Marksman supremacy [Archive] - Champions of Regnum

kmdk

03-25-2012, 11:23 AM

Shwish

03-25-2012, 11:41 AM

Can i know what class you play?
As marksman i damn wasted to die inside fort by any barbs that deal chains of 2800 crits and kick 5.Like this i die 23424234 /day.

If you are barb..nothing more sample:

Use your passive resists vs piercing
use caution lvl 4/5
keep up all time when you run around wz frenzy lvl 5 up
use UM
use spring 5 and use spear...spear has range and hits wile you runing.

Use massive defence and medium dmg +max speed....if are skilled for max dmg and medium defence play only as group and in fort fights.

In fort nothing sample.Uber dmg+Um +kock 5....2 hits and marksmen/hunter/mage is dead.

I think you're missing the point here. No matter how much you buff your defense, you're still not going to get close enough to hit him unless you have an allie to onslaught or horn you. Even then, you can low pro/sotw your roar or kick and wait out your UM then have his way with you at close range.

I quit my marksman and play warlock as my main character now and i can tell you that if the marksman has half a brain, i wouldn't get close enough to land one spell on him. As mentioned your only chance would be to hump a tree and even if the marksman takes the bait, if he does he has 15 seconds of sotw and 3 instant cast cc spells which is more than enough.

Ever since bow ranges where bumped up to 35m max, marksman have become stupidly overpowered will continue to rule the warzone until that changes. While I admire NGD alot for all they've achieved by taking this game to the next level, some decisions they've made have just been for lack of a better word idiotic and the idea of range 35 bows with 35m freezes is number one on my list. Buffing foresight and parabolic shot was good, 35 meter bows was overkill. Nobody asked for it.

kmdk

03-25-2012, 11:57 AM

I think you're missing the point here. No matter how much you buff your defense, you're still not going to get close enough to hit him unless you have an allie to onslaught or horn you. Even then, you can low pro/sotw your roar or kick and wait out your UM then have his way with you at close range.

I quit my marksman and play warlock as my main character now and i can tell you that if the marksman has half a brain, i wouldn't get close enough to land one spell on him. As mentioned your only chance would be to hump a tree and even if the marksman takes the bait, if he does he has 15 seconds of sotw and 3 instant cast cc spells which is more than enough.

Ever since bow ranges where bumped up to 35m max, marksman have become stupidly overpowered will continue to rule the warzone until that changes. While I admire NGD alot for all they've achieved by taking this game to the next level, some decisions they've made have just been for lack of a better word idiotic and the idea of range 35 bows with 35m freezes is number one on my list. Buffing foresight and parabolic shot was good, 35 meter bows was overkill. Nobody asked for it.

I am disagree with you,maybe as you told marksman is overpowerd.But in forts war,where the range is too short most of time.
In plain yes,marksman has lots of CC,about sotw ..is just a fail spell,almost all knocks/stun/frezz speels go true,but not dmg spells.
If you tell me that setup that i wrote up it is wrong,i must be again disagree with you.The point is sample,you must make the ranger to deal very low dmg until you rich him.
Even with my low lvl 50 barb i still can doit with easy,even to kill two archers if i can roar them.As you told,about brain ,barbs need to use it too.

About range i don't care .And yes range 35 it is too much,but i think that come once with nerf of old escapist ,spring and sotw.Somehow archers to be NPC guards of forts and barbs massive dmg dealers.
Personaly preferd old gameplay with old escapist,old 30 max range and medium dmg for barbs.This made pvp by far more interesting and had more dinamics.

_Kharbon_

03-25-2012, 11:59 AM

What class do you play?

As a warlock, i have to get close to marks and keep him dizzied/knocked/beetle'd and immobilized. If he survives the first chain of cc's, freeze him :P

You absolutely have to get the marks into your range, othervise he will kill you from 40m without you having chance.

Tamui

03-25-2012, 12:13 PM

If you wish to play very safe. Treehug. If a marksman really wants to kill you, he will come for you. He will get in range, and marksman without range is almost a dead man.
If not, try like kmdk suggested, nullify the damage as much as you can and run towards him untill he has the range

Shwish

03-25-2012, 01:05 PM

I am disagree with you,maybe as you told marksman is overpowerd.But in forts war,where the range is too short most of time.
In plain yes,marksman has lots of CC,about sotw ..is just a fail spell,almost all knocks/stun/frezz speels go true,but not dmg spells.
If you tell me that setup that i wrote up it is wrong,i must be again disagree with you.The point is sample,you must make the ranger to deal very low dmg until you rich him.
Even with my low lvl 50 barb i still can doit with easy,even to kill two archers if i can roar them.As you told,about brain ,barbs need to use it too.

I didn't say your setup is wrong. I see where you were going with it and it makes sense to reduce as much of the markman's damage as possible, you dont really have any other options aside from tree humping. All I'm saying is that it wouldn't help much because the marksman can circle the warzone kiting you before you gona reach him.

About Son of the wind being a fail spell. Please make a warlock and see how much of your spells actually go though sotw then come back and talk about it. Either way, 15 seconds is too long for a caster class to be playing russian roulette with an archer especially when the archer has a 9 second dizzy to follow it.

_Kharbon_

03-25-2012, 01:21 PM

About Son of the wind being a fail spell. Please make a warlock and see how much of your spells actually go though sotw then come back and talk about it. Either way, 15 seconds is too long for a caster class to be playing russian roulette with an archer especially when the archer has a 9 second dizzy to follow it.

Huge +1. This is exactly my feeling when someone says "sotw is broken" etc.
in 15 seconds a marksman can get you to half hp, or even less, and you can't even attack him (for a mage). When you try to get a spell randomly in, there's no guarantee that it will be a fireball or will domain. Either way, you usualy get 2-4 spells into cooldown and loose mana before you even harm the marksman.

I feel that marksman have spells that are more suited for hunter, for example sotw or ethernal arrow.

tarashunter

03-25-2012, 01:30 PM

especially when the ---MARKSMAN--- has a 9 second dizzy to follow it.

fixed.
Non-cast-positive powers(confuse) is the way different from a total dizzy like BoW,and also,one have 1 sec cast time,the other one is fking istant and have range

kmdk

03-25-2012, 01:52 PM

Huge +1. This is exactly my feeling when someone says "sotw is broken" etc.
in 15 seconds a marksman can get you to half hp, or even less, and you can't even attack him (for a mage). When you try to get a spell randomly in, there's no guarantee that it will be a fireball or will domain. Either way, you usualy get 2-4 spells into cooldown and loose mana before you even harm the marksman.

I feel that marksman have spells that are more suited for hunter, for example sotw or ethernal arrow.

1.You can't cast true DI bow ,has long CD
2.Meteor has low cd ,good dmg ,you can keep enemy ever dizzy.
3.You have soul keeper,barrier,bettle swarm,darkness,(i marks cant ever hit you or buff)
4.You have ambitious sacrifice,energy borow,sadict servants(how on earth you can say you will be out of mana as mage? )
5.Learn how spells gues true sotw,use first any knock,freez,stun spells,after any kind of spell gues true.

I know warlock use usual meteor as first spell ...i think is a reflex,but is wrong when you face a archer with sotw.

Yes i play a warlock,and because of my experience about sotw that fail a lots under knock/stun/frezz spells ,i always use wild domain,freez,frozen storm priky ivy....one of this 3 spells will gues true 100%...one of them...at the moment when one of this spells gues true ...there is no more any barier to stop me to cast dmg spells,because all will work.
And if the freez that works,them bie bie sotw...15 sec ,after instant bettle swarm+meteor+darknes.

71175

03-25-2012, 02:17 PM

My mini statictics says that SotW fails the most on (warlock spells)
1. Sultar's terror /sarcasm
2. MoD /stupidness cuz auras ignore spell resist layer
3. freeze /yay, spell everybody loves
4. %insert some crap spell here%

SilverHaven

03-25-2012, 02:19 PM

And if the freez that works,them bie bie sotw...15 sec ,after instant bettle swarm+meteor+darknes.

Lol @ instant. It is 2s cast time, all of them - thats 4 times slower than a BoW, or WS. If you get bowed, frozen, stunned and your AD wears off during that, you are screwed because you get CCed again and you can't even recast that damn devotion.

This game has tons of spells...problem it is many not use all of them.
Even warlocks ,they have -50% weapon dmg spell,they can make a barb to deal a knight dmg.

Like lock has those 2s (or 1 with devotion) and 5 points to waste on a spell that lasts 20s on level 5 and gets countered with fulmi for a few secs.
BTW anyone else find it stupid that debufs in shared tree like curse, blidness are 0.5s cast time, while lock must have 2s on lazyness, 1.5 on petrify hands, 1.5 infuriate, ... just because he is warlock?

Shwish

03-25-2012, 02:32 PM

1.You can't cast true DI bow ,has long CD
Irrelevant
2.Meteor has low cd ,good dmg ,you can keep enemy ever dizzy.
A marksman can dizzy or freeze a warlock long before he has a chance to cast meteor (which is a 2 second cast btw and both those marksman spells are 0.5 seconds)
3.You have soul keeper,barrier,bettle swarm,darkness,(i marks cant ever hit you or buff)
Soul Keeper - 25m range 2 second cast
Beetle Swarm - 25m range 2 second cast
Darkness - 20m range 2 second cast
as opposed to
Winter Stroke - 35m range 0.5 second cast
Burst of Wind - 35m range and more with parabolic shot + foresight 0.5 second cast
I hope you are seeing my point
4.You have ambitious sacrifice,energy borow,sadict servants(how on earth you can say you will be out of mana as mage? )
Nobody said anything about running out of mana. I've honestly never heard a warlock complain about mana issues
5.Learn how spells gues true sotw,use first any knock,freez,stun spells,after any kind of spell gues true.
You obviously haven't played the warlock class. Will Domain gets resisted 90% of the time on an unbuffed player let alone someone under Sotw. And you cant attack a frozen enemy.

I know warlock use usual meteor as first spell ...i think is a reflex,but is wrong when you face a archer with sotw.

Because its the only spell (aside from Magma Blast and sultar with a range30 staff) that has a high enough range to hit a marksmen, if we're lucky and the marksman isnt paying attention to his distance, otherwise we would never land it. And even if the warlock gets lucky and land a meteor he still has to cover another 5 meters before he can cast another spell and a marksman can easily run in the opposite direction till the dizzy wears off.

Yes i play a warlock,and because of my experience about sotw that fail a lots under knock/stun/frezz spells ,i always use wild domain,freez,frozen storm priky ivy....one of this 3 spells will gues true 100%...one of them...at the moment when one of this spells gues true ...there is no more any barier to stop me to cast dmg spells,because all will work.
And if the freez that works,them bie bie sotw...15 sec ,after instant bettle swarm+meteor+darknes.
Here you just repeated everything you just said
and beetles isn't instant, a marksman can cast winter stroke out of a freeze alot faster than a mage can cast beetle swarm even with maxed out cast speed.

Answers in red

fixed.
Non-cast-positive powers(confuse) is the way different from a total dizzy like BoW,and also,one have 1 sec cast time,the other one is fking istant and have range
Note the title of the thread

kmdk

03-25-2012, 03:24 PM

[COLOR="Black"]
Because its the only spell (aside from Magma Blast and sultar with a range30 staff) that has a high enough range to hit a marksmen, if we're lucky and the marksman isnt paying attention to his distance, otherwise we would never land it

Nope.Hehe undercover unsware...most of warlock use because they complete disable other warlock or prevent any class to cast any kind of spell.
Don't try to say you use that spell because of range and also ,because i dont belive.
Dizzy spells have hight impact on gameplay,and allow warlock to cast in peace his load of CC/DOTS,thats the real meaning of meteor ,not the range.

71175

03-25-2012, 03:39 PM

_Kharbon_

03-25-2012, 06:43 PM

Nope.Hehe undercover unsware...most of warlock use because they complete disable other warlock or prevent any class to cast any kind of spell.
Don't try to say you use that spell because of range and also ,because i dont belive.
Dizzy spells have hight impact on gameplay,and allow warlock to cast in peace his load of CC/DOTS,thats the real meaning of meteor ,not the range.

Meteor is used because of range, as if you went only for the dizzy effect, i'd rather use silence, shorter cast time...

1.You can't cast true DI bow ,has long CD
DI requires a conjurer.. we are talking about 1v1 situations
2.Meteor has low cd ,good dmg ,you can keep enemy ever dizzy.
Yes, but see above. Bow and freeze has bigger distance (correct me if im wrong)
3.You have soul keeper,barrier,bettle swarm,darkness,(i marks cant ever hit you or buff)
Yes, we do. If the marks is dumb enough to let us close (with no sotw), he dies. Those spells have 25 range, and if timed incorrectly, marks go sotw or freeze us. If the archer has sotw active, these spells with long cd are wasted.
4.You have ambitious sacrifice,energy borow,sadict servants(how on earth you can say you will be out of mana as mage? )
Who said that? Also note, that under bow we cannot cast any spells (including amb sac, arc dev and barrier)
5.Learn how spells gues true sotw,use first any knock,freez,stun spells,after any kind of spell gues true.
Knocks are the obvious spells to use, as they cancel sotw, but still, they most likely will be resisted, if the warlock is not dizzy and is in range

I know warlock use usual meteor as first spell ...i think is a reflex,but is wrong when you face a archer with sotw.
Usualy archers keep distance and use sotw when they get too close (hunter). I'd love to try will domain on an archer, but hey, I have to get 10 meters close and there is still huge chance of it failing

Yes i play a warlock,and because of my experience about sotw that fail a lots under knock/stun/frezz spells ,i always use wild domain range,freez,frozen storm cd/mana/cast time :P priky ivy correct me if I'm wrong, but ivy doesn't cancel sotw, just immobilises the archer....one of this 3 spells will gues true 100%...one of them...not. there is nowhere near 100% chance that you'll hit through sotw. at the moment when one of this spells gues true ...there is no more any barier to stop me to cast dmg spells,because all will work. If you're not dead by this poing. the archer still has chance to go into lp or dizzy you, also there are many other variables.
And if the freez that works,them bie bie sotw...15 sec ,after instant bettle swarm+meteor+darknes. The archer would probably go into lp, causing your first spell not to cast, but to go into cd (tested with wd), and then he can strike back using the right spells

I'd just like to add, that sotw for hunters is fine. The spell is not 100% and has high cd and mana cost. But I ask why marksman have them? With 500ish normals i get often killed during the duration of sotw combined with bow/ambush.

Shwish

03-25-2012, 06:45 PM

esp_tupac

03-25-2012, 07:47 PM

1.You can't cast true DI bow ,has long CD
2.Meteor has low cd ,good dmg ,you can keep enemy ever dizzy.
3.You have soul keeper,barrier,bettle swarm,darkness,(i marks cant ever hit you or buff)
4.You have ambitious sacrifice,energy borow,sadict servants(how on earth you can say you will be out of mana as mage? )
5.Learn how spells gues true sotw,use first any knock,freez,stun spells,after any kind of spell gues true.

I know warlock use usual meteor as first spell ...i think is a reflex,but is wrong when you face a archer with sotw.

Yes i play a warlock,and because of my experience about sotw that fail a lots under knock/stun/frezz spells ,i always use wild domain,freez,frozen storm priky ivy....one of this 3 spells will gues true 100%...one of them...at the moment when one of this spells gues true ...there is no more any barier to stop me to cast dmg spells,because all will work.
And if the freez that works,them bie bie sotw...15 sec ,after instant bettle swarm+meteor+darknes.

Everybody is talking about how sotw fails... as a warlock, he will not waste mana and spell on a marks with sotw and hoping that one of the spells go through. willdomain is range 10; both Burst of Wind and WinterStroke have faster casting time than willdomain after the new cs fix. without treehug, it's IMPOSSIBLE to beat a marksman with a brain. beetle swarm is 2 sec cast at range 25. marksman can cast sotw instantly or low profile (followed by sotw or freeze/bow) after beetle so unless a warlock hit darkness first, it would be difficult to beat a marksman. now how the hell are you going to get in range 20 of a marksman and cast darkness with a 2 sec casting time spell? meteor is only range 30 and has 2 sec casting time as well. if a marksman's dmg is 350ish (im being very conservative here since i can hit 350 on a mage at lvl 50 with a lvl 45 bow), it would only take 3 normal hits to break a barrier. even if meteor lands, an experienced marksman would just strafe backward to avoid ivy or slow. warlock has to slow a marksman after meteor hits as all the other ccs are range 25 or less. truth is warlock doesn't get a chance to cast meteor at all because marksman will either cast sotw or cast Burst of Wind if he sees warlock gets too close. BoW is 9 sec and sotw is 15 sec which will be followed by distract shot and then ambush. even in close range marksman have enough dmg and cc to stop warlock from casting ANY spell until he is dead. if we are talking about pvp, marks vs warlock is very imbalance. In RvR, it's even worse...for the warlock. multiple marks and can rape you beyond range 35. or they can cast freeze at 35 and let the barb zerg do the rest... instant kick or feint after freeze. no matter how ppl look at marks it is currently the most popular and most powerful class in RO because they have enough cc, dmg and range to handle both RvR and PvP with ease. in the current state of the game, if a marks ever loses in a pvp situation to a warlock, he is a noob. if a marks ever complain about warlock's meteor, beetle swarm etc, he is a noob. learn to play marks first and don't talk to me like if warlock stands a chance against marks in open field. ever since the archer range increase, it has been hell for warlock to fight marks. I think the problem with warlock being the weakest target in RvR is because they have NO defensive spells like Mindblank, sanctuary, steel skin, lowprofile, sotw etc to help them escape impossible situations. mindblank can resist/alleviate some of the dizzy/cc casted by other classes such as Burst of Wind, freeze, kick etc. sanc and low profile buys conju and archer valueable time to escape and come up with a countermeasure. steel skin sheild conju from heavy normal hits from warriors. mindblank+ mindpush/other cc in the mental tree help conju escape death. low profile+ sotw or sotw itself + mobility help archer escape. knights don't die in RvR so there is no need to mention them. what does warlock have??? ppl say offense is the best defense...how can warlock fight with marks spamming freeze or BoW beyond range 35 while barbs/knights charging with horn and DI. Think about this guys. what do warlocks have left to keep them alive longer. while cs "fix" further reduced casting speed, the negative impact to warlock combat ability is immense compared to the way it has affected other classes. WTF are you trying to do, NGD? count the number of warlock in RvR compared to that of barbs and marks...warlocks are on the verge of extinction here! wake the fuck up.

tarashunter

03-25-2012, 09:09 PM

Answers in red

Note the title of the thread

Note the terms i have fixed pls.

Either way, 15 seconds is too long for a caster class to be playing russian roulette with an archer especially when the archer has a 9 second dizzy to follow it.

Is required an example of different powers when you speak about ARCHERS on a marksman related thread.
If in YOUR answer you speak of archers,then,marks have BoW,hunter have confuse.
Already noticed the title of the thread.

VandaMan

03-25-2012, 10:40 PM

Sometimes I like to use paragraphs when I'm ranting.

Awrath

03-25-2012, 10:55 PM

Wall of text with no paragraphs which took me ages to read.

I completely agree with Hepha here, and as I have been saying since the range 35 bows were introduced, revert them back to 30 max. This being said, I would not like to see SB go back down to 20 and 25, since speed buffs would make the use of range 20 bows pretty much impossible. So, only LBs really need to be reduced back to 30, and further range can be obtained by the use of the passive as well as parabolic.

Increase CD of winter stroke, reduce its range to 30. These pew pew marks get boring quick, 99% of marks roll around with max range and the DPS of some marksmen is insane.

Recharged arrows also needs to be adjusted, it should be a buff with a duration and CD rather than a constantly active spell. In its current state you regenerate mana faster then it drains. More situational spells = better game dynamics rather than this boring pew pew game play marks has become.

To the OP, you cannot defeat a marks in open field, unless you are a marks yourself, just find the nearest obstacle and hug until they come close enough or go away because they wont take the risk of moving within your range.

GreenAngel

03-26-2012, 06:13 AM

Hmm, my main character is a Marks, but yet I always come close when I have to fight Warlocks I got a couple of reasons for it:

1. I want to die
2. I want to have a nice pvp no matter I loose
3. Because the Warlock ambushes me from close

I played a Hunter for 2 years and actually I still play Marks - Hunt style, with all possible cc's and medium damage.

Rapid shot, ambush, stun's, df, low defense (3/4).

People should try that way of hunting/pvping, It's real fun in fort wars and in open fields as well :) even without all these range buffs you still outrange any other class.

Rising_Cold

03-26-2012, 07:43 AM

... So, only LBs really need to be reduced back to 30, and further range can be obtained by the use of the passive as well as parabolic.

Increase CD of winter stroke, reduce its range to 30.

Recharged arrows also needs to be adjusted, it should be a buff with a duration and CD rather than a constantly active spell. In its current state you regenerate mana faster then it drains.

You do know, if you reduce the range of lb you affect hunters too, ofc they mostly use sb
but you need to have some range if you want to be able to slow down a running player
and spending lots of points on parabolic doesnt work well for hunter

I think winter stroke should keep its cd as it is, but its range could be reduced...
I must add that I love freezing those gankers and run for my life (im good at that) before they get to me :D

As for the recharched arrows constant buff/one time spell.. marks already have
buffs that take a lot of mana, (srry forgot the name) but the as+hc spell costs a lot
the normal damaging spells are around 200 mana at lv 5 (not saying they all are... serpent was 180 I think)
I think it should stay a constant buff, but they could make the mana use a bit more
I wont say I like it, but it migh satisfy the barbs who feel they cant kill marks enough

personally I dont have a problem with marks.. most marks are either stupid or like
their party members a lot, ;) they dont run to epic range all the time,
also the marks class range makes hunters camo-distraction shot usefull..
finally some more use for hunters, other than being a track slave..

Raindance

03-26-2012, 10:49 AM

I completely agree with Hepha here, and as I have been saying since the range 35 bows were introduced, revert them back to 30 max. This being said, I would not like to see SB go back down to 20 and 25, since speed buffs would make the use of range 20 bows pretty much impossible. So, only LBs really need to be reduced back to 30, and further range can be obtained by the use of the passive as well as parabolic.

I don't think anyone would like to see short bows go back to 20 and 25 range because they've all gotten too comfortable with them being 25 and 30. The same really goes for long bows, but to a much smaller degree.

The change you proposed really gives short bows and long bows no relevant difference between them, that being the base range since speed and damage can both be aquired through other ways. IMO, the best solution is to make foresight work only for long bows, giving them a real difference. I don't want to put on a long bow that has the same range as a short bow since the short bow will pull out more DPS and at the same range.

As for the CC's: winter stroke and burst of wind - they should be moved to 25 range and stunning fist should be moved to a hunters only tree.

isgandarli

03-26-2012, 11:35 AM

As for the CC's: winter stroke and burst of wind - they should be moved to 25 range and stunning fist should be moved to a hunters only tree.

WS range should be nerfed even to 15m. Nowadays marksmans spam WS more than they hit and they act like a barbs enemy catching whores. It goes like Winter Stroke -> Barb reach -> Kick -> Fulmi -> Dead. Applauds please, they did an awesome job to kill one player!

Burst of Wind range seems to be ok, because conjurers can DI others, so BoW will loose it's usage.

The other thing that should be changed is: give the damn animation for DI'ed and Beaconed players which NGD fails to do?

Tamui

03-26-2012, 01:29 PM

WS range should be nerfed even to 15m. Nowadays marksmans spam WS more than they hit and they act like a barbs enemy catching whores. It goes like Winter Stroke -> Barb reach -> Kick -> Fulmi -> Dead. Applauds please, they did an awesome job to kill one player!

Burst of Wind range seems to be ok, because conjurers can DI others, so BoW will loose it's usage.

The other thing that should be changed is: give the damn animation for DI'ed and Beaconed players which NGD fails to do?

I would set a limit to BoW, maybe 30m,.
IMHO, BoW is intended to stop Conjurers to heal others.
With Marks supreme range, they can reach Conjus at the back of the line.
But when you're not looking from an RvR aspect, I'd say it requires a range.

Winter stroke at 15m....argh, Barbs will surely reach me :D

_Enio_ did a well based thread on Marksman, how to improve them in gameplay, not in power.

Awrath

03-26-2012, 05:08 PM

You do know, if you reduce the range of lb you affect hunters too, ofc they mostly use sb
but you need to have some range if you want to be able to slow down a running player
and spending lots of points on parabolic doesnt work well for hunter

Range 30 is more than enough to slow down a running player, so your reason for keeping range 35 bow range is to reach players that are running 35m away from you? That's exactly part of the problem, the range is far too much.

I think winter stroke should keep its cd as it is, but its range could be reduced...
I must add that I love freezing those gankers and run for my life (im good at that) before they get to me :D

No. Winter stroke CD is far too short, and pretty much everyone agrees with this. And yet again, you prove why it needs a increase in CD, your reason for not reducing the CD is so you can escape versus multiple gankers. Hardly a valid reason.

As for the recharched arrows constant buff/one time spell.. marks already have
buffs that take a lot of mana, (srry forgot the name) but the as+hc spell costs a lot
the normal damaging spells are around 200 mana at lv 5 (not saying they all are... serpent was 180 I think)
I think it should stay a constant buff, but they could make the mana use a bit more
I wont say I like it, but it migh satisfy the barbs who feel they cant kill marks enough

Yes adjusting the mana consumption would work too. I don't know how NGD went from too much mana use to almost no mana use. But something in between would be ideal. I actually regen mana with recharged active than lose mana. Anything to make this brainless point and shoot a bit more interesting.

also the marks class range makes hunters camo-distraction shot usefull..
finally some more use for hunters, other than being a track slave..
I don't get how the marksman's range makes camo and dist shot more useful than any other situation -_-.

I don't think anyone would like to see short bows go back to 20 and 25 range because they've all gotten too comfortable with them being 25 and 30. The same really goes for long bows, but to a much smaller degree.

The change you proposed really gives short bows and long bows no relevant difference between them, that being the base range since speed and damage can both be aquired through other ways. IMO, the best solution is to make foresight work only for long bows, giving them a real difference. I don't want to put on a long bow that has the same range as a short bow since the short bow will pull out more DPS and at the same range.

I disagree. There are two entire spell trees of difference between LB and SB. LBs. It would still be beneficial for the marksman to use LB since they can stack parabolic on foresight for range, and those who choose to play with SB can play with SB, but at the sacrifice of less range. As well as this at level 60 the bows available to a marksman are Range 35 slow WM LB, Range 35 medium Ancient LB, Range 25 Fast Ancient SB, Range 25 Fast WM SB. By taking back only LB range, there is still a large advantage in using LB for a marksman. Then in order to use a range 30 SB, one will have to sacrifice damage.

I do get where you're coming from though, I suppose with a combination of hawks gaze and rapid shot there could be potential for insane DPS. Perhaps making foresight LB only is the right move.

I would hate to see SB at 20-25, because as I mentioned earlier, with the current state of the game and the speed buffs available, they would become pretty much useless. At the same time, I am adamant that the range 35 LBs are a huge problem, and these need to be reverted.

Anyway :S this thread has now been hijacked as a marx balance thread, there have been plenty of discussions on this already in the balance section and I hope NGD take into consideration what the general consensus is amongst the community.

SilverHaven

03-26-2012, 05:15 PM

The other thing that should be changed is: give the damn animation for DI'ed and Beaconed players which NGD fails to do?
I would add: fix bufs animation when the player gets buffed outside of your view range. Example: lock runs into a warju, cast meteor and is glad warju didnt have Mind Blank active, but suddenly bum, warlock get dizzied, because warju had invisible mind blank buf. Same for other spells, like sotw, material wall, steel skin, ...

Rising_Cold

03-26-2012, 05:54 PM

I don't get how the marksman's range makes camo and dist shot more useful than any other situation -_-.

Well then let me give you an example..
The marksman has supreme range, with all the slows and bla bla we heard/read it already ;)
So the only way to stop the marks is either with another marks who can make sure
their spells hit and that they are not freezed/stunned instead
or
you get a hunter who goes into camo and gets near that marks while others
fall back a little but play good bait
and are ready to rush when the hunter comes out of camo and stuns the nasty marks :D

Its just a strategie to take out a marks the easy way.. just need a hunter and one other player
its just that most people only think in a little box, the one everyone uses now..
no strategie.. just run and hope you can reach your enemy

71175

03-26-2012, 05:57 PM

Well then let me give you an example..
The marksman has supreme range, with all the slows and bla bla we heard/read it already ;)
So the only way to stop the marks is either with another marks who can make sure
their spells hit and that they are not freezed/stunned instead
or
you get a hunter who goes into camo and gets near that marks while others
fall back a little but play good bait
and are ready to rush when the hunter comes out of camo and stuns the nasty marks :D

Its just a strategie to take out a marks the easy way.. just need a hunter and one other player
its just that most people only think in a little box, the one everyone uses now..
no strategie.. just run and hope you can reach your enemy

This is what i call clever but cowardish play. And main, this "strategy" is mainly useful at zerging. period.

Awrath

03-26-2012, 06:59 PM

Well then let me give you an example..
The marksman has supreme range, with all the slows and bla bla we heard/read it already ;)
So the only way to stop the marks is either with another marks who can make sure
their spells hit and that they are not freezed/stunned instead
or
you get a hunter who goes into camo and gets near that marks while others
fall back a little but play good bait
and are ready to rush when the hunter comes out of camo and stuns the nasty marks :D

Its just a strategie to take out a marks the easy way.. just need a hunter and one other player
its just that most people only think in a little box, the one everyone uses now..
no strategie.. just run and hope you can reach your enemy
Again, you fail to explain how the marksman's range makes camo and dist shot more useful than any other situation -_-. In case you are not aware, this strategy will still work if bows were to be reverted to range 30. Or am I missing something here?

Tamui

03-26-2012, 07:07 PM

Marksman are best at long range AND short range. IMO, Hunter should be very good at short range...short range meaning SB range, fast, medium dealing dmg. the problem is, the range for hunter. He needs to get in range AND stay out of barbs harm's way.

Rising_Cold

03-28-2012, 05:26 AM

Again, you fail to explain how the marksman's range makes camo and dist shot more useful than any other situation -_-. In case you are not aware, this strategy will still work if bows were to be reverted to range 30. Or am I missing something here?

Ah tnx for pointing out how much I fail -.-

If bows were reduced to range 30 the distance is shorter-> the % added still the same but its less in total
(just saying this as its clear some cant put one and two together..)
Then it wont be so hard for other classes to get into range.
No use for this strategie unless your playing with players all below 40

It is true that marks have supreme range and all, but isnt that supposed to be
its main trait,
they hardly have defence even a knight can take them out with crappy damage
(let alone a barb with 1-3k hits)

71175

03-28-2012, 05:45 AM

_Kharbon_

03-28-2012, 06:43 AM

It is true that marks have supreme range and all, but isnt that supposed to be
its main trait,
they hardly have defence even a knight can take them out with crappy damage
(let alone a barb with 1-3k hits)

As I see, your marksman is lvl 38. That's a bit low for warzone. Marksman, who care to buff a bit before they allow the barb to get close, usually don't get 3k hits.

Marksman do have the second or third best armor, right after knights and barbs.

Warlocks are much worse off...

Rising_Cold

03-28-2012, 06:53 AM

Marksman, who care to buff a bit before they allow the barb to get close, usually don't get 3k hits.

Marksman do have the second or third best armor, right after knights and barbs.

Warlocks are much worse off...

Still even without the 3k hit barbs should have no problem when they reach the marks
And yh the marks has to be buffed up, my friend has a lv 60 marks he got hit by 900 normal
while unbuffed, by a hunter. Ofcourse there is a huge difference buffed/unbuffed
thats with every class.

{and yes locks have a defence problem, then again they have major damage and good areas too
if you want to complain complain about hunters ;)}

Rising_Cold

03-28-2012, 06:54 AM

Wha? marksman is second tankiest class after knight in game.

Then my knight just owns, but you know that ;)

71175

03-28-2012, 07:00 AM

Then my knight just owns, but you know that ;)

Well, last time i got hit over 1k was when i was unbuffed xD

And yh the marks has to be buffed up, my friend has a lv 60 marks he got hit by 900 normal
while unbuffed, by a hunter. Ofcourse there is a huge difference buffed/unbuffed
thats with every class.

Wait, didn't it happen to be jesus or VV xD? they have OP gears. And as u said: unbuffed.

Awrath

03-28-2012, 07:10 AM

If bows were reduced to range 30 the distance is shorter-> the % added still the same but its less in total
(just saying this as its clear some cant put one and two together..)
Then it wont be so hard for other classes to get into range.
No use for this strategie unless your playing with players all below 40

Thanks for the maths lesson as to how percentage works. So you prefer a marksman to remain unreachable, good suggestions for balance right there. And I still fail to see how your aforementioned tactic is any less effective while a marksman has less range.

they hardly have defence even a knight can take them out with crappy damage
(let alone a barb with 1-3k hits)
We play the same game?

Still even without the 3k hit barbs should have no problem when they reach the marks

Yes, when they do. At present this is never.

And yh the marks has to be buffed up, my friend has a lv 60 marks he got hit by 900 normal
while unbuffed, by a hunter.
Ofcourse there is a huge difference buffed/unbuffed
thats with every class.

What? Of course when we talk about defence in the game we talk about a buffed character. In most cases. This case is one of them.

{and yes locks have a defence problem, then again they have major damage and good areas too
if you want to complain complain about hunters ;)}
Yes locks have poor defence, but major damage? Marks has way more DPS and this is from 50+ metres away.

blood-raven

03-28-2012, 11:12 AM

Yes, when they do. At present this is never.

depends tough, at fort wars or big group wars, barbs have no trouble reaching anyone, in hunts or small fights, yeah they are a delicious rp-meal, as long as they don't go treehughing :p

_Kharbon_

03-28-2012, 12:15 PM

Still even without the 3k hit barbs should have no problem when they reach the marks
Well, this depends greatly. Don't forget, that marks have several spells that allow them to escape the barb with a bit of luck (stuns, freeze, lp/sotw...)
And yh the marks has to be buffed up, my friend has a lv 60 marks he got hit by 900 normal
while unbuffed, by a hunter. Ofcourse there is a huge difference
buffed/unbuffed
Yes, well hunters can buff dirty fighting, cold blood, and with good gear they can get very high momentary dammage
thats with every class.
Warlock? how does energy barrier contrast with knights defence buffs? Quite a lot difference there

{and yes locks have a defence problem, then again they have major damage and good areas too
Locks are bad on defence, but their damage got nerfed too, and didn't get boosted by the lvl cap increase, unlike warriors and archers.
if you want to complain complain about hunters ;)}
Hunters are weak. If they ambush me unbuffed, yeah, they have a small chance. If I see them first, they have to run or they die. Marks are much more tough to kill.
Answers in blue.

shade555

04-01-2012, 10:33 AM

I've done this topic 'cause I'm playing a warlock on RA right now.
I'm not saying that warlock sucks 'cause I find it perfectly balanced even too mutch power sometimes, he has high damage and low defence but this is ok it is like "take them away or u get powned".

I'm neither saing that marks damage is too high because I find it ok too. It's high 'cause is an offensive class, sometimes too high like 600dmg on crit (which means more damage then a meteor from way above) but it's ok.

What is not ok IMO is that on RA there are always enought mark to dizzy every mage in RvR and after being dizzy a mage have always to face SoTW and then being freeze while Serpent bite kill you.
The only way u can kill a marks is, surprise, that u find a noob marks who dunno how to play and he gets into 30 range.

If not, you will be powned from 40meters, if u try to run all your group will be slowed by lighting arrow (or freeze) and powned by barbarians.

Even more devastating is a WM mark with at least 1 guy near him -> horn of the wind -> you can never catch him.
Or you find a tree or you're dead -> no trees? Goodbye.

Ah, I think that right now hunters are the only class unbalanced, 'cause they literally suck. Those high armor make them do 90 damage...

p.s. Cm'on guys wtf If a whole rvr team is composed of conjurer, barbarians an marks they surely wins, why u should make a warlock or a knight or an hunter? Noone need them and they dont excell in anything usefull

bois

04-01-2012, 02:39 PM

I think the biggest think most people question is not just the sake of raw damage. It is the combination of several factors in RvR and to some extent ,PvP that make certain classes (if played well) seem overpowering.

Backstory
In this case, let us go back a bit. Marks always had a significant amount of attack power. The major hindrance that kept them in check used to be the mana. In addition, at level 50 , and after the removal of many free level 1 spells, the power point allocation and basic attribute levels kept things in check and somewhat balanced.

Shared spell trees.
There has always been an argument over this for any class. Marks is no different. The question always remained even before the improvements at level 60. Does the marks have too much defense at its disposal considering the amount of CC, range and offensive powers it has? This was always a concern however, a muted concern because the mana issue along with the limited power points, range and relative movement speed of the marks at that time kept things well in check. So much so that it might be considered that a marks was slightly underpowered due to its limited mana supply.

Effect of range increase and release of mana shackles
Enter level 60 and all its associated perks. As I have always said before, the expansion simply magnified all existing problems. In the developers wisdom it was wiser to add content rather than fix conceptual and balance issues which were considered minor. Yes they were minor when the shackles of other conceptual issues kept them in check. Remove the shackles and what did you get ?
The first major changes included an increase of range and the increase of mana recovery. This released the shackles on marks and made it not only incredibly easy to level up ( a class population imbalance in the making in itself) but able to be much more effective in war over longer periods. A marks does not now have to disengage or even risk coming in range of other classes (unless it so chooses) to deliver its payload of spells or even normal damage.

Level 60
Second innovation is the move to level 60. For this I will not include the WarMaster powers as this affects all classes globally.
So in addition to having increased range and a mana pool* (recently fixed*) the marks now has the luxury of 20 more power points, and a significant amount of discipline points at its disposal. Couple this with more health, mana and base attributes (with benefits) with the ability to have significant amount of damage reduction, increased range, increased damage, more CC at higher or max levels and include a varied amount of debuffing power as an extra treat.
Power points before and after 1.6.2*(side note : a marks ,if I remember correctly had 45 points and could get up to 43 freebies depending on the build for a total of 88 , including passives with old system. Now a marks has 65+20 for a total of 85. The former system led to builds with many level 1 spells with fewer allocation of level4+ spells. Now we have the opposite with roughly 3 points less. I think it is correct . If wrong please advise. I am in Sunday fog. )

Long story short is that a marks at level 60 can build an all encompassing build and still benefit from Warmaster powers of its allies. The only counter to a marks power is in fact that this power is king in open field or under protected circumstances. It is dead meat in close quarters and actually only versus a barbarian.

Please note that I have not mentioned the notion of other hidden perks such as Hit chance, minor improvements in evasion, Attack speed and so on. If we took those elements in an by themselves they would not be an issue and serve to promote diversity. The fact that all this plus the above mention perks can and are are rolled up into a singular package on a level 60 marks is what I suppose concerns some people.

You can apply this argument formula to the barb class as well .

Possible ideas for discussion
My thoughts on the wey for marks are not to revert the range. NGD will rarely consider this as they do not revert. The focus should be on the range and efficiency on the spells themselves.
Range booster spells need to have a malus. That could either be attack speed or hit chance or critical chance malus. Certain spells probably need to have a range cap considered like Burst of wind and ethereal arrow.
Some spells probably need a revamp like ethereal arrow operating as a finishing spell like throat cutter.
Recharged arrows maybe a conceptual change to using a HP drain per arrow instead of a mana drain. (place your life force into an arrow to impact more power.)
Revamp certain protection spells like strategic position to give protection against ranged but a protection malus versus melee damage.
These are not definitive ideas but probably a place to start discussions again.

Regards

Gnupis

04-02-2012, 07:51 AM

What I do to fight marksmen on 1vs1 (hunter)

1)Treehug
2) camo
3)sneak close and ambush OR run
4)if not run use whatever combo you have for massive damage
5) a.if his hp is still over 50% stun and run. you don't stand a chance now but maybe you can still track them and stalk them till they get themselves in another fight.
b.if he has taken enough dmg try to finish them off with whatever spells and attacks you have left. If you add confuse and its not an above average marks you have a good chance to survive their damage.

if my tactic doesn't sound so cool to you blame ngd, not me. hunters are forced to play as dirty as possible to survive.

_Enio_

04-02-2012, 08:54 AM

I like your structured post bois.

In my opinion to fix marks there is no real way around reducing their range, however that is a fix for marks gameplay (whichd fix some of the marks issues aswell), toning them down you can achieve with other means, keeping them boring but less of a pain. However with the current range kept same a gameplay relying on staying out of reach will just keep working. Only fix reducing it without reverting range would be to give a considerable damage malus (im against adding more roulette by giving hc malus aswell as the fun killer of as malus), for normals and spells alike. It would make marks taking risk of going in reach alot more effective, thus bring a positive change in standart gameplay.
Considering scaling spell damage isnt even implemented yet i doubt this is gonna come soon.

bois

04-02-2012, 12:18 PM

Theoretically speaking, reverting the range is indeed the simplest and most effective way. A way you suggested some time ago and continue to champion. It is a method that I did agree with.
However, I am also forced to look at the track record of NGD Developers. It is extremely rare for them to revert anything in even the most miniscule way. Only 2 examples come to mind. The save issue and variable knock duration (which never made it to the production servers if I remember correctly).
They only relent under constant and sustained pressure on several servers (RA mainly).
With the pressure on this item being only a rumbling like an upset stomach, I don't see range revision coming to pass easily although they have surprised me before.
Hence my other suggestions. I did forget to mention before that if foresight was to have a malus, it would become a toggle spell.

Other than that I see no problem of playing higher rates of roulette the further away you attack from and having to use other spells to keep your hit chance intact for example, Trained eye/Eagle eye (mana drain/power point sink). You could choose to risk touching into risk range and playing no roulette penalty at all. In addition, you start to invoke slightly different builds because of power point distributions. You can't just look at it from the point of the malus but also from power points, using currently unnecessary spells and forging some kind of diversity.
The notion I have is not to force the marks into risk range but they would have fringe benefit possibilities of doing so. For example, if you want to use Ethereal arrow, the spell is powerful enough that you should be encouraged into risk range to use it.
Take the timing and chaining issue out of spells like distracting shot by giving it a variable duration.
If NGD does not want to revert range then other ways will have to be suggested (good or bad) to try and set a seed.

roonwick

04-02-2012, 01:29 PM

The save issue and variable knock duration (which never made it to the production servers if I remember correctly).
not sure if it was in before, but sultar's terror has variable knock duration.

GIO879

04-03-2012, 09:15 PM

Archonaut

04-04-2012, 01:28 PM

Its relly time for you to learn how to play well !!!!

Lol he´s right, the only class that can handle Marksman with equal cc´s but defenitely lower damage is Warlock. If they have tree´s of course, if it´s open field then well.. Just go rest so you die faster.

shade555

04-10-2012, 02:48 PM

Its relly time for you to learn how to play well !!!!

LoL man, you're using a marks too, a marks and a barb try using an hunter for instance and we will see how mutch "playing good" as you do can help.

I'll tell u the truth I have an hunter and a mark aswell, I feel retarded when I play the hunter 'cause I hit for 50 dmgs while I feel like a tank with the mark.

As a mark you are second to no one with range, you have the second best armor after knights, the second best dmg after barb and almost the first for control skills like freeze and dizzy due to high range.

You have acrobacy, evasive tactics and strategic position to defend yourself, SoTW to completely ignore enemy powers.
You can freeze every 20 second and dizzy from 0 range for 10 seconds, you can even stun for a lot of time and slow down the enemies at area with the lighting arrow.
Every critical hit is like a meteor but without cast, cooldown etc... and from 40+ meters.
If it wasn't enought you're still the best to run away from enemies, even better than an hunter, they have to be behind trees or rocks for camo... And they cannot freeze or slow everyone with one shot

The only way a lock like me can kill you, is only by treehugging waiting that you come nearer. If you don't come nearer I can't do anything. So please the next time if you have to write something... Think of it before write >_>

Nils_Dacke

04-10-2012, 10:32 PM

You can freeze every 20 second

CD of Winter Stroke is 25s, not 20.

Nils_Dacke

04-11-2012, 06:13 PM

How should a normal character kill a mark? ...They have everything and every 20 seconds! They can run, freeze, dizzy, stun... they can stay 40 meters away and kill you and if u try to rush em u will get freeze... It's so f*** impossible to kill those guys, they have total supremacy.

The max range of a marks is actually more than 40m, for max 75% of the time. But if you play it on the limit of your own max range, you also give the enemy the option of leaving your range, and then you spent all that mana and and cooldown time for achieving nothing. Particulary when your DoT's are cancelled.

But to the point:

First of all, RO is not a game where we duel eachother 1vs1 in some gay ritual way. We play in whole realms against other realms and anything goes. The more we are, the merrier. A discussion about how one primadonna from one subclass duels with another primadonna from another subclass is out of scope of the concept of teamplay and tactics. (tactics always involve more than one from each team; you can't do basic drill all alone, duh) We are supposed to depend on our wingmen for survival in combat. All five of them.

In your sig, you have only archers and mages. So I assume it is only the relation between these two base classes you address, and that you by 'normal character' mean a mage. Then the answer is: you're not supposed to beat them, they are supposed to beat you. Mages are the primary target for archers. The role of an archer is (ought to be) to support (primarily) their allied warriors by making enemy mages miserable, who in turn have warriors as their primary targets.

So if you feel miserable as a mage because of archers harassing you, everything is in order and there is no need to be alarmed. The implementation of the combat triangle could be improved in this game though, to say the least.

And the range assymetry goes just as well for hunters as for marksmen. You can outplay an enemy with nothing but ensnaring arrow (preferably combined with a good long bow and Cold Blood) if you know what you are doing and the enemy doesn't. Well, on a warrior anyway. Mages just dispell the running speed debuff once every 10th second, along with any other debuff or DoT except Confuse you throw at them...

I am more worried about the relation archer vs warrior. In my opinion, a warrior should have the upper hand there. But the truth is, it is easier to outplay a warrior with a marks or hunter than the mages that are supposed to be the primary targets for archers. Mainly because of Dispell Magic.

If the idea is that the two subclasses of each base class is meant to be one defensive subclass (high protection/evasion/endurance etc, low attack) and one aggressive subclass (high attack, low endurance) as it is with barbarians vs knights or warlocks vs conjurers, then the hunters should have the extra protection of strategic position. (which is the only difference between hunter and marksman when it comes to defense) On the other hand, they have just re-introduced invisible pets, so perhaps their intent (that's a laugh) is that hunter is the aggressive subclass and marksman is the defensive subclass -- ?

I've been playing my low/mid-lvl marks on Ra more than my high-lvl marks on Horus lately, but skilled the Ra char up with (if I remember it right now) only two skill points in evasions and two in tricks (the range caps makes most of that skill tree useless). Instead, I invested in a stealthy mount and use range and speed for protection. (i.e. a lot of outflanking) It has been going quite well. Gained 13 leves so far without grinding. Marksmen who play with long range don't really need protection skills, except from the re-introduced trolltards of course. In regular battles, you can use range as protection. Well at least on a server where you can hope to have allies nearby almost anywhere.

I wish that debuffs and DoT's actually worked on mages though (only two works: confuse and BoW, the rest are crippled beyond the point of defunctional), and that there were debuffs for marksmen aimed specifically at mages. Dispell Magic on oneself is to blame here; a general-purpose, no-brain cure for anything.

The few non-damaging debuffs there are in the aiming skill tree are all aimed at warriors, and so are the DoT's. That's a fundamental flaw, imho. Mages should be the primary target for archers, to prevent them from massacring the allied warriors with CC's and DoT's or healing&protecting enemy warriors. Not that anyone ever uses these aiming skill tree debuffs. Sure you gain rp and xp points by tossing meaningless debuffs like finger crush(5) or cyclope's curse(5) on enemies (I have tried it), but it has no real effect on the outcome of the battle. It would make more sense to have skills for debuffing cast speed, spell focus, and intelligence, than for debuffing concentration, constitution and hit chance. Provided of course, that those debuffs couldn't be cancelled after, on average, 5 seconds.

standistortion

04-11-2012, 06:30 PM

Indoril

04-11-2012, 11:33 PM

In RvR, marks kill mages (conjus with stoneskin excluded) significantly faster than mages (locks) kill barbs. Depriving a barb of mana (mana burn/energy borrow) or causing him to retreat (darkness) is easy, killing one on the other hand usually takes at least 5 dots + fireball, meteor, etc. Apart from recharged arrows, a marks doesn't need spells to kill or care much about DI on a lock; normals will do the job. So much for the combat triangle.

GIO879

04-14-2012, 03:51 PM

LoL man, you're using a marks too, a marks and a barb try using an hunter for instance and we will see how mutch "playing good" as you do can help.

I'll tell u the truth I have an hunter and a mark aswell, I feel retarded when I play the hunter 'cause I hit for 50 dmgs while I feel like a tank with the mark.

As a mark you are second to no one with range, you have the second best armor after knights, the second best dmg after barb and almost the first for control skills like freeze and dizzy due to high range.

You have acrobacy, evasive tactics and strategic position to defend yourself, SoTW to completely ignore enemy powers.
You can freeze every 20 second and dizzy from 0 range for 10 seconds, you can even stun for a lot of time and slow down the enemies at area with the lighting arrow.
Every critical hit is like a meteor but without cast, cooldown etc... and from 40+ meters.
If it wasn't enought you're still the best to run away from enemies, even better than an hunter, they have to be behind trees or rocks for camo... And they cannot freeze or slow everyone with one shot

The only way a lock like me can kill you, is only by treehugging waiting that you come nearer. If you don't come nearer I can't do anything. So please the next time if you have to write something... Think of it before write >_>

haha funny answer

I have 1 hunter so ... lvl 50 with ~40k rp
So with a hunter you can go so close of the enemy and wait the good moment with your camuflage, ambush , confuse ....
You can't have all the range , the camu , the damages , the pet, the speed
And for the armor the marksman have strategic position only, but the armor of the hunter is realy better as the one of the marks so i don't see any difference i do more damge to a marksman than a hunter only with accrobatic and evasive tactics so stop with this kind of bullshit

LEARN TO PLAY and stop to cry :dumbofme:

A hunter is not to do for front's attack ( but i know few who they does that well but they are very rich and had a lot of premium)

Look at the ranking and see who and where i am ( RA server) i think i know what i say !!!!!

Kaixo

04-17-2012, 03:08 PM

haha funny answer

I have 1 hunter so ... lvl 50 with ~40k rp
So with a hunter you can go so close of the enemy and wait the good moment with your camuflage, ambush , confuse ....
You can't have all the range , the camu , the damages , the pet, the speed
And for the armor the marksman have strategic position only, but the armor of the hunter is realy better as the one of the marks so i don't see any difference i do more damge to a marksman than a hunter only with accrobatic and evasive tactics so stop with this kind of bullshit

LEARN TO PLAY and stop to cry :dumbofme:

A hunter is not to do for front's attack ( but i know few who they does that well but they are very rich and had a lot of premium)

Look at the ranking and see who and where i am ( RA server) i think i know what i say !!!!!
Yeah, you know to run very well and to hunt with a group or running archers but sorry I don't need those lessons don't you don't know very well what you say.
Armor of marksmen is better.
They have more buffs than hunters for defense and they have more range, so they have far better defense.
The way you describe how to use a hunter is practically only good for hunting grinders alone.

GIO879

04-17-2012, 09:48 PM

Yeah, you know to run very well and to hunt with a group or running archers but sorry I don't need those lessons don't you don't know very well what you say.
Armor of marksmen is better.
They have more buffs than hunters for defense and they have more range, so they have far better defense.
The way you describe how to use a hunter is practically only good for hunting grinders alone.
I realy don't agree, hunter armor is the same with in use 200 mana less don't look only at the skill but look at the specificity of the armor
This is exactly what i say each time here on this forum , play more and speak less
i can tell i don't see the difference when i shot a hunter or a marksman
you should learn how to use your hunter and your spell

Kitsuni

04-18-2012, 09:19 AM

I love how people say "if a marks gets close I can kill him". Clearly you never fought a marks with dirty fighting and level 5 SoTW at a tree. Let's see how long you survive 500 normals while he is immune to spells and can still tank pretty good with Acrobatics, Evasive tactics, Retaliation, and tons of CCs. I've always said that Marks are actually the most dangerous in melee range because then they can hit like barbs while still being well protected and marks that are killed when they get close just suck or got unlucky.

Regardless of what range they attack you they always have the either the best or second best of everything compared to the other classes. Even if a marks is played like another class, the Marks will win in the same situations with a proper setup that mimics how the other class behaves. This jack of all trades design is exactly what makes them unbeatable when mastered. Beyond any doubt, Marks is OP. Not as much as they were in the past, but still prety bad. :)

P.S. See the first character in my signature.

pieceofmeat

04-18-2012, 11:38 AM

Shwish

04-18-2012, 11:43 AM

_Enio_

04-18-2012, 02:08 PM

This post hit the nail on the head.

kinda offtopic but: Not really, esp. the 1st paragraph.. SoW5&DF near a tree.. c'mon thats stoopidly easy to hug away.

Kitsuni

04-18-2012, 05:18 PM

I love playing as marks (when its not boring, at least), but hate facing them, that's simple how things are from me as someone who plays other classes too. Even if you know how to play good, beating a Marksman with half-decent gear is a seriously frustrating struggle regardless of what class you are on.

Most effective counters:
Barb: Slow, MS
Conjuror: Dizzy, Confuse, MS
Hunter: Anything
Knight: Slow, Confuse, CC (esp. Immobilize), MS
Warlock: Dizzy, MS
Marksman: ???????? (hope you get lucky?)

To me it just feels like the class has no real weaknesses. Of course everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

Quincebo

04-19-2012, 10:47 AM

It's good to see that even marksmans says that they are the most OP class in-game:thumb:

Kaixo

04-19-2012, 11:02 AM

I realy don't agree, hunter armor is the same with in use 200 mana less don't look only at the skill but look at the specificity of the armor
This is exactly what i say each time here on this forum , play more and speak less
i can tell i don't see the difference when i shot a hunter or a marksman
you should learn how to use your hunter and your spell
I would say read more and talk less about things that you don't know.
But if you still don't know all classes has an armor factor that goes on this order:
Knight>Barbarian>Marksman>Hunter>Warlock>Conjurer
And more is better, so a marksman has better armor than a hunter. It's not a great difference but...

If you don't see a difference when you shoot to a marksman or a hunter then you are blind, unless you are referring to a situation without buffs, but talking about balance that is a weak argument, a hunter hits for much less than a marksman, buffed a marksman reduces more the range damage and it has more range.

I know how to use my hunter (and there are better players and worse) and with a marksman (and with my same skill) I kill faster, easier, and receive less hits on more situations. It's easy to distinguish between balance and skill, you should try to do it sometime.

Kaixo

04-19-2012, 11:12 AM

Most effective counters:
Barb: Slow, MS
Conjuror: Dizzy, Confuse, MS
Hunter: Anything
Knight: Slow, Confuse, CC (esp. Immobilize), MS
Warlock: Dizzy, MS
Marksman: ???????? (hope you get lucky?)
Confuse is now only for hunters.

To me it just feels like the class has no real weaknesses. Of course everyone is entitled to their own opinions.
That's what I said practically 2 years ago on the balance forum.
Damage: 2nd, barbarian has more DPS but you can hit sooner.
Defense: 2nd because knights have DI, best defense to range attacks, best range that applies also to your defense.
Range: 1st, it benefits your attack and defense.
Speed: 3rd
CCs: 2nd
Life: 3rd/4

Angel_de_Combate

04-19-2012, 12:09 PM

This jack of all trades design is exactly what makes them unbeatable when mastered.

The phrase goes "Jack of all trades, master of none." - sorry to nit pick. :)

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_of_all_trades,_master_of_none

On topic: I agree with everything kitsunie has to say, marks are most certainly OP, are my favourite class and always will be. Except before you just needed a good bow and good marks skills, not sure if this is still true though...

roonwick

04-19-2012, 12:28 PM

The phrase goes "Jack of all trades, master of none." - sorry to nit pick. :)

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_of_all_trades,_master_of_none

On topic: I agree with everything kitsunie has to say, marks are most certainly OP, are my favourite class and always will be. Except before you just needed a good bow and good marks skills, not sure if this is still true though...

ah... but then the marks is master of range, and at least average at all the other stuff. Master of none does not apply. marksmen have no real weakness, and are the masters of ranged damage.

Quincebo

04-19-2012, 12:30 PM

But if you still don't know all classes has an armor factor that goes on this order:
Knight>Barbarian>Marksman>Hunter>Warlock>Conjurer

You play marks most of the times:confused:

Angel_de_Combate

04-19-2012, 12:38 PM

ah... but then the marks is master of range, and at least average at all the other stuff. Master of none does not apply. marksmen have no real weakness, and are the masters of ranged damage.

I just like the phrase. :p

Marks are like kitsunie said, pretty damn nice at melee when I played on Ra I preferred playing up close(with a short bow) than as a ranged marks. On Horus I liked a bit of both. Marks tank like a knight and hit like a barb, if you play them right that is. :D

pieceofmeat

04-19-2012, 02:41 PM

I would say read more and talk less about things that you don't know.
But if you still don't know all classes has an armor factor that goes on this order:
Knight>Barbarian>Marksman>Hunter>Warlock>Conjurer
And more is better, so a marksman has better armor than a hunter. It's not a great difference but...

Are you sure and what is your source?

Last i saw about this was old dev quotes from 2007 or so.
Then it was 1.8 knights, 1.4 barbs, 1.2 mages/archers and 1.0 mobs.

Test with this in 2010 revealed no such factor, using equal values and no shields between barbarians and knights.

Additionally there are other factors, such as how many pieces of armor and how much coverage each piece give.

According to this site http://kit.snuggly1.com/armor/
there is also no armor factor difference between knights (with no shield) and barbarians. Only a small one compared to archers. Correct or not, i dont know.

It also say mages have the best damage resistance of all classes and thats with only 4 pieces.

But it seems to be extremely small differences and nothing like the old armor factors.

What a mess, NGD!

Kaixo

04-19-2012, 04:04 PM

Are you sure and what is your source?
Update 1.6.3 2010/9/21.
http://www.regnumonlinegame.com/index.php?l=1&sec=27&subsec=4&cl=94
Armor class factor working as intended: we increased the armor factor for all classes but now each class has a different armor factor. From more to less armor this is the order: Knights, barbarian, Marksman, Hunter, Warlock, Conjurer.
And the differences increased with warmaster expansion, more armor bonus=more difference, balance was broken with that expansion, primarily on the attack-defense proportions. At least now mages has an extra slot of armor to correct that lose.

Kitsuni

04-19-2012, 04:48 PM

Are you sure and what is your source?

Last i saw about this was old dev quotes from 2007 or so.
Then it was 1.8 knights, 1.4 barbs, 1.2 mages/archers and 1.0 mobs.

Test with this in 2010 revealed no such factor, using equal values and no shields between barbarians and knights.

Additionally there are other factors, such as how many pieces of armor and how much coverage each piece give.

According to this site http://kit.snuggly1.com/armor/
there is also no armor factor difference between knights (with no shield) and barbarians. Only a small one compared to archers. Correct or not, i dont know.

It also say mages have the best damage resistance of all classes and thats with only 4 pieces.

But it seems to be extremely small differences and nothing like the old armor factors.

What a mess, NGD!
You are mostly right, however during WM update NGD inverted the curve from its past implementation:

Archers: 55% damage resist per AP
Mages: 60% damage resist per AP
Warriors: 50% damage resist per AP

The difference is small and hard to notice, unless you use fixed-damage spells like Winter stroke, and all Normal to that damage type armor.

This may seem silly at first, because archers and mages have lower armor points, however I think NGD intended them to benefit more from BUFFs than warriors, hence why they gain more damage resistance as their armor increases compared to warriors; I guess to make buffs like Heroic presence more useful to lightly armored classes.

And then:
Caution : +30% AP
Evasive tactics: +55% AP
Force shield: +30% AP

And for the Knight and mages, the Shield and Bracelet add extra armor, so the coefficients for these classes add up to more than 100% of armor.
(Specifically, the Knight has +25% extra armor point as compared to the Barbarian, which is equal to an archer.)

Warriors tank the best when unbuffed (especially with passives), archers tank the best when buffed, at least to low damages. Mages would be the leaders in this area, except that they lack anything like passives, the armor bonus spell is only available to one class (Conjuror), and the bonus is small.

Despite people doubting our findings over the years, I assure you they are correct. We had a test team of over ten people.

Nils_Dacke

04-20-2012, 05:56 AM

Your missing another part of that triangle though, mages don't do much damage and the cc end of things is crippled by banners. Marks and barbs have had attention, looks like hunter is getting some now and hopefully other classes wont be too far behind.

I'm sorry? What (other) part of the combat triangle are you saying that I am missing?

Again: archers are supposed to beat mages. (Warlocks not doing "much damage" - eh?)

Archonaut

04-20-2012, 08:24 AM

I'm sorry? What (other) part of the combat triangle are you saying that I am missing?

Again: archers are supposed to beat mages. (Warlocks not doing "much damage" - eh?)

What the hell? If by mages you mean Conjurers only then yes, but every offensive subclass should have the same chance to beat eachother. Warlock should be able to kill a marksman, marksman should be able to kill a warlock (no shit sherlock). Also barbarian should have equal chances while fighting marks and warlock. Why should archers supposed to beat mages? What kind of sence does that maken.

Warlock in overal don't do a lot damage no, compare warlocks with marksman. They're practically warlocks with bows, they have a great ammount of CC's, have unbelieveably high normals (with decent gear only already) sick range...
Let me guess, your main character is a Marksman.

standistortion

04-20-2012, 09:34 AM

I'm sorry? What (other) part of the combat triangle are you saying that I am missing?

Again: archers are supposed to beat mages. (Warlocks not doing "much damage" - eh?)
Warlocks don't do much damage, at high levels they have a lot of damage spells available but they all have a cast time, in terms of damage per second a lock can't come close to marks or barb. Where locks have the advantage is CC's, however Horus was flooded with beacons so locks where more or less pointless and the class was dying out. For now that 3 way balance is working but will become unbalanced again as more players reach warmaster.

GIO879

04-21-2012, 05:49 PM

Confuse is now only for hunters.

That's what I said practically 2 years ago on the balance forum.
Damage: 2nd, barbarian has more DPS but you can hit sooner.
Defense: 2nd because knights have DI, best defense to range attacks, best range that applies also to your defense.
Range: 1st, it benefits your attack and defense.
Speed: 3rd
CCs: 2nd
Life: 3rd/4

i confirm and i sign hunter armor is better than a marksman armor buffs engaged they are the same, omg compare the statistics of the 2 armors !!!

you don't know how to use your hunter, because you should go to him camu, ambush confuse cold blood , ensware 2 normal , break appart and the marks is dead ..... learn how to play, or come on RA i ll show you few good hunters ...

This what i said you want everything camou, damages , speed , range the pet etc ....

Kaixo

04-22-2012, 08:24 PM

i confirm and i sign hunter armor is better than a marksman armor buffs engaged they are the same, omg compare the statistics of the 2 armors !!!

you don't know how to use your hunter, because you should go to him camu, ambush confuse cold blood , ensware 2 normal , break appart and the marks is dead ..... learn how to play, or come on RA i ll show you few good hunters ...

This what i said you want everything camou, damages , speed , range the pet etc ....
The statistics are the same for all armors. :dumbofme:
Buffed? ...marksman has strategic position. :dumbofme:
I don't know if I should keep discussing this, it's so obvious.

Perhaps if I had a dragon amulet, 2 epic rings, a super bow, and a stupid marksman that don't know to use defensive buffs or has 1/2 his life...
And only PvP.
I want more damage for hunters, it was lowered a lot with a big balance change and then it was lowered more with the warmasters expansion. If you are not a premium user with really good set good luck doing more than minimum damage, I find hunters that hit 15-20x more, this is absurd, it's difficult to play 15-20 x times better than the rival. Long gone are the days were premium wouldn't affect gameplay.

What you are saying on a thread called "marksman supremacy" is that hunters have more armor with buffs and without buffs and that we should learn to play, and you use a marksman. :rolleyes:

Quincebo

04-22-2012, 09:21 PM

The statistics are the same for all armors. :dumbofme:
Buffed? ...marksman has strategic position. :dumbofme:
I don't know if I should keep discussing this, it's so obvious.

Perhaps if I had a dragon amulet, 2 epic rings, a super bow, and a stupid marksman that don't know to use defensive buffs or has 1/2 his life...
And only PvP.
I want more damage for hunters, it was lowered a lot with a big balance change and then it was lowered more with the warmasters expansion. If you are not a premium user with really good set good luck doing more than minimum damage, I find hunters that hit 15-20x more, this is absurd, it's difficult to play 15-20 x times better than the rival. Long gone are the days were premium wouldn't affect gameplay.

What you are saying on a thread called "marksman supremacy" is that hunters have more armor with buffs and without buffs and that we should learn to play, and you use a marksman. :rolleyes:
+1
ten chars
:thumb:

GIO879

04-23-2012, 03:36 PM

Tamui

04-23-2012, 03:44 PM

OMG

hit of the hunter + hit of the pet is more od the marksman hit !!!

when you're off or hiden behind a tree ( rock) your pet is still hiting and

for the pvp i don't know why you not go camu and wait the good moment to attack, any rules forbids that !!!

So and not all the armors aren't the same learn how is the game before talking please... :crying1:
I stop to answer you ...:bangin: :dumbofme:

Because they don't want to look noobs maybe?(no offense)
Marksman is OP ok, but it doesn't mean he can't loose.
Being in camo, go on an unbuffed marks Confuse(3-5) Sudden Strike, Break Apart,Ambush Rapid+DF+CB combo hitting 500a reducing a marks health to 2/5. Confuse ends, Softw, Ensnaring with couple of normal hits, he dies before he has teh chance to buff properly

Quincebo

04-23-2012, 04:20 PM

hit of the hunter + hit of the pet is more od the marksman hit !!!

Clarification please!
And how many lvl 60 hunters were using pets?
Not many, since hunters has to go camo (since they are good at going in camo)

Being in camo, go on an unbuffed marks Confuse(3-5) Sudden Strike, Break Apart,Ambush Rapid+DF+CB combo hitting 500a reducing a marks health to 2/5. Confuse ends, Softw, Ensnaring with couple of normal hits, he dies before he has teh chance to buff properly

And that same marks still deals 300/400+ unbuffed on an unbuffed hunter(since the hunter came out of camo)
And an hunter doesnt deal 500 normals, even with DF+CB.
The marks can still buy time with WS spam(since they can cast it under confuse)

Castingbeast

04-23-2012, 04:51 PM

Being in camo, go on an unbuffed marks Confuse(3-5) Sudden Strike, Break Apart,Ambush Rapid+DF+CB combo hitting 500a reducing a marks health to 2/5. Confuse ends, Softw, Ensnaring with couple of normal hits, he dies before he has teh chance to buff properly

Confuse has ended while the hunter was buffing the marvelous "rapid shot+DF+CB combo" (if it was lvl3 for sure), marks gets up and freezes hunter, buffs up with acrobatic+evasive and strategic, goes behind hunter and tries to BoW him when hunter unfreezes, hunter casts SOTW, so does marks +rapid shot, marks hits at least 250-400 on hunter while hunter hits 30-70 on marks ( if he is lucky), SOTW ends on both sides when marks using serpent bite on hunter and freezing him again, goes behind him for the ambush, 1-2 normals on him+EA and the hunter is most likely dead.

Just my script xD.

So i dont think if the marks knows whats his doing can be beaten by a hunter not even if the hunter knows whats he doing as well. Maybe yes if the hunter has uber gear and marks does not.
Marks are indeed a bit strong especially against mages atm, locks are dead meat when facing a marks in a fort war, they have absolutely no defense against range attacks, wind wall is a crap, has to be improved sightly...

Oh, and NGD pls give the very subclass that is relying on her spells ONLY a god damned dizzy resist passive, would make sense imho (sry for the off topic ) :).

Tamui

04-23-2012, 05:00 PM

And that same marks still deals 300/400+ unbuffed on an unbuffed hunter(since the hunter came out of camo)
And an hunter doesnt deal 500 normals, even with DF+CB.
The marks can still buy time with WS spam(since they can cast it under confuse)

Oh, I guess I'm going blind since I remember being hit by a hutner 500s while I hit him 200s buffed with recharged

@CastingBeast. What does EA stands for?
And, it is easier to say than do xD
I mean, I may have some invalid points,but I'm sure not wrong when I recieved 500s and I hit 200s. Sure you may be right, I go behind him WS/BoW/etc. But Normally Hunters have Softw 5 while I have it on 2. And that Dist(4/5)...yeah after that, Stunning Fist, DF & Ambush will be ready too.

Castingbeast

04-23-2012, 05:17 PM

Oh, I guess I'm going blind since I remember being hit by a hutner 500s (he must have used Cold Blood yep) while I hit him 200s buffed with recharged

@CastingBeast. What does EA stands for?
And, it is easier to say than do xD (Practice makes perfect xD)
I mean, I may have some invalid points,but I'm sure not wrong when I recieved 500s and I hit 200s. Sure you may be right, I go behind him WS/BoW/etc. But Normally Hunters have Softw 5 while I have it on 2. And that Dist(4/5)...yeah after that, Stunning Fist, DF & Ambush will be ready too.

EA: http://regnum.wikia.com/wiki/Ethereal_Arrow :D.

PS: Told ya, it was just my script, nothing more.

Freeverse

04-23-2012, 05:22 PM

And an hunter doesnt deal 500 normals, even with DF+CB.

A 60 lvl hunter with a good bow doesn't even need DF to deal 500 normals on an unbuffed enemy (warriors with good armour and passive def against dmg can be an exception). Cold Blood is enough to deal normals: +/- 500 and
crits from 700 up.

Tamui

04-23-2012, 05:38 PM

Yes ofcourse, I'm saying 500+ from a fully buffed Hunter
A 60 lvl hunter with a good bow doesn't even need DF to deal 500 normals on an unbuffed enemy (warriors with good armour and passive def against dmg can be an exception). Cold Blood is enough to deal normals: +/- 500 and
crits from 700 up.
HA! See how it is possible!

GIO879

04-23-2012, 06:22 PM

Clarification please!
And how many lvl 60 hunters were using pets?
Not many, since hunters has to go camo (since they are good at going in camo)

And that same marks still deals 300/400+ unbuffed on an unbuffed hunter(since the hunter came out of camo)
And an hunter doesnt deal 500 normals, even with DF+CB.
The marks can still buy time with WS spam(since they can cast it under confuse)

pffffff i got more 700 damages in 1 hit and answare at 1000

The real problem is : before the update the hunters won all them pvps (or at least 80%) the hunters haves the same chance to win a pvp against a marksman( or others classe), they doesn't agree about the 50% it seams

pieceofmeat

04-23-2012, 06:28 PM

With only CB i would say 500 hits are more than rare on lvl 60 targets, regardless of class, add SS or DF and you will get some 500 high-end hits on poorly armoured lvl 60s.

As a reference, I use both lvl 4 specialist and the 15% dex WM bonus to reach around 330-395 base.

Quincebo

04-23-2012, 08:10 PM

pffffff i got more 700 damages in 1 hit and answare at 1000

The real problem is : before the update the hunters won all them pvps (or at least 80%) the hunters haves the same chance to win a pvp against a marksman( or others classe), they doesn't agree about the 50% it seams

What level is your marks?
I dont understand how you can take 1000 ensnaring arrow in a pvp

Freeverse

04-23-2012, 08:33 PM

What level is your marks?
I dont understand how you can take 1000 ensnaring arrow in a pvp

Lvl 60 hunter vs unbuffed lvl 60 marks
No Sudden Strike. No Dirty Fighting. Just Cold Blood.
Possible? Possible.

Look screenshot below.

Archonaut

04-23-2012, 08:48 PM

Lvl 60 hunter vs unbuffed lvl 60 marks
No Sudden Strike. No Dirty Fighting. Just Cold Blood.
Possible? Possible.

Look screenshot below.

Show us the amu, weapons, buffs and gear you had on that moment too please :).

It's impossible to crit that high even with cold blood with normal gear, and weapons with no other buff on.. My gear is, I think, above average and even I don't hit that much on an unbuffed marksman. Never ever ever.

pieceofmeat

04-23-2012, 09:24 PM

Lvl 60 hunter vs unbuffed lvl 60 marks
No Sudden Strike. No Dirty Fighting. Just Cold Blood.
Possible? Possible.

Look screenshot below.

That is onslaught, you dont make 400 normals and 1k crits.

71175

04-23-2012, 09:38 PM

Show us the amu, weapons, buffs and gear you had on that moment too please :).

It's impossible to crit that high even with cold blood with normal gear, and weapons with no other buff on.. My gear is, I think, above average and even I don't hit that much on an unbuffed marksman. Never ever ever.

Thes has crap physical defence. All i can say verse hardly does 700 ensharing on my lock.

Freeverse

04-23-2012, 09:45 PM

Show us the amu,

Amu? What amu? I wish i had one. Really xD

weapons,

An Antic long bow with base dmg 85-120 (+27) +5 +13

buffs and gear ,

Just Cold Blood. I very rarley use DF, 90% of the time i don't even have it in my setup

Although it's possible - like pieceofmeat suggested - that someone casted onslaught on me. Don't think so, but i can't swear for that.

Kitsuni

04-23-2012, 11:54 PM

Lvl 60 hunter vs unbuffed lvl 60 marks
No Sudden Strike. No Dirty Fighting. Just Cold Blood.
Possible? Possible.

Look screenshot below.
http://i.imgur.com/xliSm.png

This is from my Level 57 Hunter, decent-ish Ancient longbow, DS rings, avenger amulet, and the new high level arrows with a bonus.

He was also Sudden strike'ed from an ally prior to his casting of SOTW and Escapist.

Sorry, but there's no excuse for that.

Also: http://i.imgur.com/qMvwh.jpg

No amulet in these tests, and only a few buffs required. The effective attack range with this kind of damage is 31.5 meters, and the setup is still robust.

The attack speed penalty can be offset with Hawk's gaze.

71175

04-24-2012, 04:12 AM

Kitsuni

04-24-2012, 06:40 AM

You forgot to say it is knight on 1st screen. So screenies of max dmg hunter doing norms on mobs and war set marks doing norms on knight xD .
Nope, it was a Marksman and he was alone, not a war situation or hunt group or buffed by any ally.

I can do the same thing on my Marks when I use all level 5 buffs and wear full WM armor or full elite armor with good resists. There is a certain threshold that is easily reached when mixing percentage-based damage reductions and protection buffs, where you start doing no damage at all. This is less of a problem on other classes as compared to the marksman because Caution and Force armor are both only 30% (rather than Evasive's 55%), and the Marks has two percent-based damage reductions.

On top of this, Strategic position works like a reverse-Death sentence, reducing all damage at the most core level regardless of the source.

Anyway...

About getting close to disable Strategic position as others have suggested (or whined)... first of all , that skill is bugged and doesn't alwasy get disabled even if you are right on top of the Marksman due to positioning errors that other things like knocks suffer from. Second, that would only increase my damage to 20. ;)

I find it funny that people think a person who played a Marks as their main since a long time doesnt know how the class works... xD Sorry, but I honestly have to say to all the haters in this thread that, if you honestly believe that Marks doesn't need some serious adjustment in the current implementation due to the nature of their no-weaknesses design, the ability to have strong defense, offense and CCs all at once, then you obviously havent faced them on other classes (esp. Hunter) enough.

Showing less class bias would be a good start to discussing potential solutions.

71175

04-24-2012, 12:48 PM

Nope, it was a Marksman and he was alone, not a war situation or hunt group or buffed by any ally.

I can do the same thing on my Marks when I use all level 5 buffs and wear full WM armor or full elite armor with good resists. There is a certain threshold that is easily reached when mixing percentage-based damage reductions and protection buffs, where you start doing no damage at all. This is less of a problem on other classes as compared to the marksman because Caution and Force armor are both only 30% (rather than Evasive's 55%), and the Marks has two percent-based damage reductions.

On top of this, Strategic position works like a reverse-Death sentence, reducing all damage at the most core level regardless of the source.

Anyway...

About getting close to disable Strategic position as others have suggested (or whined)... first of all , that skill is bugged and doesn't alwasy get disabled even if you are right on top of the Marksman due to positioning errors that other things like knocks suffer from. Second, that would only increase my damage to 20. ;)

I find it funny that people think a person who played a Marks as their main since a long time doesnt know how the class works... xD Sorry, but I honestly have to say to all the haters in this thread that, if you honestly believe that Marks doesn't need some serious adjustment in the current implementation due to the nature of their no-weaknesses design, the ability to have strong defense, offense and CCs all at once, then you obviously havent faced them on other classes (esp. Hunter) enough.

Showing less class bias would be a good start to discussing potential solutions.

Okay, i am confused. If i recall right i do more dmg on knights in def stance.

pieceofmeat

04-24-2012, 01:18 PM

Okay, i am confused. If i recall right i do more dmg on knights in def stance.

Def stance is "only" 25% resist and 150% protection.

Acrobatic + Strat adds up to 65% resist and 55% protection with evasive.

Strat also reduces the amout of raw damage that hit you, then armour reduction and last other resists such as enchants and acrobatic.

GIO879

04-25-2012, 06:39 PM

What level is your marks?
I dont understand how you can take 1000 ensnaring arrow in a pvp

for your information

LVL 60 with 760 000 rp

a confuse suddent strike unbuffed you re dead ...

Hayir

04-25-2012, 06:49 PM

for your information

LVL 60 with 760 000 rp

Interesting, didn't know rps are connected with ensnaring arrow, must be some hidden effect. Hope one day i will have so much rp and be pro like you.

TheMessenger

04-25-2012, 07:06 PM

Interesting, didn't know rps are connected with ensnaring arrow, must be some hidden effect. Hope one day i will have so much rp and be pro like you.

I think he said his amount of rp to show the amount of experience he has, that he is not a noob just saying things.

>inb4 you can have a lot of rp and still be a noob

yes, but you will learn what each class can do, how to buff, etc.

GIO879

04-30-2012, 11:41 AM

Interesting, didn't know rps are connected with ensnaring arrow, must be some hidden effect. Hope one day i will have so much rp and be pro like you.

No , but it s connected with my experience 5 years of game,
This is the problem of this forum a lot of people with only few month of game try tell us how to do and worth how ngd must do ...

i had knew when the hunters was like god ( they could go camu front 10 guys who hits them with any problem)
i had knew when the barbs could give you 2500 south cross with any gem an fulminating !!!!
i had knew the game with any random chance in your SOTW ( i know a lot of people who has stoped the game only for this point , and it still continue)

i can write many more things...

Usely i prefer to say nothing... i think this is the best i have to do

1 NGD never heards what we re saying
2 too much stupid people here , who never understands the things

Regnum_Online

05-03-2012, 02:19 PM

2 too much stupid people here , who never understands the things

This probably isn't your first language, but don't come on an English forum calling everyone stupid in broken English. It really doesn't make you look any better. :cuac:

Quincebo

05-03-2012, 04:08 PM

This probably isn't your first language, but don't come on an English forum calling everyone stupid in broken English. It really doesn't make you look any better. :cuac:

Aaah, comon...Hes from France, so give him a break for not making up a line as proper as you do!

Rising_Cold

05-07-2012, 07:12 AM

This probably isn't your first language, but don't come on an English forum calling everyone stupid in broken English. It really doesn't make you look any better. :cuac:

first of all, he didnt call everyone stupid, but really he got a point there.
Half of the people here think they know better and wont listen to a thing others say
or just try to make fun of them..

secondly, that someone cant speak 'proper' english, or cant write it,
is not supposed to be an argument that his argument was wrong.
It doesnt look good and its hard to read, but the stuff said should not be connected to that
and I sure hope people will see that someday.

(Last of all, this was not an 'attack' on you, but Im pretty sure that if someone
points this out, others will think the same.)

_Emin_

05-08-2012, 01:30 PM

This probably isn't your first language, but don't come on an English forum calling everyone stupid in broken English. It really doesn't make you look any better. :cuac:

Dafuq?

Probably this guy speaks more languages than you do.

Kaixo

05-14-2012, 11:23 AM

OMG

hit of the hunter + hit of the pet is more od the marksman hit !!!
Depends, prhaps with buffs and debuffs, but against a buffed target damage is low and you also need to be near the same level as the opponent.

when you're off or hiden behind a tree ( rock) your pet is still hiting and
If I'm behind a tree the enemy is also behind the tree unless he has your intelligence, and my pet doesn't hit, worse, it resets it's stance.
And not only with a tree, low profile and it goes to hell, some pets don't hit while running, etc.

for the pvp i don't know why you not go camu and wait the good moment to attack, any rules forbids that !!!
Who says otherwise?

So and not all the armors aren't the same learn how is the game before talking please... :crying1:
I stop to answer you ...:bangin: :dumbofme:
Oh, for gods sake, you are still with this absurd argument, get over it, a marksman has more defense and more armor, practically anyone else but you know this.

Kaixo

05-14-2012, 11:32 AM

Because they don't want to look noobs maybe?(no offense)
Marksman is OP ok, but it doesn't mean he can't loose.
Being in camo, go on an unbuffed marks Confuse(3-5) Sudden Strike, Break Apart,Ambush Rapid+DF+CB combo hitting 500a reducing a marks health to 2/5. Confuse ends, Softw, Ensnaring with couple of normal hits, he dies before he has teh chance to buff properly
Another marksman? :dumbofme:
Nobody said he can't loose, we say it's unbalanced, it's not very difficult to understand if you try.
You are good at dreaming, with that usage of skills you only kill a mob or a noob. The enemy only needs to move a bit and bye bye ambush, try again now with distracting shot, and wasting the ambush for buffs...perhaps before talking about noobs you should try to learn a bit.

Kaixo

05-14-2012, 11:41 AM

http://i.imgur.com/xliSm.png

This is from my Level 57 Hunter, decent-ish Ancient longbow, DS rings, avenger amulet, and the new high level arrows with a bonus.

He was also Sudden strike'ed from an ally prior to his casting of SOTW and Escapist.

Sorry, but there's no excuse for that.
That's all, comparing damage output of a hunter and marksman against each other is absurd. Hunters have a problem with low damage, with their pets and with wars. And the only solution of NGD has been to recover the old flawed combo that practically nobody liked.
Marksmen have a lot of virtues and practically no downsides.

Sorry, but I honestly have to say to all the haters in this thread that, if you honestly believe that Marks doesn't need some serious adjustment in the current implementation due to the nature of their no-weaknesses design, the ability to have strong defense, offense and CCs all at once, then you obviously havent faced them on other classes (esp. Hunter) enough.
I would add range, but you can't say it more clear.