[eww] Awkward test about () damage.

[_Enio_]

First of all, related test but that one seems straightforward.

Gems in weapons seem to not be affected by spells that scale the weapon damage.

Tested with init bow+arrows -> 103 max, 106 with recharged.
Added 15 dmg gem into it -> 118 max, 121 with recharged, 121-106 is exactly 15 sooo gems defenitely don't count as weapon damage.

http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/3963/screenshot2012010521162.jpg



Now the other test i tried to see if the dmg in () counts. Nothing really fits anymore.


(Wasnt dmg per dex 1.5 for marks? Adding lvl 1 Lightness boosts my damage by 7 so it should fit for "bonus" dex, however there seems some other magic going on for the base dexterity.)
Edit: Thanks to Kitsunie who remind me on the actual formula. 20 dex is discarded so its 64*1.5=96 dmg from dex, which fits on that part.



http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/2025/screenshot2012010521413.jpg


Anyone any idea whats wrong there?

I was almost certain that () isnt included for scaling as itis defenitely not on armor but the dmg is too high here.

Not sure which category fits best for that kind of stuff so i put it here. Feel free to move.

[Aelonderiel]

First of all, related test but that one seems straightforward.

Gems in weapons seem to not be affected by spells that scale the weapon damage.

Tested with init bow+arrows -> 103 max, 106 with recharged.
Added 15 dmg gem into it -> 118 max, 121 with recharged, 121-106 is exactly 15 sooo gems defenitely don't count as weapon damage.

http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/3963/screenshot2012010521162.jpg



Now the other test i tried to see if the dmg in () counts. Nothing really fits anymore.

Wasnt dmg per dex 1.5 for marks? Adding lvl 1 Lightness boosts my damage by 7 so it should fit for "bonus" dex, however there seems some other magic going on for the base dexterity.


http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/2025/screenshot2012010521413.jpg


Anyone any idea whats wrong there?

I was almost certain that () isnt included for scaling as itis defenitely not on armor but the dmg is too high here.

Not sure which category fits best for that kind of stuff so i put it here. Feel free to move.

Very, very good stuff. I have long since suspected that something is wrong, not just with gems, but with all enhancements found on weapons. What counts as weapon damage is not immediately obvious. Brutal Impacts (5) is supposed to add +75 blunt damage (weapon is not mentioned anywhere), but it seems to be affected by overwhelming strength and berserk. I can't be bothered to do your fancy tests (I'm doing enough debugging and experimenting irl to do it for this game) but I thought I'd throw it in here. :D

[Psynocide]

I'm reminded quite forcibly why maths is so excruciatingly tedious and painful, I can empathize with NGD for throwing in the towel on their damage calculations.

[Raely]

I made some tests.

Bow: 85 - 120 (+20) +17 fire -> Total damage: 122 - 157
Arrows: 48 - 65 +10 fire -> Total damage: 58 - 75
Dexterity 84 -> Total damage: 96

Attack damage: 276 - 328
Wich is 122 + 58 + 96 min damage, 157 + 75 + 96 max damage. Correct.

Now with Recharged Arrow(5)
Attack damage: 348 - 423 -> Total damage added by RA: 72 - 95

Min damage from Bow and arrows is: 122 + 58 = 180, 40% of 180 is 72. Correct.
Max damage from Bow and arrows is: 157 + 75 = 232, 40% of 232 is 92.8. Not correct, there's a difference of +2.2.

Now with Specialist(4)
Attack damage: 288 - 344 -> Total damage added by Specialist: 12 - 16

Let's research...
12 is 8% of 150. 150 must be: 85 min damage from bow + 17 special bonus from bow + 48 from min arrows damage.
For max damage: 120 + 17 + 65 = 202. 8% of 202 is 16.16.

It seems correct, but why specialist formula is different from RA one?

Specialist doesn't take in calculation special bonus from arrows and (+damage) from bow, while RA does. They both says weapon damage bonus.

Now with Specialist(4) and RA(5)
Attack damage: 360 - 440 -> So it's 348 - 423 from RA(5) + 12 - 16 from Specialist(4). They don't stack, i guess there's a round up somewhere (440 - 423 = 17 instead of 16).

In conclusion... It seems like passive spells don't take in calculation some item bonuses. Also there's +2 damage added by RA(5) to maximum damage but not to minimum damage wich i don't know where it's coming from.

I'll make some tests with gems too later.

Edit: i made some tests on barb...
Overwhelming Strenght, wich is passive, takes into calculations base weapon damage (without (+damage) and without special bonuses) AND damage from gems AND damage from rings and amulet.
Berserk takes into calculation base weapon damage and special bonuses on weapon but not (+damage) nor damage from gems AND damage from amulet and rings.

Seems like formulas are different for every class, what a mess. :\

[_Enio_]

I made some tests.

[...]

It seems correct, but why specialist formula is different from RA one?

Specialist doesn't take in calculation special bonus from arrows and (+damage) from bow, while RA does. They both says weapon damage bonus.

[...]
In conclusion... It seems like passive spells don't take in calculation some item bonuses. Also there's +2 damage added by RA(5) to maximum damage but not to minimum damage wich i don't know where it's coming from.

I'll make some tests with gems too later.

Interesting. Will check specialist compared to recharged too, for me the dmg calculations seemd always correct assuming they floor the values for the charscreen.

[Kitsuni]

Seems like formulas are different for every class, what a mess. :\
NGD probably has an individual script or code segment for calculating the damage from every spell.

Keep in mind the engine was written ten years ago.

[Sw4ggerPrince]

I was wondering if it is a bug or different kind of calculation for NGD.And yeah,it seems they are different for every class...

[Seher]

Yes, it is a mess. And item bonuses (not the base damage), as well as rings and amulets should not influence any spell. Geez, NGD, you just want to make balance even harder than it already is, do you?

[Aelonderiel]

Yes, it is a mess. And item bonuses (not the base damage), as well as rings and amulets should not influence any spell. Geez, NGD, you just want to make balance even harder than it already is, do you?

I think I agree with that. This would solve the gear scaling problem to an extent, right now an epic bow/hammer with good dmg bonuses can still do about as much dmg as a special weapon 10-15 lvls higher, and good epic elite weapons are just ridiculously powerful.

Also, the extra damage in parentheses (+dmg) or whatever you call it, should be always accounted for IMO. Otherwise you're taking away one of the main advantages of using Magna/WM weapons. And gems, enhancements etc should NOT be accounted for, just added on top the way they are.

Just as an example, my lvl 42 epic off hand hammer is better damage wise than a couple of good magicals lvl 50+ I've tried... And this is plain wrong IMO.

Also, ammys and rings being accounted for in Berserk/OS is absolutely ridiculous, who wants barbs running around with +200 damage from jewelry (dragon ammy gives almost +100)? Not me, and I'm a barb...

Ok, some of you might not agree with all the above, but (+dmg) definitely needs fixing...

[Seher]

It's not just about overpowered items. It makes balancing harder! If you don't agree with a nerf for items - well you can still multiply the bonus items give by 1.5 or stuff like that. The main benefit is making it easier to balance.

Same with absolute armor reduction. Someone dealing 10% more damage (500 vs 550) suddenly deals 100% more (50 vs 100, lol!). How do you want to balance that?

They do balance the hard way - they seem to want it that way, no matter what. Instead of fixing the basics they reduce ambush range and do minor spell swapping, lol.

[_Emin_]

..Same with absolute armor reduction. Someone dealing 10% more damage (500 vs 550) suddenly deals 100% more (50 vs 100, lol!). How do you want to balance that?..l.

^
this

The new armor calculation is cr*p, I prefered the old one, hunters can do much more damage then.

[_Enio_]

The new armor calculation is cr*p, I prefered the old one, hunters can do much more damage then.

The armor calculation didnt change at all since start iirc. Has always been a fixed reduction. Just the amount - or rather some hidden modifiers have been upped by a good margin.

[_Emin_]

The armor calculation didnt change at all since start iirc. Has always been a fixed reduction. Just the amount - or rather some hidden modifiers have been upped by a good margin.

Oh my bad xD, I meant this^

[Huntrare]

In conclusion... It seems like passive spells don't take in calculation some item bonuses. Also there's +2 damage added by RA(5) to maximum damage but not to minimum damage wich i don't know where it's coming from.
\

Im making some tests here for my own uses and I knew that _Enio_ did a thread.
Anyway, so if passive spells dont take in calculation, Specialist/Lightness are for nothing?

[71175]

Im making some tests here for my own uses and I knew that _Enio_ did a thread.
Anyway, so if passive spells dont take in calculation, Specialist/Lightness are for nothing?

In what calculation?

[Huntrare]

In what calculation?

That Raely did.

[_Enio_]

Passives still scale the damage, just some damage parts seem to be ignored. I.e. gems.

[kowocki]

BUMP UP

would be nice if NGD clean this damage buff/passives mess in a nice small patch/update.

that would solve 90% of problems related to the item/JEWELLERY imbalance and get rid of absurdal OP damage sometimes we see in our logs

[Artemo]

Now that that i see this thread, thanks to the bump :smile: I have to say this clearly has to be worked on.
If a speel says "+ weapon damage" everyone should be able to tell what exactly gets boosted and not test it out since this buff works for every spell on its own.