Balance Update 2011 - Stage 1 - Initial Discussion

[chilko]

Balance Update: Crowd Controls

Crowd control skills are an important part of combat strategy both for PVP and RVR. Even though all clases have different variations of CC skills, some of their possible combinations generate a great deal of frustrations for Regnum players.

Among the different kinds of CCs, we believe that "knock down" is the most powerful. Not Only these skills leave the target without movement, attacking and casting, but also vulnerable to damage.

For this new balance iteration we will try not to modify a great deal of skills but to adjust a small set of them so we can observe the results in real gameplay conditions. By doing this, the analysis period should be shorter (less modified variables to take into account) and corrections that may arise should be easier to implement.

In this stage we will focus only on CC Skills with a single target.

Considering the above, and after studying both the game and the requests on the fórum, these are the proposed changes to be included in the future version.

Please read all the changes for all the classes before stating an opinion as all of the decisions are intertwined.


Class: Warrior (Barbs & Knights)

The damage that Barbarians can do is high. We don’t believe that the issue is with the damage but with the fact that they have 2 Knocks (feint and kick). The ability to combine both skills creates the opportunity for a barbarían, to eliminate its opponent without a chance to get up.

Both of these skills are part of the “Tactics” discipline, and we don’t want to affect the Knight with this change so we will do the following modification:


Feint: moved to the “vanguard” -knight only- discipline to replace “intimidate”
Intimidate: moved to the “Tactics” discipline instead of “Kick”
Kick: Moved to the 1st place of the discipline in place of feint


We’ll have to do minor adjustments to the mana consumption and/or duration of these skills because of the change of place in the discipline. Although Barbarians will lose one of their CC skills, they will earn a slow skill that will allow them to reach their enemies.

 
Clase: Archer (Hunters and Marksmen)

The tactical situation between Archers and Warriors should play around the difference of range. In normal conditions a warrior that reaches melee range should have a positional advantage.
Because of the different CCs and “counter damage” available in the “Tricks” discipline This theoretical situation does not happen as often as we would like.
The following changes will be introduced with the intention of revert this. siguientes cambios serán introducidos con la intención de revertir la situación mencionada.


Ambush: The range of this spell will be reduced to melee range. This will allow archers to have a CC suited for melee classes (so to gain range for a brief period of time) but not against other ranged classes.
Stunning Fist: the effect “Cannot attack” will be replaced either by “Stun” or “cannot cast” (please let us know what you think)



Class: Mages (Warlocks y Conjurer)

Based on the previous explanations we propose the following changes:


Will Domain: this skill is going to be replaced by "Mummify".
Mummify: transforms the objective into a mummy showering its movements. Reduces movement speed and attack speed.



Subclass: Masksman

We have read many posts about this subclass being OP. We think that this issue is much more related o CCs than damage. Marksmen have a great amount and diversity of long range control skills that allows them to “keep range” all the time.
The combination of said CCs give them an edge against melee classes that need to reach them in order to fight.

This subclass has two CC skills that include damage, Winter Stroke and Burst of wind (cannot be stopped by “divine intervention” hurting team-play)
Also, after the last balance update mana regeneration was increased and it may be too high for this class (both for PVP and RVR)


Burst of Wind: damage will be removed.
Mana regen: slightly reduced during combat (we’ll add feedback on GUI while “in combat” status)


We wanted to have an initial discussion about these changes before we upload to Amun. Please try to explain yourselves and maintain a constructive thread.

[HidraA]

Feint: moved to the “vanguard” -knight only- discipline to replace “intimidate”
Intimidate: moved to the “Tactics” discipline instead of “Kick”
Kick: Moved to the 1st place of the discipline in place of feint


Best decission ever.



Subclass: Masksman
We have read many posts about this subclass being OP. We think that this issue is much more related o CCs than damage.

Agree with this too.


Burst of wind (cannot be stopped by “divine intervention” hurting team-play)


This will give lots of advantage to warlocks.Results are predictive.Revers..lots of marks complain by meteor spam from warlock side.
But i a gree with change because tired of warlocks complaint about Birst of Wind.


Also, after the last balance update mana regeneration was increased and it may be too high for this class (both for PVP and RVR)

I remeber days when all ppl complaint about lack of mana ..are wee going to the begin?But ok lets give a try.Lack of conj in game due of hard grinding will advantage ppl that complaint about OP of marks.

[theotherhiveking]

im kind of worried about hunters, as they relied a lot on ambush. But i dont know if you have anything more planed for them, so..

I like the initiative, CC made the game extremely frustrating.

[Mattdoesrock]

First of all, wow. Wow wow wow wow. I wasn't expecting this.

On paper, these all sound like good ideas. I look forward to testing! The CC changes to Marks sound fine to me - but the change to Ambush will hurt Hunters much more, which is not needed.


On another note, I hope that in the later stages of balance you will take a good look at Knight speed. With the removal of Spring (and soon the implecation of another slow) Knights have many mobility problems. May I suggest removing the speed penalty on Defensive Support or giving them back spring.


Also, please, do something about the saves. :ohill:

[-Logan-]

I'm going to talk specifically about the knockdowns right now.

Call me crazy (My main class is a barbarian), but I don't think that barbarians should have any knockdowns whatsoever. Debuffs, yes, moving Intimidate was an alright choice, but I still can't make a definite assumption on that now either.

I say this because I believe that in the case of barbarians, their role is damage, not paralyzing the enemy and at the same time dealing lethal damage. Having just one knockdown doesn't change the fact that a barbarian can still easily kill a mage. This is a RvR game, not a PvP game, so by all means, if you want knockdown on a target, then it's my belief that one of the other 5 classes can do it for you and you can move on from there. Again, this isn't a solo game.

Ambush, I'm not sure what to say. With the way positioning is I feel that this isn't going to be a good change either. If you were so fixed on nerfing it, then you could at least made it half range or something lower, but not melee. So now we have 3 melee knockdowns and once again we're killing diversity among skills.

I absolutely do not agree with changing Will Domain either.

All in all, I'm still rather disappointed with how you've addressed the changes to knockdowns. In my honest opinion, you haven't even really scraped the subject. Personally, I believe that all knockdowns should be max 4 seconds. You're supposed to just knock down your enemy, not mark their grave. I feel too many people have become used to the concept of knockdowns having long durations, oh well. I'll say it again, it's a RvR game, when you have big battles going on, which is what the game SUPPOSEDLY revolves around, you don't need long durations on powerful CC spells like knockdowns, because most people have them. Thus, when so many people have knockdowns, the long durations begin to become unnecessary and over the top.

Look at it this way, the same way Army of One and Unstoppable Madness were changed in order to reflect large battles, so should knockdowns be changed.

Feint needs to be scrapped completely. Knights don't need 2 knockdowns just as much as barbarians don't.

[theotherhiveking]

On another note, I hope that in the later stages of balance you will take a good look at Knight speed. With the removal of Spring (and soon the implecation of another slow) Knights have many mobility problems. May I suggest removing the speed penalty on Defensive Support or giving them back spring.



Dunno about this, now all the insane ambush ambush ambush ambush ambush ambush ambush combos will not happen anymore, mind control wont stop you anymore: in any case knights gained mobility.

Imho the most obvious problem is the knock duration.

A knockdown is:
-Immobilize
-Cannot Attack
-Dizzy
-Interrupt Casting

You know, not all knockdowns need to be the same duration, feint should be the longest, and kick should do a bit more damage and last the least, ambush and mind domain should be somewhere in the middle and have their ranges reduced a bit.

Something like this
Kick 4 seconds
Ambush and mind domain 6 seconds and a bit less range.
Feint 8 seconds.

[Miraculix]

I like the change to warriors, barbs with 2 knocks was too much.

Ambush melee range: Terrible idea, I can't see how this will possibly work. If a warrior is rushing towards an archer he is spamming kick, and the archer spams ambush. It will simply become a contest of who gets his spell cast first (or not resisted from the pointless random passive resist rate). Right now kick is instant, ambush is 1s cast time. Even if ambush becomes instant however, it's only luck that says who knocks who, and if the barbarian wins this luck contest, they kill you and its over. I don't see what the potential benefit of this idea is, I see only problems. To be honest I think ambush is fine as it is, if your analysis says otherwise I can only suggest that the range reduction from 25 to melee is too much, perhaps consider range 15 instead.

Stun fist: Again, I don't see what was wrong with it. I'd prefer if it stayed as a "cannot attack" spell. I especially don't understand the option to make it a "stun" spell, there is a range 25 stun spell available already, and I'd say that one is fine as it is too.

Will Domain: Warlocks especially depend a lot on successful spells (no resists) so it's a particularly useful "opener" for a fight, to make sure they don't get these pointless passive random resists. They already have access to a very powerful slow spell (Slow). Giving them a second, and in combination with Pricking Ivy really seems too much to me. I'd leave that spell as it is as well in terms of what the effect is. Maybe it is being cast a bit too fast however, I would suggest increasing the cast time a bit, to make it an effective 1 second cast when using Arcane Devotion (so 2 seconds as "base" cast time).

Marksmen changes: The change to BoW is good, but the arguments about what you think is "wrong" with the class seem badly informed. The main problem with marksmen from my gameplay experience is their access to great defense (Strategic Position, great range) and an excessive amount of control spells. I would suggest completely removing Strategic Position (or changing it completely and keep the name or whatever), remove damage from Winter Stroke as well, and increase the cooldown of Winter Stroke to 60 seconds or more. Perhaps a change to the passive range boost should be considered as well.

[Kitsuni]

Balance Update: Crowd Controls
The damage that Barbarians can do is high. We don’t believe that the issue is with the damage but with the fact that they have 2 Knocks (feint and kick). The ability to combine both skills creates the opportunity for a barbarían, to eliminate its opponent without a chance to get up.


Feint: moved to the “vanguard” -knight only- discipline to replace “intimidate”
Intimidate: moved to the “Tactics” discipline instead of “Kick”
Kick: Moved to the 1st place of the discipline in place of feint


We’ll have to do minor adjustments to the mana consumption and/or duration of these skills because of the change of place in the discipline. Although Barbarians will lose one of their CC skills, they will earn a slow skill that will allow them to reach their enemies.


This is a little incorrect. Barbarians have alot more than two knocks, they simply have two knocks "in the same tree". They can slow opponents by 33% (Slashing dicipline, very common) and knock enemies in an area down for a duration (Typhoon, Rage of the earth). You speak as if they didn't already possess these powers, when they did.

Removing Feint from the Barbarian is a good choice; however it will only discourage Spear users even more, creating more Slashing and Blunt Barbarians and the knock-down that you left for them in Tactics (Kick) will still bypass DI and thus will be of absolutely no help to Conjurors, the number one Barbarians attacks. A Conjuror can die from a single attack from a Barbarian with Fulminating, so even one knock-down skill is too much.



Ambush: The range of this spell will be reduced to melee range. This will allow archers to have a CC suited for melee classes (so to gain range for a brief period of time) but not against other ranged classes.
Stunning Fist: the effect “Cannot attack” will be replaced either by “Stun” or “cannot cast” (please let us know what you think)


Be extremely careful with this. You may help PvP balance, but it could be harmful to war balance. In fights, archers tend to be the sole protectors of mages. In an ideal world, there would be enough mages that they could dispel each other, cast DI, etc. But in reality having more than one mage or two mages (if even that many) on Horus is rare. Without Ambush in its current state, archers that are attempting to cover their mages with CC effects will be unable to stop warriors from attacking the mage without first running up to the warrior and then casting Ambush, losing critical time in which the mage can die in 1-2 hits (see above).

While it is true that mages suffer a great deal from enemy archers, saying that warriors suffer from enemy archers is a bit unrealistic. Knights may never catch an archer but to say that a Barbarian cannot win this battle is completely wrong. A Barbarian who knows what he is doing will never lose a battle against an archer, even a Marksman, and many players would argue that the Barbarian class is currently the OP one. This change to Ambush is really just unneccessary in my eyes, and will only harm balance more than help it, but as I have stated it is the support role that archers can fulfill with their CC spells that I am the most worried about.


Class: Mages (Warlocks y Conjurer)

Will Domain: this skill is going to be replaced by "Mummify".
Mummify: transforms the objective into a mummy showering its movements. Reduces movement speed and attack speed.


Again, I believe that these are useless changes. Will domain is a low-range, no-damage skill. It was only a threat in the rarest of situations, and because of the presence of UM on Barbarians, it was not affecting them too much since 20-25 meters (30 for Warlock due to Meteor) is very easy to cover in the 10sec duration with Spring. This change may leave Warlocks too vulnerable in realistic combat situations, and they are already extremely vulnerable if they get even one resist, or mess up the timing of their CC spells by even a second.

We have read many posts about this subclass being OP. We think that this issue is much more related o CCs than damage. Marksmen have a great amount and diversity of long range control skills that allows them to “keep range” all the time.
The combination of said CCs give them an edge against melee classes that need to reach them in order to fight.

This subclass has two CC skills that include damage, Winter Stroke and Burst of wind (cannot be stopped by “divine intervention” hurting team-play)
Also, after the last balance update mana regeneration was increased and it may be too high for this class (both for PVP and RVR)


Burst of Wind: damage will be removed.
Mana regen: slightly reduced during combat (we’ll add feedback on GUI while “in combat” status)



The Marksman is affected by the same problems as the Warlock. Players like to whine about them being OP, but unless you know what you are doing, it is very easy to mess up the timing and tactics and die. Several spells on the Marksman and Hunter are not currently working well (such as Son of the wind), often leaving CC chains as the only option to not get slaughtered in war. While I agree that Marksman have some balance issues, all these changes will really do is protect DI'ed mages at 50 meters while doing absolutely nothing about freeze spam, Confuse, Caltrops/Lightning arrow and at the same time the Marksman's damage remains too dependant on items, making some of them eextremely weak and others extremely strong.

My recommendation would be to first take a look at the range of Burst of wind (50+ with full passives and buffs), rather than the damage and to consider changing it to a slow spell so the Marksman can slow enemies charging at him, combined with a change to Winter stroke and other freeze spells to remove the current freeze spam from the game, or at least provide some way to counter it.

Anyway, I don't play the game very much anymore, so I don't honestly care what happens.

[HidraA]

Marksmen changes: The change to BoW is good, but the arguments about what you think is "wrong" with the class seem badly informed. The main problem with marksmen from my gameplay experience is their access to great defense (Strategic Position, great range) and an excessive amount of control spells. I would suggest completely removing Strategic Position (or changing it completely and keep the name or whatever), remove damage from Winter Stroke as well, and increase the cooldown of Winter Stroke to 60 seconds or more. Perhaps a change to the passive range boost should be considered as well.

Ok ..i am agree about defence and about range or CC...but if you remove Strategic Position ?

Wtf a second hunter?

Make all marks spells 1500 seconds CD sounds good to ya?...and spamm 800 dmg ensnare with SS+CB once at 5 seconds ?

Seems ppl want to complete nerf to dead class marksman now.....

Allrady told in other thread..ppl want to boost they main class,,they will not be fair in any kind of balance...for me the results of this "Balance" are sample a big mess at end....

I bet 50k xime ...at the end of this balance one class will die and other OP will born....

[terekon]

I will save my opinion for the changes specifically until after I have been able to try them out on amun.

I will say that I am happy to see NGD asking the community directly for input on changes. Hopefully this will help lead to better overall implementation.

[-Logan-]

Imho the most obvious problem is the knock duration.

A knockdown is:
-Immobilize
-Cannot Attack
-Dizzy
-Interrupt Casting

I agree. But you know knockdowns also have 2 more wonderful effects though: Block chance and evade chance = 0% (Which is realistic, but just plain stupid with the current durations imo.)

Knockdowns in their current state are grave markers. If you're in a heavy fight and your knocked down, that's it, you know instantly at that moment that death follows a few seconds afterwards.

[theotherhiveking]

I agree. You know knockdowns also have 2 more wonderful effects though: Block chance and evade chance = 0% (Which is realistic, but just plain stupid with the current durations imo.)

I forgot about that.

So yeah, Knock should be a panic (or strategic) skill, like knock and run for your life, or try to use a high casting time spell; right now they are kill skills, no matter what are you doing a knock is always the best choice.

Balance is about having meaningful choices too, dizzy or knock, immobilize or knock, dex debuff or knock? can't attack or knock? The best choice is pretty clear.

[Zas_]

My comments are colored in green below.


Balance Update: Crowd Controls


Comments _before_ any test on Amun


Crowd control skills are an important part of combat strategy both for PVP and RVR. Even though all clases have different variations of CC skills, some of their possible combinations generate a great deal of frustrations for Regnum players.

Among the different kinds of CCs, we believe that "knock down" is the most powerful. Not Only these skills leave the target without movement, attacking and casting, but also vulnerable to damage.

For this new balance iteration we will try not to modify a great deal of skills but to adjust a small set of them so we can observe the results in real gameplay conditions. By doing this, the analysis period should be shorter (less modified variables to take into account) and corrections that may arise should be easier to implement.

In this stage we will focus only on CC Skills with a single target.

Considering the above, and after studying both the game and the requests on the fórum, these are the proposed changes to be included in the future version.

Please read all the changes for all the classes before stating an opinion as all of the decisions are intertwined.


Class: Warrior (Barbs & Knights)

The damage that Barbarians can do is high. We don’t believe that the issue is with the damage but with the fact that they have 2 Knocks (feint and kick). The ability to combine both skills creates the opportunity for a barbarían, to eliminate its opponent without a chance to get up.

Both of these skills are part of the “Tactics” discipline, and we don’t want to affect the Knight with this change so we will do the following modification:


Feint: moved to the “vanguard” -knight only- discipline to replace “intimidate”
Intimidate: moved to the “Tactics” discipline instead of “Kick”
Kick: Moved to the 1st place of the discipline in place of feint


We’ll have to do minor adjustments to the mana consumption and/or duration of these skills because of the change of place in the discipline. Although Barbarians will lose one of their CC skills, they will earn a slow skill that will allow them to reach their enemies.

This will fix nothing, barbarians will have speed AND slow spells now, i would say even worse.
Did you already tested the changes you proposed on a local server or is this before any testing ?
 
Clase: Archer (Hunters and Marksmen)

The tactical situation between Archers and Warriors should play around the difference of range. In normal conditions a warrior that reaches melee range should have a positional advantage.
Because of the different CCs and “counter damage” available in the “Tricks” discipline This theoretical situation does not happen as often as we would like.
The following changes will be introduced with the intention of revert this. siguientes cambios serán introducidos con la intención de revertir la situación mencionada.


Ambush: The range of this spell will be reduced to melee range. This will allow archers to have a CC suited for melee classes (so to gain range for a brief period of time) but not against other ranged classes.
Stunning Fist: the effect “Cannot attack” will be replaced either by “Stun” or “cannot cast” (please let us know what you think)


I really don't get how you come to these... so an archer have even less means to stop a barbarian (which atm is under UM or offensive beacon or DI)....
I don't see how you fit hunter class in this scheme.
And still nothing about one of the most critized spell: confuse.


Class: Mages (Warlocks y Conjurer)

Based on the previous explanations we propose the following changes:


Will Domain: this skill is going to be replaced by "Mummify".
Mummify: transforms the objective into a mummy showering its movements. Reduces movement speed and attack speed.


How much is the slow effect on movement and attacks? it has to be VERY significative to replace Will Domain..

Subclass: Masksman

We have read many posts about this subclass being OP. We think that this issue is much more related o CCs than damage. Marksmen have a great amount and diversity of long range control skills that allows them to “keep range” all the time.
The combination of said CCs give them an edge against melee classes that need to reach them in order to fight.

This subclass has two CC skills that include damage, Winter Stroke and Burst of wind (cannot be stopped by “divine intervention” hurting team-play)
Also, after the last balance update mana regeneration was increased and it may be too high for this class (both for PVP and RVR)


Burst of Wind: damage will be removed. -> GOOD
Mana regen: slightly reduced during combat (we’ll add feedback on GUI while “in combat” status)


So you want to make Divine Intervention the new OP spell... because fights will be decided by number of barbarians and warlocks under DI (which has very (too) long effect when affecting such classes).


We wanted to have an initial discussion about these changes before we upload to Amun. Please try to explain yourselves and maintain a constructive thread.

Overall i don't like the changes you proposed, and if it goes on Amun, i'm pretty sure they will go on production servers as is, as you did most of the time.

What about keeping everything as today but:
- give feint to knights only
- reduce duration (and perhaps CD) of all CCs
- add a chance to break CC when a number of damages is received
- drop damage on Burst of Wind
- reduce Confuse duration

[HidraA]

What about keeping everything as today but:
- give feint to knights only
- reduce duration (and perhaps CD) of all CCs
- add a chance to break CC when a number of damages is received
- drop damage on Burst of Wind
- reduce Confuse duration
[/COLOR]

upps i just realise Zas is right...allrady a barb had lots of speed 25% twice /minut a archer 10% once /minut...now has more speed because you give them slow spell...a archer needs to stop to hit with a worst 200 dmg.. a barb can hit wille he runing with 1k+ dmg...so nothing happened ,nobody can escape.......

So the change from bad to bad....

-keep only kick or feint on barbarian;
-lower duration to max 4 s
-make longer cd of knocks.

[Vroek]

What about keeping everything as today but:
- give feint to knights only
- reduce duration (and perhaps CD) of all CCs
- add a chance to break CC when a number of damages is received
- drop damage on Burst of Wind
- reduce Confuse duration


Completely agree...

I really dont see the problem with the effect "knock", just the duration.
Same with some other CCs, immobilize, slow and cannot attack.
Lower duration or lower the effect, in some case maybe both but less and include at least some AoEs. Frozen storm, lightning arrow, rage of the earth and typhoon comes to mind.

Having alot of CCs with less effect, is more fun than having a few with OP effect.


Stage1, seems like hunters get more nerfed than marksmen, simply because they have less CCs to work with in the first place.

Will domain, one of few spells that cast fast enough to disrupt these frustrating CC combos and turn the tide.
One of warlocks most important spells since they dont have these "safety spells" or CC protection buffs like for example archers and barbarians have to turn the tide in a fight.

Burst of wind
Really dont see the difference, you only make DI and confuse even more OP.
Rather see an increase cool down of winter stroke tbh.

[Llayne]

I hope this is the update you look at confuse. If you do nothing else at least let the mage spell that resists knocks be able to resist confuse at the same %.

Many times on the smaller servers groups have one mage so DI on them is not possible. Confuse is the most OP spell in the game in my opinion. I hope that you listen to feedback and do something about it.

[Zas_]

C
Burst of wind
Really dont see the difference, you only make DI and confuse even more OP.
Rather see an increase cool down of winter stroke tbh.

Yes, better fix for it.

[Ashnurazg]

Hmm, the future changes sounds good, except of "Will domain".

A mage can immobilize other players with Ivy (good against warriors - slightly ineffective against mages and archers) and with the future Mummify, but without Will domain a mage can't stun another player. Mages are not so powerful at Regnum anymore.

Especially marksmen give BoW at mages. The mage is sentenced to death because he can't cast a spell for a long time (only can go away and wait until BoW is over).

Warlocks are the only offensive class without any protection buff against CC. I think a warlock should have a protection buff against CC.

I think the barbs mass stun spell effective and range (I think it is Deafening Roar) should be reduced.

Chilko, what is the next "stage"? Damage adjustment of main classes?

[Latan]

i think you're approaching in a wrong way to this balance work.

the real issue with CC'S is their DURATION/CD
barbarians could still kill someone in a kick duration (2 RoL, 5% leggings, TfB 5) with kick (4-5), normal, SC, normal, beast attack (5).
marksmen can simply change target if DI'ed and dizzy from 50+ m for 11s.
archers already have a range 25 stun.
mages already have mind push (locks have slow too).

i think the very first step should be a redefinition of CC and a maximum duration for each spell.
for example:
knock: 5 sec max
cannot move: 6 sec max
dizzy: 8 sec max
cannot attack: 8 sec max
freeze: 11 sec max
stun: 11 sec max
slowdown: 15 sec max
confuse/darkness: 20 sec max
armor debuffs: 20 sec max

once defined those limits, give each spell a good balance, so an appropriate range, mana cost, COOLDOWN (it's absurd that WS deals 500 dmg, keep you freezed for 6 seconds, has low mana cost and needs only 14 seconds to be recasted. same for kick: 8 seconds duration, then only 12 seconds to wait).

CC's should give and advantage, but they should not be the "I WIN" button, and keeping the same duration, these changes wouldn't improve the game at all

[PT_DaAr_PT]

I wanted to disagree with some things, but I already see some people did it before me. So, I'm gonna throw an old idea I've had stuck in my head for some time.

The main problem with CCs has always been their duration. 8 seconds knocked on the ground is just too long, same for 15 seconds stunned, it even gives time for the enemy to log out.
Also, a barbarian only needs 1 knock down to kill a mage(Seriously, take a look at the damage output diferences per class, please). Now, what if the duration of CCs in general were reduced?

For instance, the duration of Feint at level 1 is four(4) seconds and at level 5 it's eight(8) seconds. Now, Winter Stroke for instance, is two(2) seconds long at level 1 and six(6) seconds at level 5.
This 2 second diference seems to make a lot of balance diference, believe it or not.
The level 1 knock down is too powerful for a level 1 skill while winter stroke at level 1 deals what it promisses for that level.

If every CC duration was lowered in that way, a single CC wouldn't cause a huge decline in a player's survival chance.

CC duration of 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 seconds changed to 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 seconds per level
CC duration of 7 - 9 - 11 - 13 - 15 seconds changed to 3 - 5 - 7 - 9 - 11 seconds per level

Generally, I believe this is needed.

[Ashnurazg]

i think you're approaching in a wrong way to this balance work.

I think NGD should work on a "ground" balance between the classes, attack and defensive without CC, before making any changes at CC.

CC is the icing on the cake of balance. That's like building a house on a rotten footing. Repairing/Repacing the footing and the house is more stable.

NGD should keep in mind, that even tiny changes can have a large impact. :wish:

[Torcida]

Balance Update: Crowd Controls



Class: Mages (Warlocks y Conjurer)

Based on the previous explanations we propose the following changes:


Will Domain: this skill is going to be replaced by "Mummify".
Mummify: transforms the objective into a mummy showering its movements. Reduces movement speed and attack speed.



[/COLOR]


Wooooow relax NGD, Whats up? You want to kill mages or something? Will domain is our most important spell can't imagine winning a pvp without will domain, I mean comon it isn't a OP spell or something yes it is fast but take a look at the range! Its just 20, so it totally compensates with its fasr casting, other players can simply avoid getting will domained by just move out of its tiny range! Also I never heard anyone complaining about will domain at all... Don't you think you should focus on the REAL problems in CC-balance?

Hands off of Will domain!

[Gawyn_Trakkand]

all of the changes sound good and appropriate but ambush is a nerf further to hunter that wasnt needed.

I suggest making ambush a range 10-15 spell as this will neutralize the advantage gained over other range fighters (as they can hit in that range) but gives better protection vs melee.

Point in case a barb with kick can knock you and if buffed kill you without you getting up from the first knock and kick is instant where as ambush has a cast time so compeletely unfair for archer and offers 0 protection even if cast ime where to be made instant a if a barb kicks you and you ambush if barb gets through first you die this nerf is not needed.

[Kyrottimus]

I like what I'm seeing so far, it's a good starting point and I think, with ample testing and feedback, can be streamlined.

Ambush needed to be nerfed.
Barbs needed a knock removed.
Marks needed less CC

My only complaint is that locks now gain a 3rd slow spell... (with Slow + mindpush and now mummify)

Currently there are no resistances to slow spells at all and no cap on how the -% movement speed malus stacks. Something worth looking into imo, already ripe for spamming. Also, Winter-Stroke needs to have cool-down increased by quite a bit, again, in my opinion.

[Llayne]

Mummify is horrible idea. Already locks kill every other class with ease. You're giving them yet another - movement speed CC? Really? Do you ever play this game? Horrible, just horrible.

[Vincent_Valentine7]

Why not just make Ambush a hunter only skill move it to Scouting and remove Camouflage corpse sence no hunters use it and give ambush a 15m range

[Ricksa]

Overall i don't like the changes you proposed, and if it goes on Amun, i'm pretty sure they will go on production servers as is, as you did most of the time.

What about keeping everything as today but:
- give feint to knights only
- reduce duration (and perhaps CD) of all CCs
- add a chance to break CC when a number of damages is received
- drop damage on Burst of Wind
- reduce Confuse duration


+ 1,

Ambush reduced to melee range is as said before a terrible idea it'll just screw hunters over even more so than what they already are...

Same goes for will domain and a conj's chance at defending him/herself if such a scenario were to arise, keep it as is, no need for another slow spell.

And +1 to Vincents proposal of ambush becoming a hunter only spell, useless camo corpse spell needs to go etc..

[Kyrottimus]

Ok, thinking about this a little bit more, I think we're missing the larger picture in balancing CC's.

CC's need balance. Agreed.

But the biggest problem right now with all CC's (knock, stun, dizzy, slow, immobilize, freeze), is either their duration (too long) or their cool-down (too short).

If I were NGD? Well, I'm not them but let's play devil's advocate for a second.

Here's what I'd do regarding single-target CC's:

All slow spells will stack at capped -50% movement speed; no more since speed buffs are already capped at +50%.

Warriors:
Kick CD increased to 30 seconds.
Feint CD increased to 35 seconds.

Barbs:
Remove Feint, give to knights only (*as mentioned in OP).
Rage of the Earth duration reduced, cool-down increased slightly.

Knights (let's face it, they need some buffing yet):
Given Feint only in Vanguard Tree (*as mentioned in OP)
Shield Bash made instant-cast (this is needed so badly)
Protect Ally made instant-cast

Archers:
Confuse duration reduced
Distracting Shot's duration slightly reduced
Stunning Fist made to dizzy opponent with % chance (*as mentioned in OP)

Marksman:
Ambush removed and given to Hunters (to replace Camo Corpse)
Burst of Wind damage removed (*as mentioned in OP)
Winter-Stroke Cool-down doubled (yes, I said doubled)
IMO mana-consumption in marks is currently fine and should remain unchanged.

Hunters:
Given Ambush in place of Camo Corpse
Wild Spirit upped from 7% to 10% movement speed @ level 5

Mages:
Prickling Ivy range reduced to 20m

Warlocks:
Will-Domain removed and given to Conjurers (to replace Summon Imps)
Darkness Duration cut in half; cooldown reduced to 90 seconds.
Slow Duration reduced from 30 seconds to 15 seconds
Mummify added and ONLY reduces a target's attack speed (not movement)

Conjus:
Receive Will-Domain in place of Summon Imps

[esp_tupac]

Mummify is horrible idea. Already locks kill every other class with ease. You're giving them yet another - movement speed CC? Really? Do you ever play this game? Horrible, just horrible.

barbs get intimidate now so we are even XD

[DemonMonger]

Balance Update: Crowd Controls

Crowd control skills are an important part of combat strategy both for PVP and RVR. Even though all clases have different variations of CC skills, some of their possible combinations generate a great deal of frustrations for Regnum players.

Among the different kinds of CCs, we believe that "knock down" is the most powerful. Not Only these skills leave the target without movement, attacking and casting, but also vulnerable to damage.

For this new balance iteration we will try not to modify a great deal of skills but to adjust a small set of them so we can observe the results in real gameplay conditions. By doing this, the analysis period should be shorter (less modified variables to take into account) and corrections that may arise should be easier to implement.

In this stage we will focus only on CC Skills with a single target.

Considering the above, and after studying both the game and the requests on the fórum, these are the proposed changes to be included in the future version.

Please read all the changes for all the classes before stating an opinion as all of the decisions are intertwined.


Class: Warrior (Barbs & Knights)

The damage that Barbarians can do is high. We don’t believe that the issue is with the damage but with the fact that they have 2 Knocks (feint and kick). The ability to combine both skills creates the opportunity for a barbarían, to eliminate its opponent without a chance to get up.

Both of these skills are part of the “Tactics” discipline, and we don’t want to affect the Knight with this change so we will do the following modification:


Feint: moved to the “vanguard” -knight only- discipline to replace “intimidate”
Intimidate: moved to the “Tactics” discipline instead of “Kick”
Kick: Moved to the 1st place of the discipline in place of feint


We’ll have to do minor adjustments to the mana consumption and/or duration of these skills because of the change of place in the discipline. Although Barbarians will lose one of their CC skills, they will earn a slow skill that will allow them to reach their enemies.

 
Clase: Archer (Hunters and Marksmen)

The tactical situation between Archers and Warriors should play around the difference of range. In normal conditions a warrior that reaches melee range should have a positional advantage.
Because of the different CCs and “counter damage” available in the “Tricks” discipline This theoretical situation does not happen as often as we would like.
The following changes will be introduced with the intention of revert this. siguientes cambios serán introducidos con la intención de revertir la situación mencionada.


Ambush: The range of this spell will be reduced to melee range. This will allow archers to have a CC suited for melee classes (so to gain range for a brief period of time) but not against other ranged classes.
With the reduction in range on ambush, most hunter battles will have to be close range. Will hunters gain an increase to passive speed to assist in combat situations due to this change?

Stunning Fist: the effect “Cannot attack” will be replaced either by “Stun” or “cannot cast” (please let us know what you think)

Cannot cast would be beneficial for hunters vs warlocks and conjurers, but almost useless vs barbarians.

This skill is mainly used in close to stop barbarians from killing us with normal attacks when they catch us.

Stun could possibly overpower marks and hunters when combined with Damage over time skills in 1vs1 fights.
Example:
*Tear apart/(serpant bite) + break apart + distracting shot + wait for damage to tick and move in close + ambush + (coldblood)/basics + stunning fist [confuse will not be needed]

Class: Mages (Warlocks y Conjurer)

Based on the previous explanations we propose the following changes:


Will Domain: this skill is going to be replaced by "Mummify".
Mummify: transforms the objective into a mummy sLowing its movements. Reduces movement speed and attack speed.
This give warlocks extreme slowing powers when Mummify + Slow + mindpush.
This will give conjurers a semi extreme speed reduction Mummify + mindpush.
This concerns when dealing with warriors and archers with the new ambush, as we will be forced into close combat situations from which we cannot escape.


Subclass: Masksman

We have read many posts about this subclass being OP. We think that this issue is much more related o CCs than damage. Marksmen have a great amount and diversity of long range control skills that allows them to “keep range” all the time.
The combination of said CCs give them an edge against melee classes that need to reach them in order to fight.

This subclass has two CC skills that include damage, Winter Stroke and Burst of wind (cannot be stopped by “divine intervention” hurting team-play)
Also, after the last balance update mana regeneration was increased and it may be too high for this class (both for PVP and RVR)


Burst of Wind: damage will be removed. +1
Mana regen: slightly reduced during combat (we’ll add feedback on GUI while “in combat” status)
Not sure about the mana regen outcome for pvp since we were told game is rvr. In war this will bring us back to the old days when marksmen asked for mana every 20 seconds.

We wanted to have an initial discussion about these changes before we upload to Amun. Please try to explain yourselves and maintain a constructive thread.

Sounds interesting..... comments in green

[Torcida]

What exactly is so OP about will domain?

[DemonMonger]

What exactly is so OP about will domain?

Im not sure..... I thought that skill was well placed as it was normally.
Range was decent, duration devent, doesnt do damage when you fall....

[Torcida]

Im not sure..... I thought that skill was well placed as it was normally.
Range was decent, duration devent, doesnt do damage when you fall....

Does NGD realize that removing will domain would be a kick below the belt for us? It is a crucial spel especially in pvp, there is no point in removing it!

[bois]

I rather look at what is presented in this first stage than jumping the gun. This process may extend over many stages.

* Feint: moved to the “vanguard” -knight only- discipline to replace “intimidate”
* Intimidate: moved to the “Tactics” discipline instead of “Kick”
* Kick: Moved to the 1st place of the discipline in place of feint

Feint to Vanguard is fine by me. I am not so sure about Intimidate going to Tactics but let us be fair, how many barbs are going to waste points on this considering they have spring and horn is still there? Are they going to skill this for a measly 10% slow? I wager they will put the points in damage or other more profitable CC. Knights hardly use the spell because of its mediocre performance. Intimidate should be fine in Tactics. Most likely Knights will skill it anyway. I am in agreement with this move. I might be tempted to leave Kick where it is but I must consider that low levels will find this spell invaluable for grinding and war. Reduce effects to 2,3,4,5,6 seconds

* Ambush: The range of this spell will be reduced to melee range. This will allow archers to have a CC suited for melee classes (so to gain range for a brief period of time) but not against other ranged classes.
* Stunning Fist: the effect “Cannot attack” will be replaced either by “Stun” or “cannot cast” (please let us know what you think)


I don't like the melee range for this. You want risk but not too much risk. I would consider a 15m range for this one. Enough range to be highly risky but not too risky. I like the concept of putting hunter in the mid range role. Defenses must be boosted though. At this range a 0.5 cast could be considered. Reduce effect to 2,3,4,5,6 seg.
I think stunning fist could stay as it is right now. I think the risk is high enough. Cannot cast is an option but against melee this may be too weak. Reduce Effect to 2,3,4,5,6 seconds. I say leave this one untouched but reduce effect time.

* Will Domain: this skill is going to be replaced by "Mummify".
* Mummify: transforms the objective into a mummy showering its movements. Reduces movement speed and attack speed.


2 things. First up, the mage class needs a knock. Secondly, this skill feels like an arcane magic one. Indeed there is Slow and Petrify hands in Arcania.
I still like the concept of the spell though. I understand the idea is to reduce knocks in the game. Of course this will be a nightmare for Knights which are the slowest in the game already and would make them suffer slow even more painful deaths. I would like to try 2-6 second knock first. Will domain could be swapped with splinter wall. Splinter wall is one of those risky point blank spells. It could be moved further down without much harm I think. If I really wanted to get fancy I could say that DoT attacks cancel Knock. In that case leave this knock as is.

* Burst of Wind: damage will be removed.
* Mana regen: slightly reduced during combat (we’ll add feedback on GUI while “in combat” status)
Agree. Especially the slight reduction in mana regeneration. That is one of the biggest problems with Marks at the moment.

Look forward to round 2. It would be interesting if Knock was cancelled by any DoT spell. Just a thought.

[hawk0xad9]

Guess I'll throw my opinion in the pot as well.


Class: Warrior (Barbs & Knights)

The damage that Barbarians can do is high. We don’t believe that the issue is with the damage but with the fact that they have 2 Knocks (feint and kick). The ability to combine both skills creates the opportunity for a barbarían, to eliminate its opponent without a chance to get up.

Both of these skills are part of the “Tactics” discipline, and we don’t want to affect the Knight with this change so we will do the following modification:


Feint: moved to the “vanguard” -knight only- discipline to replace “intimidate”
Intimidate: moved to the “Tactics” discipline instead of “Kick”
Kick: Moved to the 1st place of the discipline in place of feint


We’ll have to do minor adjustments to the mana consumption and/or duration of these skills because of the change of place in the discipline. Although Barbarians will lose one of their CC skills, they will earn a slow skill that will allow them to reach their enemies.

Agree with most of it. Only potential problem I see is the speed difference between barbs and other classes, although it may not be an issue in game.

Class: Archer (Hunters and Marksmen)

The tactical situation between Archers and Warriors should play around the difference of range. In normal conditions a warrior that reaches melee range should have a positional advantage.
Because of the different CCs and “counter damage” available in the “Tricks” discipline This theoretical situation does not happen as often as we would like.
The following changes will be introduced with the intention of revert this. The following changes will be introduced with the intention of reversing the aforementioned situation.


Ambush: The range of this spell will be reduced to melee range. This will allow archers to have a CC suited for melee classes (so to gain range for a brief period of time) but not against other ranged classes.
Stunning Fist: the effect “Cannot attack” will be replaced either by “Stun” or “cannot cast” (please let us know what you think)


Hmm, these seem like too much. Maybe a compromise of ambush range to around 15 would be better than melee range. I didn't think stunning fist was much of an issue to begin with, so it can probably be left alone. If it was changed, archers already have a stun skill, and "cannot cast" would be fine for mages, but not for warriors (like someone else previously mentioned). Surprised to see nothing on confuse though...


Class: Mages (Warlocks and Conjurer)

Based on the previous explanations we propose the following changes:


Will Domain: this skill is going to be replaced by "Mummify".
Mummify: transforms the objective into a mummy showering its movements. Reduces movement speed and attack speed.


Perhaps sharing more info on how this plays in would help... it's a nice skill on paper though, just not as a replacement for will domain in my opinion.


Subclass: Masksman

We have read many posts about this subclass being OP. We think that this issue is much more related o CCs than damage. Marksmen have a great amount and diversity of long range control skills that allows them to “keep range” all the time.
The combination of said CCs give them an edge against melee classes that need to reach them in order to fight.

This subclass has two CC skills that include damage, Winter Stroke and Burst of wind (cannot be stopped by “divine intervention” hurting team-play)
Also, after the last balance update mana regeneration was increased and it may be too high for this class (both for PVP and RVR)


Burst of Wind: damage will be removed.
Mana regen: slightly reduced during combat (we’ll add feedback on GUI while “in combat” status)


I like these changes; DI may become more powerful as a result. It would be nice to see a slight change in winter stroke as well, in cooldown (25 seconds maybe?).

* It would be nice to have some info on mana cost, duration, cooldown, etc. changes, but I suppose the details may not be exactly set in stone just yet. It's also hard to see in some cases if the changes listed will be for the better or the worse without knowing about the changes planned for the other skills, but hey, it's a start. Looking forward to the rest of this process.

[animalartist]

Wooooow relax NGD, Whats up? You want to kill mages or something? Will domain is our most important spell can't imagine winning a pvp without will domain, I mean comon it isn't a OP spell or something yes it is fast but take a look at the range! Its just 20, so it totally compensates with its fasr casting, other players can simply avoid getting will domained by just move out of its tiny range! Also I never heard anyone complaining about will domain at all... Don't you think you should focus on the REAL problems in CC-balance?

Hands off of Will domain!

Totally agree.

+ 1,

Ambush reduced to melee range is as said before a terrible idea it'll just screw hunters over even more so than what they already are...


And +1 to Vincents proposal of ambush becoming a hunter only spell, useless camo corpse spell needs to go etc..

Agreed also, but take whole tricks tree from Marks.

[_Enio_]

Nice to see work on these matters!

In the OP i see options taken away or nullified which makes me nervous ~.~ so i can only remind to not lose the fun and interaction aspect out of focus.

Similar to Offensive Banners, the loss of control spells leads to "no options" situations - that is bad.
Like when designing from scratch you add spells, and add counter spells, synergies that lead to fun in playing. Just a friendly reminder to not go it backwards all the way. If not careful we end up with the only tools left for tactic and timing will be the correct placement of Banners and Defensive Auras.

Add gameplay options while defusing problematic parts.

Looking forward to testing.

[Kyrottimus]

Looking forward to testing.

ENIOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Looking forward to seeing you back dude, a few of us have been missing the hell out of ya on Horus xD

[TheMessenger]

Balance Update: Crowd Controls
Subclass: Masksman

We have read many posts about this subclass being OP. We think that this issue is much more related o CCs than damage. Marksmen have a great amount and diversity of long range control skills that allows them to “keep range” all the time.
The combination of said CCs give them an edge against melee classes that need to reach them in order to fight.

This subclass has two CC skills that include damage, Winter Stroke and Burst of wind (cannot be stopped by “divine intervention” hurting team-play)
Also, after the last balance update mana regeneration was increased and it may be too high for this class (both for PVP and RVR)




Burst of Wind: damage will be removed.
Mana regen: slightly reduced during combat (we’ll add feedback on GUI while “in combat” status)


We wanted to have an initial discussion about these changes before we upload to Amun. Please try to explain yourselves and maintain a constructive thread.

I think that BoW needs more of a nerf. The duration needs to be lowered to 7 or 8 seconds at lvl 5(I think it is ridiculous that a marks has 11second dizzy like this, vs lock its rape) but CD down by 5seconds or so.

I will leave my answer for mana regen when Isee it

[TheMessenger]

Agreed also, but take whole tricks tree from Marks.

I guess you didn't think of the outcome of this?

If you take tricks tree away from marks all you will see is range 50 marks never letting any class get 30m in range, even more so then now. It is possible.

[-Logan-]

But the biggest problem right now with all CC's (knock, stun, dizzy, slow, immobilize, freeze), is either their duration (too long) or their cool-down (too short).

Without a doubt it's the duration. I actually think if there were shorter durations and the current cooldowns stayed as they were, we would see a lot more fluid combat.

Along with that, when you have shorter durations you could theoretically get more teamwork, because there is less sustainability for each person. Right now we have something where one attack can become an opener for 3 other people. To me, it should roughly be the other way around, where people have CC's with short durations, thus need to combine them together (strategically) for good effects. Obviously people already combine CC's, and because of long durations these all stack with each other resulting in destroying your target.

If one man can paralyze someone completely for 8 seconds, then is it really necessary for everyone around him to be able to do the same?

[time-to-die]

hello.

But if ambush is now a melee thing. It got way more cast time than kick or feint. So that means that ambush is now pointless against warriors?

[-Kalid-]

As i understand so far that archers can't knock down their enemies from distance, then why the heck are they range classes?

And stunning fist was and always be the best way to stop an enemy from attacking and know it's cannot cast? Lol you joking right?

[jesus2]

Here is my view

1)Remove strategic position from Marksmen
2)Remove dmg bonus from BoW (so that DI is useful again)
3)Increase Winter Stroke cd, 40 seconds would be nice (and maybe remove dmg bonus as well)

Range I d say is not such a problem with Marksman, as far as the things I mentioned above are considered.Also Ambush change to melee spell is a bad idea imo as lots of ppl already mentioned.I would suggest that u make it Range 15 with more cd maybe.

Giving archers melee ambush makes barbs more OP and game more imbalanced in my opinion so pls think about it very well

Regards

[HidraA]

Here is my view

1)Remove strategic position from Marksmen

Regards

NO FUKING way ....lmao lame shit that i ever heard.

List of of wishes from ppl:

-Remove strategic posititio;
-Nerf dmg;
-Remove any kind of tricks from marks;
-Mana allrady nerfred...in a few hits out of mana..so basically removed recharged arows....

Some ppl are realy crazy....

Whats next ?...remove Marks?!?

Meh i give up at ambush,i give up at range,i give up at bow,i give up at man regen,i giveup at stuning fist...but ...but lmao ppl complete remove all trees from marks...wtf?!?!?

Diference between marks and hunter was that strategic position,recharged arows and bow.
So my dmg bonus cost mana.
If you remove strategic position hunter will take advantage because hunters armors have hight resist at piercing,all bows are piercing dmg....only arows are different.
Bow and mana was nerfred...so whtf for marks????told and i will tell again...ppl look only from they main class point of view and they will not be fair ....meh....i keep my bet of 50k xime ..with a class will be killed and other made OP...

[UmarilsStillHere]

i keep my bet of 50k xime ..with a class will be killed and other made OP...

Please don't throw around big numbers of xim as if it makes your opinion more correct.

Overall these changes (in the op) seem like a decent start, confuse could still use a change as well as some other spells. Strategic position being one of them, marks current damage output compared to hunters doesn't justify having better defence as well.

Yes warlocks are sounding like they can own warriors more than ever (more slow cc), warriors are sounding like they'll probably own archers(archers reduced ambush range/stunfist change), and well archers, need something more to be strong vs mages.

So we're sort of reaching a combat triangle. People need to realise that asking for their class to have a fair shot vs every other class is very hard to pull off in balance.

Also, old saves or at least the return of the CS saves please...

[jesus2]

NO FUKING way ....lmao lame shit that i ever heard.

List of of wishes from ppl:

-Remove strategic posititio;
-Nerf dmg;
-Remove any kind of tricks from marks;
-Mana allrady nerfred...in a few hits out of mana..so basically removed recharged arows....
made OP...

Man are u stupid?What am I asking roflmao seems u are.Did I mention any of the things u said on my post???I dont think I did.I except response from ppl who actually play the game and not retired ones.If u like the situation with marks as it is now then good for u.90% of ppl here complain bout marks and barbs being OP, so u re the minority here complaining bout the opposite.

[Arafails]

I like most of these, I think the majority of points have already been discussed. The bad things that jump out at me are:

Melee ambush is a monumentally bad idea. If anything at all needed a change with this spell, it might take a longer CD, like any other knock down. But to balance that the cast time would need lowering.

Will domain needn't be touched. Really. Don't do it.

I don't think this addresses barbarian knock downs sufficiently. I have a couple of suggestions, subject to technical feasibility:

- Replace Rage of The Earth knockdown effect with immobilize effect (possibly chance knockdown/immobilise), or at the very least reduce its duration.
- Melee attack speed reduced on knocked targets. I think that a reasonable adjustment would have the effect of making one handed weapons a speed class slower when attacking a knocked target, and two handed weapons double that reduction. In addition, knocked players could gain a resistance to damage from area attacks.

[HidraA]

Please don't throw around big numbers of xim as if it makes your opinion more correct.


I am sorry you dont understand that i told...i just balanced and listed ppl wishes...and i can predict results of what will be next.It was not because i want my opinion to be belived,it was just because i can see how ppl erase trees not balace some spells from marks.
And about minority ...jessus ..yes true true and sad...minority that camp forum and not the game will balance this game...wtv sorry keep in mind my bet....and see you in next months....
Wtv..i hope your wishes to be heard by NGD as usual and distroy marx....and in few months all complait about other class..in all this years i have seen lots of this kind of circle.

[Darcyeti]

I'm looking forward to test the things you mentioned here.

I love the idea of taking feint away from barbs. Nevertheless the duration of feint/kick should be reduced as well.

Ambush range melee is to hard imo, range 10-15 would do well.

Burst of wind without dmg? That's great.

Would love to see winter stroke cd made longer.

Stunning fist changed to stun or cannot cast? I don't know really, but it's worth a try.

Will domain changed to mummify sounds interessting, must be tested how useful it will be.

Mana at marks is not such an issue imo, it would be better to lower their defence. Strategic position moved from marks to hunters would be a good way.

[jesus2]

I'm looking forward to test the things you mentioned here.

I love the idea of taking feint away from barbs. Nevertheless the duration of feint/kick should be reduced as well.

Ambush range melee is to hard imo, range 10-15 would do well.

Burst of wind without dmg? That's great.

Would love to see winter stroke cd made longer.

Stunning fist changed to stun or cannot cast? I don't know really, but it's worth a try.

Will domain changed to mummify sounds interessting, must be tested how useful it will be.

Mana at marks is not such an issue imo, it would be better to lower their defence. Strategic position moved from marks to hunters would be a good way.

Great summarize of ideas man.A huge +1 for this, it is exactly what most players have in mind :clapclap:.Hope NGD listens sometime ;)

[LawZ]

I'm looking forward to test the things you mentioned here.

I love the idea of taking feint away from barbs. Nevertheless the duration of feint/kick should be reduced as well.

Ambush range melee is to hard imo, range 10-15 would do well.

Burst of wind without dmg? That's great.

Would love to see winter stroke cd made longer.

Stunning fist changed to stun or cannot cast? I don't know really, but it's worth a try.

Will domain changed to mummify sounds interessting, must be tested how useful it will be.

Mana at marks is not such an issue imo, it would be better to lower their defence. Strategic position moved from marks to hunters would be a good way.

Exactly my thoughts summarized for the time being...

[HuntShot]

I'm looking forward to test the things you mentioned here.

I love the idea of taking feint away from barbs. Nevertheless the duration of feint/kick should be reduced as well.

Ambush range melee is to hard imo, range 10-15 would do well.

Burst of wind without dmg? That's great.

Would love to see winter stroke cd made longer.

Stunning fist changed to stun or cannot cast? I don't know really, but it's worth a try.

Will domain changed to mummify sounds interessting, must be tested how useful it will be.

Mana at marks is not such an issue imo, it would be better to lower their defence. Strategic position moved from marks to hunters would be a good way.

Jup +1

Only problem is, ambush if you guys are going to reduce range to melee then reduce the cast speed to please to compensate the lose.. 1,5sec melee near a barb? Equals dead.

And Will Domain well, i like the Idea... in some way, it's just many locks have Will Domain as their base CC by saying that I mean they Start or they Need Will Domain in their CC Chain in order to work.. I think I can adjust my CC chain but im 100% sure it will be less useful, still lock indeed needed a little nerf.




Overall I think I can talk for everybody if I say that you did a great job NGD, telling us the changes so we can discuss them before you put them on Amun! Another great step in the right direction!:clapclap:

[bois]

I'm looking forward to test the things you mentioned here.

I love the idea of taking feint away from barbs. Nevertheless the duration of feint/kick should be reduced as well.

Ambush range melee is to hard imo, range 10-15 would do well.

Burst of wind without dmg? That's great.

Would love to see winter stroke cd made longer.

Stunning fist changed to stun or cannot cast? I don't know really, but it's worth a try.

Will domain changed to mummify sounds interessting, must be tested how useful it will be.

Mana at marks is not such an issue imo, it would be better to lower their defence. Strategic position moved from marks to hunters would be a good way.

Good summary indeed. I am concerned about stunning fist. In my view "cannot cast" will weaken this spell too much. As a point blank spell I think it is fine at the moment. Maybe duration could be lowered marginally.
Will domain is a touchy one. I think mages need this knock. I was thinking somewhat radically with this one. If the mechanics somehow permitted it, any single target DoT spell would cancel knock. This may be impossible but the spell is reasonably balanced right now anyway. Changing it outright to mummify does not look so good on paper. Knights will suffer and it will not be that effective on barbs. Mummify is essentially an anti melee spell. If mummify must come in , I think a cap would have to be considered on slow spells or prevent them from stacking.

I think differently about mana and marks. In the past Marks had too little mana. Now they have access to too much. A compromise must be struck where a marks will have to think about reserving mana and mana sucking spells can become effective on them again. As is they have to pay too little attention on their mana reserves. This should be adjusted slightly to make their spell selections more challenging.
The rest of the ideas are not in round one so I will not comment on them yet.

[Raindance]

Looks like the majority of people want hunters with Strategic Position and Winter Stroke destroyed, alright, but remove Confuse, however, all in all that would be a very lazy thing to do rather than thinking of something else to improve hunters.

Nonetheless, Strategic Position needs to be 20-25% at level 5.

[53453467734534]

Ok...

First: My opinion (+ suggestions) on CC spells
http://www.regnumonline.com.ar/forum/showpost.php?p=1263838&postcount=15
and http://www.regnumonline.com.ar/forum/showpost.php?p=1343526&postcount=3

Furthermore a class balance poll with more than 100 votes.
I think you can call it representative.
http://www.regnumonline.com.ar/forum/showthread.php?t=78449

Now my views on these planned changes:

Feint: moved to the “vanguard” -knight only- discipline to replace “intimidate”


I wasn´t directly an advocate for this change, but it seems justified.

Intimidate: moved to the “Tactics” discipline instead of “Kick”


Questionable...
Barbarian already has "spring" and in combination with these other changes to "Ambush" and "Will domain"... Moreover this is even more dangerous for Warlocks and Hunter (two weaker classes at the moment), because it is more difficult for them to stay out of "Intimidate" range (12)
Better swap with "Challenge" (good against this silly "horse escape")

Kick: Moved to the 1st place of the discipline in place of feint



If "Feint" is (re)moved this is fair enough. Approve

Ambush: The range of this spell will be reduced to melee range. This will allow archers to have a CC suited for melee classes (so to gain range for a brief period of time) but not against other ranged classes.


Ok, this will help Warlocks...
but very bad for Hunter and nearly everyone thinks, that Hunter have to be buffed (see poll)

Swap with Death Sentence? Or replace "Camouflage corps"?
BUT this will possibly create more problems (see "Will domain comments" below)
However Marksmen can simply shoot up the gate, instead of knocking the outcoming warriors down.
Whether this is fun is another question.

Stunning Fist: the effect “Cannot attack” will be replaced either by “Stun” or “cannot cast” (please let us know what you think)


We already have a Stun effect "Distracting Shot". Doesn´t make sense to have a second one that only works at close range?!!
And Dizziness is nearly useless against Barbarians at close range, but will
annoy Warlocks even more. And Warlocks are weak in my (and other peoples) opinion. I really don´t think "Stunning Fist" is imbalanced at all, and i think it is an interesting and different spell too. Don´t change it!

Will Domain: this skill is going to be replaced by "Mummify".
Mummify: transforms the objective into a mummy showering its movements. Reduces movement speed and attack speed.



Another Slow spell?! Lame...

Apart from that:

On the one hand this will slow enemies to the extreme. Not very funny.

On the other hand mages cannot knock down a Warrior (especially a Barbarian) in front of the door. This is a REAL PROBLEM. A defending warrior has nothing to be afraid of. If he is low on hit points he can go in. He even can switch in and out at fort battles all the time (without necessity of any team play or preparation :\).As a result, the attacker will have too kill everyone extremely fast (before someone gets in again) , or try to open the door immediately.
Both is now (low cast speed on warlock) only possible with barbarian class.
The best class too play (or abuse) "in and out" is barbarian too.
Even further you can´t prevent AE spamming reasonably effective anymore.
The best class to spam AEs is of course barbarian
Overall the defender has a huge advantage.

Besides: The conjurer has to stand among the melee fighters. Slowing isn´t as effective to protect him in front of the door.

And finally: "Will domain" was the ONLY spell that was faster to cast for Warlocks than the CCs of Archers/Marksmen. Slow doesn´t help at all here...

A big NO.

Burst of Wind: damage will be removed.


This was my opinion:
"In my opinion the problem for mages isn´t range, but very slow (CC) cast time. Also i don´t like uber-range locks.
This would be my solution (i have posted this before, but because everything
repeats itself anyway, i can also recapitulate my thoughts).

Post patch warlock (copied from another thread, more suitable here):

Marksman has more range, faster CCs with more range too, is faster on the run and has much more defense. Warlock has more and better area effects, maybe slightly more dmg. However, Warlock cannot do anything useful, while under dizziness. There is no ST (+ Fire Ball, Crystal Blast) rush anymore. On the battlement, attacking archers have more range, in front of the door, he will be knocked out (in the true sense of the word). He cannot use beetle swarm anymore on fort defending barbs.

To balance it, Warlocks CCs should be faster to cast than marks, but slower than CCs of melee classes. ST should "work" again. That would be already sufficient, to give him a noticeable role in fort battles. Marksman would be stronger long range, melee fighter stronger close range, and warlock strongest medium range.

Now, only against melee classes in the fields, the warlock is still quite strong.
Maybe in very large battles because of area effects he is at least useful, but barbs have better AEs."

Summarized: LONGER CAST TIME please. Maybe maximal range of 35

"Divine Intervention" or No "Divine Intervention" shouldn´t be the question;)

Mana regen: slightly reduced during combat (we’ll add feedback on GUI while “in combat” status)


Unsure.
I think it can stay as it is now.

[bois]

You could make Strategic Position similar to wind wall specifications.

[Raindance]

You could make Strategic Position similar to wind wall specifications.

Or simply swap their current values.

[Pwnography]

What i'd like to see done to marksmen(and archers in general):
1. Range reduced to what it was - Imo it was more fun when archers(marksmen especially) didn't have and instant way to win vs any other class(maintaining their huge range)
2. Mana regen for marksmen reduced - I like this idea. As it is right now marksmen can use Recharged arrows without worring about the mana they lose from using it.
3. Recharged arrows to be changed back to +% damage bonus instead of just +% Weapon damage bonus - with the range range and mana regen reduced this would be needed to encourage people to still use their marksmen.

Basically I want marksmen returned to the way they were before the last balance update. While I might be alone in saying this, I thought they were much more fun before the range increase etc.

Removing damage from BoW seems like a good idea and i don't believe it will hinder marksmen too much.

Will domain is fine as it is, I don't see any reason to change it, but maybe then spell replacing it will work alright.

I think hunters need to be changed. Head of the pack is really missed by hunters in fort wars as it provided a huge damage bonus to them. However if it was re introduced i believe Cold blood would need a small nerf.

I like the changes to warriors and I don't think barbs will benefit as much with the slow as they did with 2 knocks.

[Minorian]

Nothing about confuse? :ohill:

EDIT:
3. Recharged arrows to be changed back to +% damage bonus instead of just +% Weapon damage bonus - with the range range and mana regen reduced this would be needed to encourage people to still use their marksmen.


No, this would once again add to the fact that marksmen can only play with boss jewelry/good gear.

[wizardmagewarlock]

This update is really good :D Thanks for these changes.

I can't wait now. Do it as soon as possible :D

But i think, hunters should be a bit better than now.

Love ya NGD <3

[tarugozapata]

Si quitan emboscada, que la quiten a todos por igual, me refiero a fintas y otros poderes de aturdimiento en todas las clases generales. Eso es lo que frustra el juego. Esa es mi humilde opinión. Quien da primero un alto porcentaje gana. Eliminen todas las skills de incapacidad y no habrá más frustraciones

[Punti_X]

When fixing CCs, please finally repair / make usefull Protection Dome spell.

[Castingbeast]

Nerf nerf nerf as always... sigh
I see many ppl complaining about freeze and strategic position how OP it is and such, well I dont think so. I dont see any problems with them, BUT if NGD wanna do something about em, Id rather see something alike:

I dont see any changes about confuse announced (yet), SO hunters should stop whining! They still have camo and confuse.
So much about strategic position :closed2:

About freeze:

Instead of nerfing it, Id add something to "counter" it, a new spell, ok two, but the effect would be the same (2 coz of the classes :D)

Called for archers/warriors "Heat", which will be placed either into the Evasion tree instead of Cat reflexes, or into Tricks tree instead of Finesse/Sticky Touch.

Itd be either a Freeze passive skill (lv1 14%, lv2 28%, lv3 42%, lv4 56% and lv5 70% immunity against freeze), or itd be a spell against freeze (after cast itd grant ya a %( i.e 70%) immunity against freeze for a few secs ( 6-8 sec max, CD 60 sec or something)
Note: 70% might be too much, was just my first thought :).

So now for mages. Id add "Meltdown" to Enchantments tree instead of Blindness wich is IMHO a completely useless spell. Would work just as I already described above ^^

And for warriors Id add the "Heat" spell to the Tactics tree instead of the Back slam skill.

OT.

Feint: moved to the “vanguard” -knight only- discipline to replace “intimidate”
Intimidate: moved to the “Tactics” discipline instead of “Kick”
Kick: Moved to the 1st place of the discipline in place of feint

Giving barbs only one knock might be a good start but leaving knights without any speed buff or slowing spell not so much promising imho :)
Not to mention that barbs are already the fastest class atm so why giving em a slow spell as well?

As many already said it the main problem is the duration of knock spells not the effect itself. I liked Annavilya's suggestion the best tho: removing knock effect after a certain dmg received :).

Ambush: The range of this spell will be reduced to melee range. This will allow archers to have a CC suited for melee classes (so to gain range for a brief period of time) but not against other ranged classes.
Stunning Fist: the effect “Cannot attack” will be replaced either by “Stun” or “cannot cast” (please let us know what you think)

Dont like these changes at all, lowering knocks duration would be enough imo for ambush and I dont see any sense for the Stunning Fist change, it is just as good as it is now. Archers need to "cannot attack" rushing barbs, knight whatever, dont change it pls :D

Will Domain: this skill is going to be replaced by "Mummify".
Mummify: transforms the objective into a mummy showering its movements. Reduces movement speed and attack speed.

Again, no change is needed here IMO, maybe raise its casting time and cd but no more, effect is ok.

Burst of Wind: damage will be removed.
Mana regen: slightly reduced during combat (we’ll add feedback on GUI while “in combat” status)

Sounds quite fair about the dizzy spell but I dont wanna go back in time to that when marks were asking for mana every 20 sec, already being said by someone as well, only can confirm that, THO it should be tested first.

All in all its really good to see NGD's back at work, keep on communicating with us and RO might be a better game again! :D

Oh yeah!!! OLD SAVES BACK TOO PLS!! xD

[Ponter]

Jup +1

Only problem is, ambush if you guys are going to reduce range to melee then reduce the cast speed to please to compensate the lose.. 1,5sec melee near a barb? Equals dead.


The new ambush should be instant cast, of course.

Best regards!

[Awrath]

Glad to see balance is on the table. Previous posts have pretty much covered what I wish to say, so I shall summarise my views.

While I like the idea of removing a knock from barbarians, the combination of spring plus intimidate will simply be counter productive to balance. Granted that the amount of knock spells available to a barb is a problem however, as mentioned by many others the bigger problem is the duration of these knocks. I personally think that 3 or 4 seconds is more than enough time for the duration of any knock spell. A knock should not be the deciding factor of the outcome of a battle, but rather allow for a small tactical advantage when used and timed well.

Ambush at melee range is also not the greatest idea, it will affect hunters in a pretty bad way, but simply reducing the duration of ambush (and all other knocks) and perhaps bringing the range down a bit would be a solution good enough.

Stunning fist should not have a "stun" effect, personally I think that it's current method as a cannot attack is fine, the main concern is the other CC's it is used in chains with. Increase the cool down of winter stroke, decrease the duration of distracting shot, thus allowing more tactics to be used rather than mindless CC cycling.

As for will domain, again, reduce duration and leave it as it is, last thing mages need is another slow spell.

I like the direction of the flow of thoughts towards balance, CC's are definitely a problem, I just hope you will actually take the community requests on board and give it a good trial run on Amun, then adjust and then repeat before taking it live.

[Sombra_gris_]

is fun to see other clases trying to help hunters .. lol!! So bad we are now!!

[bois]

Looking at he progression of the thread, We should remember that this is an initial discussion of round 1 of a balance update. I can understand people getting carried away as we have so few balance updates, but I am sure more of the CC spells will be addressed in further rounds.

Looking back at Intimidate, I can understand the doubt about making that a shared spell. There is only one other spell they can move. This would be ' Challenge' This was mentioned earlier.
The question is, if that spell is moved instead, would it have to take a range nerf now? Should a barb have any long range spell whatsoever?

Personally, I wish they could throw out (retire) Rigorous Preparation (Preparation H) and insert feint in the tree. Put feint at 1, leave intimidate, put challenge in the slot left by Rigorous preparation and invent an all new spell in the tactics tree. A good example would be an attack speed reduction type spell. Call it 'Tendon Strike' or something.

[Torcida]

Conjurer has to be buffed 32 30.77%
Conjurer is balanced 58 55.77%
Conjurer has to be nerfed 7 6.73%

Total votes 97 ; A total of 90 voters (87%) DOESN'T think conjurer should be nerfed at all and some of then think a conjurer should be buffed!, Removing will domain clearly is a Nerf

Warlock has to be buffed 30 28.85%
Warlock is balanced 50 48.08%
Warlock has to be nerfed 18 17.31%

Total Votes= 98 ; A total of 80 voters (77%) Doesnt think a warlock should be nerfed at all and some of them even think they should be buffed, Removing will domain clearly is a Nerf



So NGD arround 80 % of your players ( 4 out of 5 people) Don't think the Mage class should be nerfed, The choice is up too you Listen to the community now OR you can choose to remove will domain and replace it for another useless spell and you will find yourself 6 months from now at the next balance update and you will say ; We are Giving the Mages will domain back because it seemed they REALLY needed a knock spell after all!


Please NGD, Hands off of will domain!


(http://www.regnumonline.com.ar/forum...ad.php?t=78449 Link to the poll)

[_Nel_]

Well, here is my 2 cents too.

I agree with most that have been said here. Better ideas is from DaAr and Anna.
If every CC duration was lowered in that way, a single CC wouldn't cause a huge decline in a player's survival chance.

CC duration of 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 seconds changed to 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 seconds per level
CC duration of 7 - 9 - 11 - 13 - 15 seconds changed to 3 - 5 - 7 - 9 - 11 seconds per level

Generally, I believe this is needed.

Reducing duration of CC is the best solution. As already stated a lot of times, CC should give a tactical advantage, but shouldn't mark your grave. Reducing duration will suit that idea in the best way.

What about keeping everything as today but:
- give feint to knights only
- reduce duration (and perhaps CD) of all CCs
- add a chance to break CC when a number of damages is received
- drop damage on Burst of Wind
- reduce Confuse duration

I will add :
- don't touch Will Domain, it will have a perfect balance with reduction of CC duration.
- Stunning Fist is fine as it is too, it gives a good way to get away from warriors (especially barbs), and it will get nerfed a little bit with DaAr idea.
- Ambush range 15 is enough, it doesn't need to be a melee range spell, that will be a too huge nerf.
- Mummify, we don't need another slow spell, especially if speed reduction is not capped as speed increase.
- and again, reduce Confuse duration, it is wanted by everyone for ages, especially by conjurers. You should do it in this 1st stage, we need more conjurers in game. Don't trust your statistics, most of them only log in for boss killing, never for wars.
- and again, give us our old altars. I'm sick of waiting for hours until a single enemy try to show up when we hold an enemy fort. This game needs a better flow of enemies to keep it dynamic as it was before.

I'm sure I forgot some of other very good suggestions.
Most of players who have posted in this topic, know very well what it's good to improve gameplay. Listen to them.

I hope I won't be too much naive to trust you this time.

Here is the current state of Horus, we need to get back our fun game.

http://pix.toile-libre.org/upload/original/1310842724.jpg

[Shagratzz]

- and again, give us our old altars. I'm sick of waiting for hours until a single enemy try to show up when we hold an enemy fort. This game needs a better flow of enemies to keep it dynamic as it was before.





!!!!!!!!!!

[Seher]

Slow steps, slow steps. First of all: I think all changes benefit balance, but it's FAR from being enough.

Crowd control skills are an important part of combat strategy both for PVP and RVR. Even though all clases have different variations of CC skills, some of their possible combinations generate a great deal of frustrations for Regnum players.

Not just combinations. Every single CC is too strong.

In this stage we will focus only on CC Skills with a single target.

Very good decision! That's Regnum's biggest problem. (The next problem are hunters) But this solution is in no way sufficient.

I just wonder... In the past you've made many radical changes, to fix conceptual problems of the game. All of that was needed, badly. Why do care that much about players now? Please, stick to your old policy, fix the conceptual problems of Regnum! The whole CC system is the biggest conceptual problem since attacking while strafing.
You've said that you don't want to do a proper solution, because it would feel like a bigger nerf. (http://regnumonlinegame.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1155936&postcount=62) Why? You haven't cared in the past when it came to fixing important stuff, why do you care now?
Balance needs radical changes. A working balance just needs small adjustments, but balance in Regnum is broken. It's not about advantages of some classes, it's about a completely broken gameplay.

Why are CCs bad?

As already stated a lot of times, CC should give a tactical advantage, but shouldn't mark your grave.

This. CCs are there to create more diversity, to make fights more interesting, not to make players wait ages for them to wear off or even be killed instantly by them. Current gameplay is centered around CCs, you can't win without them. So strong CCs are bad, as it's more or less a competition about who manages to cast the first one (see Miraculix' post (http://regnumonlinegame.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1374727&postcount=7)) and to maintain the chain. No diversity. No, you can't just nerf CC chains, that's almost impossible. Small adjustments won't fix very much, you need to completely revamp CCs. Completely nerfing them is the only solution to get balance out of this critical state and to finally make fights interesting again.

I strongly recommend to nerf all knock-downs to 2-4 seconds on all levels and to make them work just on moving targets. That's the most elegant CC chain prevention. The only elegant one, to be exact.

All other CCs need similar treatments. Some weaker ones that don't disable you completely like knock-downs do may still last for 10 seconds, maybe even longer! (We lack WEAK CCs/spell effects with long duration) But, as you've already said, knock-downs are the biggest problem, it's the most overpowered effect.

And trust me, all players will sooner or later come to like this. No one likes the current situation. (It should even start to be measurable, do user numbers decrease?)


Ps: I agree that we need the old saves, but that's not related to this topic, please don't hijack this important thread.

[Phlue4]

:clapclap:

Nice work!

Mana at marks is not such an issue imo, it would be better to lower their defence. Strategic position moved from marks to hunters would be a good way.
yop.

edit: dont really understand why you want to remove will domain ._. This spell is quite ok.

[isgandarli]

Even without testing i just want you to think about Barbarians tactics:

Spring + UM + Intimidate + Kick = death (According that lvl 60 Barbarians can do 1000-2200 damage per hit)

Second issue is, how Marksman will use Amush on melee range when Melee Ranges Class reaches him (under UM)?

[Dupa_z_Zasady]

[B]

Intimidate: moved to the “Tactics” discipline instead of “Kick”

We’ll have to do minor adjustments to the mana consumption and/or duration of these skills because of the change of place in the discipline. Although Barbarians will lose one of their CC skills, they will earn a slow skill that will allow them to reach their enemies.


Soooo. Barbarians will have spring and intimidate - stupid.
 


Stunning Fist: the effect “Cannot attack” will be replaced either by “Stun” or “cannot cast” (please let us know what you think)


Stunning fist is fine as is now.


Will Domain: this skill is going to be replaced by "Mummify".
Mummify: transforms the objective into a mummy showering its movements. Reduces movement speed and attack speed.


So you add slow spell for barbarians, and slow spell for warlock. How about follow that pattern and repalce all spells with variant of slow.:facepalm3:



Burst of Wind: damage will be removed.


Good.

Winter stroke should have longer casting time.

[DemonMonger]

I went to test and nothing was different.

When will the changes take place on AMUN?

[Raindance]

I went to test and nothing was different.



Balance Update 2011 - Stage 1 - Initial Discussion

[Daretobeconju]

Class: Warrior (Barbs & Knights)

I agree completely with the original suggestions. Giving barbs an area slow in exchange for a knock is a good trade-off. If a barb does the right moves, he can kill a mage of even level in one 8 second knock, but if the mage did all the right moves, the barb will be perhaps reduced strength, perhaps Karma Mirror or Steel Skin will be cast, perhaps attack speed will be slowed. This cuts down the chance of a barb killing in 8 seconds. With an archer, there is less chance of killing in one 8 second knock. It's the two 8 second knocks that ensures the kill.

* Feint: moved to the “vanguard” -knight only- discipline to replace “intimidate”
* Intimidate: moved to the “Tactics” discipline instead of “Kick”
* Kick: Moved to the 1st place of the discipline in place of feint
+1

Clase: Archer (Hunters and Marksmen)

* Ambush: Ambush should stay with hunters. Marks can afford to lose it. Switch Ambush for Ensnaring Arrow. Increase the cd for Ensnaring to 15 sec. Ambush range of 25 I think is also good if only hunter has it.
* Stunning Fist: The original spell is fine, I say leave it.

Class: Mages (Warlocks and Conjurer)

* Will Domain: The original spell is good. The range 20 means you have to go close enough to be within range of Marks' CC's, well within a hunter's reach under Son of the Wind(when it works), and close enough that a warrior has the ability to cast UM and get to you.

Subclass: Marksman

* Burst of Wind: Damage removal is a great idea. It gives groups the ability to DI and get past it. Also, casting the spell won't damage the attacker as they try to get within attack range.
* Mana regen: Slowing the regen of mana sounds like a well-rounded way to subtly nerf a Marks. It affects everything a Marks does. Barbs are left with little mana to work with when fully buffed. A Marks has more mana after buffing, but not nearly as much as a mage. If you want to directly cut down on the overall OP of Marks, cutting mana regen seems like a good way to do it.

[DemonMonger]

It seems that many people are looking at this balance issue from their own personal "class" advantage point of view. We need to focus on every aspect that every little change has on the entire range that game play offers.

NGD gave us a template of what they want to do and only asked our opinion on their chosen topic. So please lets keep the discussion limited to what the focus at hand currently is. The focus that they have given us. IOW - Don't bring up other topics and other skills that NGD did not talk about yet.

This is what we have always asked for. We have been given a chance to be involved in the changes that will take place. Let's see what you all can do in an orderly fashion.

Good luck and thank you NGD for this initial discussion.:clapclap:

* Concerned a bit about giving barb a skill to slow people down.
As is barbs can basically run down almost any person that is not on horseback.
If barbarians gain a ranged slow skill they will be close to 100% Over Powered.
Can you give barbs another skill instead?

[bois]

It seems that many people are looking at this balance issue from their own personal "class" advantage point of view. We need to focus on every aspect that every little change has on the entire range that game play offers.


Fortunately I think the posters are on spot.

*Feint to Vanguard looks good on paper.
*Intimidate for shared tree looks very iffy. Challenge may be the better option if they wanted to swap one. (Easy option)
* Ambush at melee range looks like a very bad idea. 15m seems to be the popular choice.
* Stunning fist as 'stun' is not good idea and 'Cannot Cast ' makes it too weak. Best to leave this alone.
* Will domain is the most balanced of all the knocks. Aside from tiny tweaks in CS and duration this should remain untouched.
* Change to BoW welcomed.
* Most are sceptical about mana regeneration reduction for marks.

Most of the opinions look pretty open minded and non biased. Hopefully NGD will take these opinions on board.

Personally, I would really like to have a go at reduced effect time on all knocks for a start. It is painfully obvious that they are all too long considering all the changes in terms of game speed and stripping away of all your resist/evade/ blocks while under the effect of knock.
Seher had a concept but I am not too sure if I understood it right. I was thinking that Seher suggested that knock be a static figure eg : 2 seconds for all levels and you add a damage factor which scales with the level of the spell. Added to this, knock works on moving targets alone. Once the net code can handle it I am interested in the concept.

[no-body]

* Concerned a bit about giving barb a skill to slow people down.
As is barbs can basically run down almost any person that is not on horseback.
If barbarians gain a ranged slow skill they will be close to 100% Over Powered.
Can you give barbs another skill instead?
Why ? Did you ever try to catch an archer or mage as barb ?
Without onslaught or horn barb with or without spring, have almost no chance to catch archer (if archer doesn't make a mistake).
Mage that casts meteor on barb, slows him, drains his mana, wins against him (after meteor barb can't use um, slow nullifies spring, draining mana makes barb dmg a laugh, kicks and feints useless).
The only class I can think of, that barb can easily catch is knight, but killing him is another story (block block block block ... :P).
Imo slow spell is good trade-off, otherwise barb should be able to cast onslaught on himself or spring duration should be longer.

I don't understand why almost everyone considers barb an OP class ... playing lvl 56 barb frustrates me more than playing hunter or conjurer, because he fails to kill anyone so often (in PvP and RvR).

The ability to combine both skills creates the opportunity for a barbarían, to eliminate its opponent without a chance to get up.
I don't see why this is an issue, imo every class should have at least one tactic to eliminate opponent without receiving much dmg (archers have it, mages also, knights I'm not sure, why not barbs ? :P), and skill points (at lvl 60) should suffice for no more than 2, and at least 1 of such tactics.

[Latan]

i'm really not understanding where these changes are heading.
you (ngd) changed the knock effect giving to the attacker the 100% chance to hit with normals and spells while the target is knocked, then you see that's it's becoming knocking online and what did you do?
1) terror destroied
2) archers with no more knockdown
3) mages with no more knockdown
4) barbarians with 1 less than knights

knockdowns are an essential part of the fight: you can stop a rushing meele, you can stop an enemy who's trying to escape, you can block an enemy combo, you can gain some time to gain more distance, you can assure that your next powerful spell casted while the target is knocked will 100% land...

ok, we have HEAVY issues with knocks atm, but you can't face any balance problem deleting spells and giving copypaste spells (locks without will domain and with a second slow spell will be more vulnerable against archers and more powerfull against meele. archers already have a stun, they really don't need another one to CC chain you forever! now it's really hard to face some classes and this way will be almost impossible).
the REAL issue with knocks is their duration! in a 8 seconds knock, everyone, even buffed, can easy die against 2-3 damage dealers before standing up and with this kind of changes the problem would remain the same: kick/feint (5) = dead

there are many ways to fix the problem instead of deleting al ranged knocks:
1) will domain/ambush: range 20, same casting time/mana cost, duration 1 sec/lvl, CD 40 sec
feint/kick: duration 1 sec/lvl, CD 30 sec.
2) will domain/ambush: range 20, same casting time, 4 sec fixed duration for every lvl, CD: 40 sec, GCD very short or short instead of normal, mana cost that decreases for every level(500/450/400/350/300 will domain) (290/250/210/170/130 ambush) (340/300/260/220/180 feint) (320/280/240/200/160 kick).
3) will domain/ambush: range 20, same casting time, 4 sec fixed duration for every lvl, GCD very short or short instead of normal, CD that decreases every lvl (60/55/50/45/40 ambush and will domain) (50/45/40/35/30 feint and kick).
4) same as above, but with a diversification between kick and feint (maybe one with fixed duration and variable mana and/or CD and the other with a duration that depends from level.
5) areas (thyphoon, rote, terror) with a limited and fixed duration (4 or 5 seconds) but without chance.

we're bored of a luckbased game. player's skills should be rewarded, not player's luck or OP spells

[Llayne]

Why is everyone whining about the duration of rage of the earth? Hardly any barbs even skill it. 90% of the ones that do skill it don't use it worth a dam. Reducing it's duration will ensure that not a single barb skills it. We don't need more skills in the game that no one uses.

[Seher]

Seher had a concept but I am not too sure if I understood it right. I was thinking that Seher suggested that knock be a static figure eg : 2 seconds for all levels and you add a damage factor which scales with the level of the spell. Added to this, knock works on moving targets alone.

Exactly. :) This concept would just need much more creativity to make different spell levels useful, but I don't see a problem there. +10..20..30.. dmg/4..5..6..sec duration is boring anyway.

[DogFish]

Comments in Teal.

Class: Warrior (Barbs & Knights)
Kick has the advantage of damage and being "piggybackable". Feint has the advantage of being Range 0, but the disadvantage of being blocked by Divine Intervention.

I would recommend moving Kick to the Vanguard tree and leaving Feint in tactics. Feint is more difficult to chain than kick, since it uses one attack cycle. Leaving Feint in tactics would give a reason for barbarians to use spear, and also keep in line with all classes having a shared knock that can be blocked by Divine Intervention. Barbarians have several spells, (2ximmbolizes, beast attack, rote) that will not be blocked by DI, and moving kick to knights would achieve the same results as your original intentions.

I'm not sure about moving Intimidate to tactics, I will wait for a change on Amun before commenting on it.

Clase: Archer (Hunters and Marksmen)

Clarifying question: Does melee range refer to the range of a sword/hammer, the range of a spear, or neither?

Ambush: Imagine the following situation, an enemy is attacking one of my realm mates, and I am 20 m away. Let's say the enemy is winning. With a melee ranged ambush what can I do to save my ally? Distracting Shot is potentially canceled by my ally. Freeze, if I'm a marksman, may allow the enemy to escape(UM, SOTW, Sanctuary, low profile...). I can try to kill the enemy quickly, but that makes the game more level and item dependent.

Offensively, changing Ambush to a melee range spell would mean that hunters would have no powers to stop a player(no immobilize or freeze). They have Ensnaring Arrow, but an Immobilize, Freeze, or Knock is often much more effective. This puts hunters at a disadvantage compared to every other class.

Your end goal is to balance the tactical situation between warriors and archers. This would tip the balance towards warriors, especially if Intimidate is given to warriors.

I would instead suggest a reduction in duration, or perhaps something like this (http://www.regnumonline.eu/forum/showpost.php?p=1243009&postcount=1) where the knock effect wears off after a certain amount of damage.

Stunning Fist is melee range making it risky to use against warriors. Stun is likely to be canceled by an ally and "cannot cast" doesn't really help that much against warriors. Stunning Fist is one of the few crowd controls for archers with damage, and thus a counter for Divine Intervention. Stunning Fist is fine in it's current form.

Class: Mages (Warlocks y Conjurer)

Will Domain: See argument for Ambush as to why ranged classes should have ranged knocks. Will domain already has shorter range and much higher mana cost than Feint and Ambush.

I would recommend not changing this power.

Subclass: Masksman
While BoW is extremely annoying, it is a necessity against players who have Divine Intervention. I would instead suggest a reduction in duration.

Winter Stoke is okay because it can help, but also hinder your teams efforts by allowing an enemy to escape. I would recommend an increase in cast time to allow other classes a chance to react and make it harder to chain crowd controls.

[HidraA]

The new ambush should be instant cast, of course.

Best regards!

Archer has allrady 1-1,5 seconds on stop and hit penality or between hits,wile kick can be casted wile runing....
Also if archer or mage is out of mana has penality of hits ,wile warriors dosent have any kind ,they kepp hit wile running.

[DemonMonger]

Why ? Did you ever try to catch an archer or mage as barb ?
yes
Without onslaught or horn barb with or without spring, have almost no chance to catch archer (if archer doesn't make a mistake).
This is not true....
Example:1. Barb casts UM and rushes a hunter
2. hunter casts ensnaring arrow while running from max range
3. barb closes distance with spring
4. ensnare wares off (confuse is pointless at this point)
5. hunter cast mobility + passive to try to gain distance
6. (due to passive reduction and mobility reduction hunter cant escape)
7. hunter cast retaliation and braces for knockdown
8. (as you can see barb already caught the hunter from outside 30 range)
9. (and fist will no longer prevent basic attacks with new changes)
10. (with the additional slow attack from barb it will make it so all get captured 100%)
<end of story>

Mage that casts meteor on barb, slows him, drains his mana, wins against him (after meteor barb can't use um, slow nullifies spring, draining mana makes barb dmg a laugh, kicks and feints useless).
The only class I can think of, that barb can easily catch is knight, but killing him is another story (block block block block ... :P).
Imo slow spell is good trade-off, otherwise barb should be able to cast onslaught on himself or spring duration should be longer.
Slow change things too much for barbs as balance is concerned.

I don't understand why almost everyone considers barb an OP class ... playing lvl 56 barb frustrates me more than playing hunter or conjurer, because he fails to kill anyone so often (in PvP and RvR).
Try a new setup..

I don't see why this is an issue, imo every class should have at least one tactic to eliminate opponent without receiving much dmg (archers have it, mages also, knights I'm not sure, why not barbs ? :P), and skill points (at lvl 60) should suffice for no more than 2, and at least 1 of such tactics.

I agree that every class should have a tactic to eliminate their foes. However, an additional ranged slow skill will not work well with barbs in this game. It was fine with knights because they lost spring.

[Topogigio_BR]

 
Clase: Archer (Hunters and Marksmen)

The tactical situation between Archers and Warriors should play around the difference of range. In normal conditions a warrior that reaches melee range should have a positional advantage.
Because of the different CCs and “counter damage” available in the “Tricks” discipline This theoretical situation does not happen as often as we would like.
The following changes will be introduced with the intention of revert this. siguientes cambios serán introducidos con la intención de revertir la situación mencionada.


Ambush: The range of this spell will be reduced to melee range. This will allow archers to have a CC suited for melee classes (so to gain range for a brief period of time) but not against other ranged classes.
Stunning Fist: the effect “Cannot attack” will be replaced either by “Stun” or “cannot cast” (please let us know what you think)


I see a problem here with reducing ambush range, specialy with Defeating Roar and Howl. For this to work you should at least consider making Defeating roar a 6m radious spell. If you reduce archers range and keep barbs range, speed and damage you focus game even more for a warriors side. If the intention is to populate game with warriors i think is ok.

I think stunning fist is an spell that should not be changed, to avoid redundancy, if changed to stun effect (another dist shot) if changed to cannot cast (another BOW).


Class: Mages (Warlocks y Conjurer)

Based on the previous explanations we propose the following changes:


Will Domain: this skill is going to be replaced by "Mummify".
Mummify: transforms the objective into a mummy showering its movements. Reduces movement speed and attack speed.



So what will be made to locks spell "slow", will be just a redundancy, to have 2 slow spells?

[ironskin]

Stop to nerf hunters plz, we are already too much pissed, if u nerf ambush this is gonna be an huge Fail. So plz do what u want but don't touch hunters, if u can give them back some powers, like much more defense like marksman has or better damage , cause we really suck at it. I wish u aren't gonna touch CCs on hunter, or i'm definitely leaving the game, and like me many more.... so Be careful dear NGD , u have to keep players not to kick them out.... remember that....

[Topogigio_BR]

You shoukd also consider making UM cancels DI and vice-versa.
Should also diminishing barbs regem mana, same way as marks.
Also lowering warriors armour protection and increasing mages at same percentage lets say 10%, would be a good balance

[JayneDutchPred]

The most not needed skill I have as hunter is for me "Camouflage Corps" the skill I miss verry hard is "Track Friends"
And to tactic as hunter - I support only to find enemies but I don't know where my friends are is pointless in a rvr.

[Kitsuni]

This may seem a little radical but consider:

- Leaving Ambush as-is and moving it to a Hunter-only dicipline (Scouting?).
In other words, don't nerf ambush for Hunters.

- Moving Strategic position to Hunters, reduced to 25% at level 5.
Hunters are the defensive subclass.

- Moving Dead eye to Hunters.
Ensnaring arrow being a percentage-based skill they have better use for it than the Marksman does.

- Moving Death sentence back to Marksman, giving +30% ranged damage against a single target for the Marksman only.
It was useful for boosting fixed-damage spells like Serpent bite versus armor.

- Replacing BoW with a 2-3 sec knockdown that Marks can use to save allies for a few seconds. The enemy gets knocked down by a strong gust.
Increasing the level of the spell would increase it's range (15 mtrs base, +5 mtrs per level, 35 mtrs max).

- Increasing the cooldown of Winter stroke to 30 seconds and increase mana cost.
(This is a no-brainer, it is too spammable, too strong, and can actually cause harm to allies more than it helps.)

- Changing Recharged arrows to a fixed damage bonus (fire?) so it is no longer dependant on gear.
Marksman is far too dependant on gear. Some are OP, others aren't.

Just my thoughts about the issues with Marksman and Hunter balance.

[The_Krome_Dragon]

Warrior changes r good.

Archers: ambush is fine as is imo. Confuse needs lower duration.

Mages: Will domain is fine as is.

Overall i like NGD's direction towards CCs:clapclap:

[HuntShot]

The new ambush should be instant cast, of course.

Best regards!

Ah, that's everything I wanted to hear! Well, then ambush would be a very nice spell indeed... no ambush spams anymore!

Yeehaa

[TomdenVinca]

Feint: moved to the “vanguard” -knight only- discipline to replace “intimidate”


Nice idea


Ambush: The range of this spell will be reduced to melee range. This will allow archers to have a CC suited for melee classes (so to gain range for a brief period of time) but not against other ranged classes.


Ambush will be reduced to 5 m




Mana regen: slightly reduced during combat (we’ll add feedback on GUI while “in combat” status)



I don't want changes in mana regen for Makrs

[Kopstoot]

I don't get how the new ambush works. Will it be like how feint works now? If that is the case, I don't agree on the change.

removing the dmg from Burst of wind is a good idea though

I think you should focus on the marksman as a subclass. Because you want to change archers skills, which also affect hunter.

my idea is to make confuse a hunter spell. keep ambush how it is now.

Stunning fist: cannot cast sounds the same as cannot attack for a warlock or conjurer but worse. you can't even buff yourself up. i think it should be changed in another way.

And Wouldnt it be fair to inscrease the range of some offensive spells of warlock.

[ArienN]

Like alot ppl said, reducing the duration of all CC's would be best solution IMHO.

I wonder why you not mentioned Confuse in your initiation post, since its gives your opponent no chance to buff/heal or counter CC's (at least CC's with no dmg) for 15-35 sec.
Reducing the Duration from confuse at all lvls and negate the effect, if cast on knocked target (like dizzy while knocked), should solve this problem.

But you would like to nerf stunning fist, what the only counter for archers vs barbs in melee range is?
Even with barbarian as my main, i would like to reduce the duration of stunning fist and give a 100% chance at all lvls.


Another smart idea IMO would be, to add immunity from knocks after a knock.
The duration of immunity could be fixed (4-6 sec?), or depend on the previous knock duration. This would prevent the knock-knock-knock-spam-with-no-idea-what-else-to-do spammer and GUARANTEE MORE DYNAMIC in this knocknum online :D
Yes, to many battles i watched from the ground, sometimes over 20sec and/or til my death. :angel1:

[andres81]

GUARANTEE MORE DYNAMIC[/COLOR] in this knocknum online :D
Yes, to many battles i watched from the ground, sometimes over 20sec and/or til my death. :angel1:

I already made this suggestion in the spanish section, could be also expand to freezes (e.g. after a freeze a have immunity against freezes for 3 seconds) because getting freezed 3 or 4 times continously is not funny :facepalm3:
4-6 seconds is very long, I would be happy with enough time to cast one contra (2-3sec is enough)

[blood-raven]

This may seem a little radical but consider:

- Leaving Ambush as-is and moving it to a Hunter-only dicipline (Scouting?).
In other words, don't nerf ambush for Hunters.

i can live with it, but i also like the way NGD would make it

- Moving Strategic position to Hunters, reduced to 25% at level 5.
Hunters are the defensive subclass.

Rather have acrobatic a hunter only spell, since marks are ranged specialists it's only natural we have more defence from incomming projectiles or range spells

- Moving Dead eye to Hunters.
Ensnaring arrow being a percentage-based skill they have better use for it than the Marksman does.

Can live with it, it's useless anyway :p

- Moving Death sentence back to Marksman, giving +30% ranged damage against a single target for the Marksman only.
It was useful for boosting fixed-damage spells like Serpent bite versus armor.

Good idea

- Replacing BoW with a 2-3 sec knockdown that Marks can use to save allies for a few seconds. The enemy gets knocked down by a strong gust.
Increasing the level of the spell would increase it's range (15 mtrs base, +5 mtrs per level, 35 mtrs max).

No, this wil make warlocks the most powerfull class ingame and hardly anyone will be able to stop them, the reason marks have a higher ranged dizzy is to balance out the Opness of locks

- Increasing the cooldown of Winter stroke to 30 seconds and increase mana cost.
(This is a no-brainer, it is too spammable, too strong, and can actually cause harm to allies more than it helps.)

Is ok

- Changing Recharged arrows to a fixed damage bonus (fire?) so it is no longer dependant on gear.
Marksman is far too dependant on gear. Some are OP, others aren't.

idk, this can go both ways, have to see it in action

Just my thoughts about the issues with Marksman and Hunter balance.

Comments are fat

@Original post: leave the dmg to BoW, DI would make the lock an unstoppable killing machine, you can tough reduce it's range to 35m, still far higher then the lock but not as annoying.

[HidraA]

This may seem a little radical but consider:

- Leaving Ambush as-is and moving it to a Hunter-only dicipline (Scouting?).
In other words, don't nerf ambush for Hunters.

- Moving Strategic position to Hunters, reduced to 25% at level 5.
Hunters are the defensive subclass.

Someone calculated armors bonuses from marks and hunter and resist at elemental before give a way like that a defencive spell?

Indeed defensive..camo+confuse+ambus 5+cb +3-4xhits of 500+normals with fast bow+rapid shot...wtv....


- Moving Dead eye to Hunters.
Ensnaring arrow being a percentage-based skill they have better use for it than the Marksman does.


If hunter will give me the Cold Blood i will give my dead eye that is useless anyway.


- Moving Death sentence back to Marksman, giving +30% ranged damage against a single target for the Marksman only.
It was useful for boosting fixed-damage spells like Serpent bite versus armor.


Hmm duno about DS....lots of ppl complaint in old days about.


- Replacing BoW with a 2-3 sec knockdown that Marks can use to save allies for a few seconds. The enemy gets knocked down by a strong gust.
Increasing the level of the spell would increase it's range (15 mtrs base, +5 mtrs per level, 35 mtrs max).


I have no issue with removing dmg from bow...my concern is about warlocks that will spamm Meteor....i think better make longer CD for Meteor ,in curent state is a circle that can keep you dizzy forever....


- Increasing the cooldown of Winter stroke to 30 seconds and increase mana cost.
(This is a no-brainer, it is too spammable, too strong, and can actually cause harm to allies more than it helps.)


Agree...


- Changing Recharged arrows to a fixed damage bonus (fire?) so it is no longer dependant on gear.
Marksman is far too dependant on gear. Some are OP, others aren't.


Need to test this...st least to calculate armors resist by class.
Maybe for some classes is good ...but for others to be bad...and give advantage to a certain class.

[53453467734534]

One of my older posts, which i consider as crucial:

"Another important thing is:

You can actually defeat an army larger than yours, with superior teamplay,
a well coordinated rush, or a surprise attack (for example: under stalker surroundings).
AEs of all sorts are extremely important here, CC efffects too
It is further crucial, that you can weaken your enemy by killing more and more players in each attack, even if you are losing the battle.
That´s why it isn´t a bad thing at all if someone can kill multiple enemies, if everything is done perfectly.
That´s why it isn´t a bad thing, that someone (or a whole group) can be taken out of the battle for some time.

I generally like the way it is done now, it is really possible to defeat a considerably larger army in your fort. There are limits of course. If the zergs are to many,more and more people of the outnumbered realm will "surrender" and everything is lost. If this is happening to often people will cease to play the game, and things will get even worse.

Because the battles will always be asymetric in RO, this is an important thing to consider by balancing everything in this game. There has to be a wide margin, where smaller armies can defeat larger armies. This game has to be balnced in a different way than DotA, competitive Counter Strike,... for example, where both "armies" are even."

"Offensive beacon" was (is) close to be a gamebreaker in this regard.
Apart from that CCs are fun in general, simple "Hack & Slay" is absolutely not cool. Knockdowns are particularly needed in front of the door as well.
Balance the game but do not erase functionality.
Invent other/new interesting "effect spells", create situational (no general and durable All-in-One spells like "Offensive Beacon") Anti-CC spells, enhance or patch unused skills/spells, these things...

[HidraA]

Referal Armor calculator

http://kit.snuggly1.com/

Marksman calculation point for a lvl 50 armor:

http://fulga.u-s.ro/fotos/marksman_png.png

Hunter calculation for a lvl 50 armor:

http://fulga.u-s.ro/fotos/hunter_png.png

A normal hunter armor complete set for lvl 50 has very good protection VS piercing that is +30% bonus vs piercing and has total points 1067 and 533 damage resist.

A normal marksman armor complete set for lvl 50 has bad protection VS piercing that is -15% bonus vs piercing and has total points 747 and 373 damage resist.

Diference Marksman -45% lower resist at piercing than a hunter.

Keep in your mind all bows have base of dmg piercing and not other kind of dmg.

So think twice before give a way Strategic position.....all hunters and marks hater will be happy.

But think a bit more what will happen when hunter will get other +30% resistance....even with all bufs from marx will not be able to make normals dmg from hunter and on hunter.

So if a hunter will have all dmg items with piercing will nuke a marks in a few hits...some kind a new exploit.
+SS and confuse will be unstopable.

[Vroek]

All new armor drops have random resists.

If you buy WM armor for actually use, then you can easily compensate flaws with the extra resist slots.

[HidraA]

..... extra resist slots.

That is premium only.....

[Latan]

A normal hunter armor complete set for lvl 50 has very good protection VS piercing that is +30% bonus vs piercing and has total points 1067 and 533 damage resist.

A normal marksman armor complete set for lvl 50 has bad protection VS piercing that is -15% bonus vs piercing and has total points 747 and 373 damage resist.

1) the cap level is 60, not 50
2) armors now have random protection
3) good/very good is no more 15%/30% from AGES

you're talking about another game

[Vroek]

That is premium only.....

Im fairly sure none want to use WM armor if they dont use the slots, they rather use any armor drop (with random resists) they can find.

[no-body]

Without onslaught or horn barb with or without spring, have almost no chance to catch archer (if archer doesn't make a mistake).
This is not true....
Example:

1. Barb casts UM and rushes a hunter
2. hunter casts ensnaring arrow while running from max range
3. barb closes distance with spring
4. ensnare wares off (confuse is pointless at this point)
5. hunter cast mobility + passive to try to gain distance
6. (due to passive reduction and mobility reduction hunter cant escape)
7. hunter cast retaliation and braces for knockdown
8. (as you can see barb already caught the hunter from outside 30 range)
9. (and fist will no longer prevent basic attacks with new changes)
10. (with the additional slow attack from barb it will make it so all get captured 100%)
<end of story>
It's true, your example is invalid - hunter made a mistake, instead of running away, he started attacking barb with ensnaring arrow, and casted mobility too late.
UM lasts only 10s, Spring also (+25% speed). Mobility (+10% speed) lasts 20s, and Wild Spirit (+7% speed) is passive skill, so it works all the time.
Let assume the archer stands at min-max distance of 20 from barb, and their base speed is the same, and equal 1m/s.
When Hunter runs away (without shooting ensnaring arrow) from barb, he can easily keep distance of 19m (and barb can do damage in range of at most 8).
Here are equations I used: http://mathbin.net/64269
and here are two charts:
- hunter and barbarian distance from initial point over time:
http://i.imgur.com/yZHey.jpg (http://imgur.com/yZHey)
- their distance to each other:
http://i.imgur.com/pIzl2.jpg (http://imgur.com/pIzl2)
as you can see barbarian has no chance catching a hunter if the hunter makes no mistake (e.g. starts running away with mobility as soon as he sees the barb).

I agree that every class should have a tactic to eliminate their foes. However, an additional ranged slow skill will not work well with barbs in this game.
I also gave other suggestions. If feint is going to be removed and not replaced by slow spell, make onslaught castable on caster, or spring duration longer.

[HuntShot]

It's true, your example is invalid - hunter made a mistake, instead of running away, he started attacking barb with ensnaring arrow, and casted mobility too late.
UM lasts only 10s, Spring also (+25% speed). Mobility (+10% speed) lasts 20s, and Wild Spirit (+7% speed) is passive skill, so it works all the time.
Let assume the archer stands at min-max distance of 20 from barb, and their base speed is the same, and equal 1m/s.
When Hunter runs away (without shooting ensnaring arrow) from barb, he can easily keep distance of 19m (and barb can do damage in range of at most 8).
Here are equations I used: http://mathbin.net/64269
and here are two charts:
- hunter and barbarian distance from initial point over time:
http://i.imgur.com/yZHey.jpg (http://imgur.com/yZHey)
- their distance to each other:
http://i.imgur.com/pIzl2.jpg (http://imgur.com/pIzl2)
as you can see barbarian has no chance catching a hunter if the hunter makes no mistake (e.g. starts running away with mobility as soon as he sees the barb).


I also gave other suggestions. If feint is going to be removed and not replaced by slow spell, make onslaught castable on caster, or spring duration longer.


Blablabla, numbers numbers etc. this is how it works on paper.. Let's see how it works in game... totally different

[tjanex]

The problem is that mobility is totally crap, long CD for only a few +% speed. While Barbs can spam their spring, and as Hunter I don't just want to run away, I want to kill something...

Also the new Ambush is pretty crappy, how on earth do we have to hit a rushing barb with his kick that is instant, this is how it works in-game I think:

Barb rushes, Hunter turns around, too late! Instant Kick kaboom Hunt on the ground --> rape!

[no-body]

While Barbs can spam their spring, and as Hunter I don't just want to run away, I want to kill something...
I think you are forgetting that hunter is defensive class - he shouldn't aim to kill a prepared barb (unless it's low lvl / very easy or unchallenging :P). His best weapon is surprise attack from camo (kill grinders using ambush, dual shot/shield piercing, and ensnaring arrow, etc.).

Also the new Ambush is pretty crappy
I agree with this.

Barb rushes, Hunter turns around, too late! Instant Kick kaboom Hunt on the ground --> rape!
That's the case only when hunter gets too close to barb, at distance 20 hunter has enough time to turn around, cast mobility and run away.



Blablabla, numbers numbers etc. this is how it works on paper.. Let's see how it works in game... totally different
blablabla

[krokkiland]

they need to nerf DI too, it becomes to OP .
instead of immunity to non-damaging powers , make it 15% - 25% -35 % - 55% - 75% per lvl resist against non - damaging powers .

second thing is mobility : give it more % movement speed or give it less cd and downgrade spring .

confuse needs to changed to a few secs each lvl like : 2-3-5-7-9

winter stroke doesnt needs to be changed . people get crazy by the always freezing noob marks.

[Llayne]

I see a lot of bias based on what class people play most. Please try to stay unbiased in suggestions.

[NSer]

Ok,won't quote original post but:
Moving feint to Vanguard? No, better move there kick. Barbs anyways will still have 2 area knocks. RANGED slow spell for barb? are u crazy? as mentioned better knock-from-horse spell from Vanguard. Melee ambush? no thnks it will purely useless then. Better 10-20 range. Don't touch stunning fist. It's currently the only archer's СС(except confuse) that ignore beacon And we already got stun and cannot cast spell WITH range. Please! Don't touch will domain. mages already enjoy it's high cost(compared to other knockdowns) and GCD. And another stupid debuff that nobody will use? WHY? About BoW:+1 if DI get modified also. mana consumption..... don't know need test On Whole СС topic:as mentioned before СС should be tactical thing,THAT ALLOW FIGHT BACK,not grave if worked.

I think it's all i wanted to say before test (can't test it at the moment).

[Mattdoesrock]

RANGED slow spell for barb? are u crazy? as mentioned better knock-from-horse spell from Vanguard.

It's borderline useless as it is.

People are over reacting.

[HidraA]

I think you are forgetting that hunter is defensive class - he shouldn't aim to kill a prepared barb (unless it's low lvl / very easy or unchallenging :P). His best weapon is surprise attack from camo (kill grinders using ambush, dual shot/shield piercing, and ensnaring arrow, etc.).


Who told Hunter is a defensive class ?!! :)
Maybe people forgot that 3 years of camo+confuse +trolls ...was not a second defensive one...
Unfortunally i am afraid neighter NGD don't know what kind of class is a hunter.
A knight ,yes ..you can tell is a defensive one.

[NSer]

Yes, it's offtopic, but still:
IMO main problems of hunters that they mix 2 different roles in themselves:rogue-assassin(camo/cb/etc.) and support with tracks/stalker(sometimes death sentence(ok,never)). In result we getting strange class that can support his realm with tracks AND use those tracks to track grinders and using camo/ambush/cb/etc. gank 'em.
I don't really play hunter but it's how situation seems for me.

[Minorian]

It's borderline useless as it is.

People are over reacting.

This. I can rarely find a use for it right now, even without a speed boost.

[UmarilsStillHere]

It's borderline useless as it is.


Agreed. I used it on my knight for about 2 days before giving up on it. Maybe it'll have more use combined with spring but its not doing anything disable limb can't do better.

[bois]

It's borderline useless as it is.

People are over reacting.

Also agree. A measly 10% for level 5 that must be casted over and over to have any kind of knock on effect. I cannot see barbs wanting to skill this. Knights barely skill it now. If not intimidate what is left to move? Challenge and rigorous preparation. Not good options in my view.

I still say formulate an all new tactic spell based on Attack Speed debuff and leave intimidate where it is. Retire Rigorous preparation, stick challenge in that slot and move feint to slot 1 where challenge was.

[Dupa_z_Zasady]

Agreed. I used it on my knight for about 2 days before giving up on it. Maybe it'll have more use combined with spring but its not doing anything disable limb can't do better.

I agree intimidate sucks for knights but, it has _range_. That means, it will lower mind push and ensnearing arrow effects, so mages and hunters in fact will have even smaller chances against barbarians, that are the fastest class already.

[PT_DaAr_PT]

I do not see how useless Intimidate is, I find it very useful to slow enemies down for my allies. I don't have any other kind of speed boost so it's the only way for my knight to catch runners too. I'd like Spring back though, but saying Intimidade is useless is really not true.

[Awrath]

I do not see how useless Intimidate is, I find it very useful to slow enemies down for my allies. I don't have any other kind of speed boost so it's the only way for my knight to catch runners too. I'd like Spring back though, but saying Intimidade is useless is really not true.

Agreed. I may not be able to keep up with archers and barbs as a knight, however if I have allies nearby and I am in range of intimidate, I will use intimidate then onslaught my allies. If I am on my own, then I still have the possibility of catching a runner thanks to the brief period for which Intimidate stacks, finally (when I catch up and get in melee range :p) I can use disable limb to pretty much negate the point of running and proceed to attack. Intimidate has certainly been a useful spell for me.

The main point people are making is that in combination with spring, intimidate starts to become more useful than it is on knights who no longer have a speed buff.

[UmarilsStillHere]

Ok it has some use :)

In situations such as vs mind push.

However in group situations it's still far from the best slow spell. Maybe you're knight is the only one in range to cast a cc on an enemy but that's a rare situation.

For slow downs its not really doing anything that Ensnare or Slow aren't doing better. And then spells like ivy, winter stroke, ambush (for now) and so on are all doing a better job of stopping an enemy so you're allies (mainly warriors most of the time) can catch them. If they're not already destroyed by ranged attacks when the warriors get there.

Also, most of the situations where anyone uses a CC spell on someone so 'their allies can catch them' are situations where said enemy, or likely every enemy are running for the hills, and having played warriors and ranged class's in those situations its pretty clear those CC's are not making much difference, as a warrior most enemy's are shot to death before you reach them, as a ranger you can clearly see warriors running around trying to get a hit on something, sometimes I'll throw a CC to help them out but deep down I know all that's really doing is letting them at a few rp/xp points, 90% of the time that guy would have been dead 4 second later regardless of if I'd let those warriors catch him or if the rangers had just had a bit longer to shoot.

So sure, there are situations where you can use intimidate, but few where it's making any significant difference, and fewer still where other spells from other class's couldn't do it better.

[Ronso]

Her people from the NGD studio sets, but first the altars back to their old seats back to make it back to the Germans, more servers are further battles

[Torcida]

I think you are forgetting that hunter is defensive class -


I think this Hunter is a defensive class thingy-argument is totally invalid I think NGD didn't want too give archers a defensive and offensive at all but they were forced too because they did the same thing with mages and warriors With mages and warriors you can understand that there is a offensive and defensive subclass warriors; The Tank and the Epic damage guy Mages; The healer and the Epic Spells guy makes sense doesn't it Archers; The guy who pwns you from epic range and the guy that sneaks up behind you and kills you. Both sound offensive don't they? A archer simply CANT have a defensive subclass So I think that we have to judge hunters and marksmens equally and I think that claimes like ;'' A hunter shouldn't get this spell because Hunters are defensive!'' is total bullshit

[DemonMonger]

I think this Hunter is a defensive class thingy-argument is totally invalid I think NGD didn't want too give archers a defensive and offensive at all but they were forced too because they did the same thing with mages and warriors With mages and warriors you can understand that there is a offensive and defensive subclass warriors; The Tank and the Epic damage guy Mages; The healer and the Epic Spells guy makes sense doesn't it Archers; The guy who pwns you from epic range and the guy that sneaks up behind you and kills you. Both sound offensive don't they? A archer simply CANT have a defensive subclass So I think that we have to judge hunters and marksmens equally and I think that claimes like ;'' A hunter shouldn't get this spell because Hunters are defensive!'' is total bullshit

+1
Also NGD gave hunters bonus to attack from CAMO.

So when talking about hunter vs marksman it to me seems we have
marksman = range + power
hunter = speed + guile
both are attack classes

The changes to ambush slightly worry me for another reason.
If a hunter has a pet and wants to do battle, they will no longer be able to ambush first then attack. The hunter will have to use distracting shot then run to the enemy as the pet moves in to attack. Then the hunter will have to use fist (but wait new fist will allow enemy to use basic attacks but not skills). <--- pet will get raped no matter what with the new changes. You will almost always need to use beast skin to hunt someone that has more than 50% life, or risk losing the pet.

[TheOnlyAmasar]

taking away will domain for mages is stupid, they only have one knock down as it is, and its low range, no damage, i can accept the rest of the changes, but then i don't play those classes so thats easy for me to say


i'd rather you nerf will domains cooldown, mana cost, or something other than take it away, warlocks already have slow, why would they need another slow? and conjs dont' have enough offensive spells as it is, but i don't play a conj very much and only as support so, again easy for me to say

[DemonMonger]

Ok

So we will not have anymore ranged knockdowns for mages and archers.

Terror doesnt count...

[Torcida]

Ok

So we will not have anymore ranged knockdowns for mages and archers.

Terror doesnt count...

How come you are so sure? ;o Didn't really see NGD giving us some feedback yet.

[maximus-decimus]

The fastest class get to slow down the others?

The marklsman is imba and still keeps the range, for PvP he will still be used as a hunter.

The hunter looses its CCs, so its getting totally useless.

And the mage gets a mummifying instead of will domain, so the barbarians can easyly slow you down + catch you, when they are mummified.

You think these changes will change anything?

Archers loose 1 CC, no hunters you will see on the servers, marksmen will be crying only one or two weeks then they have found the new way to keep distance. Mages loose one spell to keep a running melee away fom itself.

No one of you guys seems to play this game.... Embarrasing that these changes are the result of your thinking

[VeterKh]

Balance Update: Crowd Controls

Clase: Archer (Hunters and Marksmen)

The tactical situation between Archers and Warriors should play around the difference of range. In normal conditions a warrior that reaches melee range should have a positional advantage.
Because of the different CCs and “counter damage” available in the “Tricks” discipline This theoretical situation does not happen as often as we would like.
The following changes will be introduced with the intention of revert this. siguientes cambios serán introducidos con la intención de revertir la situación mencionada.


Ambush: The range of this spell will be reduced to melee range. This will allow archers to have a CC suited for melee classes (so to gain range for a brief period of time) but not against other ranged classes.
Stunning Fist: the effect “Cannot attack” will be replaced either by “Stun” or “cannot cast” (please let us know what you think)




not for hunter ... hunter dont have same dmg like marksman

for all other - sounds good!

[tjanex]

Meeeh I give up playing Hunter like this... When does NGD opens his eyes and sees Hunters need some balance as well... Nerfing our pets was fine, I aggreed with that, but nerfing camo (no pets in camo), nerfing mobillity, nerfing passive speed, nerfing dmg, nerfing ambush now...

Do you see a 80kg dude with a sword as long as himself running after a 60kg weighting guy with a little bow with almost 0 armor and catch him up? Nah me neither... :rale:

[Seher]

Jeez... Balance updates now shouldn't be about overpowered and underpowered classes. There are still far too many conceptual problems that require radical fixes! And those fixes would, obviously, cause a nice chaos again. There's just not the time for small steps now, every real fix will nullify them anyway.

Just to mention one of those problems:
Ah well , shared tree disease strikes again.

And another one is - oh surprise - CCs. An 8 seconds knockdown, even a 5 seconds one, is always overpowered. Not when the old movement system was still there, but now, with the increase of mobility and speed, it certainly is.

(Or hunters... they still lack a definition what they should actually be, there's no way you can balance that with small steps. Or the balance problem with spells, level 37 mages deal just as much damage as level 60 ones. Or... The list seems endless, small steps?! Wtf?)

[Topogigio_BR]

I think you are forgetting that hunter is defensive class - he shouldn't aim to kill a prepared barb (unless it's low lvl / very easy or unchallenging :P). His best weapon is surprise attack from camo (kill grinders using ambush, dual shot/shield piercing, and ensnaring arrow, etc.).

If hunters shouldn't aim to kill, they should aim to scape(run), but now, and even worst with new changes, they are not able to do any of this.

[bois]

Jeez... Balance updates now shouldn't be about overpowered and underpowered classes. There are still far too many conceptual problems that require radical fixes! And those fixes would, obviously, cause a nice chaos again. There's just not the time for small steps now, every real fix will nullify them anyway.

Just to mention one of those problems:


And another one is - oh surprise - CCs. An 8 seconds knockdown, even a 5 seconds one, is always overpowered. Not when the old movement system was still there, but now, with the increase of mobility and speed, it certainly is.

(Or hunters... they still lack a definition what they should actually be, there's no way you can balance that with small steps. Or the balance problem with spells, level 37 mages deal just as much damage as level 60 ones. Or... The list seems endless, small steps?! Wtf?)

Of course I agree with you 100%. Does NGD have the belly for such changes? Or is the handyman secret weapon the 'duct tape ' fix. Knock is a serious problem . Actually, the gradually increasing duration system on ALL CC effects is the problem. That system of 1,2,3,4,5 duration will have to be scrapped. I consider it to be a conceptual problem.

I thought about your ideas Seher, and a fixed duration knock is probably the most valuable and ingenious idea I have ever seen regarding this CC. Two or 3 seconds no matter the level and another component be it damage or debuff (varies with class) to partner it. That has to be the best solution. It is probably the only solution.The game has reached the point where we do not need long duration, all in one KO crowd controls.
Why try to force and balance durations when other components would be easier to scale? If this is done then skill setup, experience, armour, weapons and tactics will be more important that who can hit their cc chain first. In that way CC will not mark your grave stone.

I don't know if others see it yet but NGD is actually making SLOW the next OP and ridiculously irritating/frustrating CC. It is already borderline and any new moves will push it over the fence. I am sure most of you see it already. Slow will take the number 1 slot on the hate list of CC soon enough if they keep this direction.

We shall see how they go. NGD I suggest you take a good few months to finish these balance rounds. It is that important to the game going forward.

[UmarilsStillHere]

kill grinders using ambush, dual shot/shield piercing, and ensnaring arrow, etc.

Wow those are some mighty spells right there! And killing grinders is mega fun, particularly all those grinders in the middle of fort wars, nice to see hunters have a place in the games central feature :)

I don't have a hunter, and I've suffered under several iterations of hunters when they were at assorted levels of overpoweredness. But right now its a busted class.

They are defensive? Marks have higher armour and better damage prevention spells. Most of the hunters CC/debuff ability's are in tricks, and thus shared with marksmen.
They are offensive? What hunter wouldn't swap 'dual shot/shield piercing (shared spells in separate trees!!), and ensnaring arrow' for Ethereal Arrow, Serpent Bite, and Winter Stroke?

It's flailing in the middle with little to no purpose. And need a redefinition or at least drastic refinement of their role. No one wants to grind a hunter to 60 and find all its good for is killing low-hp grinders in 3 shots or running away from people.

[Topogigio_BR]

I see a lot of bias based on what class people play most. Please try to stay unbiased in suggestions.

I try not to be biased. But the way many ppl seems to think is to turn game in just who do more damage. Making a game only for knights and barbs.

Ranged classes need ccs to keep warriors away, or they need an incredible boost in damage to compete with warriors damage. For ranges to keep distance CC's in that classes need to be in more variety and more strong than warriors one (more time). Maybe knocks are really strong, cannot cast are really strong for mages too, so i think rangers should have strong stunt, immobilize, freeze, slow and cannot attack CC's. Specially strong freeze and stunt, cos the way they work makes it impossible to do a second attack while they effects are on, turning into REAL making distance spells.

Instead of making all this changes, why not just switch places, cooldown, and casting time betwen dist. shot and ambush. So ambush will be a lvl17 spell with 60 sec cooldown and 1 sec casting time.

Same way i would trade rigourous preparation or challenging for feint.

will domain goes to splinter wall position while splinter wall goes to lock elemental tree and freezy goes to lvl11 mental tree.

Just changing places, cooldown and casting time would be enough to do a lot of changes in CC's spells.

[Minorian]

They are offensive? What hunter wouldn't swap 'dual shot/shield piercing (shared spells in separate trees!!), and ensnaring arrow' for Ethereal Arrow, Serpent Bite, and Winter Stroke?



I, as a marksmen, would trade Ethereal and Serpent for Ens alone, although I might be unwilling to give away Winter Stroke :p

[VeterKh]

I think you are forgetting that hunter is defensive class - he shouldn't aim to kill a prepared barb (unless it's low lvl / very easy or unchallenging :P). His best weapon is surprise attack from camo (kill grinders using ambush, dual shot/shield piercing, and ensnaring arrow, etc.).
blablabla

and you never will see, i said NEVER, hunter in battle near you ... same Dying out kind "Conjurer"... you will never hunt with hunter...

i'm playing barbarian and hunter.... barbarian changes - good, for hunter - very bad...

[Daretobeconju]

I think this is what everyone has complained about and what NGD is trying to fix:

Barb: UM/Spring, Kick/Feint, and opponent dead.
Lock: Meteor, Slow(if warrior), DoT DoT, Will Domain, DoT Dot, Frozen Storm or Freeze or Mind Push, get distance, Will Domain, DoT Dot, etc. Opponent is dead.
Marks: BoW, hit hit, Ambush, hit hit, freeze, runs to get range, rinse and repeat. Opponent dies.

With new proposed changes all offensive classes lose their guaranteed win combos. That is a plus, but the down sides to the changes create other issues for other classes.

I agree with Barb proposal overall. Now they have to work harder to get the kill. I think the ranged slow does not make them OP because even if they get to you, they are not ensured the kill because they cannot chain cc as well. They still retain melee range advantage.

I think there are enough counters to Lock cc's that if a Lock other than Heph is killing you consistently, you are unlucky or have bad timing:
With barb, UM counters Meteor and Spring almost counters slow(-5%). You can cover the 30m distance from Meteor range with UM/Spring with only 10% chance of being cc'd. Counter Mind Push with Deafening Roar and you have all the time in the world to buff and get behind the lock for huge dmg before you kick. Then kick and be done with them. This is not a guaranteed barb win as the lock can create more distance by strafing and try to outlast your UM, but with the addition of a ranged slow for barb, it makes for a better fight.
A Marks has SotW, so they can resist lock cc's for a longer duration while casting their own.
I still don't think Will Domain should change at all. Nobody dies in 8 seconds from a lock.

Removing dmg from BoW seems like a winner. As Marks, it isn't the dmg that I cast it for, its the 11 sec dizzy. I agree Marks need to lose the Ambush, but I don't think Hunters should. I still think switch Ambush with Ensnaring Arrow and nerf Ensnaring. That way Hunter still has the full knock. It allows Marks a chance to keep their much needed distance, but does not prevent barbs from using Spring to counter. It even allows a Lock the chance to rush during BoW. If Lock charges, 11 sec BoW gets followed by only 6 sec Winter Stroke, and the Marks has to make sure they are more than 30m from Lock to keep their advantage.

Hunters need ambush and stunning fist. It is the basis for all attacks from hunter. Ambush/Confuse/Hit Hit/Stunning Fist/Cold Blood, or something like that. If a Hunter cannot come out of camo and kill an unbuffed person, they have less purpose. They certainly don't have any adVantage in an open field against someone who is buffed.
Keep Ambush and Stunning Fist as they are, just move Ambush to Ensnaring Arrow position.

I play conju 60/lock 60/barb 44 and have played my gf's marks 60/hunter 60. The only class I know little about it knight, but nothing here seems to benefit/harm knight. With these slight alterations, I believe every class keeps its own advantages, but with skill, any other class can get past them(*exception conju).

I see no reason to complain if you die because 2 or more people kill you during a knock. 2 or more vs 1 would have killed you regardless.

[fred1011010110]

readin all thise coments all i gotta is say is ya lets fkn switch n swap all the op spells from op classes 2 weak ones ya lets make 1 big fkn mess.

ffs be creative

-fred1011010110

[Llayne]

It seems like a big concern but tbh I don't see many barbs skilling intimidate. I could be wrong but for me I feel it would be a waste of points

[bois]

Question remains. Will musical chairs switching of spells actually solve anything or just push problems under the carpet?

It is the simplest thing but will it solve the problems once and for all? Or does the game need earth shattering changes?

I personally think 5 seconds knock is too much. For any class and any knock. If we used the scale a,b,c,d,e, then we would end up with at minimum 2,3,4,5,6 to make sense. 2,2,3,3,4 could make sense if it has a partner component that scales properly. That would be a bitch to balance.

Remember what knock is .
An immobilize
A 100% debuff of evade, resist, block, (miss)
A cannot attack
A cancel attack

Could a static Knock duration solve it? I think it could.

Consider some crazy options (just hypothetical not actual application, don't go crazy on the numbers they are not real)

Kick at 2 seconds Knock level 1 -5> Partner debuff: strength reduction (2,3,4,5,6) for 10 seconds. Has damage component.

Feint at 2 seconds Knock level 1-5 > Partner debuff : weapon damage reduction (2,3,4,5,6) for 15 seconds. No damage component

Ambush at 3 seconds Knock level 1-5 > Partner debuff : Elemental damage (protection) reduction on target (2,3,4,5,6%) for 20 seconds. No damage component

Will domain at 4 seconds Knock level 1-5 > Partner debuff : physical damage (protection) reduction on target (2,3,4,5,6%) for 20 seconds. No damage component.

Now I know people like to harp on figures and spells. What I put above is to show a principle and not actual spells. The numbers are completely random and the debuffs are totally random as well. Don't discuss them as if they are spells to be delivered as I wrote them.
The principle is that the knock being powerful component remains static and the partner component being weaker (allowing other player options) can be the one that scales.
I hope I explained it in a way that most can see where I am coming from. Of course this is born from Seher's concept which I consider to be quite solid.

Regards

[Seher]

Of course I agree with you 100%. Does NGD have the belly for such changes?

I hope so. They've had in the past, the last balance update was great and radical, and I had high hopes for Regnum. Then warmasters came. :/

Actually, the gradually increasing duration system on ALL CC effects is the problem. That system of 1,2,3,4,5 duration will have to be scrapped. I consider it to be a conceptual problem.

Me, too. There are many interesting spell effects that are just nearly impossible to implement because of this system. There's no point in keeping it, we need something new.
I've started a thread about this. (http://regnumonlinegame.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1377196) Your workaround would work, too, (especially with shorter cool downs per level!) but it remains somehow dirty.

What I think the balance stages should look like:
1. CC fix, coupled with a spell level fix
2. Armor fix (http://regnumonlinegame.com/forum/showthread.php?t=76545): Absolute damage reduction makes balance unnecessarily hard and causes items to be REALLY overpowered for faster-attacking classes
3. Finally a definition of hunters, something besides pets and camo that differs them from marksmen. (I prefer my own suggestion (http://regnumonlinegame.com/forum/showthread.php?t=76831) obviously :P but any proper definition will do)
4. Somehow get the game to work again. :P Those changes above would for sure break everything you can break, and that's the stage in which classes should be made similarly strong via adjusting damage output etc. Smaller steps are better here, but JUST here. The "too many points"-problem for level 60s should be solved here as well.

Such an update would make me an addict again. xD Could be a bit too much though, but none of those points can really be postponed, everything's a critical issue. (Well except for the armor fix, maybe...)

[Topogigio_BR]

It seems like a big concern but tbh I don't see many barbs skilling intimidate. I could be wrong but for me I feel it would be a waste of points

I see. If in the changed they turned defeating roar and howl to 6m radius spells. And if they dont do this barbs will be just run to kill.

[Darcyeti]

Sorry for being half off topic now, but I have an important question concerning this discussion.

Is NGD interessted in opinions from german users which are not registered at this forum?

We had a thread started by a usere about your plans to discuss like we all are doing here in german gamigo forum. This thread has been deleted without any comment because it's forbidden by gamigo to start threads about plans, changelogs etc "not officially announced by NGD" what meens, if gamigo has gotten no email from NGD, we can't discuss important things like this.

It seems that gamigo does not want us to be part of a discussion which can change the way Regnum is going to get.

I would love to have some NGD official answering me.

regards

[Latan]

I personally think 5 seconds knock is too much.

maybe for warriors and archers because they use normal hits, but mages can only count on their spells, so you have to subtract 2 seconds because of normal GCD, so you should have 3 "real" seconds where you can cast something upon the enemy, that is one spell when the enemy is on the ground and another just before he stands up and fights back

[ironskin]

i think just about what end will hunters have... atm this unlucky class counts alot on ambush, so he can cast debuffs and Dots if needed, and keep far warriors. How the **** do u think an hunter can stop a barb now? stunning fist sucks, ambush is nomore. try to stop a barb running at 25% with UM activated that hits u for 900 normals while running..... Dear NGD this is gonna be another gret fail , becareful or u can lose other players, that isn't what i want, but i think i'm gonna quit too if u don't make any "good updates" for "all Classes" and not only for the usual locks, marks , barbs.... Intimidate on barb ? okay but don't nerf ambush dears, i can't stop my enemy, or better i can't survive. So watch out well for what are u gonna do, listen to players , they are playing cause they like the game, and the last 3 updates killed the 50% of them.... maybe a fourth can give the final cut...

[bois]

maybe for warriors and archers because they use normal hits, but mages can only count on their spells, so you have to subtract 2 seconds because of normal GCD, so you should have 3 "real" seconds where you can cast something upon the enemy, that is one spell when the enemy is on the ground and another just before he stands up and fights back

GCD could be modified, if needed mages can have a 5 second knock if they needed. In such a case DoTs cancel knock to make things interesting. Make hit chance reductions actually work so mages have a potential second mitigation layer in the form of blindness, curse etc. In such a case, blindness and curse works differently in that once you successfully hit spells like these before you get knocked, they actually return your evade, miss chance under knock.
There are many things that can be done without making mages dependent on having to hit a long knock. The fact that a mage would only be knocked for 2 -3 seconds may work in their favour too. Knock is just the first part. The whole picture is not about knock , I just happens to be the worst of the lot right now.

[Llayne]

I don't play any archers but I can see how hunters will be totally screwed by the change to ambush. Marksmen can handle the change but I don't see how a hunter will survive. I hope that if you do change ambush that it has a 10m range at least.

[bois]

I don't play any archers but I can see how hunters will be totally screwed by the change to ambush. Marksmen can handle the change but I don't see how a hunter will survive. I hope that if you do change ambush that it has a 10m range at least.

10 won't work. It has to be 15 at least.

[PT_DaAr_PT]

If it's going to be instant, then Ambush can be casted while moving and I find that wonderful. Can't wait to test it.

[pauluzz]

leave ambush as it is... and make winter stroke mele range?

[Torcida]

Why is NGD nerfing all the classes anyway? the only classes that were overpowered are marksmen and barbarians...

[_Emin_]

Marks are OP because of the new mana regen + range, imo bring the old bows back, and it will be fine again. Every class benefited from the new mana regen so it will be stupid if marks will have their old mana regen back. and winterstroke should have 40 sec cd( i think everyone agree with this)

[Pwnography]

Why is NGD nerfing all the classes anyway? the only classes that were overpowered are marksmen and barbarians...

They are nerfing CC's, because cc's are op, not the classes themselves.

[Wes_]

I'm interested to see these changes come into effect. But what I don't understand is that everytime that skills get balanced, confuse is somehow completely ignored. I agree with many other people that the duration is a little long, but what I think makes confuse really overpowered is how it's usually chained with ambush. That's what makes getting jumped by a camoed hunter so damn annoying, not fun, unchallenging and everything else. You're already completely helpless in the sense that camoed hunters have the advantage with the camo, but that advantage shouldn't extend into the duration of the entire fight, which I believe is what the ambush/confuse combo does. Now I think that having ambush be more of a melee range skill will reduce this, and that's good, but it still won't make for a fair fight in the situation I described. Please consider confuse! It needs a bit or work.

[ironskin]

Why the **** is so hard for u, understand what hunters are at the moment? u say confuse is OP etc etc etc, wanna talk about darkness on lock? just the lvl 1 lasts 20 seconds, okay nerf ambush and give the final shot to this "useless" class as u call it, cause u are too lame to play an hunter, u want just to win with an OP class, u can't accept to lose .... Learn to play all classes, then wait for 10 seconds before talk and think about what u are gonna say. Nerfing ambush= Nomore hunters around, the game is gonna have 5 classes, not 6 like before.... Stop complaining about that fucking confuse when on marks i do 15 normal hit if i'm lucky , when locks, with darkness spam Venoms and kill u in 10 seconds...

[chilko]

Hi guys,

after 150 posts i think this discussion has met it's purpose.

Now, I wanted to ask for your help

Is there anyone willing help us compile a summary about all of this?

please use this thread: http://www.regnumonline.com.ar/forum/showthread.php?p=1377606#post1377606

Thanks in advance for your help guys!