Whats my role?

[Archefiend]

As we all know, all 3 main classes are supposed to be divided in 6 subclasses, and each subclass is the opposite of the other.
Like:
Knights(Defense, support)
Barbarian(Offense, max close combat dmg)
Warlock(Huge area offense, DoTs for warriors)
Conjurer(Heals, Buffs, Mana, etc.)
Marksman(Offense from distance,suppress fire(You dont rush marx, do you?))
AND
Hunter(mysterious x?)

Only spells, which you could call supportive from hunter side is tracking and stalker surroundings(Most often used spell on allies, yeah). In such, It almost seems like hunter isn't intended for RvR, but PvP. These new(old?!) changes with pets in Amun they are testing now makes me believe even more, that hunters are PvP class.

I like this game because its RvR. Although battles arent that big as they were, it's one of those unique games, where you can wage war with massive battles, and thats, why most of us play, but I feel that hunters have too less impact on the wars.

This isn't whining thread. No talking about "Hunters are broken""You lie, hunters kill me all the time" etc.
What I want to ask to all of you is this- How do you see hunter? As pvp or as "special support" class? Or maybe something else? Also, I want to hear this from EVERY class perspective. Not only hunters, but active barbs, conjurers, knights etc.

[71175]

Since i am disappointed in RvR aspect of Horus, i mainly use my classes for hunts. So by my purely subjective opinion NGD just copypasted this class from another MMO without thinking if it fits the game.

[Quincebo]

Hunters are pro in camo'ing in forts who just been taken by an enemy realm, and take it so these poor enemies must fight npc's again

[SilverHaven]

Hunters are pro in camo'ing in forts who just been taken by an enemy realm, and take it so these poor enemies must fight npc's again

lol big +1 here

[Freeverse]

What I want to ask to all of you is this- How do you see hunter? As pvp or as "special support" class?

It is both.
A PvP-class, which can kill other hunters, from time to time marks, conjus with healing-setup and grinders.

It is also a support class. The hunters support-skill is called "Enemy Surveillence"
How often do you read in the chat-window: "track pls", "Any tracks?","x?" etc.?

That's actually what hunters are for in RvR. For tracking ...

[Seher]

And yet another player seeing the real problem with hunters while NGD still doesn’t.

My thoughts: Hunters need a role, something unique. You can ramble about stuff here and throw in tons of ideas, but I’ll just follow the original pattern, the one you’ve already mentioned:

Barbarians: Offense.
Knights: Defense (primarily), support.
Warlocks: Offense.
Conjurers: Defense (well a LOT more defense than warlocks at least!), support (primarily).
Marksmen: Offense.
Hunters: Defense, support? Not now, for sure. What do we need to get there, is this even possible to achieve?
Is support possible? I don’t think so. A class that’s primarily focused on support needs to have something to cast at least every 5 seconds. There’s no way you can do that with camo stuff or tracking (lolololol). It might be possible with including a completely new area of spells, but that’s not what I’m after. I want to stick as close as possible to NGDs’ original plan.

Right now marksmen have a lot of defense. You can argue here that range already is some kind of defense, so they shouldn’t have more of it, but that would dumb down that class even more to stupid hit & run and effectively take away one part of marksmen gameplay (and give it to hunters). But it is one way to go, and all in all definitely better than what we’ve got now! Marksmen staying behind because they’d die otherwise, and hunters getting the defense so that they can survive in front of their army.

Is there a way to not take away one part of marksmen? Yes! Just make hunters more close range, and the main criterion to differ marksmen and hunters isn’t offensive/defensive, it’s high range/low range. This would solve soo many problems. Anyway, here’s my thread about this, feel free to take my idea apart, I’d love to improve it.
http://regnumonlinegame.com/forum/showthread.php?t=76831

That's actually what hunters are for in RvR. For tracking ...

Poorest. Role. Ever.

[Archefiend]

It is both.
A PvP-class, which can kill other hunters, from time to time marks, conjus with healing-setup and grinders.

It is also a support class. The hunters support-skill is called "Enemy Surveillence"
How often do you read in the chat-window: "track pls", "Any tracks?","x?" etc.?

That's actually what hunters are for in RvR. For tracking ...

Im syrtian, we dont have problems with tracking.
Also you need some RO experience , to be a good tracker(I still fail at this sometimes :( ). 230m nw from aggers will mean nothing to newbie. Need to learn all the shortenings, so you could report efficiently. And need skills in fast typing. (I often get in situation when I write "acas 140m n" and acas are already here.) So track isn't a pure support skill(you have to think every time you receive data), it cant even give accurate information! (Rocks, tada!)
I also bolded something important you mentioned, makes me think. Thank you for your opinion.

[Tenel_Ka]

The role of hunter shouldn't just be limited to the "defense/offense" categories we have for some reason.

Hunters are responsible for leading smaller groups through enemy warzones and protecting its own realm's warzone by tracking down enemy hunting groups. They can stalker allies for surprise attacks, or to protect them from a larger force. In RvR, if used tactfully, hunters can monitor the movement of enemy war groups and recapture forts from the inside so their allies can rush inside. They can stalker allies in and out of heavily protected places, such as realm gates and cities. In field fights and fort fights (which are usually closer to the save than fort) they can stalker a group and kill healers at the back, and their spells like death sentence are great in a war group mainly comprised of warriors.

They're the most independent class and the safest in the warzone. It's difficult to catch a hunter off guard if he's paying attention and tracking regularly. In PvP, they CAN beat players of any other class. Their damage in group fights needs help, something like Head of the Pack but not as powerful, but I don't want to go into discussing balance as everyone has their own opinion.

I'm sure there are other uses for hunters, these are just what I could think of in 10 minutes. The role of hunter is only restricted by the creativity of players. The class has a lot of potential and can be great in RvR and PvP if their skills are effectively used.

[Immune]

The role of hunter is only restricted by the creativity of players.
So much this. The defining aspect of hunters is their independence. You get to choose who to attack, when to attack them, and where to attack from. The one thing you really want/need to be able to do as a hunter is predict the reactions of those around you (both friend and foe). To put it in a way that it fits with the lists above, I would label hunters as "Independent support / Interference"

Alone - Hunter can stall reinforcements to forts very well. They are built as a pvp class, but blocking bridges has always been a part of RvR. There's also the "hiding inside enemy forts to capture them" bit, although level 4 forts kind of throws that out the window. You can still kill people who run in with 100hp to rest though; which will often draw some attention away from your allies (assuming they're nearby).

Small Groups - Stalker rushes can work wonders; the only problem is getting other people to go along with it. Their burst damage can easily cause mages to panic and/or force other classes to try to stop you, which often gives your allies a chance to do something. Even just setting your pet on a mage can make them feel forced to run around and make mistakes.

Large Groups - Going camo and attacking people in a zerg from behind may be suicidal, but really it can take them a long time to realize you're there. Being able to CC whoever you want in the back can cause the group to split somewhat. You can also buff your pet with skin of the beast and use it as a distraction; this works particularly well if you have an obnoxiously large pet like the troll of war.

Closing note: The lack of role for a hunter is actually a freedom, in a way. Hunters act as they see fit depending on the situation, whereas all the other classes have some degree of expectations. Of course, I'm not saying they're perfect; obviously there are a plethora of ways they could be improved. I'm just saying, they're not useless.

[VeterKh]

your role - gank grinders.

[Freeverse]

Poorest. Role. Ever.

I don't agree.
Tracking is a ability, which saves asses of other players. Many, many, many times. During hunting. During fortwars. When bridges are camped.

Hunters are responsible for leading smaller groups through enemy warzones and protecting its own realm's warzone by tracking down enemy hunting groups. They can stalker allies for surprise attacks, or to protect them from a larger force. In RvR, if used tactfully, hunters can monitor the movement of enemy war groups and recapture forts from the inside so their allies can rush inside. They can stalker allies in and out of heavily protected places, such as realm gates and cities. [...]

+1
Nothing more to add. That's the hunters role.

[Seher]

They are built as a pvp class, but blocking bridges has always been a part of RvR.

Not everything that’s useful for RvR is part of it. It’s nice and useful to go to the toilet before you go on a trip with your car but it’s still in no way part of driving, lol.

Small Groups - Stalker rushes can work wonders; the only problem is getting other people to go along with it. Their burst damage can easily cause mages to panic and/or force other classes to try to stop you, which often gives your allies a chance to do something. Even just setting your pet on a mage can make them feel forced to run around and make mistakes.

Stalker: Yay, one action every 5 minutes.
Pressure via pet: Not only does it die fast, the pressure of a marksman is superior.

Large Groups - Going camo and attacking people in a zerg from behind may be suicidal, but really it can take them a long time to realize you're there. Being able to CC whoever you want in the back can cause the group to split somewhat. You can also buff your pet with skin of the beast and use it as a distraction; this works particularly well if you have an obnoxiously large pet like the troll of war.

It is suicidal. The time to get there when there’s actually a rush is better used otherwise, even for a hunter. Even if you’d manage to CC someone. Run 20 seconds to disable one enemy for 7 seconds, of course, great tactic.

Closing note: The lack of role for a hunter is actually a freedom, in a way.

You are right. A class with no role can do everything, hunters are actually pretty balanced there, they suck similarly at everything. But: Other classes can work outside their intended fields, too. They might receive odd looks because they’d be better off doing something else, but it works. And for sure not worse than for hunters.

I don't agree.
Tracking is a ability, which saves asses of other players. Many, many, many times. During hunting. During fortwars. When bridges are camped.

Imagine you’ve got a character that can only cast warmaster beacons, and maybe teleports. That would save waaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyy more lives. Is it fun to play? No? But still more fun than being a tracking slave.
Not to mention that you clearly missed that thing called reality. When was the last time a tracking info you’ve read was actually useful? How often do you need tracking info, and do you need it during a fight? (Hunter — the class that’s not supposed to participate in fights, yay!) I’m already saying that casting one thing every minute isn’t enough to give a class a role (booooring!!), and you basically say that casting ONE FUCKING SPELL, not even during fights, and with a useful result every few HOURS is a better role?
Oh, and what if — and just if — there happens to be MORE THAN ONE HUNTER? I know I know, not that likely to happen nowadays, but let’s just assume we’ve got well populated servers and more than 5% of the players are hunters. (Should be 16%, by the way) Is the second hunter redundant? You just need one player to track.

[Immune]

Not everything that’s useful for RvR is part of it. It’s nice and useful to go to the toilet before you go on a trip with your car but it’s still in no way part of driving, lol.
How is it not part of it? You are participating in the act of killing the enemies, and have an effect on the larger fight as a result. RvR is the concept of teams working together; just because you are not with your zerg doesn't mean you can't help them win a fight.


Stalker: Yay, one action every 5 minutes.
Pressure via pet: Not only does it die fast, the pressure of a marksman is superior.
The concept behind stalker is perfectly valid. The accessibility is all that needs work.
Skin of the beast works too.



It is suicidal. The time to get there when there’s actually a rush is better used otherwise, even for a hunter. Even if you’d manage to CC someone. Run 20 seconds to disable one enemy for 7 seconds, of course, great tactic.
You go -before- there's a rush. If there happens to be a rush when you get there, great. If not, give your group an opportunity to rush. And it's your own fault if you only have 1 CC.


You are right. A class with no role can do everything, hunters are actually pretty balanced there, they suck similarly at everything. But: Other classes can work outside their intended fields, too. They might receive odd looks because they’d be better off doing something else, but it works. And for sure not worse than for hunters.
They only suck when you try to play like a marks- which a lot do for some reason. I wouldn't list these tactics if I didn't use them successfully myself. If they don't work for you, well... not sure what else to tell you.

If you have 2+ hunters... camo tactics can be potentially even more dangerous. Also not all hunters have the same level tracking. Also more frequent stalker rushes.

[Seher]

How is it not part of it? You are participating in the act of killing the enemies, and have an effect on the larger fight as a result. RvR is the concept of teams working together; just because you are not with your zerg doesn't mean you can't help them win a fight.

As I’ve said, you help, but it’s not part of the actual fight. If you want to, you can call it part of RvR, but it isn’t, especially game play wise, and that’s what matters. Huge RvR battles are the only thing making Regnum unique, it doesn’t make sense to have a class not able to participate.

The concept behind stalker is perfectly valid. The accessibility is all that needs work.

True. I still can’t see a whole support class focusing on that, though, you can’t bring those spells on a heal ally like level.

Skin of the beast works too.

It does, but it still won’t live that long in the enemy army. And even if it did live forever, marksman damage is still way superior, especially when you consider knocks which you can’t protect your pet against.

You go -before- there's a rush. If there happens to be a rush when you get there, great. If not, give your group an opportunity to rush. And it's your own fault if you only have 1 CC.

Maybe I’ve been playing a different game for the past 4 years, but that’s not exactly how it works. ;P Going there before a rush is nice if it works. Depends highly on your team mates and can often give you quite the headache. All in all it’s not worth the hassle, especially when you miss important buffs like onslaught (the only time when hunters deal damage). The CCs can be cast some seconds later — that doesn’t do any harm, it might even be better to spike the CCs.
Giving your group an opportunity to rush? The last time that worked was… When did NGD remove old sotw again?
And it’s certainly not your fault that you can only cast one CC until you’re dead.

They only suck when you try to play like a marks- which a lot do for some reason. I wouldn't list these tactics if I didn't use them successfully myself.

I’m just saying that other classes can always do the same if not better, the only things other classes can’t do are camo (utterly useless 99% of the time) and tracking (almost always useless, boring as fuck if supposed to be the primary role).

[Archefiend]

Thx for your opinions, but please, no arguing. There are other threads for that.
Immune are ya syrtis? If so, contact me in game please.
As for stalker surroundings skill(I always take this skill with camo)- I cant convince anybody to use it whit me, any advice with that?
Camo-> Confuse trips I have tried out already, If theres more than 1 conj outside, it have no effect at all. DS isn't zerg spell. And for those, who are asking why most hunters sit on fort walls- most of us think that going outside is suicide.
Ps. These days marxes sit behind conjus, I find it hard to cast more than 1 spell and escape.

[71175]

Role of hunter: not initiating fight he will surely lose without any profit xD
Addresed personally to topic starter :)

[Archefiend]

Role of hunter: not initiating fight he will surely lose without any profit xD
Addresed personally to topic starter :)
Hah :P There's some thruth in it :D

[Immune]

Role of hunter: not initiating fight he will surely lose without any profit xD
Addresed personally to topic starter :)

Pfft. I get lots of profit from initiating fights...

Thx for your opinions, but please, no arguing. There are other threads for that.
Immune are ya syrtis? If so, contact me in game please.
As for stalker surroundings skill(I always take this skill with camo)- I cant convince anybody to use it whit me, any advice with that?
Camo-> Confuse trips I have tried out already, If theres more than 1 conj outside, it have no effect at all. DS isn't zerg spell. And for those, who are asking why most hunters sit on fort walls- most of us think that going outside is suicide.
Ps. These days marxes sit behind conjus, I find it hard to cast more than 1 spell and escape.

I rarely play Horus anymore; I am Alsius on this server. As for getting people to stalker... well, even though I advocate it's use, I haven't carried it recently because of the issue you're describing. No one cooperates.
If the group you are attacking has multiple conjus, try confusing one and stun the other (hoping they don't have DI up). If that's not viable, wait until an opportunity comes where you can do some damage (Ie, one of them gets separated somehow, they start rushing, or your group rushes).
It's not -always- possible to do something productive I admit. Sometimes you just have to wait until you can work with the circumstances.

[makarios68]

I read this thread and remembered another thread i started some time ago, which some hunter players told me they found useful.

I realise that some of the things in it are out dated (like rep shot no longer does 1000 dmg, for eg), but i still think there are some useful points here.

( i didn't know how to link the thread, so i just copied and pasted it - clumsy i know) :)

(Fekin noob i am, i forgot to paste, hence the edit):

I'm posting this thread because lately i've heard a lot of people saying that hunters need to be given more of an RvR role. This is puzzling to me, because as far as i'm concerned, they already have plenty of potential RvR roles - it's just that most hunters choose not to play this way, and instead prefer the easier option of ganking lvlers.

Hunters can be particularly effective at RvR when in a small and co-ordinated group. This is not just argument - myself and Comp and a couple of others regularly used to put these methods into practice.

Examples of how hunters can be useful in RVR:

1. When your fort is taken, lie in wait at the bridge for reinforcements. With the element of surprise, 3 or 4 hunters can wipe 6 or 7 enemies at once. That's 6 or 7 less enemies for your allies to deal with at the fort. Cast stalker surroundings, rinse and repeat.

2. Even at the fort, hunters can be effective. With 2 or 3 hunters working together, key targets can be taken out. Identify the target (usually a conj), confuse, kill, escape - rinse and repeat.

3. Rep shot = 1000 dmg to all in range. Why don't more hunter packs work together in using this amazing skill?

4. Even solo hunters can play a useful role for their team in large scale fights. And its all about timing. At fort fights i usually see hunters standing out in the open fighting toe-to-toe with the enemy. I think this is a waste of their potential. Use camo at forts! Choose your moment well. If your team gets pushed back by the enemy, there's always one of them that pushes out too far. Be in the right place and time to ambush him as your side starts to push back. A hunter is also the best class to finish off that retreating enemy on low health but out of reach of the ranged classes. Appear out of nowhere and finish him off, just as he thinks he has escaped.

5. IMO the most important RvR role for a hunter (or small group of hunters) is to kill enemy hunters in your land. I hear people complain that hunters can't be caught. Of course they can! - by other hunters! If your land is full of enemy hunters ganking lvlers, it's probably because all your own hunters are in their land killing their lvlers. IMO the ganking of lvlers is made too easy for hunters because too few friendly hunters take on the anti-hunter role.


In summary, i don't think there is a lack of RvR roles for hunters, just a lack of desire on the part of many hunters to help their realm. Unfortunately, many hunters prefer the more selfish and much easier option of killing (often defensless) lvlers.

[_Kharbon_]

...

Interesting tips, I agree with the fact that hunters can be deadly, if coordinated well. The problem is, that the current hunters don't always have the neccecary experience, setup or equipment, not talking about how rare they are today...

Also, while fort-groups have usualy decent coordination and numbers, hunters try to fight solo, and they often don't work together. This is a shame, as they could take out conjurers effectively, the element of surprise is underrated.

With the current gamestate, a lone warrior or marksman has higher chance of taking out a conjurer than a hunter, I'd say...

[Archefiend]

Interesting tips, I agree with the fact that hunters can be deadly, if coordinated well. The problem is, that the current hunters don't always have the neccecary experience, setup or equipment, not talking about how rare they are today...

Also, while fort-groups have usualy decent coordination and numbers, hunters try to fight solo, and they often don't work together. This is a shame, as they could take out conjurers effectively, the element of surprise is underrated.

With the current gamestate, a lone warrior or marksman has higher chance of taking out a conjurer than a hunter, I'd say...
Makarious, nice tips, I actualy have tried rep shot thing, but find it that parabolic shots are better now in this. And its not near the 1000dmg anymore...
I actualy felt sad, when today, I was the only hunter for two hours. In syrtis, the country of legolases. Increadible. Others actualy laughed at me, when I called for other hunters, to execute some plans..to find out theres no hunters at all. I tried bridge guarding, but noone was willing to come with me(except some poor warlock).
Now, I think that problem isn't only in hunters, but in the lack of cooperation too.

[Zas_]

Interesting tips, I agree with the fact that hunters can be deadly, if coordinated well. The problem is, that the current hunters don't always have the neccecary experience, setup or equipment, not talking about how rare they are today...

Also, while fort-groups have usualy decent coordination and numbers, hunters try to fight solo, and they often don't work together. This is a shame, as they could take out conjurers effectively, the element of surprise is underrated.

With the current gamestate, a lone warrior or marksman has higher chance of taking out a conjurer than a hunter, I'd say...

The fact hunters don't work together is mostly due to the fact they don't see each other while in camo.

Next update will allow to see party members on minimap, perhaps it will improve things a bit.

The best thing would be Camouflage effect worked like Stalker Surroundings, allowing all allies to see the camoed hunter.

[kmdk]

Not everything that’s useful for RvR is part of it. It’s nice and useful to go to the toilet before you go on a trip with your car but it’s still in no way part of driving, lol.



Stalker: Yay, one action every 5 minutes.
Pressure via pet: Not only does it die fast, the pressure of a marksman is superior.



It is suicidal. The time to get there when there’s actually a rush is better used otherwise, even for a hunter. Even if you’d manage to CC someone. Run 20 seconds to disable one enemy for 7 seconds, of course, great tactic.



You are right. A class with no role can do everything, hunters are actually pretty balanced there, they suck similarly at everything. But: Other classes can work outside their intended fields, too. They might receive odd looks because they’d be better off doing something else, but it works. And for sure not worse than for hunters.



Imagine you’ve got a character that can only cast warmaster beacons, and maybe teleports. That would save waaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyy more lives. Is it fun to play? No? But still more fun than being a tracking slave.
Not to mention that you clearly missed that thing called reality. When was the last time a tracking info you’ve read was actually useful? How often do you need tracking info, and do you need it during a fight? (Hunter — the class that’s not supposed to participate in fights, yay!) I’m already saying that casting one thing every minute isn’t enough to give a class a role (booooring!!), and you basically say that casting ONE FUCKING SPELL, not even during fights, and with a useful result every few HOURS is a better role?
Oh, and what if — and just if — there happens to be MORE THAN ONE HUNTER? I know I know, not that likely to happen nowadays, but let’s just assume we’ve got well populated servers and more than 5% of the players are hunters. (Should be 16%, by the way) Is the second hunter redundant? You just need one player to track.

Seems you have a havy issue with play your own class.After 1,5 years play of barbarian and 1,5 years playng as marksman i made a hunter.
Yes right now when people complaint about poor role of hunters.
What kind of class are hunters?...oh damn dude are funny ever.

Traking ofer you lots of avantage to know when ,were and in what condition to kill your enemy.

You can play hunter in many ways having fun.Pet-less hunter that help ppl to clear area of grind ,camo and recap forts when ppl not pay attention.
Stalker ppl inside fort,behind enemys,inside realms ..etc.
Also you can play hunter with pet using skin beast and ds +bestial wrats.

I see no issue with they,i have no idea why you compare a hunter with a marks,they are a different think,fight in different way.
The only think that i see is that hunters try to tank as a marksman.
No dude that is wrong,hunter fight dirty and triky,tracks his enemy and suprise his enemy.
Cold blod confere you lots of dmg,even pet with ds and ss will deal also lots of dmg.
The only think that ppl need to understand is that they need to stop to think they are marksman ,play the rolle of hunter ..and hunt.

[Seher]

I see no issue with they,i have no idea why you compare a hunter with a marks,they are a different think,fight in different way.

Barbarians and marksmen fight quite differently, too. As long as they’re both classes in the same game, I’m going to compare them. Because all classes should be able to fight similarly good. What you say is that you’re Ok with hunters not being able to fight directly or fight at all (“were and in what condition to kill your enemy”—lol THAT’S funny! Easy to say if you’re usually playing other classes that can fight. Gameplay wise this is the biggest bullshit to happen to hunters), that’s fine, you just seem to like stealth. But trust me when I say it loses its magic once you play that class a bit longer, and that a class you’re playing with your main or even only char, not just when you’re bored by other classes, needs a bit more.
That there isn’t enough to differ a properly playable hunter from marksmen then, is a design flaw.

Feel free to head to this thread (http://regnumonlinegame.com/forum/showthread.php?t=76831) and answer there.

[Nils_Dacke]

Tracking, formally named 'enemy surveillance', isn't really tracking, but a radar. (Tracking would be following tracks on the ground.)

The radar has been rendered rather useless by the introduction of WM teleports. The inteligence value of a hunter saying 'no tracks for 500 meters' crumbles to a nothing when whole armies can be airlifted in instantly at any time without warning.

Maybe the WM teles should be modified so that a glowing ball appears at the receiving end too, and that this ball would show up on the radar as well. And also add a 30 or 60 seconds delay from the cast of the tele until it can be used, and then perhaps enemy surveillance could be useful again.

Or replace the wm tele with the summoning of a big transport dragon, which flies fast but isn't invisible to the enemies on the ground, so they can see it coming in. Let the pilot land it anywhere, just have some controlled airspace over realm walls, forts etc with AA missiles so noone tries anything funny with them.