see a change in confuse though, but I guess you did say you wouldnt change it, but that still promotes its same usage even on amun, since regardless of my speed, i can uncamo and confuse a supporter, and cast sanc quite easily still. I'm glad the duration was lowered though, but its still possible to get back into most teammates range with it, or cast sotw/new escapist maybe after it runs out, (havent tried new escapist, i was using sotw previously simply for the resist for ambushes/kicks from pursuers)

chilko

08-09-2010, 10:46 PM

I didn't test but..isnt escapist + sotw like the old sotw again?

preety much... anyway... SOTW also had a 15% speed bonus all in one spell (hehe)

Gideon_Slack

08-09-2010, 10:49 PM

If NGD can get camouflage right, this will keep a stealth class (and those customers who like to play one) in the game, even if speed is permanently nerfed.

How can NGD get camouflage right? Make it insta-cast (0 second casting time).

Buffs and tracking while in camo are fun and great for PvP, but they do not address the sense of being a sneaky individual in the virtual world.

Previously, Hunters relied on speed to get out of danger. If camo became an "escape" spell (and not just an attack one), Hunters could still go off on their own and not be s.o.l. if they encounter the enemy.

With insta-cast camo, Warriors could still be the speediest class, but Hunters could kept the sense they can melt away into the forest at anytime :p.

Ulti19

08-09-2010, 10:50 PM

Did you do any more damage reduction for knights? I find I am doing 240 normals on a slow weapon which has very good stats, against a buffed target I will hit them by almost nothing.

Nekoko

08-09-2010, 10:52 PM

...

Giving hunters the ability to do 700 damage ensnares is not my idea of balance. Nor the fact that my level 33 hunter now does higher damage normals as my level 50 marks.

Also archers are back to having god mode again SOTW + Escapist. I thought you guys wanted to avoid this?

Only positive change I see is the range reduction.

I'm told the barb damage boost is negligable at best...

Also the buffing in camo is a very bad idea! It's going to encourage ganking all over again!

Soul keeper change acceptable and providing mobs change acceptable it doesn't work on them.

Low profile change is ok I'd have prefered it removed but meh.

Disappointing update sorry guys archers seem to be getting lifted to the top of the food chain again.

Klutu

08-09-2010, 10:56 PM

This Seems perfectly fine

I notice a slight difference in my Barbs Damage

I was noticing slow reaction to spells being casted (thank you Znurre :P)

There is a bug with "Protector" that wont let you activate/deactivate it if your under fire. (Artec/Bois has more info on this then me)

----

Question:

Is NGD going to redo all the saves like they did with Trelle

When & Where is the Teleport from Alsius to Efe

----

Things are really looking good! Keep it Up! - :thumb_up:

Klutu

08-09-2010, 10:59 PM

Also archers are back to having god mode again SOTW + Escapist. I thought you guys wanted to avoid this?

I don't consider this to be a godmode spell combo.

As long as there Movement Speed remains low this will not become a godmode spell combo

Topogigio_BR

08-09-2010, 11:02 PM

In fact for marks seems damage have gone even lower. Without spells i am doing 40-55 on ancient sabertooth with fast sb.

Kittypretty

08-09-2010, 11:11 PM

Well i dont thinkk itd be god mode like the old one, but it will give hunters some more chance to dps I guess, I cant say till i test though. I hope both will allow the cancel of camo though, even if resisted or evaded.

(since it was common for hunters back in the day of old sotw to use rapid shot+dirty fighting and fill them with normal hits, then camo while under sotw yet. I remember most of my fights using old sotw being like this, if it didnt fail, I could do some nice dps that made up for the fact I had no offensive spells to use.

I do agree on maybe lowering the usable time for it though, so both cant be on simultaneously for duration, because their cooldowns are the same. This would make easy Uncamo confuse sotw+escapist combos deadly..not to mention the fact that old sotw had a "no dmg skills" debuff.
so maybe making it so under escapist can only cast normals? as it seems more like a tanking/run away skill. Maybe even something like "archer is concentrating solely on evading all attacks, so he cannot cast non damaging powers? Or maybe even none, I think they should have some limitation, so they can either do heavy damage under it, but cant do most trick skills, like distract shot, ambush, confuse. I could see a possible role of uncamo, cast escapist+sotw, and have enough mana to confuse conj, distract shot another, ambush another player, and stun fist another. Thats alot of players out of combat for a bit. Im just throwing out possibilities, dont even know if all are even goning to work or my ideas may suck, IDK.

I don't know, just an idea, I just don't want itt to be uncounterable like the old one, where hunters could uncamo, confuse conj and kill him without any fear at all. as it stands id have 15 secs to do the job, and a possible 10 secs to escape back to ally lines.

_Enio_

08-09-2010, 11:14 PM

Seriously i dont like that SoW & new Escapist create more situations you can barely counter.

Would you mind to further tweak the cost, CD and change the Duration to 3,4,5,6,7s? It shouldnt be a spell you use to tank heavy incoming attacks for such long amount of time.
Especially the combination of the new Escapist and SoW will be seriously retarded. 7s is more then enough to use it tactically but not long enough to unleash deadly combinations.
It would also limit its use as a get out of tricky situation. Well timed or antizipated use would still be greatly rewarded.

For the range changes. I would prefer to make the range of bows not a plain +5 but a
+0 for range 20
+2.5 for range 25 and
+5 for range 30 and tweak maybe a little the damage increase for the shorter ranges.

It made some sense that the spell range steps was matched with the bow ranges (which increased power on those closer steps).

The more close you were the more dps you could do for the cost of being vulnerable to more (and maybe more powerful) ranged spells.

Casttime on Lp should make it more fair in the sense of escaping a chained cc after a knock. (non archers couldnt just spam a spell to get out of a often 100% death situation) +1 for this.

The lack of speed for my preferred class bothers me a bit. Hopefully the lost dynamic it offered will be traded for some new dynamics that can strategically used and bring more fun. Static play is just boring.

TheMessenger

08-09-2010, 11:17 PM

I can't test the changes on Amun yet so Ill give my full opinion when I do.

I just guess Ill repeat what I said before

PLEASE LOWER ATTACK SPEED/ARMOUR OF MOBS AND TAKE AWAY THEIR POWERS.

Also, I think the reason they gave hunters new escapist+new cold blood+omni (omni+cold blood should be moved to tricks/lb/sb so marksman have it too imo) is that they still haven't nerfed pets and I think that there is a high possibility that they are going to remove them or severely lower their dmg.

Topogigio_BR

08-09-2010, 11:26 PM

bois

08-09-2010, 11:27 PM

I don't know if it is a bug or feature.....

I tried protector aka Defensive Stance using no other buffs and a fairly balanced armour set.

Besides my tests with Faith and Klutu, I also tested with archers and a sm conju.

It seems that once I am under attack , normals or damage spells from ranged, I can activate DF Stance and it works as prescribed. In other words it mitigates the damage and my own attacks are dulled by the prescribed amount. I can't cast damaging spells as expected but I can cast spring , etc.

When I try this with a melee however, Once I am under attack the spell does not seem to activate. At first I thought it was just due to calculations of armour points and their weaknesses but still it should do some mitigation. I got no damage reduction at all.

So I tested pierce and saw no mitigation, same for slash and blunt. I was able to damage and cast as normal too. I thought then I must have clicked the toggle twice and deactivated it by mistake so I was really careful to make sure I did not do it. I stood still and made sure not to hit any spells and possibly trigger some sort of deactivation. Same result.

In one odd PvP I decided to kick then hit the spell and it worked versus blunt attacks. Now, I noticed this since the spell first came in but I decided to keep testing to make sure I wasn't the one making a mistake.

If I cast this spell well ahead of time and under no attack it usually does its job against melee.

This operation also happens versus mobs too. Hit it and run in and you are okay. Try to hit it under fire and it does not seem to activate even though the Icon is up and timer running down. This is only in a melee type situation.

I will continue to test it. In other reports this update is looking decent. I did a PvP versus another knight with ~5014HP versus my measly 4330 and I was on slash versus their blunt. I was actually able to win a few with such odds stacked because of a tactical style I cooked up on the spot.
Anyone who says versatility will be lost in this update needs to come to Amun again and think outside the box. There are hidden possibilities here.

Edit: Almost forgot, the DF Stance animation "sticks" not giving you a proper feedback to whether it is active or not. Rather irritating.

Artec

LupeFiasco

08-09-2010, 11:37 PM

looking at barbs, i can notice the fix...thanks for that =)
looking at hunters, well we gots kinda buffed now lol even though this is my secondary class.
looking at marks, i really don't see the damage difference to be honest o.O its still the same 250-350s depending on your bow's speed, setup that you're using e.t.c.

I'm not really a big fan of warlocks but can you explain why you made soul keep unable to work against mobs? I remember speaking to locks when as they got the skill for the first time said it made grinding easier cause now they rest alot less..could that be the reason?

Topogigio_BR

08-09-2010, 11:41 PM

I really dont like what you have made to soulkeeper. it was a very good spell that perfectly mtached the fragily and power of locks. Plus locks are mages, and as mages rely on spells to do something in game, without soulkeeper locks can on rely om vampirism to regem hp/mana.

I am very worried how locks game play will be if they cant self sustain with mana.

The only option is to use vampirism/ambitious and have constantly mana communion on. But Mana communion is yet a spell that consumes to much mana.

Nhuzgul

08-10-2010, 12:27 AM

I didn't see the damage increase either, though I am loving the change to the range. I'm using a slow bow and I'm only doing 200-250 on unbuffed mages.

bigjim

08-10-2010, 12:30 AM

I didn't see the damage increase either, though I am loving the change to the range. I'm using a slow bow and I'm only doing 200-250 on unbuffed mages.

Yea, and imo the rang isn't going to be enough to compensate for the much lower damage.

Marksmen need that "something" is missing.

Recoil

08-10-2010, 12:35 AM

Facepalm ...

bigjim

08-10-2010, 12:42 AM

Facepalm ...

you can virtual facepalm all you want to, but what does that add to the discussion nothing!!

I don't want to be a marksman relying on evasion spells..... and tricks....

I want to be able to do at least some damage if I am playing that class, but we will just have to wait and see what the update brings.

but the facepalm is really immature.

Seher

08-10-2010, 12:56 AM

bigjim

08-10-2010, 12:59 AM

Pretty much what I think about this. 7s is really more than enough, as I'd just use it on level 1 anyway :sifflote:

But I think range 20 bows shouldn't exist, as it's really close to the enemy.

Oh and cold blood feels great :D 650 crit

I just don't understand how NGD is going to make hunters hit harder than marksmen; even if it's a short duration skill? :O

Mikan

08-10-2010, 01:00 AM

To discourage Knarbs, move Disable limb to Tactics and add an immobilization/knock spell to Slashing instead. Back slam and Defensive stance also need some love to cope with the lowered damage and movement speed of Knights. The new 'Protector' spell also really needs to be 30% damage resist and +100% protection at level 5 instead of +200% protection. As it stands it is far too dependant on the Knight's armor which forces players to chose between decent armor (for one buff) or decent stats.

I am not yet convinced that the changes for Knights are beneficial. Keep in mind that after this update, Knights will participate in charges alot less, because 1) Deflecting barrier, which is now fixed, is best for covering archers and mages due to its effect, and once you are in a melee battle it is useless, 2) Knights will have no damage to help with melee combat and 90% of their spells such as Kick, Ribs breaker, Balestra and Shield bash will be disabled, and 3) You only need Shield wall to support a charge, which you can just cast on all of the Barbs and let them go, you don't even need to follow.

So far it is looking like the Knight will merely be a support unit instead of the warriors they previously were.

Kind regards.

Kyrottimus

08-10-2010, 01:14 AM

Please bring back Onslaught to affect the caster.

Even if the damage bonus is only applied to allies and not the casting barb, the speed boost should at least affect the casting barb as well so he can at least rush with his allies if he's the only barb in the group.

Thanks.

Gytha_Ogg

08-10-2010, 01:41 AM

It looks like pets can't go as far from the hunter as they used to. I'm seeing about 22 meters on Amun vs 38 or so on Horus. Hunters will have to hide behind much closer trees when their pets are killing me. Wear raincoats, guys, audience in the first 22 meters WILL get splattered!

Nhuzgul

08-10-2010, 02:02 AM

with this update I feel like a petless hunter and I shouldn't have to run around with lvl 19 tricks or lvl 19 evasion to survive in a war. Marks should do more damage than a hunter period....if the vision is for marksman to be the offensive archer class a hunter should not be able to out dps a marksman.

Edit: Especially when the marksman is specced out for high normals and crits.

NotScias

08-10-2010, 02:10 AM

First, speaking as a mage, making SK as DoT is Okay in my opinion, because it has a chance to be dispelled, but making mobs immune against it, why ?
SK is the spell that makes Warlock grinding decent, saving them from resting too much, now grinding a Warlock will be a pain, because it's already hard enough due to resists... I know you want to make mages' grinding harder, to "promote" other classes, but making it a pain will just make more people quit....

Then, speaking as a marks, I don't notice the damage increase, it's still incredibly low.

Thanks for making a step back concerning the extra range, because +10 meters was really too much.

The Low Profile nerf is good too, it was almost always used as a cheap emergency button to escape any situation easily, I'm glad it will be over.

I'm kinda worried about the new escapist. This new spell combined to SoTW will be like a god mode, almost immune to spells and normals but able to attack is too much, especially concerning the new SoTW cooldown, I think both of these spells need to be reduced in duration.

I don't understand why hunters need this new spell, yes this is short, but very very powerful, too powerful for this class really, especially regarding the AS increase and its low CD, really at the moment, marks hit like butterflies, but you give to hunters such spell ? I really don't understand, see how OP it can be already :
http://tinyurl.com/3y838nc

Same thing for the removal of camouflage speed malus, and allowing hunters to buff under camouflage, Hunters are overpowered already, and you buff them more.

To finish : When will we see a nerf for Confuse ?

Kittypretty

08-10-2010, 02:52 AM

with instant cast camo though, id still be able to escape any 1vs1 or 1vs2 ever. assuming im not dizzied or knocked, i still have several spells to give me time to cast camo even NOW, just takes more points. I can use stun fist, distract, ambush, and camo, or for even a little range, use hinder or caltrops (thought i doubt caltrops..just saying if say i had 3 barbs rushing me and i needed to run id use it to gain ground) followed by a snare if just 1v1, and thats some time to cast camo.

I think itd still promote the class to be able to exit any fight as he chooses, which isnt good..all classes need a risk of being killed with no escape possibilty in pvp.

I agree also about the fact sk cant be cast on mobs shouldnt be there though, as theres no reason why a mechanic should work in pvp but not pve..its too confusing, and players need experience with skills early on. I have limited experience grinding a lock but i remember using sk extensively, because of resists and needing hp. with changes in armor though, barrier does last longer, so i can see sk being less crucial but still..IMO grinding should be made easier for melee, not harder for mages. Maybe something like taunt needs to have a shorter cool down, a frenzy type damage resist spell for knights, or potions should be bought for gold.
A class experience bonus even? like knights can have a 50% bonus per mob?

Mikan

08-10-2010, 02:59 AM

To finish : When will we see a nerf for Confuse ?
NGD has already stated that they are not nerfing Confuse. They feel the other nerfs were already enough.

Regarding Cold blood: It should be swapped with Strategic position and increased to 15 seconds. Marksman is the offensive class and Hunters are the defensive class. This long history of Hunters being DPS and Marksmen being tanks has to end.

Some other improvements to Marksman offense:
- Increase Death sentence to +25% damage and make it range 35.
- Reduce Parabolic shot to 15% range bonus
- Increase Specialist to 15% like other damage passives, and move it to Aiming replacing the hit chance passive there
- Change Foresight to a fixed range increase: +6 meters on level 1 and up to +10 meters on level 5

With the new shortbow range these changes would help Marksmen more adept at short bows than longs, which I feel is a good change simply because short bows has always been the more offensive (DPS) of the two bow diciplines. The rangers (Hunters) should be more adept at long bows due to their lack of range projection abilities. Remember: Marksmen should not be killing machines from a distance, but they should be killing machines from mid-range, because it is their territory.

The Hunter's ability to fulfill this role instead has lasted too long and it is time for some change.

Kind regards.

Hamster_of_sorrow

08-10-2010, 03:34 AM

/me taps his foot anxiously....

ons still doesnt affect the caster.... i think that you should leave onslaught alone and barbs will be "ehhhh ok i guess".

hell, if u were feeling REALLY generous, you could also make Off With Their Heads affect the caster as well.

i think that to compromise, onslaught and off with their heads ONLY affect the caster IF it also affects another ally.

FOR INSTANCE:

1) a barb is running to a fort, no one else is around, he casts ons and nothing will happen.

2) a barb is next to an ally, he casts onslaught and both the ally AND the barb get the affects. (works with any number of allies).

KryHavoK

08-10-2010, 03:57 AM

Hello everyone
Welcome to stage 5 on amun

Damage increase for Marksmen

Please try to help us testing and posting your feedback.

I'm really not seeing this. In fact before reading this thread I thought you'd actually slightly decreased Marks damage again.

Hello everyone
Welcome to stage 5 on amun

Spells

HOTP: change to a new active skill – Cold Blood short and powerful damage buff (to be tweaked)

What are the stats on this spell? It's sounding like Hunters are now the hard hitting archer. I'm hoping that I am misunderstanding this spell.

Bidinger

08-10-2010, 05:52 AM

Damage increase for Hunters
Damage increase for Marksmen
Slight Damage increase for Barbarians

Archer’s range reduced by 5m (live: 0 stage 4: +10 stage 5: +5)

Please try to help us testing and posting your feedback.

Preface: the following tests were all done against Ancient Sabertooths (yes, a mob, which apparently isn't a valid test) and with a Thorkul sb (which apparently is also invalid). You can't compare this directly to players, but you CAN compare these test to EACH OTHER to see the differences in damage.

All shots were done with the same setup and the same gear. I took shots against the cats on Horus, Amun stage 4, and Amun stage 5. Thorkul sb, specialist 4 (8%), 2 RotBS (9-15 fire each), archer master amulet (4 dex), lightness lvl 4 (12 dex), +5 dex helm, +5 dex leggings, recharged arrows lvl 5 (+40%). No buffs (except recharged arrows) were used.

Horus - 84 shots - average 343.95, range 25
Amun(4) - 83 shots - avg 234.77, range 35 (25+10)
Amun(5) - 84 shots - avg 222.92, range 30 (25+5)

Again - all shots done on a mob, so these numbers do not translate perfectly to war, but the decrease should be similar.

The damage dropped by over 100 in the stage 4 update, which was a lot. But we got 10 meters of range to make up for it, so it wasn't so bad. Doesn't fit my style at all - a lot of my fighting is done within 5-10 meters, almost all within 20, but I'll learn to adjust. 10 more meters might have been able to justify a decrease in over 100 damage per shot, but now the damage is supposed to increase from stage 4 to stage 5 to make up for splitting the difference with the range, yet the damage has remained pretty much the same (lowered, but barely).

Has mob armor been increased by like 200 points in this update (compared to stage 4), or was there no increase in damage to compensate for the decrease in range?

Side note: all damage has been severely nerfed, stop bitching about your class being the weakest class ever and completely useless (almost what I'm doing here, but more pointing out that there should be an increase in damage, yet there is none).

Shwish

08-10-2010, 07:22 AM

i havent had a chance to test this new stage on amun yet but my guess is that the lack of increase of the marksmans damage is a bug which will most likely get fixed as soon as NGD reads this thread.

Some other improvements to Marksman offense:
- Increase Death sentence to +25% damage and make it range 35.
- Reduce Parabolic shot to 15% range bonus
- Increase Specialist to 15% like other damage passives, and move it to Aiming replacing the hit chance passive there
- Change Foresight to a fixed range increase: +6 meters on level 1 and up to +10 meters on level 5

Death Sentence at 20% damage is still a pretty awesome spell. the only problem i had with DS is that the cooldown is just way too long. the usual case is that when you hit an enemy with death sentence he either dies, hops off the fort wall or runs to the back of his zerg which results in the marksman having to wait 45 seconds to use it again. What i'd like to see is the cooldown drop to 15 or 10 or even 7 seconds to be on par with ensnaring arrows cooldown. Death sentence is a marksmans only useful team based skill and the only reason i stopped skilling it is because of its crazy cooldown.

I like all those other ideas. Fix this new marksman damage bug please. my weapons arent the best but no hunter should be able to outdamage me

blood-raven

08-10-2010, 07:48 AM

hmm, i realy liked my 60m range :(, no matter the dmg reduction, besides, tested on every possible class with RA 4

knight (unbuffed) i did around 100 dmg, full buffed 36,

barb (UB) 150, buffed 100

lock: around 150-200 sometimes 200+

conjs (UB) same, buffed everything from 50 to 150.

so idk why you lowered it, it's not like we are going to kill you in a matter of minutes, i prefer range before dmg, cause it's why i chose marks.

i just tested the new range, and pls i dont care about the dmg reduction just give the 40m back.

but it's just my opinion

thanks

tjanex

08-10-2010, 08:25 AM

Outlander

08-10-2010, 08:26 AM

I like the new Soul keeper as a DoT, I guess a rebalancing of this spell was in order because of the new damage system, but I agree with scias about making it castable on mobs, after all it's DoT with a high cool down...

Now I don't have a hunter so I don't know how camo precisely works, but being invisible and not having speed penalties.... I personally don't like this, since you nerfed the speed I suppose no casting time is a fair trade, but still having the same mobility isn't right. Point is: I can't be stealthy when I run like hell (unless I'm a cat).
About the implementation of the ability of tracking while in camo, I think it's ok.
About being able to cast buffs under camouflage? Imo it's fine as long as the victim can hear the hunter buffing so that the "predator" can still have the advantage of landing the first hit but the "prey" knows something bad is gonna happen and can ready himself.

Also onslaught needs to affect the caster, so that the caster can join the charge.
Maybe, if you really feel the need of changing this spell, making it so that the barbarian using Onslaught will have the speed bonus but not the damage bonus would be a nice enough solution, yes? *puppy eyes* :wub2:

Oh one more thing, there is a bug regarding the description of Soul Keeper: it says it lasts 30 seconds, while it lasts as it's intented to, 10 seconds. Look at the screen below.

EDIT: Description is not bugged, it's just that I'm kinda sleepy and forgot that the 30 seconds duration refers to the strength debuff, sorry about that. Thank you e30ernest for letting me notice this.

blood-raven

08-10-2010, 08:28 AM

Marksman was made because of higher hits than Hunter AND bigger range so not only bigger range. They should be able to hit a lot harder than a Hunter, but ofcourse even if you hit 300-400 as marks you can die easily by a Hunter with troll when he is to close.

that's my point, a marks should rule over a hunter in fort combat but be weak (and pathetic xD) in open field battle (vs a hunter).

so enough balance there.

warriors are still to hard to face alone, no harm done, and marks where finally able to kill a mage without being semi dead in the proces, well i still got hammered, but i survived, that's something xD.

regards

Pnarpa

08-10-2010, 08:37 AM

e30G

08-10-2010, 08:53 AM

I haven't tested, but perhaps the strength debuff still lasts 30 seconds.

Mikan

08-10-2010, 09:13 AM

I recommend that NGD change Onslaught to the following:
- No allies - No movement speed bonus
- 1 ally +10% movement speed
- 2 allies +20% movement speed
- 3 allies +30% movement speed
- 4 allies +40% movement speed
- 5 allies +50% movement speed (the maximum allowed)

And make it affect the caster as well. This change will prevent its use for PvP only, and make it very war-oriented. The downside is that it will no longer be able to give a single Conj that super boost, but that is probably what NGD prefers.

Kind regards.

Gideon_Slack

08-10-2010, 09:24 AM

If I'm not mistaken, the change to Head of the Pack turns what was a RvR spell into a run-of-the-mill PvP spell. Because HotP scaled with allies nearby, it made the Hunter stay near his group when the fight started.

Perhaps Cold Blood could also scale in the way that HotP did (by allies nearby), but on a percentage basis.

Mikan

08-10-2010, 09:27 AM

AxXxE

08-10-2010, 10:07 AM

most things i like in this update

BUT now warrior especially barbarian sucks at big battles <.<

you have no chance against marksmen, because they evades every hit and spell and if you hit them you make no big dmg <.<

i think the fortbattles will look in future so:
20 marksman/hunters
5 conju
2 warlocks
2 knights
1 barbarian ...

why would no one play barbarian?
- the new onslaught... (can't rush or say "go" to the zerg/crowd)
- low dmg

please give us barbarians the dmg back and the onslaught :/

maybe you increase the passiv dmg spell (sry don't know how the english name is, but the german description is "überwältigende stärke") (now lvl5 = +15%) up to lvl5 = +40% or +50%

greets
Axe der Krieger
(Server Muspell)

Seher

08-10-2010, 10:11 AM

NGD has already stated that they are not nerfing Confuse. They feel the other nerfs were already enough.

Regarding Cold blood: It should be swapped with Strategic position and increased to 15 seconds. Marksman is the offensive class and Hunters are the defensive class. This long history of Hunters being DPS and Marksmen being tanks has to end.

Some other improvements to Marksman offense:
- Increase Death sentence to +25% damage and make it range 35.
- Reduce Parabolic shot to 15% range bonus
- Increase Specialist to 15% like other damage passives, and move it to Aiming replacing the hit chance passive there
- Change Foresight to a fixed range increase: +6 meters on level 1 and up to +10 meters on level 5

With the new shortbow range these changes would help Marksmen more adept at short bows than longs, which I feel is a good change simply because short bows has always been the more offensive (DPS) of the two bow diciplines. The rangers (Hunters) should be more adept at long bows due to their lack of range projection abilities. Remember: Marksmen should not be killing machines from a distance, but they should be killing machines from mid-range, because it is their territory.

The Hunter's ability to fulfill this role instead has lasted too long and it is time for some change.

Kind regards.

Where should a hunter be a killing machine then, if not from mid-range? -.-
Your proposed changes would remove every possibility for hunters to focus on damage. Bye bye, petless hunters.

Oh and remember, hunters lost quite some decent damage, (passive damage,) just removing it without a decent replacement would nerf hunters in fort wars to oblivion. (I don't want to be reduced to caltrops every 3 min, if you know what I mean)

metsie

08-10-2010, 10:23 AM

Where should a hunter be a killing machine then, if not from mid-range? -.-
Your proposed changes would remove every possibility for hunters to focus on damage. Bye bye, petless hunters.

Oh and remember, hunters lost quite some decent damage, (passive damage,) just removing it without a decent replacement would nerf hunters in fort wars to oblivion. (I don't want to be reduced to caltrops every 3 min, if you know what I mean)

Nowhere, why should they be killing machines?

They should be turned into RvsR support class with buffs and stuff like that :lightsabre:

Killing = job of barbs,locks and marks
support = conju,knight,hunter

But for some lamers it's fun to have class that has all the fun that there can be, because they want everything easy? invisibility, high damage, speed, pets, tracking, immunity to normals+spells. That's just stupid to have one class with that many assets.

2 archer classes, they should not do similar stuff. Now it feels like marksmen have nothing unique because hunters will get over their damage too. So marksmen are class that shoots some shitty damage from distance and then dies?

Common skill trees are bad bad thing, they should be compeletely redesigned, or at least have some differences between trees

-Kalid-

08-10-2010, 10:36 AM

Thx alot NGD, this update sounds great, i don't know from where you get such great ideas.

Continue your great work!! ^^

Topogigio_BR

08-10-2010, 10:42 AM

that's my point, a marks should rule over a hunter in fort combat but be weak (and pathetic xD) in open field battle (vs a hunter).

so enough balance there.

warriors are still to hard to face alone, no harm done, and marks where finally able to kill a mage without being semi dead in the process, well i still got hammered, but i survived, that's something xD.

regards

As i said many times Long Bow tree is too powefull, it cuts a lot the benefit of beeing a mark.

Sugestion is cut parabolic to 25% or maybe 20% and add foresight inthe same way.

Also cut eagle eye to 50% and add it to trained eye.
For me Marks dont need exactly to out damage a hunter, but it should have CLEARLY more range and almost dont miss a target.

blood-raven

08-10-2010, 10:45 AM

As i said many times Long Bow tree is too powefull, it cuts a lot the benefit of beeing a mark.

Sugestion is cut parabolic to 25% or maybe 20% and add foresight inthe same way.

Also cut eagle eye to 50% and add it to trained eye.
For me Marks dont need exactly to out damage a hunter, but it should have CLEARLY more range and almost dont miss a target.

i would be ok if this would be implanted, we would finaly have something that hunters don't have (range and hc).

implant this pls:)

regards

Lekarz

08-10-2010, 10:47 AM

Why the hell "increase damage for hunters" ? The problem of this class overpowered is their pet- big atack range of for example Giant Troll. There is no chances versus 4 hunters with their pets. I know you tryied to made hunter loosing pet after "kicking" into camo, but don't make them fast running mini-marksman.
Marksman should be range damage dealer, hunter - scout (who is "eyes of army").

Catelyn

08-10-2010, 10:56 AM

It's great to see that many changes, and finally balance updates.

I have one concern though, confuse will still be the same? I think it needs change regardless of other balance.

On the other hand, sotw+escapist have the same effect then old sotw, if i'm not mistaken. But it can be casted every 60 seconds instead of 180s. 200 more mana, but it's even better then the old (when used in forts for example, all u need is to cast it and jump on wall, shoot targets within the delay without cc spells on you)

With soulkeeper we will have to anticipate and use it early in combat, we will see how it works, but it should work on mobs too, as other has explained.
Without metabolic control, locks will have much more resists. Sultar with it's current implamentation will be useless.
I would prefer to have accurate spells, less resists and no pourcentage of success, at least then it gets to skills, not luck.

Topogigio_BR

08-10-2010, 11:03 AM

I think the changes are nice for hunters, even with the damage bonus.
Marks should have more damage, but not applied to bows to not interfere with balance on hunters, just marks only spells like recharged.

Also with current range on amum, many fights will be done behind 35m, probably marks will make more use of medium and fast bows, making the actual mana cost of recharged really painful.

We really need to decrease Recharged or turn it into a passive.
Also could remove speed malus on focus, as you did to camo, there is no need of speed malus with current speed bonus.
You could also switch focus and recharged in spell trees.

I am also worried about barbs with UM as a mark, meaning i cant outdamage, outrun, cant stop him with cc spells, actually is just sit and die.

Outlander

08-10-2010, 11:06 AM

About Soul keeper (yea again :P) It's not possible to cast it on hunters' pets.

Is this intended to be that way?

AntibioTsu

08-10-2010, 11:16 AM

I am also worried about barbs with UM as a mark, meaning i cant outdamage, outrun, cant stop him with cc spells, actually is just sit and die.

You cant outrun them but you can keep your range and backoff when you see him coming to you. If the barbarian is already close to you that means you failed at keeping your range and should now perish due to that.

Ranged classes should be helpless when a warrior reaches them, because they have the range factor that allows them to attack without making contact. If they completly ignore their role as a ranged attacker then the only option is to die at the hands of the class whose job is to kill whoever he reaches - the Barbarian.

You dont just sit and die because before the barbarian reaches you there's at least 25 meters of distance between you and him that leaves you time to run away. A melee class should always have the upperhand on a 1o1, and regnum should be designed in a fashion so that at least 2 ranged characters are needed to kill a melee character (knowing that there are 2 melee clasess to 4 ranged classes).

Seher

08-10-2010, 11:17 AM

Nowhere, why should they be killing machines?

They should be turned into RvsR support class with buffs and stuff like that :lightsabre:

Killing = job of barbs,locks and marks
support = conju,knight,hunter

Good thought, but where are my support spells? Seems I missed something.

Just coordinating something is plain boring (and something every other class can do as well, by the way, tracking isn't that necessary) and camo corpse completely useless.
And again... being reduced to one spell every 3 minutes (caltrops, stalker) is crap.
Go ahead and post some ideas for support spells, there aren't many reasonable possibilities.

But for some lamers it's fun to have class that has all the fun that there can be, because they want everything easy? invisibility, high damage, speed, pets, tracking, immunity to normals+spells. That's just stupid to have one class with that many assets.

I'd gladly sacrifice invisibility and speed. And pets because they still aren't manageable in fort wars. And by the way, that's what I've done all the time so far. :P (Except for invisibility of course)

2 archer classes, they should not do similar stuff. Now it feels like marksmen have nothing unique because hunters will get over their damage too. So marksmen are class that shoots some shitty damage from distance and then dies?

Highest range is nothing unique?
And by the way, marksmen still outdamage hunters... This spell makes just petless hunters able to compete with hunters with pet. (That's why I think this spell should be disabled when you've got a pet, you may be right for hunters with pet + this spell, though, this spell isn't for hunters with pet, imo)

Gabburtjuh

08-10-2010, 11:21 AM

.
Marksman should be range damage dealer, hunter - scout (who is "eyes of army").

I dare you to fucking let me nerf to someone that can skill camo, track and speed and thats all i would need for my "task" if you think this way is fun to play, go make a hunter and try it ffs.

Lekarz

08-10-2010, 11:37 AM

I dare you to fucking let me nerf to someone that can skill camo, track and speed and thats all i would need for my "task" if you think this way is fun to play, go make a hunter and try it ffs.

At this moment i'm making scout-hunter for my alt. I had 34 but deleted it. Trust me when you are in a team they really want your track, not another damage dealer. Your ambushes/ confuse makes them better group.

Trust me thats annoying when typical noobish hunter atacking you when you're grinding on war zone. Many times when you fight with mob , he is full of fun when he beat even 50lvl (conjurer) using both mob and his overpowered pet + ambush 5lvl. Really fun? Thats a noobish way.

Topogigio_BR

08-10-2010, 11:45 AM

You cant outrun them but you can keep your range and backoff when you see him coming to you. If the barbarian is already close to you that means you failed at keeping your range and should now perish due to that.

Ranged classes should be helpless when a warrior reaches them, because they have the range factor that allows them to attack without making contact. If they completly ignore their role as a ranged attacker then the only option is to die at the hands of the class whose job is to kill whoever he reaches - the Barbarian.

You dont just sit and die because before the barbarian reaches you there's at least 25 meters of distance between you and him that leaves you time to run away. A melee class should always have the upperhand on a 1o1, and regnum should be designed in a fashion so that at least 2 ranged characters are needed to kill a melee character (knowing that there are 2 melee clasess to 4 ranged classes).

Thing is how can i run away if spring has 25% bonus and i have top 10%, none of my cc spells will work if barb has UM active. About keeping it in range, have you see the pathetic damage of a mark? i do 200 in a buffed barb, it means it would take almost 20 shots with a slow bow to kill him, how i suppose to keep in range? The only way now it to cast lightning, hinder and caltrapos, and it means only a delay, not even safety.

Hunter have only 8% speed less than a barb, but they can also slow then down with ensnaring(15%), giving then 7% of advantage against a barb, time enough to camo and go out in safety. Marks dont have all this.

AntibioTsu

08-10-2010, 11:52 AM

Thing is how can i run away if spring has 25% bonus and i have top 10%, none of my cc spells will work if barb has UM active. About keeping it in range, have you see the pathetic damage of a mark? i do 200 in a buffed barb, it means it would take almost 20 shots with a slow bow to kill him, how i suppose to keep in range? The only way now it to cast lightning, hinder and caltrapos, and it means only a delay, not even safety.

Hunter have only 8% speed less than a barb, but they can also slow then down with ensnaring(15%), giving then 7% of advantage against a barb, time enough to camo and go out in safety. Marks dont have all this.

Ask a warlock to cast Slow then. Or you can run (like I said) as soon as you see the barbarian running towards you. Spring is 25% speed for 10 seconds while mobility is 10% for 20 seconds (iirc) which means that if you're running there's no way a barbarian can reach you if you kept the 30 range safety between him and you.

But I'm sure there'll be allies to aid you in a RvR situation that can, for instance, beetle swarm the barbarian. In a game where you have these many classes there musnt be a class that can counter all the other ones: you need to rely on different classes to perform your role. The marksman cannot be able to escape every situation by himself, so he depends on other classes with -speed debuffs (Ensnare Arrow, Slow, Disable Limb, etc) to help him survive.

blood-raven

08-10-2010, 11:57 AM

Ask a warlock to cast Slow then. Or you can run (like I said) as soon as you see the barbarian running towards you. Spring is 25% speed for 10 seconds while mobility is 10% for 20 seconds (iirc) which means that if you're running there's no way a barbarian can reach you if you kept the 30 range safety between him and you.

But I'm sure there'll be allies to aid you in a RvR situation that can, for instance, beetle swarm the barbarian. In a game where you have these many classes there musnt be a class that can counter all the other ones: you need to rely on different classes to perform your role. The marksman cannot be able to escape every situation by himself, so he depends on other classes with -speed debuffs (Ensnare Arrow, Slow, Disable Limb, etc) to help him survive.

that's the big problem, as syrtis is more an angry mob than a cooperating army.
and it's not that ppl tried to change this, it has been atempted many times but syrtis never listens (very frustrating sometimes).

regards

AntibioTsu

08-10-2010, 12:01 PM

that's the big problem, as syrtis is more an angry mob than a cooperating army.
and it's not that ppl tried to change this, it has been atempted many times but syrtis never listens (very frustrating sometimes).

regards

This is a realm problem, not a balance issue. If Syrtis Horus doesnt know how to behave in a war and doesnt prime for teamwork then they're doomed to fail.

Maybe with these changes they'll learn how to play together and help eachother, instead of focusing on pure Damage builds, not investing on Crowd Control to help their mate and rely only on conjurer's Dispels.

The point is, the game must have a little bit of Rock-Paper-Scissors, and no class should be able to always kill the other classes in the case of both players knowing what they're doing (experienced players).

Escapist: new skill that provides high evasion mana: 200-320 – duration: 7-15s – cooldown: 60s

SOTW: mana reduced: 260-420. Cooldown reduced to 60s

Acrobatic: bug corrected. Now the resistance is to magical and physical damage (so it goes through the armor system properly).

Btw NGD, what's with the God-Modes? The archer class is the only one to have this kind of almost complete immunity defense spell, that when combined is just ridiculous to try hitting the archer, which basically leaves players to simply do nothing for 15 seconds.

The Acrobatic change is acceptable: about time archers' defense is no longer as stronger than a tank (even though it still may be...).

Gabburtjuh

08-10-2010, 12:05 PM

At this moment i'm making scout-hunter for my alt. I had 34 but deleted it. Trust me when you are in a team they really want your track, not another damage dealer. Your ambushes/ confuse makes them better group.

Trust me thats annoying when typical noobish hunter atacking you when you're grinding on war zone. Many times when you fight with mob , he is full of fun when he beat even 50lvl (conjurer) using both mob and his overpowered pet + ambush 5lvl. Really fun? Thats a noobish way.

1. im petless
2. ambush4
3. dont fight a mob in conj setup
4. i dont even have fun hunting, im grinding alts/chatting when nothing is happening
5. confuse sucks, id hate to skill it, its the most lame spell of RO
6. not another damage dealer, a scout thats 7% faster and only can track and camo is maybe good for them, but what about the hunter himself, a conjurer feels usefull, a knight feels usefull, they can both skill for dmg to, a hunter that only tracks and hopes his tracks arent bugged, when he cant skill for dmg, since pets are screwed(np with that), you feel useless, trust me, tried full "support hunter"
1. ppl hate you for having lvl 19 tricks
2. You feel utterly useless when you track something, and half of the group needs to fap over 1 rp from the easy mage i tracked while on our way to a fort.

linearguild

08-10-2010, 12:08 PM

that's the big problem, as syrtis is more an angry mob than a cooperating army.
and it's not that ppl tried to change this, it has been atempted many times but syrtis never listens (very frustrating sometimes).

regards

Well, you can't demand balance to compensate for Syrtis that suck.

I also haven't observed any damage increase on my marksman. I think Recharged Arrows got some hidden nerf with the lowered dmg contribution of weapons and items, as its bonus works only on those factors, ignoring the damage from dex. We need some of that damage back or compensation in other areas (as others have already suggested).

Froste

08-10-2010, 12:15 PM

You feel utterly useless when you track something, and half of the group needs to fap over 1 rp from the easy mage i tracked while on our way to a fort.

Then don't announce it.

Seher

08-10-2010, 12:17 PM

1. im petless
2. ambush4
3. dont fight a mob in conj setup
4. i dont even have fun hunting, im grinding alts/chatting when nothing is happening
5. confuse sucks, id hate to skill it, its the most lame spell of RO
6. not another damage dealer, a scout thats 7% faster and only can track and camo is maybe good for them, but what about the hunter himself, a conjurer feels usefull, a knight feels usefull, they can both skill for dmg to, a hunter that only tracks and hopes his tracks arent bugged, when he cant skill for dmg, since pets are screwed(np with that), you feel useless, trust me, tried full "support hunter"
1. ppl hate you for having lvl 19 tricks
2. You feel utterly useless when you track something, and half of the group needs to fap over 1 rp from the easy mage i tracked while on our way to a fort.

Exactly. Support hunters as they are now can be described in one word: Useless. And which spells could you add, so that they'd become useful? Give them heal? lol...

Topogigio_BR

08-10-2010, 12:22 PM

Ask a warlock to cast Slow then. Or you can run (like I said) as soon as you see the barbarian running towards you. Spring is 25% speed for 10 seconds while mobility is 10% for 20 seconds (iirc) which means that if you're running there's no way a barbarian can reach you if you kept the 30 range safety between him and you.

But I'm sure there'll be allies to aid you in a RvR situation that can, for instance, beetle swarm the barbarian. In a game where you have these many classes there musnt be a class that can counter all the other ones: you need to rely on different classes to perform your role. The marksman cannot be able to escape every situation by himself, so he depends on other classes with -speed debuffs (Ensnare Arrow, Slow, Disable Limb, etc) to help him survive.

Maybe if the final version goes as this, would be fair for marks to have more range bonus, and yet an animation for UM.
As you really dont know if a barb casted it or not.

linearguild

08-10-2010, 12:27 PM

Maybe if the final version goes as this, would be fair for marks to have more range bonus, and yet an animation for UM.
As you really dont know if a barb casted it or not.

There is an animation for UM.

Mikan

08-10-2010, 12:28 PM

I will say this clearly so that everyone can understand.

Knight offense is being nerfed to crap in this update if we want to use any defenses.

Conjuror offense is being nerfed and made hard for them to obtain in combination with defenses.

Hunters will get the same treatment. You cannot ask for your class to be killers for anything when you are a DEFENSIVE SUBCLASS. I know you are all PO'ed about what is happening, but guess what - the other classes are too. None of us like being forced into a single role, but that does not mean that you are exempt, especially not when your class has been the biggest, most powerful and frustrating threat in the game for four years straight, and has been repeatedly requested by hundreds of people to be removed entirely!

It's time to get over it if we are to continue forward. If you don't like it , do what the rest of us did when our classes got nerfed to crap - level something else. Because it is unfair to everyone else for you to keep your edge while others suffer.

Now, as hot-headed as it may sound, Hunters just don't seem to be getting the point.

Barbarian - Offensive
Marksman - Offensive
Warlock - Offensive
Conjuror - Defensive/Support
Hunter - Defensive/Support
Knight - Defensive/Support

This is why NGD has ultimately decided not to nerf Confuse, because it is the Hunter's war support tool. If you decide to discard the Hunter's role as a support character, then you damn well better be willing to give up Confuse (and more).

Kind regards.

Lord_Latem

08-10-2010, 12:49 PM

As i said many times Long Bow tree is too powefull, it cuts a lot the benefit of beeing a mark.

Sugestion is cut parabolic to 25% or maybe 20% and add foresight inthe same way.

Also cut eagle eye to 50% and add it to trained eye.
For me Marks dont need exactly to out damage a hunter, but it should have CLEARLY more range and almost dont miss a target.

While I do agree with your statement regarding range and hit chance, I respectfully disagree with marksmen not out damaging a hunter. I feel that a marksman's normal hits, albeit with Rechanged Arrows, should be significantly higher than a hunter's normal hits to compensate for the damage done by a pet, should this be the setup choosen by the hunter.

Zas_

08-10-2010, 12:50 PM

So Escapist cannot be used to detect enemies in a fort now ? (i didn't test on Amun yet). If it is the case, bad move, it was a nice use of this spell, really support.

HOTP was a great group spell due to allies-related bonus, bad move imho.

Range +5 is better.

Kaixo

08-10-2010, 12:58 PM

This is why NGD has ultimately decided not to nerf Confuse, because it is the Hunter's war support tool. If you decide to discard the Hunter's role as a support character, then you damn well better be willing to give up Confuse (and more).

Kind regards.
¿Confuse the hunter's war support tool?
First, is an archer skill, second, in a war it does practically nothing (you are better with area, snare, hotp...) , third is a debuff skill (perhaps for you warlocks are the class that gives more support).
It's only a skill to hunt in mode easy and fuck the 60% or more of the skills in the game. Perhaps people like to use less spells and use practically only normals because a lvl 29 pt casted confuse on you.

Shwish

08-10-2010, 01:00 PM

So Escapist cannot be used to detect enemies in a fort now ? (i didn't test on Amun yet). If it is the case, bad move, it was a nice use of this spell, really support.

i agree that escapist was an extremely useful spell for detecting camouflaged enemies in a fort but i highly doubt that was its intended role. Its an essential spell for fighting a warrior nevertheless but im yet to see what its replacement is like.

i personally welcome any changes made to my chosen class. We're all going to have to learn to adapt to the skills we've been given. Marksman's damage should get fixed soon. if NGD stated that it was increased and it evidently was not, then its some kind of coding error. expect to see it increase by the next phase if not sooner

Raindance

08-10-2010, 01:00 PM

In my opinion Death Sentence could use a little boost, say 5% or 8% (unless like Shwish just mentioned and the damage will be fixed). Though overall I love this stage the same as the other stages. Thanks NGD.

ice_zero_cool

08-10-2010, 01:10 PM

In my opinion Death Sentence could use a little boost, say 5% or 8% (unless like Swish just mentioned and the damage will be fixed). Though overall I love this stage the same as the other stages. Thanks NGD.

Yea. 20% is too less, so how about increasing its damage back to the old 50%, since the defense got fixed now, it shouldn't be that OP as before. Or mb 30% - 35%, so it's worth skilling it again and marks have a nice spell again to increase (their) damage. Either would be fine with me. :)

ice

trulyem

08-10-2010, 01:14 PM

By any chance would Barbarians be renamed to Pussy Wussy, Door Humpers, Bridge Poopers and Save Dancers? Hopefully by stage 6. Please do for clarification to the new players incase they are planning to play this game for a long time.

Thanks NGD.

Zas_

08-10-2010, 01:25 PM

i agree that escapist was an extremely useful spell for detecting camouflaged enemies in a fort but i highly doubt that was its intended role.

Yes, perhaps unintended, but it was the main reason i used it on level 2, to be able to fully check tower and fort in one cast.

NGD: it would be nice to have a spell to detect hidden hunters in a fort, old Escapist was used a lot by marks and hunters for that, while being not dedicated to that (no one will put point in a dedicated spell for that, especially with new PP system).

Topogigio_BR

08-10-2010, 01:29 PM

There is an animation for UM.

Not a constant one, to tell apart when a barb is with UM and when he is not.

Znurre

08-10-2010, 01:30 PM

Not a constant one, to tell apart when a barb is with UM and when he is not.There is, a skull above his head, though it's hard to see especially when Thirst for blood is activated at the same time.

AntibioTsu

08-10-2010, 01:32 PM

There is, a skull above his head, though it's hard to see especially when Thirst for blood is activated at the same time.

Not to mention that no animation is seen on a character if he cast his buffs out of line of sight.

Topogigio_BR

08-10-2010, 01:35 PM

There is, a skull above his head, though it's hard to see especially when Thirst for blood is activated at the same time.

So put a big skull. ENOURMOUS SKULL. Zarkit sized skull. :beerchug:
I swear i never saw it, maybe because i dont use shader, just fixed.

Zas_

08-10-2010, 01:37 PM

Not to mention that no animation is seen on a character if he cast his buffs out of line of sight.

Yes, this is a old very boring bug, reported many times, and still not fixed.

Let's hope NGD will do something about it.

Topogigio_BR

08-10-2010, 01:40 PM

While I do agree with your statement regarding range and hit chance, I respectfully disagree with marksmen not out damaging a hunter. I feel that a marksman's normal hits, albeit with Rechanged Arrows, should be significantly higher than a hunter's normal hits to compensate for the damage done by a pet, should this be the setup choosen by the hunter.

Lord i didnt say hunters should have more damage than mark.
I am just saying for me marks characteristic should be range and hit chance, much more than damage. I would be very satisfied if i had same damage as a petless hunter but lot of range and hit chance. Especially hit chance enough for almost dont be evaded, i think that should be the real focus on Marks, basically upgrading trained eyes and focus.

Comp

08-10-2010, 01:40 PM

All...

Before people FREEEEK out about this new "OP" Hunters skill - let me tell you why it isn't OP.

Here's the skill:

Cold Blood (Level 5 mind you)
Duration: 10s
Mana Cost: 300 mana
Cool Down: 60s
Damage: +130%

Now - I've played this out many ways last night and this morning. In almost every situation (unless I'm ganking mobs) I get just a couple shots off.

In truth - this spell really needs to be modified a bit. I suggest:

Duration: 20s
Mana Cost: 200
Cool Down: 60s
Damage: +100%

To actually make it usable. There's not many situations right now that make it usable unless you ganking someone out of camo

Darcyeti

08-10-2010, 01:50 PM

So put a big skull. ENOURMOUS SKULL. Zarkit sized skull. :beerchug:
I swear i never saw it, maybe because i dont use shader, just fixed.

It does not depend on fixed pipeline but on "particle effects activated" (don't know how it's called in the english version of the options)

Topogigio_BR

08-10-2010, 02:21 PM

It does not depend on fixed pipeline but on "particle effects activated" (don't know how it's called in the english version of the options)

I have it activated darcyeti, but still never saw a barb using this skull.

Topogigio_BR

08-10-2010, 02:22 PM

UmarilsStillHere

08-10-2010, 02:45 PM

Dont like the new escapist, its basically a flip side of Sotw now.

It would seem if anything my marks damage went down more.

Topogigio_BR

08-10-2010, 02:55 PM

Dont like the new escapist, its basically a flip side of Sotw now.

It would seem if anything my marks damage went down more.

AS i see Sotw resist spells and escapist evades normals, it seems 2 spells for 2 different purpose.

UmarilsStillHere

08-10-2010, 02:57 PM

Its 2 spells yes, but its basically the same old effect (god mode vs normals instead of god mode vs spells) so now archers can do to everyone else what they have been doing to mages forever.

Comp

08-10-2010, 02:57 PM

AS i see Sotw resist spells and escapist evades normals, it seems 2 spells for 2 different purpose.

Yes - and both are WICKED expensive and too costly to cast at the same time - and FAR too costly to have at lvl 5

UmarilsStillHere

08-10-2010, 02:58 PM

They are both less expensive than the current live server sotw.

Shwish

08-10-2010, 02:59 PM

AS i see Sotw resist spells and escapist evades normals, it seems 2 spells for 2 different purpose.

i personally wouldn't use this spell. ive been doing fine so far without a "resist all normals" spell and skill points are going to be rare with the new skill progression system.

i use sotw to protect me from cc's. everything else i can tank

Topogigio_BR

08-10-2010, 03:15 PM

Topogigio_BR

08-10-2010, 03:16 PM

i personally wouldn't use this spell. ive been doing fine so far without a "resist all normals" spell and skill points are going to be rare with the new skill progression system.

i use sotw to protect me from cc's. everything else i can tank

even if it work like this, the lower mana cost is still an upgrade, as umaril said.

Topogigio_BR

08-10-2010, 03:21 PM

Yes - and both are WICKED expensive and too costly to cast at the same time - and FAR too costly to have at lvl 5

The new escapist can be much like Sotw, but i still think it fits as a glove to the evasion tree.

Kyrottimus

08-10-2010, 03:44 PM

Its 2 spells yes, but its basically the same old effect (god mode vs normals instead of god mode vs spells) so now archers can do to everyone else what they have been doing to mages forever.

Not to mention hunters will be able to roam in packs, jumping anyone with all the tools needed to win 100% of the time.

Near immunity to all spells
Near immunity to all normals
Immunity to everything if losing the fight (Low Profile)

and now uber damage in those short-spurts with Cold Blood.

Methinks some little bird who happens to love playing hunter the most is poisoning the ears of the balance team.

For example, notice how Barbarians in the past few "stages" have had nothing but more and more limitations heaped upon them. Not one spell improved or changed to add more choices on how to play. Just more limitations meaning more players of that class are forced into less-inspired, cookie-cutter builds.

But hunters lost some damage (which they got a good amount of it back now) and then to counter that they get the new Escapist and Cold Blooded. Barbarians did receive a slight increase in damage in stage 5, I really must acknowledge that. But in reality, using the same build from 4 in stage 5, my base damage went up 4 points. I think NGD might have under-emphasized the slightness of the increase.

So even though things change a bit for hunters, these new abilities open the door (wide) for hunters to pretty much build for any situation. I can already think how I'd build my hunter with these. More options = more fun.

That's just not the case for barbs. It will be far easier for me to lead charges on my hunter now, than my barb.

These updates have done nothing but limit barbarians and their abilities. They've reduced their versatility and minimized the variety and diversity of barbarians as a class.

Only a fool would believe that Barbarians did not need improvement on some level. If there have been any improvements, spell-tweaks, mana reductions, or overall positive changes to Barbarians to date, I have not seen any. Not a single one. Only the opposite. Only nerfs.

Someone, please, list one positive change to barbarians in this whole series of testing stages, using the current live servers as a starting point and the Stage 5 on Amun now as the direction of NGD's intent.

Someone, please, enlighten me.

theotherhiveking

08-10-2010, 03:55 PM

I think mobility should be changed to it provides max bonus on all levels, but the duration increases, like this.

10% 10sec
10% 12sec
10% 14sec
10% 17sec
10% 20sec.

This way mid level people can actually use it, the difference between the skill levels becomes very obvious, which should encourage people to put a kill point or two there instead of ignoring it or maxing it completely.

Klutu

08-10-2010, 03:59 PM

AntibioTsu

08-10-2010, 05:00 PM

This is not really true Tsuku, because mobility has 60s cooldown while spring has 25s. So a barb can easily cast 2 times spring while a archer can cast it only once, so you have at least 15% speed bonus over a mark for 20s.

And I repeat, you have time to react as you see the warrior is running to you; that's the chance you have to start running away aswell. If you're alone, then too bad, next time bring someone with you as this is a RvR game.

Warriors need to be faster and reach their target, otherwise it's just silly to play a melee class in this game.

Topogigio_BR

08-10-2010, 05:12 PM

And I repeat, you have time to react as you see the warrior is running to you; that's the chance you have to start running away aswell. If you're alone, then too bad, next time bring someone with you as this is a RvR game.

Warriors need to be faster and reach their target, otherwise it's just silly to play a melee class in this game.

As game is now a hunter can avoid a barb doing ensnaring him and camo.
A mark just cant do it. if you see a mark and try to run you will be catch, if you stay you wont have a chance.

For me UM should not have protection against freeze, this freeze spell is almost used only by marks. locks have enough points on mental to not be worried about freeze.

Gabburtjuh

08-10-2010, 05:12 PM

I will say this clearly so that everyone can understand.

I do see the point, but even for these roles there isnt just 1 setup you can use, hunters that want to do their job described by NGD, it means 19 scout, 19 tricks, 19 in evasion/sb, depending if you want to survive after doing anything of be suicidal with rep shot, either way, 2 options, where the ngd way would be max sb, because that fits more in their "role", stop freaking forcing is into a role, remove the pet tree, and replace it, this isnt a loose suggestion, im making a replacing tree for hunters, with something to help grind without pet, and without trying to OP them.

@NGD, please define your current view on hunters "role" in RvR, so i can use that in that tree, since you seem to switch between assasin and scouter/trickstar. (if you dont answer this, thats for me just another sign of you only wanting our opinion for the show or to do show adjustments in your idea of balance)

Gabburtjuh

08-10-2010, 05:22 PM

i see so much ppl complaining about barbs, while barbs got improved(they dont get thesame dmg in short time, can be bad, but not for lenghtening up the fights, buffs while need longer dura and lower mana, agreed on that) and only marks(5 range vs like 40% dmg reduction and maybe 10% more as) and hunters nerfed to shit, maybe needed, maybe overdone(we even lost our only RvR thing, hotp, for a 10 sec 300mana cost buff that accounts for maybe 200-250dmg on a slow bow, couldnt test to much yet, kept getting killed while i said i wanted to test something) and about new escapist+sotw, buff up those, acro+evasive tactis+cold blood, thats a whole mana pool for an average hunter, and it doesnt do nearly as much as such a amount does for a barb, i got over 1700 mana in amun, and i had 300 left.

AntibioTsu

08-10-2010, 05:33 PM

For me UM should not have protection against freeze, this freeze spell is almost used only by marks. locks have enough points on mental to not be worried about freeze.

If UM wouldn't resist against freeze then ofc Warlocks would start spamming it on Barbs (it's 7 sec on lvl 1 and 15 sec on lvl 5) so 3 lvl 5 Freezes are enough to completly screw UM.

I'll say it again - for a barbarian to reach you he has to pass over your army's warriors *and* choose you over mages; And then again, UM is 45 seconds at lvl 5, which means they can only cast spring twice (which is often lvl 4, +20% speed) which for me doesnt seem enough to keep up with a marksman using Mobility (usually lvl 5, 10%) and 30 meters away from a warrior + you can buy time with Sotw and the new Escapist, 15 secs, so it leaves only 30 seconds left on UM for the barb to react, if those havent been spent already while getting near you.

Topogigio_BR

08-10-2010, 05:40 PM

If UM wouldn't resist against freeze then ofc Warlocks would start spamming it on Barbs (it's 7 sec on lvl 1 and 15 sec on lvl 5) so 3 lvl 5 Freezes are enough to completly screw UM.

I'll say it again - for a barbarian to reach you he has to pass over your army's warriors *and* choose you over mages; And then again, UM is 45 seconds at lvl 5, which means they can only cast spring twice (which is often lvl 4, +20% speed) which for me doesnt seem enough to keep up with a marksman using Mobility (usually lvl 5, 10%) and 30 meters away from a warrior + you can buy time with Sotw and the new Escapist, 15 secs, so it leaves only 30 seconds left on UM for the barb to react, if those havent been spent already while getting near you.

You just forget 14s with +35% speed of ons, as you said this is a RvR game.
And so you are not dead if a barb pick other victim if he picks you you are dead.
And also if a mark is alone and see a barb he is dead, no matter what you do.
I think this is why ppl blame hunters for such a long time isnt it? But hunters were made to do that, not barbs.

AntibioTsu

08-10-2010, 05:47 PM

You just forget 14s with +35% speed of ons, as you said this is a RvR game.
And so you are not dead if a barb pick other victim if he picks you you are dead.
And also if a mark is alone and see a barb he is dead, no matter what you do.
I think this is why ppl blame hunters for such a long time isnt it? But hunters were made to do that, not barbs.

Well you can have +35% speed for 14s aswell;

If a barb picks me I'll Beetle him, Mindpush and buy some time while my allies attack him;

Why would a marks be alone if he knows there are hunters (and speedy barbarians) roaming the WZ?;

Hunters still have the upperhand at catching people... just now they cant catch people that simply cross their line of sight. It's the same with Barbarians, as they can't simply catch anyone they want with that ease.

The point is: you let a warrior get to you, you failed at using your skills to keep him away, you die - why should everyone be able to survive against warriors, so that their lives become miserable for not being able to reach the enemy, keep him close and kill?

Topogigio_BR

08-10-2010, 05:50 PM

Well you can have +35% speed for 14s aswell;

If a barb picks me I'll Beetle him, Mindpush and buy some time while my allies attack him;

Why would a marks be alone if he knows there are hunters (and speedy barbarians) roaming the WZ?;

Hunters still have the upperhand at catching people... just now they cant catch people that simply cross their line of sight. It's the same with Barbarians, as they can't simply catch anyone they want with that ease.

The point is: you let a warrior get to you, you failed at using your skills to keep him away, you die - why should everyone be able to survive against warriors, so that their lives become miserable for not being able to reach the enemy, keep him close and kill?
The point is why should a barb should be impossible only for marks to stop, while all other classes has ways to do it?

jaeofsyrtis

08-10-2010, 05:55 PM

Well you can have +35% speed for 14s aswell;

If a barb picks me I'll Beetle him, Mindpush and buy some time while my allies attack him;

Why would a marks be alone if he knows there are hunters (and speedy barbarians) roaming the WZ?;

Well then give me those spells :) id love to have them. Why wouldnt a marks be on his own? You have to travel a lot in this game and usually you wont be travelling with a partner why should it mean if we come across a barb it is more then likely we will die, to me that is not balance.

Comp

08-10-2010, 05:56 PM

Well you can have +35% speed for 14s aswell;

If a barb picks me I'll Beetle him, Mindpush and buy some time while my allies attack him;

Why would a marks be alone if he knows there are hunters (and speedy barbarians) roaming the WZ?;

Hunters still have the upperhand at catching people... just now they cant catch people that simply cross their line of sight. It's the same with Barbarians, as they can't simply catch anyone they want with that ease.

The point is: you let a warrior get to you, you failed at using your skills to keep him away, you die - why should everyone be able to survive against warriors, so that their lives become miserable for not being able to reach the enemy, keep him close and kill?

You have the right frame of mind...people need to think more in terms of what the "team" can do rather than what an individual sees during a 1v1 right.

AntibioTsu

08-10-2010, 05:57 PM

The point is why should a barb should be impossible only for marks to stop, while all other classes has ways to do it?

Because it's their weakness.

Why does dizzy affects warlocks so much when every other class can cope it up with normal hits?

Why should support conjurers be completly screwed up when Confuse touches them?

Why is the barbarian the only class that must have a buff (UM) to fight properly, being spammed with CC to death if he doesnt do so?

Every class has a weakness - it's up to teamwork to overcome those difficulties and achieve combat perfection. If you want to go play a class without flaws, I dont know what I can do for you.

UmarilsStillHere

08-10-2010, 06:03 PM

The point is why should a barb should be impossible only for marks to stop, while all other classes has ways to do it?

You have slow down spells such as Lightning arrow/caltrops a cannot attack spell (stun fist) so it is not 'impossibe' for you to outlast Um.

And as we are looking at this in the very smallest rvr way 2v2 (since you say the barb will have ons I assume there are 2 barbs, since it dosnt effect caster) so you could have a barb with you to deal out damage, or a warlock to buy time or a knight to significantly lower the barbs damage etc etc ...

2v2 is to small for balance anyway, the smallest group balance should be worked with is 6v6 with one of every class. In which case your group has all the tools in the world to stop a barb.

Topogigio_BR

08-10-2010, 06:36 PM

You have slow down spells such as Lightning arrow/caltrops a cannot attack spell (stun fist) so it is not 'impossibe' for you to outlast Um.

And as we are looking at this in the very smallest rvr way 2v2 (since you say the barb will have ons I assume there are 2 barbs, since it dosnt effect caster) so you could have a barb with you to deal out damage, or a warlock to buy time or a knight to significantly lower the barbs damage etc etc ...

2v2 is to small for balance anyway, the smallest group balance should be worked with is 6v6 with one of every class. In which case your group has all the tools in the world to stop a barb.
In this case scenario umaril you are again reducing marks to a support only class, as much ppl in this game cant deal with marks doing even 1/4 of a barbs damage.
So marks should only dizzy the locks with bows, and try to slow down barbs with lightning.
I can deal with the fact that marks dont have enough speed to run from a barb, if i have enough damage to kill one without needing 20 shots.

_Enio_

08-10-2010, 06:38 PM

ngd just pushed the ratio towards melee a bit now. Created more situations you cannot counter well. The dynamics in fight remained untouched. The barb still doesnt need any brain to win or lose while approaching a target. He remains without influence on it. Sounds fun eh? for sure..

theotherhiveking

08-10-2010, 06:45 PM

Maybe you should change UM instead, providing full inmunity for short times(~10), with a lower cooldown, casting and cost.

So (at least the barbarian) as a way to 'counter' stuff, and the other guys dont need to outlast anything.

We all know UM is a shitty skill, sure, the effects are great, but the effect, the huge cooldowns and casting just encourage you to use it , charge, hit something twice and back off to wait for the skill to be available again...
It just encourages passive and sluggish gameplay.

Plus, cc arent half as lethal now with the new damages.

Kyrottimus

08-10-2010, 06:49 PM

...The barb still doesnt need any brain to win or lose while approaching a target. He remains without influence on it.

+1

You'll get no arguments from me on that one. There are so few options to play as a barb.

You either play one way, and might do ok if the RNG is on his side. Or you can play any other possible way and die horribly every single time. That points to a great disparity in versatility and functional, tactical purpose in the class, IMO.

UmarilsStillHere

08-10-2010, 06:56 PM

reducing marks to a support only class

Chilko not long ago said something to this effect (cba to go dig up the acctual quote)
Marks should be ranged support, not long range killing machines

Marks are a supporting part of an army, not a killing machine, you can skill in a damage/cc-support way to play well as part of a group. Or you can keep trying to play something which your class is not, a solo single target nuke machine.

Yes in 1v1 vs certain class's you will struggle, but who dosnt? Once you start working with other class's in RvR you are fine.

In the current balance ranged damage is to high, and the 'CC-support' thing gets lost because one or two ranged class can not only hold, but kill a target before the barb gets any of his own hits in.

A barb needs UM to get anywhere near a ranged class. If you can kill a barb without him ever getting near you then he has no impact on the fight whatsoever, he may as well just stand still and save you running about a bit. So giving yet move counters to UM is a big fat no. We already get spammed with beetle and slow downs without letting marks and locks freeze us as well.

With alternative for UM or otherways to reach a ranged class it wouldent be so bad. But for now this is out only tool to stop us becoming the plaything of ranged CC in solo situations.

Topogigio_BR

08-10-2010, 06:56 PM

Topogigio_BR

08-10-2010, 07:07 PM

Chilko not long ago said something to this effect (cba to go dig up the acctual quote)

Marks are a supporting part of an army, not a killing machine, you can skill in a damage/cc-support way to play well as part of a group. Or you can keep trying to play something which your class is not, a solo single target nuke machine.

Yes in 1v1 vs certain class's you will struggle, but who dosnt? Once you start working with other class's in RvR you are fine.

In the current balance ranged damage is to high, and the 'CC-support' thing gets lost because one or two ranged class can not only hold, but kill a target before the barb gets any of his own hits in.

A barb needs UM to get anywhere near a ranged class. If you can kill a barb without him ever getting near you then he has no impact on the fight whatsoever, he may as well just stand still and save you running about a bit. So giving yet move counters to UM is a big fat no. We already get spammed with beetle and slow downs without letting marks and locks freeze us as well.

With alternative for UM or otherways to reach a ranged class it wouldent be so bad. But for now this is out only tool to stop us becoming the plaything of ranged CC

So give us means to do support, instead of being the most mana consumable in game, and again support classes should have strong defense, is the same way with conjus and knights, if want us to be support give us all support tools.

But stay in the middles without having enough damage to be an attack class and not enoguh defense and mana to be support class is just unacceptable.

Kyrottimus

08-10-2010, 07:18 PM

So give us means to do support, instead of being the most mana consumable in game

Having both a 50 barb and 50 marks and having used them both plenty in war, believe me when I say that Barbs are by far the most mana-consuming class, bar none, when comparing most functional average class builds.

It takes an average barb 70-80% of his mana pool alone simply to fuel all his buffs. Factor in high-mana attacks and cc's and it is very possible a barb is completely out of mana after he fully buffs and gets off two attack spells.

That's why barbs, if they usually vie for max effectiveness (with both offensive/defensive buffs), have to sacrifice pretty much all of their mana in one sitting.

UmarilsStillHere

08-10-2010, 07:27 PM

But stay in the middles without having enough damage to be an attack class and not enoguh defense and mana to be support class is just unacceptable.

Acrobatic, evasive tactics, strategic, sotw ... This is not enough defence?

Etheral and Arcania are decent offence. And your normals (considering the range) are good without being ott.

Topogigio_BR

08-10-2010, 07:28 PM

Having both a 50 barb and 50 marks and having used them both plenty in war, believe me when I say that Barbs are by far the most mana-consuming class, bar none, when comparing most functional average class builds.

It takes an average barb 70-80% of his mana pool alone simply to fuel all his buffs. Factor in high-mana attacks and cc's and it is very possible a barb is completely out of mana after he fully buffs and gets off two attack spells.

That's why barbs, if they usually vie for max effectiveness (with both offensive/defensive buffs), have to sacrifice pretty much all of their mana in one sitting.

But you are suppose to atack kyro. Problem is if marks could have a really good atack a kiling machine from distance as some said i wouldnt mind of spending all my mana.

But if i should have to support i need more mana to actually support. What i am really pissed of is not having one nor the other, and ppl saying that it should be that way.

theotherhiveking

08-10-2010, 07:28 PM

I think the main problem with the barb is that the skill are:

Overly powerful, passive, expensive buffs. (Do hit this to hit for decent damage the next 40 seconds, hurr hurr, or even misleading: +x% damage bonus? Not true, half of our skills are like this.
Normal hits with a added effect that its exactly the same for every skill.
Useless:+50 miss chance or the whopping 30% hit chance buff, rend (spend 240 mana to take away 240 mana, likely less.. ewww), spiritual blow (we are the faster class now...), that skill that takes away some evade chance... pffff.
Wacky, beast attack is worse than normal attacks until lvl 4, and has a 50% chance to apply a totally OP crippling dizzy.

Fulminating could totally be awesome if it wasnt because of the 1sec casting time, our range even got reduced, i tried and its impossible to cast.

I have to admit that all the skills look useful compared to what hunters have on Ra.

UmarilsStillHere

08-10-2010, 07:32 PM

Those +100%s are indeed false, since it only counts wep damage and totaly ignores stats/buffs. Meaning most of the time 100% damage is less than a buffed-normal hit, leading to more normal hit spam and less skill use.

_Enio_

08-10-2010, 07:38 PM

Having both a 50 barb and 50 marks and having used them both plenty in war, believe me when I say that Barbs are by far the most mana-consuming class, bar none, when comparing most functional average class builds.

It takes an average barb 70-80% of his mana pool alone simply to fuel all his buffs. Factor in high-mana attacks and cc's and it is very possible a barb is completely out of mana after he fully buffs and gets off two attack spells.

That's why barbs, if they usually vie for max effectiveness (with both offensive/defensive buffs), have to sacrifice pretty much all of their mana in one sitting.

The mana problem with marks is thy dont have mana reg in combat due to recharged costing mana per normal hit.

The mana problem with barbs is their buffs take such amounts of mana that theres not much left to use on tools.

How much mana you consume does greatly vary on your playstyle and situation, theres no need to name one "most" consuming class.
Id still pick my marks in a fort war when i had to, but you can play a marks easily in a way to not use as much, however the mana is always going down while fighting, thats marks specific.

Gideon_Slack

08-10-2010, 07:38 PM

After several pvp's with Archers

A Hunter needs escapist to be able to take a Barb on - since they don't have dominate speed anymore it's easy game for a barb to kill a hunter

Escapist doesn't work anything like Sotw in terms of success

Remember old sotw wasn't op because of the Resistance to Spells & Normals - it was the speed that put it over the edge

Hunters have no speed anymore

With Sotw Escapist Cold Blooded Tricks Ensare - a hunter has to learn to conserve there mana if they want to win a fight. simply buffing Sotw Escapist & Cold blooded right off the start of a fight will get them killed

This is why Hunters are complaining so much about this update. It changes the fundamental way the class is played.

It would be like saying Barbs no longer have to rely on high offense to win, but instead defensive buffs. People would rightly go ballistic -- that's no longer a Barbarian, the class they signed up to play.

Same with Hunters having speed taken away and replaced with purely defensive buffs like SotW and Escapist (which were once both speed buffs).

Like has been said elsewhere, those who view Regnum as an E-sport will just find a build that works, even if it's not consistent with the class' identity. But those who like the "virtual world" aspect are left wondering what happened.

Topogigio_BR

08-10-2010, 07:47 PM

Acrobatic, evasive tactics, strategic, sotw ... This is not enough defence?

Etheral and Arcania are decent offence. And your normals (considering the range) are good without being ott.

compare it with ao1, steel skin energy barrier and some others to see is not good defense if you act like a support class. Plus all this is archer class the only good defense spell for marks is strategic position and still is far less than other support classes.

Topogigio_BR

08-10-2010, 07:51 PM

The mana problem with marks is thy dont have mana reg in combat due to recharged costing mana per normal hit.

The mana problem with barbs is their buffs take such amounts of mana that theres not much left to use on tools.

How much mana you consume does greatly vary on your playstyle and situation, theres no need to name one "most" consuming class.
Id still pick my marks in a fort war when i had to, but you can play a marks easily in a way to not use as much, however the mana is always going down while fighting, thats marks specific.
Agree with you enio, i can deal with having high mana cost for beeing a damage class. What i can deal is having high mana cost for beeing a support class. And by the way where are those so called support spells for marks. The only one i see is lightening.

Topogigio_BR

08-10-2010, 08:03 PM

If marks should be support than give more damage to hunter, for they to be the attack class of archers.
But probably same ppl will be against it.

chilko

08-10-2010, 08:27 PM

Like has been said elsewhere, those who view Regnum as an E-sport will just find a build that works, even if it's not consistent with the class' identity. But those who like the "virtual world" aspect are left wondering what happened.

This is just not true... as game developers we are more interested in creating a coherent fantasy and keeping with player expectations than mathematical perfection.

We are trying to make the hunter class something that is more resembling of its actual leit motif class (ranger, scout, assassin) not a god like mess (that has the best defense, invisibility and also may carry a pet).

Topogigio_BR

08-10-2010, 08:44 PM

theotherhiveking

08-10-2010, 08:44 PM

Are there still plans to add crossbows?

I was dissapointed when i seen than marksmen had more in common with mages than with war engineers :(, no mechanical warfare at all.

Kyrottimus

08-10-2010, 09:26 PM

This is just not true... as game developers we are more interested in creating a coherent fantasy and keeping with player expectations than mathematical perfection.

We are trying to make the hunter class something that is more resembling of its actual leit motif class (ranger, scout, assassin) not a god like mess (that has the best defense, invisibility and also may carry a pet).

I agree with you 100% (or +100%, depending on who is doing the math xD)

Seriously, I think that archers in general needed a lot of scrutiny in regards to their base attributes. Hunters especially needed a reformat. And so far, I think the general direction for them is better.

While no two people will ever see 100% eye to eye on everything, in this update, this instance regarding hunters, after playing mine a bit, I am overall feeling it will be a step in the right direction for balance and for hunters as a whole.

Regarding Marksman, I think (if in the near future, after hunters, you put your tweaking-caps on to focus on them), they need some scrutiny as well--in the regard of "making this class more fun to play". For starters, their mana-consumption should be looked at as well as some of their sub-class specific abilities.

I also hope you're not done with Barbs (or knights too, for that matter).

I would be remiss to hang up my (biased) position as an advocate for Barbarians (and warriors in general), but I do have to recognize improvements when I see them, and regarding Hunter, I see steps in the right direction. If hunters will truly have to choose between using a pet and using camo, then so far the balance feels right for them. I am a little tentative regarding the loss of their speed. I still would return old escapist to its former function.

Yttrium

08-10-2010, 09:29 PM

Same with Hunters having speed taken away and replaced with purely defensive buffs like SotW and Escapist (which were once both speed buffs)

I don't know if you remember playing a hunter before onslaught was nerfed, but it was a lot more fun to be a hunter when barbarians were dangerous. As it stands now on Amun, barbarians can catch hunters again. This is a good addition; hunters shouldn't only have to worry about enemy hunters when running around the warzone.

Since you're a fort-hunter, you're probably used to attacking out of camo and using your speed to get away. You have been given plenty of tools to attempt the same thing: low profile, sotw, escapist, ambush, dist shot, caltrops, hinder, etc. All you need to do is not use all your mana and you have a chance at a hit and run.

I'll guess that you currently have max mobility and max wild spirit so that no one can catch you. I agree that this is fun, but it is completely unfair that you're able to approach the battle unseen, attack, then get away without any risk of being killed.

We are trying to make the hunter class something that is more resembling of its actual leit motif class (ranger, scout, assassin) not a god like mess (that has the best defense, invisibility and also may carry a pet).

If you want to give hunters some love to take the sting out of the update, many would love to have tracking fixed (so that it at least shows the closest enemies instead of the farthest.)