Quote:
Originally Posted by Envy
As a knight that doesn't use Vanguard, you can understand my disagreement with the amount you want in that discipline  |
Don't you worry, at lvl 60 you can. The point of my argumentation is not making them Vanguard spells but making them Knight only abilities, I didn't suggest a move to Shields because that tree is ok imho.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Envy
If you get in melee range of a target as a knight and play all your cards right you should kill them. However, if you make one mistake or they land a long cc they can choose to just flee, and will do so successfully.
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If your ranged opponent plays his cards right, you never get into melee range unless lady luck shines upon you. My point wasn't what can a knight do at melee (the answer is, the same as a barb but softer), but the difficulties he has on getting there (zerg rushes aside and door fights), because the point of the thread was discussing spring (and that's what spring used to give us, an option to get into melee).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabburtjuh
I don't agree
Knight/Barb: A knight has the advantage, most barbs don't have def support, so that's a +for the knight, and PB+AO1 can help outlast UM+fulm, after that kick+feint(which I guess all knights have) and then PB will be cooled down again, ofc there are variations possible, but these spells are the backbone in a fight vs a barb for me
Knight/Mage: Warjurer is hard, mana burn and other stealers, loads of cc and maybe a summon, also quite good def, warju has advantage
Lock, kinda hard, esp with loads of mana stealers/burn, running after him with def stance and maybe def support will probably make you last till he makes a mistake though, fight is completly decided by player skills and resists.
Knight/Archer: Hunter, kinda easy petless, hugging a tree or something will atleast get you a draw, running after a skilled hunter is useless, knights should just not die to a petless hunter if not caught offguard with confuse etc, there are to many ways to keep yourself alive vs a hunter
Marks, depends, a skilled one probably won't lose, just putting def stance up and running after him(maybe other def spells to, caution, defl barrier), you should last till he makes a mistake unless he is skilled for high tricks or has very good gear.
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I'm sorry, what are you trying to prove? Because whatever it is you are doing it wrong:
a) Assume all things equal between the opponents: lvl, skill, gear, isp.
b) Assume an open field encounter, specially on the hunter case. Hunters decide who and when, if you assume that the hunter is rational he'll choose to strike in open field.
c) Assume your opponent is rational and maximizes his class efficiency to beat yours (because that's what you are commenting on, 1 Vs 1 against a knight). After that you can observe if the common builds do or do not have the skills that get you killed.
d) Be honest, specially with yourself.
Having said this I think it's outrageous that you affirm that a knight has an advantage against a barb.
1. A knight offensive skills are ALL shared with a barb, except one, shield bash.
2. A barb has, potentially, more CC resistances then a knight (UM + def sup).
3. A barb has all the CCs that a knight has, and on top of that, he has 2 ranged CCs, the highest dmg/knock and the highest dmg/dizzy.
4. A barb has more speed then a knight (spring 2 equals intimidation 5), this is specially important because allows him to control the melee engagement.
5. The ratio between the avg dmg dealt and opponent's HP is more or less 1/5 for a barb, for a knight against a barb is around 1/10, if not more.
With all honesty, do you think that a barb determined to beat a knight 1 Vs 1 won't have more and better tools for it then the other way around? The experience you collect on WZ only tells one thing, barbs can skill for different setups that fit player's needs and/or enjoyability, some of them are just not that efficient against knights (or they don't know how to use them).
Still, the point of this thread was spring, and I do miss what spring gave me, a tool to close into melee.