The world through my eyes...

[Inkster]

you know what Mr Bound?

This is probably the most consise and best thread you have ever posted, Kudos to you


Edit: opps fixed typo

[Xero_Aurion]

Originally Posted by Hell_bound

I find it sad that your so confined to what you want to believe that your unwilling to consider that there is an opposite reality to what you hold to be true. But that doesn't matter, for you will either come to know truth or you will become a slave to lies.

And right now your a slave to lies...

No I already know there's an opposite reality to this...what I was trying to say is that when choice is affected by society, it can also be said that society is affected by choice. Regardless of the reason behind the choice to begin with. I'm trying to say is that they can both go hand in hand. It never is just one way or the other, nor is it going to be a balance between the two. It's certainly a mix between them (choice affecting society/society affecting choice) but not a balanced one.

Originally Posted by Hell_bound

Just so you know I hold a BA (which is a four degree at an American University) in which I double majored in both psychology and sociology (double majors are not entirely rare, but rare enough) - so yes I know about MBTI and even taken it. And I also know much about personality and it's development - most of my psychology classes revolved around that subject, in one way or another if not directly involved in the subject.

Really? That's awesome! Good for you!

Originally Posted by Hell_bound

You try to hard... Your assertions of reality is based on things that you believed in because the actions that you took, based on this belief, produced results that allowed you see yourself as master of your own destiny (hence the connection between choice and individualism), and maybe to see yourself as better then others. But the fundamental problem with all this is: is that your actions, along with your belief, was not only supported by society, but was also taught to you by society.

That is to say, someone one or maybe a group of people taught you how you should behave, and what you should believe in to maximize the benefits of society: a job, an education and ect.

And whether you were conscious of this or not part of the teaching process was watching people who didn't do what authority said get punished or maybe you rebelled against the system in which you also experienced punishment. These punishments, either experienced or observed, must have had a profound affect on you because you have a hard time seeing the connection between what you were taught to what you became. But none-the-less your belief is what some may call a self-fulling prophecy - even to the extent that you would blame yourself and others for a wrong you and they did not commit - because you cling to this idea of "choice" so dearly.

I think it's extremely important how society affects individuals because through this understanding we can come to know the myths that are propagated to us that make us believe in a system which is largely rigged to benefit a small group of people. Thus you think you have benefited from your belief in the myth known as "choice" but in reality there are few, maybe more, that have benefited more from your belief in such a choice.

And why is that a bad thing? Because how do you know, as an individual, when your government or other social institutions and even the people around you are doing more harm then good? How is it that you can distinguish truth from lies? And how do you know when this "belief" benefits others more then yourself?

I agree with the above in general, however, I think that society primarily affects you when you are growing up into the stages of adulthood. Take for example when there is a child, their parents would most likely be considered the "society" around them, as well as teachers and their friends. But even though society affects them, it doesn't guarantee that their choices are going to be affected either. Because as they grow up into adulthood, they are going to be bound to make decisions for themselves and this is in hopes to further themselves. (or anyone that is associated with them.) Which is pretty much why I stick with the fact that I'm choosing something. Because that is what I am doing technically, I'm making a decision in something (regardless of reason)

I've already thought about those concepts and actually, one of my purposes IS to help benefit not just myself but others as well and this is intentionally. I'm normally the kind of person to give the benefit of the doubt when it comes to most people. That can be both a strength and a weakness depending on the situation. I guess if I had to fall in a category, it would most likely be under the category of idealism I think. Anyways...I don't know every -ism category out there.

Originally Posted by Hell_bound

If you really want to know where I base my ideas from, which you will find out are based on scientific fact - because all these theories were tested, and retested and the outcomes were the same (hence the science of sociology), then here is a list of readings, all easy because its from wiki:

Introduction to sociology and some basic concepts:
Sociology: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociology
Social class:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_class
Life chances: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_chances
Power: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_(sociology)
Roles: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Sociolo...ry/Role_Theory

Some thinkers and shakers of sociology:
Émile Durkheim: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89mile_Durkheim
Max Weber: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Weber
Karl Marx: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marx
George Herbert Mead: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Herbert_Mead
Erving Goffman: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erving_Goffman
Michel Foucault: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Foucault

Some core theories of sociology:
Marxism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxism
Feminism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism
Gender identity: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexuality_(gender)
Symbolic interactionism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbolic_interactionism
Interactionism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpr...social_science)
Looking glass self: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Looking_glass_self
World-systems approach: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World-systems_theory <- personal favorite

You can "choose" to believe what you want to believe, but in the end I know what truth is because I not only studied it but I also lived it.[/QUOTE]

You seem to have quite an extent of knowledge based on Sociology. Plus the fact that you make your statements based on fact makes it good. In fact it's very good! I personally commend you for that as well as your knowledge on this. However, I get the feeling that it's a bit one-sided. As if to say that it simply listens to fact and disregards anything and everything else, which doesn't quite seem right. Meaning that there doesn't seem to be a questioning side to what you've been discussing. Now when I say questioning, I mean to consider any possibility regardless if there is a fact behind it. If it sounds logical, then I think it should be considered at the very least. Which I don't think you may have done entirely.....

One thing I know about any science, is that there's always a theory or concept behind it. But since it is a theory, which goes to show it isn't a law, it makes it subject to question. Even if the questions seem very odd and may very well have no possible answer. Regardless of the fact that it has been tested to be known as an unofficial law, will still not make the difference. Since the fact is that it still remains a theory.

Anyways I'm trying to take both sides into account of this...if there's something I'm missing or if I made no sense somewhere then just ask because my posts were intentionally made to catch your attention, I'm not trying to disagree or say what you are saying/doing is wrong, I am just here to learn and live. (Plus the topic at hand is: "The world through your eyes..." so we are not really in position to make personal comments to you. We can only state our opinions.) Know that what I mentioned in my previous post was just something I found interesting to "point out." Plus I thought it would help since it didn't look like you were "thinking the other way around" You can tell me what you like. But I'll still do what I want. However one thing is for certain. Your voice isn't going unheard when talking to me. I am certainly here to at least listen to your opinion, and then formulate any questions or even question it with my own or even with something I'll want to "point out."

[Hell_bound]

Originally Posted by Inkster

you know whay Mr Bound?

This is probably the most consise and best thread you have ever posted, Kudos to you

I'm grateful that you think this, and thank you for your kind words; it means a lot.

Originally Posted by Xero_Aurion

... what I was trying to say is that when choice is affected by society, it can also be said that society is affected by choice... I'm trying to say is that they can both go hand in hand. It never is just one way or the other, nor is it going to be a balance between the two. It's certainly a mix between them (choice affecting society/society affecting choice) but not a balanced one.

Although I understand what you are saying here and also think that generally this is a true statement, you hit upon an important idea here about balance. In that in order to truly understand why people are, intentionally, limited in their choices is because most people are limited in their resources. Unfortunately resources equate in this world as power: the more you have the more power you have, the more choices you have.

So in this framework we need to be weary of how certain messages are propagated within our societies through media (television, music, movies, print, talk shows and ect.), government officials and corporations (nike, aig, american express and ect.) because these entities (1) control all information within our society and (2) can create (when they coordinate their efforts together) an image of reality that is not only untrue but also unsustainable. And they do this because they know how to manipulate public opinion (through the theoretical theories of sociology and psychology), and in the end what that means for them is that they gain control and most the wealth of the populous.

And it all starts, for example, by making one believe they have a choice between consumer products; that they have the choice to pay for that product now or later; that they have a choice in who should be president; that have a choice in what to learn; that they have a choice to define who they are... but in reality each choice that you make that allows them to gain is actually taking away your power and striping you of your resources, be that money, production (making products or ideas) or even time.


These choices lead one to believe they are a free agent within the world, but in reality it causes slavery.

Originally Posted by Xero_Aurion

...I think that society primarily affects you when you are growing up into the stages of adulthood...

This is definitely when the seeds are sown, in the youth of a society; but like any seed, that is laid in fresh fertile soil, it germinates and thus its root structure spreads out deep within the soil, its branches grow and spread out, and even though it does as nature tells it to, as it grows it casts a shadow to all around it (think like sun hitting a tree or sunflower and how that casts a shadow). This is exactly how ideas are taught to us and how those ideas in later life (adulthood) still affect how we see reality - they can even be subconscious.

Originally Posted by Xero_Aurion

...I get the feeling that it's a bit one-sided. As if to say that it simply listens to fact and disregards anything and everything else, which doesn't quite seem right...

It should feel this way to you because (1) you never really heard of this message so in a way its a new paradigm in which to view things, and (2) because nothing, and I mean nothing, that you view reflects this in your reality (and that is because between the seed sowers and and the people who attended the growth of those seeds the message of that reality was so synchronized that it seemed seamless). And I would assume that in some ways it may even seem threatening, at least that is the way its been with other people I have talked to about such issues. But that feeling doesn't make it any less true.

Originally Posted by Xero_Aurion

Anyways I'm trying to take both sides into account of this...if there's something I'm missing or if I made no sense somewhere then just ask because my posts were intentionally made to catch your attention, I'm not trying to disagree or say what you are saying/doing is wrong, I am just here to learn and live. (Plus the topic at hand is: "The world through your eyes..." so we are not really in position to make personal comments to you. We can only state our opinions.) Know that what I mentioned in my previous post was just something I found interesting to "point out." Plus I thought it would help since it didn't look like you were "thinking the other way around" You can tell me what you like. But I'll still do what I want. However one thing is for certain. Your voice isn't going unheard when talking to me. I am certainly here to at least listen to your opinion, and then formulate any questions or even question it with my own or even with something I'll want to "point out."

I kinda have an advantage over you in that I been entrenched in these schools of thought for a while now and even done studies of my own that were based on their theories and findings, but I'm grateful that you have taken an open mind to all this because most don't (and the reasons why are stated above).

But also you should know that from our exchange here I also have benefited - by you presenting the opposite side you allowed me to formulate and expand that which I know, as well as allow me to communicate this in a new way, and even come to some other conclusions on past things I thought about. So I'm thankful that you're willing to engage in these types of conversations .

And its not about making you change, because there is one thing that I can guarantee: you will change in one way or another because that is the process of life - life is constant change. We just have to keep asking is this change good?

Originally Posted by Nin: Non-entity

The sky is not the same shade of blue
Every single thing I believe isn’t true
Missing in the maze of monochrome
How did I get here, how can I go home

The echoes in my eyes, of all they used to see
Burning down the world, the ashes and debris
And all that’s left of me, non-entity…

Try to stand in line, try to obey
The ghost of what I was keep getting in the way
Staring at the sun, I’m blinded by the light
Now I’m afraid I’m fading out of sight

The echoes in my eyes, of all they used to see
Burning down the world, the ashes and debris
And all that’s left of you, and all that’s left of me
All have washed away, non-entity...

[Xero_Aurion]

Hell_Bound you sound a person who likes to listen and learn depending on the information. So I have a request for you. I'd like you to watch this video.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...43037963555139

I have already viewed this video. I did post this before (in a different thread) and indicated that it was rather informative. However, now I'm curious to see how an individual such as yourself might respond to this video. This video is approximately 2 hours long, so I'd advise you to watch it when you have the spare time, and when you're mind isn't occupied with anything else.

Then I'd like you to post what you think on it please.

[Static_Fang]

Have you ever thought about the END?

I have, its beautiful. Theres No idiots, no bullies, no right and no wrong. Just... a void.

Within the void, nothing bad nor good happens. No harm can come for you, no pain no suffering. Everything will be neutral. No words, no thoughs just...nothing.

So tell me, is it insightful to think that which is bad is good? Is it insightful to question what is there? Why question life, you've got one shot at it so dont listen to anybody else. Do what you want, do what makes you happy.



My alias are many, one is Venom, I'm a gamer, a nerd/geek hybrid and a spider fanatic. And i'm fucking proud of it.

[Angel_de_Combate]

Originally Posted by Static_Fang

Have you ever thought about the END?

I have, its beautiful. Theres No idiots, no bullies, no right and no wrong. Just... a void.

Within the void, nothing bad nor good happens. No harm can come for you, no pain no suffering. Everything will be neutral. No words, no thoughs just...nothing.

So tell me, is it insightful to think that which is bad is good? Is it insightful to question what is there? Why question life, you've got one shot at it so dont listen to anybody else. Do what you want, do what makes you happy.

You only live life once

Originally Posted by static_fang

My alias are many, one is Venom, I'm a gamer, a nerd/geek hybrid and a spider fanatic. And i'm fucking proud of it.

Kudos to you, my lovely

[Hell_bound]

Originally Posted by Xero_Aurion

Hell_Bound you sound a person who likes to listen and learn depending on the information. So I have a request for you. I'd like you to watch this video.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...43037963555139...

Then I'd like you to post what you think on it please.

I'm going to be honest with you because I think you been a really cool person to bounce ideas off, and a person who seems to play devils advocate really well .

Here is the deal, videos like these seem to have their facts all lined up (but note they never give a source to those facts) to disseminate a perfect rationalization to what's going on, but the people that create such videos are ignorant of the real truth.

The real truth is that not one entity, human being, or organization can be attributed to the claims being made in this video.

And the reason why that is, is because humans from different nationalities, political spectrums and so forth don't act in unison because often they are at odds within one another.

So to explain what the video cannot explain is that humans often work for the same outcome, even though they might be at odds with one another. And often this working is done without a conscious effort of the actors who are doing the acting.

That is, if you look at human nature, it's kinda like random action - within that random action you will have people working towards the same goals but with a different means of obtaining that goal; however, eventually their paths may cross and one might (a person who observes this action, like the individual that created this video) think that two (or more) groups were actually working on the same plan.

This idea comes from chaos theory and is the best way to describe actions of people in power (but act separate from one another), who can change the core of a nation or a group of people.

They say a picture is worth a thousand words, and here I agree in that the best way to explain this is by the picture that is found at the top of this site (though read the site because the idea of a bifurcation is important to understanding human nature) : http://spanky.fractint.org/www/fractint/bif_type.html

Now as you can see there was an action, from that action it causes two actions, and from those two actions it cause thousands of actions, but note how those thousands of actions intersect and cross one another, forever changing the coarse of action (and thus aligning it with actions from another group) that preceded the action before the interaction or cross happened.

I will say this however, this video shows something very special about human beings and that is how humans chose to rationalize what is going on around them; however, the rationalizations in this video are all wrong because Rothschild never created the Golden Dawn, it was McGregor Mathers ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_MacGregor_Mathers ) , and I know this because basically I follow the tradition of the Golden dawn with my workings of Magick.

That is right, I practice Magick. And anyone who knows about the true nature of Magick will know that all that is stated in this video is pure bullshit.

Again you can believe what you want to believe... but somewhere the truth (as you can look through my posts as I stated many times before) lies between the objectiveness of science and the inherent nature of spirituality.

Hell_bound

Originally Posted by Jane's Addiction *

I chip away
Cause I'm not ok
So I
I chip away
Poked a hole right into myself
And inside I found someone
Who said I was O.K.
Still I don't feel easy

On this tree
Among the blossoms
Caustically
I am the thorn
Close my eyes to take up spare time
I wish I just
Could be where the crowd goes
With the crowd
They must be going somewhere

Up from the catacombs
I ran into the angel again
He took the high road
And I took the low road
We both were dirty faces
We both were dirty faces

I don't
I don't
I don't
Don't feel easy
I don't
I don't
I don't
Don't feel easy

Sorry man the link above doesn't really explain a bifurcation really well, only from a mathematical standpoint. I think these sites should help better when understandin them from the viewpoint of human action:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

And more mathematical explanations, remember from a sociological/psychological view we need mathematical models to explain human nature and this is where it derives from (the link above):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bifurcation_theory

* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIKz-_zP1yI