RNG update at Amun!

[schachteana]

SAVE GUARDS (all of them) -

would it really be too bad to change their behaviour so they only attack when allies around the bind are being attacked and stay passive otherwise?
The "come 60 meters near the altar and I will fucking 9000-onehit you"-mentality of the save guards is horrible.

^ the words and signature of a man who is wasted.

[Blart]

Originally Posted by schachteana

can i just ask one thing

what was wrong with regnums RNG? It used to produce real random numbers, right? and now, it was changed so the chance for resist/evade/whatever-chains is smaller? so, ngd basically manipulated the probability?
as far as i know, people weren't really having a problem with how probability works but rather with the amount of resists in general, which used to be (and still is on liveserver) about 30% for non-damaging stun spells. Lowering the resist rate in general would have been enough, I'd say, but definitely necessary nevertheless.
since this is probably solved now, I shouldn't complain anyway. there is so much to do for ngd, I hope they'll get around to everything one day.

The exact term about the complaint about the RNG is the redudancy. It means the probability that , whereas those numbers are random at long scale, they repeat themself at short scale.
This in the game made some really annoying sequences where all spells were resisted therefore completely changing the course of the fight.
So to answer your question those were not random numbers but sequential numbers. That's what was corrected.

[-Mongoose-]

Long post, but a lot of information. I've highlighted several areas where it'd be great to have someone provide data or double check my work. Many thanks if you can provide help here. Red items are things I think that NGD should definitely examine before releasing this to the live server.

Questions / Comments:
*It seems that crit damage has been lowered slighly since last week. Can NGD confirm this? Also, I'd like to see some tests from boss jeweled players. How hard are you hitting now?

*It seems that the majority of non-damaging spells have the "only blockable at 100%". Why do the following spells not have the modifier? Death Sentence, Sticky Touch, Taunt, Confuse, Darkness, Howl, Freeze, Caltrop's arrow. Can you also explain precisely what this modifier does? The spell is only blockable if the knight casts precise block?

*All single target knocks (Ambush, Will Domain, Feint) except Kick have the "only blockable at 100%" Seems a bit unfair to barbs. I guess it's based on the non-damaging condition.

*Why does War Confidence have the "only blockable at 100%" and "only resistable at 100%"? Amusing at least :P Also, can you change this to be like an aura? It's annoying when it interrupts spell casts (old bug).

*Does hit chance/spell focus still exist in code? Your initial post made it sound like hit chance was eliminated. The following spells still have hit chance / spell focus modifiers: Challenging Roar, Eagle's Eye, Resurect, Bless, Sadistic Guard, Trained Eye.

*Since this update is focusing on RNG, can we get some information about the mechanics of Miss Chance? It's very few spells, maybe even remove miss chance spells?

*A while back, I measured resist rates on the live server (in January). Two players were in the arena, level 60 Barb and level 60 Hunter. Both players stood still, no movement. Latency was steady around 200 ms for both players. I measured the following resist rates. Intimidate: (p=0.0463, 95% confidence interval=[0.0363, 0.0563], n=1685). Under these same conditions, I measured certain spells that had higher resist rates: Kick (p=0.169, 95% confidence interval=[0.138, 0.201], n=544), Deafening Roar (p=0.151, 95% confidence interval=[0.118, 0.183], n=464). Why do these spells currently have higher resist rates and will this occur on the new RNG update?

*Since we're on the topic of RNG, can you make a statement about this rumor I've heard about resists? Supposed a dev told this to a player, I've only heard it second hand, it goes as follows. When a player casts a power, the client and sever perform several checks to verify that the spell can be cast. Supposedly the number of checks is three. Supposedly if the target is not in range on the final check at the end of casting, the server defaults to a spell resist instead of canceling the spell. I'm aware that you can get a 'Out of Range' message on spell casting. My hypothesis would be that the target appears in range on the client. The server implements lag compensation, and what the caster client sees may be different from the server reality. Under this condition, where the target is in range on the client, but out of range on the server, the server defaults to a spell resist. Is there any truth to this rumor? This would potentially explain the seemingly high resists that we see in the war zone, but not under controlled tests.

Notes:
*Bug: Character sheet shows movement speed dropping to 60% at the moment the character attacks, then back up to 100%. I've only been able to replicate this on knight & barb. Hunter/Lock did not seem to have this issue. Character can be standing still or moving, it will occur in both situations. To replicate: attack a mob with a melee character. Movement speed will drop to 60% at the moment the attack hits the mob, then jump back up to 100%. This appears to only be a display issue, it doesn't feel like the character slows down. Someone can confirm on Barb/Knight?

Update: Trying to reproduce it more. Doesn't happen on every hit, there will be mobs where this never happens. Try starting in non-combat mode, then hitting control as you approach. Switch back to non-combat after you kill, seems to happen more likely. The 60% never appears if I attack with a spell.

*Block Chance is now a percentage. The value on the shield directly corresponds to block chance. I don't have a level 60 shield, but the level 58 shield has 9% block chance. Can someone post how much a level 60 shield has?

*Aventurines have been convered to Crit Chance bonuses. A +17 hit chance was converted to 3.4% crit chance. gem_crit_chance = 2*gem_hit_chance. Anyone can confirm this?


*The following jewelry is related to the RNG update:
-Ring of Twins: Spell Focus +4. Does it do anything? Nothing on the character sheet changes.
-Hypnotizing Amulet: Hit Chance +12 converted into Crit Chance +2%
-Desert Wanderer Ring: No data. Someone please post.
-Ring of Earth: No data. Someone please post.
-Ring of Spider (Syrtis only, does this still exist?): No data. Someone please post.
-Ring of Undead Touch: No data. Someone please post.

*Evade chance debuffs work as expected (tested with Crash + Destabilize). Debuffs are additive. Crash (-40%) and Destabilize (-10%) give a total of -50%.

*The attack damage seems to have stayed the same.
class_multiplier*(class_attribute - 20) + weapon_damage_bonus * (weapon_damage + jewelry_damage + buff_damage) + paren_damage
weapon_damage_bonus: buffs like berserk, overwhelming strength. additive.
paren_dmg: damage in parens at the top of the weapon.
Still haven't added in the Attack Damage buffs (Fulminating) or how weapon gems affect things. I don't think they changed anything here.

*Critical Chance, Evade Chance, Critical Damage: Working on formulas for these now. Anymore have data/formulas for them yet?

Spell Changes/Notes:
*Only Blockable at 100%: Disable Limb, Disabling, Deafening Roar, Threat, Challenging Roar*, Obfuscate, Ambush, Sudden Strike, Distracting Shot, Shield Pierce, Will Domain, Silence, Curse, Blindness, Clumsiness, Slow, Petrify Hands, Laziness, Fragility, Infuriate, Sadistic Guard, Cremate, Elemental Exposure, Finger Crush, Challenge, Feint, War Confidence* (Why do Challenging Roar / War Confidence have this modifier? They are buffs.)

*Only resistable at 100%: Sadistic Guard, Cremate, War Confidence

*Challenging Roar: Is a hit chance buff again. Wasn't it a critical damage buff a few days ago?

*Rapid Shot: -50% hit chance -> -50% crit damage

*Duelist: hit chance -> critical chance (+5% to +25% (multiplier)). This corresponds to multipliers of 1.05 to 1.25.

*Adaptability: Unchanged at +200% critical chance. Works as expected.

*Hinder: Hit Chance debuff -> Damage bonus: -2%, 4%, 6%, 8%, 10%. Only blockable at 100%

*Eagles Eye: Still is a hit chance buff

*Point Shot: Unchanged. Critical Chance +25% (percentage points) @ level 5. This seems a bit wierd, not getting the values I expect. Critical chance changes from 4.89% to 30.34%. This is a change of 25.4 percentage points. Is this expected? Is there some multiplier in the crit chance formula that I' missing? Nothing else was skilled or equipped except for the bow. Can someone confirm this oddity?

*Spell Elude: +20%, 50%, 90%, 140%, 200% spell resist

*Evasive Tactics: hit chance debuff -> damage bonus -2,3,6,7,8%

*Curse: Damage Bonus: -2%, 4%, 6%, 8%, 10%, Critical Chance: -10%, 15%, 20%, 25%, 30%. Only blockable at 100%. Same duration / cd (60 s, 20 s)

*Bless: Still the same with hit chance / spell focus?

*Protection Dome: Absolute spell resist +3%, 6%, 10%, 16%, 25%. Caster movement debuff -25% Duration 20, Cooldown 90. Those are percentage points. I.E. At level 5, your spell resist might change from 5% to 30%. It does affect the caster.

*Sadistic Guard: Unchanged. -10, -20, -30, -40, -50 spell resist. Only unblockable at 100%. Can you explain how this works? The debuff does not act as a multiplicative or subtractive debuff. A hunter buffed with Spell Elude to get 10.12% spell resist. I cast Sadistic Guard 1 (-10 spell resist) and their spell resist chance went to 0. It seems there is no need to ever take this spell above level 1.

*Focus: Has a spell focus bonus, does it do anything?

*Trained Eye: Still has hit chance bonus.

*Challenge: Spell Resist -25%, -40%, -55%, -70%, -100%. Concentration -10, -15, -20, -25, -30. Only blockable at 100%

*Taunt: No change. Why does this not have "only blockable at 100%". Also, making this castable on guards would be interesting, allowing knights to take aggro for warrior/archer guards and protecting others from damage.

*Precise Block: Duration: 4,5,6,7,9. Cooldown 45 s. Mana: 90, 110, 140, 170, 200.

*Defensive Support: Movement speed shows as 89% instead of 90%. Most likely a floating point issue, just round the result before displaying and it should be fine.

[Ludwig Von Mises]

Originally Posted by Frosk

- Challenge: Opponent Hit Chance changed to Opponent Spell Resistance -25%/-40%/-55%/-70%/-100%. Added Opponent Concentration -10%/-15%/-20%/-25%/-30% Duration changed to 5/5/10/10/15.

This spell seems to be another useless spell which knights will only use to dismount opponents or for a more nerfed and limited extent now to keep mana hp down on other knights etc.

Original challenge level 1 lasted 20 seconds and it was kind of a useless spell to use on other classes. The only use it had was to dismount and to make it harder for your opponent to regenerate mana and hp. That, right there, was the only use which has nothing to do with reduce hit chance.

Now the new update at amun with the -% spell resistance and concentration at level 1 which is only 5 seconds is just crap. Imagen chasing a mag down you cast it, it last 5 seconds and by the time you get anywhere close to the mag it wears off? Maybe the only affect it may have is to skill it at level 5 which very few knights will do and seems like a waste of skill points. Even at level 5 its 15 seconds. Imagen running after a mage they cast pricky ivy or tornado on you and by the time you run after it again your spell wears off? Pffs.. Thats what i call a useless spell and a waste of skill points.

In my opinion the best use for this spell is to make it a speed reduction spell, like level 1: -5% speed reduction, level 2: -7% speed reduction, level -9% speed reduction, level 4: -12% speed reduction, level 5 -14% speed reduction. Either that, or leave it as it was before, is my opinion.

[LawZ]

Originally Posted by -Mongoose-

Questions / Comments:
*It seems that crit damage has been lowered slighly since last week. Can NGD confirm this? Also, I'd like to see some tests from boss jeweled players. How hard are you hitting now?

Critical damage has been reverted to what it was before. Crit_DMG = (1+1/3)*Normal_DMG. I think it is also stated on the character sheet, when you hover mouse over there.

Originally Posted by -Mongoose-

*It seems that the majority of non-damaging spells have the "only blockable at 100%". Why do the following spells not have the modifier? Death Sentence, Sticky Touch, Taunt, Confuse, Darkness, Howl, Freeze. Can you also explain precisely what this does? The spell is only blockable if the knight casts precise block?

*All single target knocks (Ambush, Will Domain, Feint) except Kick have the "only blockable at 100%" Seems a bit unfair to barbs. I guess it's based on the non-damaging condition.

*Why does War Confidence have the "only blockable at 100%" and "only resistable at 100%"? Amusing at least :P Also, can you change this to be like an aura? It's annoying when it interrupts spell casts (old bug).

I have the same question. I haven't completely understood what "only blockable/resistable at 100%" etc means.

Originally Posted by -Mongoose-

*Does hit chance/spell focus still exist in code? Your initial post made it sound like hit chance was eliminated. The following spells still have hit chance / spell focus modifiers: Challenging Roar, Eagle's Eye, Resurect, Bless, Sadistic Guard, Trained Eye.

*Since this update is focusing on RNG, can we get some information about the mechanics of Miss Chance? It's very few spells, maybe even remove miss chance spells?

If I am not mistaken both HC and Spell Focus are considered 100% for all toons. And this is the reason why now we have absolute % of evasion, spell resistance, block in our character sheet.
Some spells haven't changed yet. NGD will change them as patch goes on, I guess.
Considering Miss Chance, I think it dates back to beta times. Must be caused by some part of code that still exists in the calculation routine.

Originally Posted by -Mongoose-

*Aventurines have been convered to Crit Chance bonuses. A +17 hit chance was converted to 3.4% crit chance. gem_crit_chance = 2*gem_hit_chance. Anyone can confirm this?

They used a formula like gem_crit_chance (in %) = gem_hit_chance / 5. Although it seems not being exactly applied to all HC bonus i had in my equipment.

Originally Posted by -Mongoose-

*The attack damage seems to have stayed the same.
class_multiplier*(class_attribute - 20) + weapon_damage_bonus * (weapon_damage + jewelry_damage + buff_damage) + paren_damage
weapon_damage_bonus: buffs like berserk, overwhelming strength. additive.
paren_dmg: damage in parens at the top of the weapon.
Still haven't added in the Attack Damage buffs (Fulminating) or how weapon gems affect things. I don't think they changed anything here.

This hasn't changed.

Originally Posted by -Mongoose-

*Critical Chance, Evade Chance, Critical Damage: Working on formulas for these now. Anymore have data/formulas for them yet?

I wouldn't try to get the new formulas, since we are still in dev stage. Better first wait for patch on live servers.

Originally Posted by -Mongoose-

*Point Shot: Unchanged. Critical Chance +25% (percentage points) @ level 5. This seems a bit wierd, not getting the values I expect. Critical chance changes from 4.89% to 30.34%. This is a change of 25.4 percentage points. Is this expected? Is there some multiplier in the crit chance formula that I' missing? Nothing else was skilled or equipped except for the bow. Can someone confirm this oddity?

Point Shot seems to be the only spell providing absolute critical chance. I am not sure if this is intended or not, though. I think i was getting exactly +25%. I ll check it again.

Originally Posted by -Mongoose-

*Defensive Support: Movement speed shows as 89% instead of 90%. Most likely a floating point issue, just round the result before displaying and it should be fine.

Yes, there must be a floating point issue with movement speed atm. I guess NGD will fix it, and I hope, to also translate it to "meters per second".

Best,

[Kyrenis]

Originally Posted by -Mongoose-

*Bug: Character sheet shows movement speed dropping to 60% at the moment the character attacks, then back up to 100%. Someone can confirm on Barb/Knight?

A few years ago I noticed if I was constantly using normals against a fleeing enemy, they would eventually be out of my attack range without using any movement speed buffs/debuffs.
I always thought I was just imagining it/making excuses but I guess this proves that melee normal hits do in fact slow you down.

[-Mongoose-]

Additional Information.
Please verify the following if you have time:


Spell Resist = (Int/50 + Const/50 + Level/40)*spell_resist_multiplier
spell_resist_multiplier: Protection dome, Spell Elude, Challenge. Stacks in an additive manner.
Spell focus rings do nothing.
SOTW will overwrite this formula and set spell resist = 100%.

Critical Chance = [(Conc - 30)/10 + absolute_critical_bonus] * critical_chance_multiplier
absolute_critical_bonus: Only comes from Point Shot. This seems buggy.
critical_chance_bonus: Bonus on weapons, Duelist, Adaptability, etc. Additive.
Example: Buff Adaptability5(+200%) and weapon has 1.6%. critical_chance_bonus = 1+2+0.016=3.016

This formula fits my collect data very well with less than 0.5% on all data points. The only exception is if the character has necro. Simply using the debuffed Conc value does not work. Additionally, it's odd that there is no level dependence, when the description suggests that there is such a dependence. I tested characters in the range 4-60 though, and didn't see any level dependence.

Evade Chance = [(Dex - 60)/15 + Level/25 + 2/3*item_evade_chance]*evade_multiplier
item_evade_chance: Bonuses on items / rings, etc.
evade_multiplier: dodge, cat reflexes. Additive.
Escapist will overwrite this formula and set Evade Chance = 100%.

This formula gave me the most difficulty. The other two formulas would perfectly match under most circumstances. This formula gives me error between -4% to +3% percentage points. I'm hoping this is just because the /15 is giving nasty floating point issues, but the spread seems a little too much.

Bug: There is a math/floating point error somewhere in the evade chance calculation. Conditions: Dex=90, Level=51, No buffs, No bonus crit chance on items. Evade chance is shown as 3%. With 89 dex, evade=3.93. With 92 dex, evade=4.32. My formula predicts a theoretical value of 4.04%. There is some weird truncation going on.

Other stuff:
*Crit damage: Lawz is completely right, it's just 1.33 times attack damage.

*Hit Chance -> Crit Conversion: Lawz is right again. I forgot to divide by 10...

*Evasive tactics damage debuffs works as attack_damage / (1 + damage_bonus).

*Spell focus on staves is useless now? NGD should update this to a useful stat for mages.

[Hayir]

Originally Posted by Ludwig Von Mises

This spell seems be another useless spell which knights will only use to dismount opponents or for a more nerfed and limited extent now to keep mana hp down on other knights etc.

Original challenge level 1 lasted 20 seconds and it was kind of a useless spell to use on other classes. The only use it had was to dismount and to make it harder for your opponent to regenerate mana and hp. That right there was the only use which has nothing to do with reduce hit chance.

Now the new update at amun with the -% spell resistance and concentration at level 1 which is only 5 seconds is just crap. Imagen chasing a mag down you cast it, it last 5 seconds and by the time you get anywhere close to the mag it wears off? Maybe the only affect it may have is to skill it at level 5 which very few knights will do and seems like a waste of skill points. Even at level 5 its 15 seconds. Imagen running after a mage they cast pricky ivy or tornado on you and by the time you run after it again your spell wears off? Pffs.. Thats what i call a useless spell and a waste of skill points.

In my opinion the best use for this spell is to make it a speed reduction spell, like level 1: -5% speed reduction, level 2: -7% speed reduction, level -9% speed reduction, level 4: -12% speed reduction, level 5 -14% speed reduction. Either that, or leave it as it was before, is my opinion.

I haven't tested this, just a theory:

The new challenge might counter Sotw if casted before.
I don't know though how the calculation works since i haven't tested it, if the absolute value from sotw "overwrites" challenges debuff.

[-Mongoose-]

Originally Posted by Hayir

I haven't tested this, just a theory:

The new challenge might counter Sotw if casted before.
I don't know though how the calculation works since i haven't tested it, if the absolute value from sotw "overwrites" challenges debuff.

Good idea to test! The absolute spell resist from SOTW, does in fact overwrite the -100% from challenge.

Challenge(5)
Sotw(5)
Intimidate -> Resisted.
Intimidate -> Resisted.

Spell Resist drops to 0% after the challenge, and goes up to 100% when SOTW is cast.

I tested a similar scenario with Spell Elude(5) [+200% Spell Resist]. These buffs stack in an additive manner. Thus Challenge5 + Spell Elude5 results in a +100% multiplier. The archer will have 2x of their base spell resist. The casting sequence of spells does not affect the final spell resist.

[LawZ]

Originally Posted by -Mongoose-

Good idea to test! The absolute spell resist from SOTW, does in fact overwrite the -100% from challenge.

Challenge(5)
Sotw(5)
Intimidate -> Resisted.
Intimidate -> Resisted.

Spell Resist drops to 0% after the challenge, and goes up to 100% when SOTW is cast.

I tested a similar scenario with Spell Elude(5) [+200% Spell Resist]. These buffs stack in an additive manner. Thus Challenge5 + Spell Elude5 results in a +100% multiplier. The archer will have 2x of their base spell resist. The casting sequence of spells does not affect the final spell resist.

That was always like that. Defensive absolute spells have priority over the Offensive ones.