Creepy O.o

[ArcticWolf]

Originally Posted by Hell_bound

I find it ironic, that out of all the philosophers, you would pick Descartes...

You realize that Descartes would sit in an old boiler for hours (sometimes 16 hours at a crack), where it was pitch black and being so thick it was soundless, so as to devoid himself of all sensory input?

The same man, who being void of all sensory input, believed that because he thinks therefor he is...

Doesn't that seem like an odd way to arrive at truth Xeph?

Indeed it is, but you should take into account that the only "truth" he could find was that "when you think, you exist". That's just a step in order to find what we think it's the real truth. The 'cogito ergo sum' is the only thing he couldn't deny, the only thing he was sure about.

But as LoneSword (a user from the Spanish forum) said, if you don't doubt then you stop searching. He found just a piece, then he realized that life is like a 3D puzzle where all the pieces look the same, but don't fit.

Originally Posted by Hell_bound

Descartes assumed that man could escape from his surroundings by walking into a black hole, and while there all doubt would be erased...

And you state that this method allows man to arrive at real truth?

Surely you jest Xeph!

It's just a way to get closer at a real truth, but it has a dead end since it doesn't take into account the rest of the world. His method would only give him a firm, solid ground where he could start searching for truth. He should have considered that even when he was inside the boiler his senses distorted his "accurate" observations.

Originally Posted by Hell_bound

Truth is, Descartes feared what talks, screams to him from the inside - as he moved about in this world!

However, the most ironic part of all this, Xeph, is that you picked Descartes as proof of man's highest intellect, yet the man that you picked not only tried to kill his intuition (sitting in a boiler indeed) but failed in the process of killing it; for doubt (aka intuition) led Descartes to believe he truly existed...

I won't start talking about Shördinger's paradox and other strange things (both of them are connected to reality states) because, even both of them being interesting topics, there's no reason to drift away from the topic (Descartes).

Originally Posted by Hell_bound

Now knowing this, what should we say about his genius in mathematics?

He is like all men, men that cling onto this fallacious idea that man can solve the deepest mysteries through reason alone, but having already tainted his method by which he uses to arrive at truth (for he placed the mind of man at the center of the universe) he can only push the veil back so much...

Truth is he only manipulates the veil without moving it!

The problem is that Mathematic Science is purely objective and exact. There's no place for doubts or feelings in the middle, and the "world" of math is totally abstract, a field that resides in Mind. There are even numbers that don't exist in reality (the Complex set), but that play an important role. It's a weird concept, because the only "dogmatic" start that math has states that "everything can be arranged in sets".

Even if he was wrong about the truth we live in, the mathematic truths he could find are fine. There's a saying that goes something like this: "if you want to invent a new concept in maths, it will be ok if it doesn't contradict any other previous theory".

The only problem with this would be in Physics, since math becomes a tool and not the goal. He was a physicist too, so maybe his observations aren't quite accurate in this field.

Originally Posted by Hell_bound

For all his genius he helped man do more harm with technology, science, math then good...

Technology, science and math don't harm people, it's how people use them. You will find unscrupulous people everywhere, unfortunately.

Originally Posted by Hell_bound

Why?

Because he led man to believe he needs not intuition nor a reliance on his senses!

Truth is man needs both objective and subjective reality to arrive at truth...

For example, pain is a rather subjective sensation, for some can take more pain then others, some can take less pain of a certain kind then others. Yet if I put a fire under your ass, will you not move?

The point is: Man needs his senses, which breeds intuition...

I agree with you at this. We should have a holistic point of view, and that includes feelings. You can see that an object has more than two sides by looking it at different angles, and the same happens with reality :P

Originally Posted by Hell_bound

This imagery was an assault on my senses that could only leave me in a state of awe (perhaps some it would have been fear)... and then my intuition starts to kick in...

As far as I know, the intuition part wasn't planned... It's more like the author did it just to introduce the first topic (religion), but it's one of the most interesting points in the movie.

Originally Posted by Hell_bound

As to the section of religion, well if you had studied occult literature Xeph you would realize that many have made similar parallels with the christian religion and others...

I've read some books about occult literature, but since I went to a catholic school those topics were banned and teachers used to look upon us as wicked and weird kids. I have a very good knowledge about the "official" story, but very little knowledge about the banned books (though, I've always wanted to learn more about them).

Originally Posted by Hell_bound

And the association with astrology... again its there in occult literature... though not as plain as what this movie shows...

The movie tries to reach the masses, it's not an exact study on society or history. I'd love to see something more technical or profound on those topics, but that wouldn't be attractive to the masses (you know that people love morbid and polemical topics, not objective studies on society, unluckily).

Originally Posted by Hell_bound

However, about the idea that christ did not exist...

Well it's true that there has been no hardcore proof that christ existed, however, archaeologists did find evidence that Pontius Pilate did exist...

In my opinion, the person we call Jesus did exist. He was not one, but many people. The combination between christ as an ideal person and real stories about remarkable things that many people did is the perfect mix to write a book that can keep the masses under control and teach them ethics, law and obedience.

Originally Posted by Hell_bound

As to the section on 9/11...

You might want to take a look at this documentary, The Power of Nightmares. It's in three parts:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...IZSw4QKQzJC-BQ

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...IZSw4QKQzJC-BQ

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...IZSw4QKQzJC-BQ

I haven't seen it yet, I'll watch it later.

Originally Posted by Hell_bound

As to the section on the economy, look to this to understand the history of American economy and the plight that America now sees itself in and the options America has:

http://news.goldseek.com/GoldSeek/1137510262.php

Edit: It should be noted that this Bourse went through last year, I believe February '07

In school we had some American history (I know it sounds weird), I'll read it later and then I'll compare it with my notes.

Originally Posted by Hell_bound

However, if you manage to get through all that I want to leave you with this one thought...

Man can be scientific, for man has created many scientific fields and man has also benefited from them all at one point or another...

Yet when man only relies on hardcore data and does not look inward, nor question what he does...

There is only one reality that man will face...

And that is war!

[Hell_bound]

Before I say anything Xephandor I would like to say that your English writing skills, how you express yourself in written English, in this post is very clear, precise and impeccable...

Also thank you for taking the time to respond to my post...

Now as to the topic at hand...

Originally Posted by Xephandor

Indeed it is, but you should take into account that the only "truth" he could find was that "when you think, you exist"...

The main problem that I have with Descartes simple "truth" about existence is that its just that - simple. And because of this I'm no closer to understanding truth. Thus, given the simplicity of Descartes "cogito ergo sum" I can arrive at the truth of my existence in a sequence of thoughts that occur when I sleep just as much as when I think when I'm awake.

The problem with this, however, is there are many nights that I sleep where there is no sequence of thoughts that occur, and so on those nights do I stop existing?

Similarly, if I go mad, to the point that all my thoughts are fragmented and make no sense (to myself or anyone else), do I cease to exist?

And finally, what if I happen to be in a coma? Do I exist no more?

The problem with this, as I hinted to in my post before, is that Descartes puts the individual mind (the thing that thinks, and thus knows it exists) at the center of existence and truth. And the three examples, I gave, shows the foolishness and the errors that will result in doing such a thing. Because in all three cases I still exist, even though I perceive it not!

Originally Posted by Xephandor

... The problem is that Mathematic Science is purely objective and exact...

This is actually an interesting statement because not to long ago I was involved in in a discussion with a group of people that were convinced, like you, that math was always exact and objective.

The group of people told me to give an example of a time that 1+1 !=2...

I had a little help and it was found that, using the rules of calculus (and trust me I'm not good at math so I had to take these people's word for it), when you place x=2->infinity in the equation lim (x->infinity)SUM(x/(x-1)) the sum becomes -(1/2+1/3+1/4...) which slowly diverges to -infinity. And thus, these people concluded that this was a case of 1+1 !=2. Again don't ask me how they arrived at this, for math is to my strongest subject...

However, my main argument for math not being purely objective and exact was (as I'm sure you know what my argument will be) that math stems from the logic of an imperfect being and thus what we understand to be true today might change in the future.

This is what led us to discuss the idea 1+1 !=2. Because if this could be proven then its probable that what we believe as the science of math to be always true exact is false.

Originally Posted by Xephandor

... "if you want to invent a new concept in maths, it will be ok if it doesn't contradict any other previous theory"...

Math does contradict itself, for example, one infinity added to another one infinity does not equal two infinities... Yes, another case where 1+1 !=2.

Originally Posted by Xephandor

... We should have a holistic point of view...

In my opinion a holistic point of view is the only view that man should strive for... All the data from all the branches of science should merge and each branch should help the other in tackling and solving the problems that face humanity. Why we have been slow in doing this is beyond me!

Originally Posted by Xephandor

... I've read some books about occult literature, but since I went to a catholic school those topics were banned and teachers used to look upon us as wicked and weird kids. I have a very good knowledge about the "official" story, but very little knowledge about the banned books (though, I've always wanted to learn more about them)...

You know there are is a ton of places, on the Internet, where you can find such "banned books". For example: http://www.esotericarchives.com/

That site has most of the "classical" books on the subject, some dating as far back as the 1400s. Thus, the books there wont give the "modern" way that magick is done, however, it will give you the foundations of those "modern" systems.

I'm getting sleepy now, but one thing before I leave...

You must watch the Power of Nightmares and read that article, I demand it!

Well I don't demand it, but your mind would be blown away from what is revealed in them and how much they have gotten right...

[Pizdzius]

I think the animation in that movie is really professional and beautiful ^^

[Static_Fang]

That kinda reminded me of claymation...

[Pizdzius]

Originally Posted by Static_Fang

That kinda reminded me of claymation...

well gee, brilliant one.

[-Net-]

Originally Posted by aardvak2669

I think the animation in that movie is really professional and beautiful ^^

I know is really professional and beautiful, but still being creepy.

Sorry for my english =D

[ArcticWolf]

http://reader.homestead.com/mysterious.html

The Mysterious Stranger




Mark Twain


For as much as a year Satan continued these visits, but at last he came less often, and then for a long time he did not come at all. This always made me lonely and melancholy. I felt that he was losing interest in our tiny world and might at any time abandon his visits entirely. When one day he finally came to me I was overjoyed, but only for a little while. He had come to say good-by, he told me, and for the last time. He had investigations and undertakings in other corners of the universe, he said, that would keep him busy for a longer period than I could wait for his return.


"And you are going away, and will not come back any more?"


"Yes," he said. "We have comraded long together, and it has been pleasant -- pleasant for both; but I must go now, and we shall not see each other any more."


"In this life, Satan, but in another? We shall meet in another, surely?"


Then, all tranquilly and soberly, he made the strange answer, "There is no other."

A subtle influence blew upon my spirit from his, bringing with it a vague, dim, but blessed and hopeful feeling that the incredible words might be true -- even must be true.


"Have you never suspected this, Theodor?"


"No. How could I? But if it can only be true -- "


"It is true."


A gust of thankfulness rose in my breast, but a doubt checked it before it could issue in words, and I said, "But -- but -- we have seen that future life seen it in its actuality, and so -- "

"It was a vision it had no existence."


I could hardly breathe for the great hope that was struggling in me. "A vision? -- a vi -- "


"Life itself is only a vision, a dream."


It was electrical. By God! I had had that very thought a thousand times in my musings!


"Nothing exists; all is a dream. God man the world the sun, the moon, the wilderness of stars -- a dream, all a dream; they have no existence. Nothing exists save empty space -- and you!"

"I!"


"And you are not you you have no body, no blood, no bones, you are but a thought. I myself have no existence; I am but a dream -- your dream, creature of your imagination. In a moment you will have realised this, then you will banish me from your visions and I shall dissolve into the nothingness out of which you made me....


"I am perishing already I am failing I am passing away. In a little while you will be alone in shoreless space, to wander its limitless solitudes without friend or comrade forever -- for you will remain a thought, the only existent thought, and by your nature inextinguishable, indestructible. But I, your poor servant, have revealed you to yourself and set you free. Dream other dreams, and better!


"Strange! that you should not have suspected years ago centuries, ages, eons, ago! -- for you have existed, companionless, through all the eternities. Strange, indeed, that you should not have suspected that your universe and its contents were only dreams, visions, fiction! Strange, because they are so frankly and hysterically insane -- like all dreams: a God who could make good children as easily as bad, yet preferred to make bad ones; who could have made every one of them happy, yet never made a single happy one; who made them prize their bitter life, yet stingily cut it short; who gave his angels eternal happiness unearned, yet required his other children to earn it; who gave his angels painless lives, yet cursed his other children with biting miseries and maladies of mind and body; who mouths justice and invented hell -- mouths mercy and invented hell -- mouths Golden Rules, and forgiveness multiplied by seventy times seven, and invented hell; who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, then tries to shuffle the responsibility for man's acts upon man, instead of honorably placing it where it belongs, upon himself; and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him!...


"You perceive, now, that these things are all impossible except in a dream. You perceive that they are pure and puerile insanities, the silly creations of an imagination that is not conscious of its freaks -- in a word, that they are a dream, and you the maker of it. The dream-marks are all present; you should have recognised them earlier.


"It is true, that which I have revealed to you; there is no God, no universe, no human race, no earthly life, no heaven, no hell. It is all a dream a grotesque and foolish dream. Nothing exists but you. And you are but a thought -- a vagrant thought, a useless thought, a homeless thought, wandering forlorn among the empty eternities!"


He vanished, and left me appalled; for I knew, and realised, that all he had said was true.


[Chapter 11, The Mysterious Stranger: first published New York, 1916]

[Ironfoot]

That is one of the best book that i ever read. It made my first push towards atheism. Great and very true book.

[ArcticWolf]

Originally Posted by Ironfoot

That is one of the best book that i ever read. It made my first push towards atheism. Great and very true book.

Every time I see the video or read the text again my thoughts are not the same. It triggers new ideas and nourishes a new "path" in my mind. I guess that personal experience may play a very important role in the outcome of these ideas.