Balance changes.

Dupa_z_Zasady · 04-15-2010, 08:18 AM

Since character update has come, NGD will have more time to care about balance issues. I'd like to know your opinion about how those changes would be introduced.
There are three options:

"Nuke changes" - think what changes should be introduced and then make changes all at once.
Slow step changes - make small adjustments (like small changes to CD or mana consumption) but do it more frequently.
Balanced changes - change greatly one, two spells that obviously need change and make small adjustments to other spells.

Of course every set of changes require review after some time, bigger changes need more time to be reviewed.
So, what do you think? Maybe you see some other way?

ncvr · 04-15-2010, 08:57 AM

I would prefer nuke changes - while some infamous updates were nuke changes, nuke changes make balance issues clearer rather than time passing by and people forgetting things. Also, it makes it easier to pinpoint where mistakes were made if you just have one changelog over 5 smaller ones.

Revolverxxx · 04-15-2010, 09:10 AM

if possible, could NGD make a proposition for the changes here on the forums (and the other languaged forums) so that its open for discussion before they are actually implemented. im aware that most of the community is not active on the forums and alot of the active forumers are not active on the game but some player input/critizism might be valuable

btw i vote nuke, even if it takes longer to happen

bois · 04-15-2010, 01:03 PM

I went with small step changes. A 'nuke' change may or may not have the desired effects most players are looking for. It may very well end up that a massive overhaul may send things that are a little bit off much further off in a game breaking way. Likewise, stuff that are balanced and working well may end up over or underpowered.

I say, take everything that is working well off the table for adjustments in the first round.
Tweak all the poorly working spells a little bit in a step by step fashion.
Look at the useless spells with an eye to either retirement, retooling, or larger adjustments in several facets of those spells.

I would only say go for larger type adjustments if say, NGD was going for a major thing like adding a fatigue (running) bar along with HP and Mana. Such a big thing would really require a massive retooling and as such warrant nuke changes.
(Yes, I thought about this as a way to retire some speed boosts. Shelved it though. )

NGD has never suggested that they might go in such a direction and even dual wielding implementation is an unknown factor so I say small tweaks for now.

Artec

WhateverUSMC · 04-15-2010, 01:50 PM

I voted 'Let NGD bother', since I have no idea how long it takes to do this type of work.

Vroek · 04-15-2010, 02:24 PM

I think NGD have to focus really hard to actually make things better, i dont think it will make much good if they just start reworking spells and then decide to make changes to movement speed or some other basic game mechanics in the next update.

1. Game play issues and function
Obvious this has to be as good as humanly possible or it rather pointless to make any long term balance changes.
For example a basic functions like GCD and how it work in conjunction with 'Auto hit system'.

2. Item balance + gems
Time for NGD to decide weather they want to keep all these stackable DPS items, that breaks balance in many ways.

I think it would be a good start to adjust all kinds of items and their bonuses.
It is unclear if some bonuses are caped, if they are or will be it should be made public.
I also think some damage bonuses should reflect the actual weapon (+arrow) stats, to keep the original strength of classes and their weapons.
NGD have now added quest items, weapon bonuses, boss items, magical and epic weapons and then gems.
All directly increasing DPS without considering the actual strength of the weapon and the class?

I think some kind cap for all these bonuses.
You can still item whore all you want, just not at to the point that balance is compromised.

3. Hopefully NGD now have the ground rules set.
No class make freakish damage in proportion to what they once were designed to do, now the development of new, fixes and balancing old spells can start.

Pimousse · 04-15-2010, 02:29 PM

I voted "let NGD bother", but i think the first things to do are :

~~ Eliminate phantom swing and better combat system (resist evades ...) ~~

Thoses things affect balance and i hope NGD will focus is work on that, before balancing something ...

Bladnoch · 04-15-2010, 02:33 PM

It's been a while, so I'm desperate enough for a Nuke change. Not that it's gonna help, as there won't be good time to test it bit by bit (and complain about the nerfs)

_Enio_ · 04-15-2010, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vroek

I think NGD have to focus really hard to actually make things better, i dont think it will make much good if they just start reworking spells and then decide to make changes to movement speed or some other basic game mechanics in the next update.

1. Game play issues and function
Obvious this has to be as good as humanly possible or it rather pointless to make any long term balance changes.
For example a basic functions like GCD and how it work in conjunction with 'Auto hit system'.

2. Item balance + gems
Time for NGD to decide weather they want to keep all these stackable DPS items, that breaks balance in many ways.

I think it would be a good start to adjust all kinds of items and their bonuses.
It is unclear if some bonuses are caped, if they are or will be it should be made public.
I also think some damage bonuses should reflect the actual weapon (+arrow) stats, to keep the original strength of classes and their weapons.
NGD have now added quest items, weapon bonuses, boss items, magical and epic weapons and then gems.
All directly increasing DPS without considering the actual strength of the weapon and the class?

I think some kind cap for all these bonuses.
You can still item whore all you want, just not at to the point that balance is compromised.

3. Hopefully NGD now have the ground rules set.
No class make freakish damage in proportion to what they once were designed to do, now the development of new, fixes and balancing old spells can start.

I completely agree, and i think it should be the first thing to do since there cant be proper balancing without a base stat range for each class (min-max) which is used to develop balance changes.

Like,
add kind of caps for castspeed, atackspeed. Give equal gear/items to all realms. Maybe even add a "uniquely equippable" to rings.

Check items for usability for all classes and tone the "too good to be true" ones down, eg remove the damage bonus from Dragon amulet, make it a better version of Royal Amulet (eg. 250 hp, 100 mana) and maybe add a socket to it.

Balance for the normal equip (majority) and tone down to a reasonable value for the high end, still make it enough attractive to get better gear.

My 2c.

Minorian · 04-15-2010, 03:49 PM

I personally think the first thing that needs to be done is toning down cast speed. For example, Sultars Terror was a nice spell, good for starting charges, but the long cast speed left the lock at risk of being killed/putting the spell on cd from cancel. Then gems are implemented. People go nuts with cs stuff, I sold a +3% medium 20 lvl 38 staff the other day for 80 mags, and the most uber of mages get the biggest of the bonuses. Locks build up ridiculous amounts of cs, making even a 3s Sultar cast almost instant (I've seen it). Sultar then becomes overpowered, the first one off wins the battle.

The problem above is not that Sultar is incredibly overpowered, but that it can be cast instantly from 38.5 range (I think thats what projection does). Then people start yelling nerf here like crazy (I'm do kind of want a nerf...).

Basic things like a cap for cs need to be implemented to balance out classes. A cap on cs would nerf locks a bit, evening them out, and by locks being less powerful maybe warriors will have a chance to make a charge without dieing.
I think putting a cap on cs, I'd say 55%, would help balance out a lot.

Then hunters need a nerf to trolls, marks need...something....anything, marks just suck ass right now. Then I think we could see some balance starting to fall together.

But on topic I say nuke, because I'm really pissed at nothing happening recently.

View Poll Results: How would you see balance changes to be introduced?
"Nuke changes" - all at once	17	37.78%
Small step changes - very little at once	9	20.00%
Balanced changes - one, two big changes and few small adjustments	14	31.11%
I don't really care, let NGD guys bother	5	11.11%
Voters: 45. You may not vote on this poll

04-15-2010, 08:18 AM	#1
Dupa_z_Zasady Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Poland Posts: 489	Balance changes. Since character update has come, NGD will have more time to care about balance issues. I'd like to know your opinion about how those changes would be introduced. There are three options: "Nuke changes" - think what changes should be introduced and then make changes all at once. Slow step changes - make small adjustments (like small changes to CD or mana consumption) but do it more frequently. Balanced changes - change greatly one, two spells that obviously need change and make small adjustments to other spells. Of course every set of changes require review after some time, bigger changes need more time to be reviewed. So, what do you think? Maybe you see some other way?

04-15-2010, 09:10 AM	#3
Revolverxxx Initiate Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Probably in the bathroom Posts: 139	if possible, could NGD make a proposition for the changes here on the forums (and the other languaged forums) so that its open for discussion before they are actually implemented. im aware that most of the community is not active on the forums and alot of the active forumers are not active on the game but some player input/critizism might be valuable btw i vote nuke, even if it takes longer to happen __________________ REVOLVER -retired- "There is nothing more uncommon than common sense" -Frank Lloyd Wright

04-15-2010, 01:50 PM	#5
WhateverUSMC Initiate Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Peterborough, Ontario Posts: 189	I voted 'Let NGD bother', since I have no idea how long it takes to do this type of work. __________________ o Q o (WM), Martok (WM), Wyatt Earp (53), T'Pol (52), P'Tak (57), Rotarrin (38)

04-15-2010, 02:29 PM	#7
Pimousse Initiate Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 126	I voted "let NGD bother", but i think the first things to do are : ~~ Eliminate phantom swing and better combat system (resist evades ...) ~~ Thoses things affect balance and i hope NGD will focus is work on that, before balancing something ... __________________ Server Horus, realm Ignis Pimousse OP whinnig subclasse lvl50

04-15-2010, 08:57 AM	#2
ncvr Marquis Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 2,439	I would prefer nuke changes - while some infamous updates were nuke changes, nuke changes make balance issues clearer rather than time passing by and people forgetting things. Also, it makes it easier to pinpoint where mistakes were made if you just have one changelog over 5 smaller ones.

04-15-2010, 01:03 PM	#4
bois Count Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Trinidad and Tobago Posts: 1,194	I went with small step changes. A 'nuke' change may or may not have the desired effects most players are looking for. It may very well end up that a massive overhaul may send things that are a little bit off much further off in a game breaking way. Likewise, stuff that are balanced and working well may end up over or underpowered. I say, take everything that is working well off the table for adjustments in the first round. Tweak all the poorly working spells a little bit in a step by step fashion. Look at the useless spells with an eye to either retirement, retooling, or larger adjustments in several facets of those spells. I would only say go for larger type adjustments if say, NGD was going for a major thing like adding a fatigue (running) bar along with HP and Mana. Such a big thing would really require a massive retooling and as such warrant nuke changes. (Yes, I thought about this as a way to retire some speed boosts. Shelved it though. ) NGD has never suggested that they might go in such a direction and even dual wielding implementation is an unknown factor so I say small tweaks for now. Artec

04-15-2010, 02:24 PM	#6
Vroek Banned Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 890	I think NGD have to focus really hard to actually make things better, i dont think it will make much good if they just start reworking spells and then decide to make changes to movement speed or some other basic game mechanics in the next update. 1. Game play issues and function Obvious this has to be as good as humanly possible or it rather pointless to make any long term balance changes. For example a basic functions like GCD and how it work in conjunction with 'Auto hit system'. 2. Item balance + gems Time for NGD to decide weather they want to keep all these stackable DPS items, that breaks balance in many ways. I think it would be a good start to adjust all kinds of items and their bonuses. It is unclear if some bonuses are caped, if they are or will be it should be made public. I also think some damage bonuses should reflect the actual weapon (+arrow) stats, to keep the original strength of classes and their weapons. NGD have now added quest items, weapon bonuses, boss items, magical and epic weapons and then gems. All directly increasing DPS without considering the actual strength of the weapon and the class? I think some kind cap for all these bonuses. You can still item whore all you want, just not at to the point that balance is compromised. 3. Hopefully NGD now have the ground rules set. No class make freakish damage in proportion to what they once were designed to do, now the development of new, fixes and balancing old spells can start.

04-15-2010, 02:33 PM	#8
Bladnoch Initiate Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: England Posts: 199	It's been a while, so I'm desperate enough for a Nuke change. Not that it's gonna help, as there won't be good time to test it bit by bit (and complain about the nerfs) __________________ Ra Sytris - Starpulse Lvl 25 Horus Syrtis - Bladnoch Lvl 20 Horus Alsius - Goatus Lvl 37

04-15-2010, 03:49 PM	#10
Minorian Master Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Peterborough ON Posts: 597	I personally think the first thing that needs to be done is toning down cast speed. For example, Sultars Terror was a nice spell, good for starting charges, but the long cast speed left the lock at risk of being killed/putting the spell on cd from cancel. Then gems are implemented. People go nuts with cs stuff, I sold a +3% medium 20 lvl 38 staff the other day for 80 mags, and the most uber of mages get the biggest of the bonuses. Locks build up ridiculous amounts of cs, making even a 3s Sultar cast almost instant (I've seen it). Sultar then becomes overpowered, the first one off wins the battle. The problem above is not that Sultar is incredibly overpowered, but that it can be cast instantly from 38.5 range (I think thats what projection does). Then people start yelling nerf here like crazy (I'm do kind of want a nerf...). Basic things like a cap for cs need to be implemented to balance out classes. A cap on cs would nerf locks a bit, evening them out, and by locks being less powerful maybe warriors will have a chance to make a charge without dieing. I think putting a cap on cs, I'd say 55%, would help balance out a lot. Then hunters need a nerf to trolls, marks need...something....anything, marks just suck ass right now. Then I think we could see some balance starting to fall together. But on topic I say nuke, because I'm really pissed at nothing happening recently.