Faith and all the things..

[Angel_de_Combate]

Im sure alot of people have heard of this song recently (personally i like the original version by Jeff Buckley), but im more interested in the lyrics.

Originally Posted by Jeff Buckley

i heard there was a secret chord
that david played and it pleased the lord
but you don't really care for music, do you
well it goes like this the fourth, the fifth
the minor fall and the major lift
the baffled king composing hallelujah

hallelujah...

well your faith was strong but you needed proof
you saw her bathing on the roof
her beauty and the moonlight overthrew you
she tied you to her kitchen chair
she broke your throne and she cut your hair
and from your lips she drew the hallelujah

hallelujah...

baby i've been here before
i've seen this room and i've walked this floor
i used to live alone before i knew you
i've seen your flag on the marble arch
but love is not a victory march
it's a cold and it's a broken hallelujah

hallelujah...

well there was a time when you let me know
what's really going on below
but now you never show that to me do you
but remember when i moved in you
and the holy dove was moving too
and every breath we drew was hallelujah

well, maybe there's a god above
but all i've ever learned from love
was how to shoot somebody who outdrew you
it's not a cry that you hear at night
it's not somebody who's seen the light
it's a cold and it's a broken hallelujah

hallelujah...

Lately ive become very interested in philosophy, faith and such like, i got myself a book today by Friedrich Nietzsche, ive read some of his work on the net, but i just wondered if anyone had any other suggestions of any other philosophers and can you let me know. Thankyou

P.s i posted the lyrics becos..they just nudged something in my head, dont ask me why..lol

[Ulmanyar]

Originally Posted by Skatz1980

(personally i like the original version by Jeff Buckley)

Actually, this song is written by Leonard Cohen, but the version made by Jeff is probably the most famous one. I am a huge fan of Jeff, and he really is/was a remarkable person.

With this post, I don't want to be a besserwisser, I just simply wanted to say that Jeff is a great artist, and that I adore his work.

[Miraculix]

It's a Leonard Cohen song, as Ulma pointed out. Also, there is a verse that Buckley usually leaves out, and Cohen does sometimes too, because of it's sexual content. If you search it a bit you might find a live performance with the complete lyrics.

PS: Oh wait I think the one you posted includes that verse

[Enitharmon]

Some of the most intense religious/philosophical books i've read are Leo Tolstoj's works, "The Kingdom of God is within you", "Confessions", "The Gospel in Brief", although most would categorize those more as religious/mystical than philosophical. I read those in parallell with Nietzsche (...Zarathustra) and even though their conclusions are technically diametrically opposed there is also surprisingly much alike between them (maybe because they lived in the same time period).

[Angel_de_Combate]

Originally Posted by Enitharmon

Some of the most intense religious/philosophical books i've read are Leo Tolstoj's works, "The Kingdom of God is within you", "Confessions", "The Gospel in Brief", although most would categorize those more as religious/mystical than philosophical. I read those in parallell with Nietzsche (...Zarathustra) and even though their conclusions are technically diametrically opposed there is also surprisingly much alike between them (maybe because they lived in the same time period).

Yeah i read something the other day and your name Enitharmon came up :-

Originally Posted by William Blake

Preludium to Europe

The nameless shadowy female rose from out the breast of Orc,
Her snaky hair brandishing in the winds of Enitharmon;
And thus her voice arose

I always wondered where you got the name from

The Nietzche book i have is "Beyond good and Evil", and shamefully im reading it aloud simply because..hmmm well some bits i understand and some i dont. Im interested in philosophy and Nietzsche caught my eye, so could you suggest something that's a bit more palatable to my beginners mind please ? Ill admit im not a believer of God as such (despite the experiences ive had in life that probably contridict this statement), but the whole question of Faith, Religions and Mystical aspects of life are intriguing me but i really dont know where to start, its kind of frustrating.
(I wish i had IRC still Enith to thrash these bits that are bugging me lol)

[Angel_de_Combate]

Originally Posted by DjupaTanken

Actually, this song is written by Leonard Cohen, but the version made by Jeff is probably the most famous one. I am a huge fan of Jeff, and he really is/was a remarkable person.

With this post, I don't want to be a besserwisser, I just simply wanted to say that Jeff is a great artist, and that I adore his work.

Yeah i read up a little on him, he died while swimming in the Wolf River..only 30, will have to have a good look at his other stuff

[Hell_bound]

Originally Posted by Skatz1980

... could you suggest something that's a bit more palatable to my beginners mind please ?

The problem with classical philosophers is that they generally came from a world different from the commoner. That is to say, classical philosophers were mostly rich and spent most of their time thinking and writing.

As you know this differs from the commoner who spends their entire life working.

However, this type of lifestyle allowed these philosophers to achieve extreme ideologies, or pure ideas that seem like the most profound and logical thoughts ever created. Yet they often fail to be transferable outside the realm of ideas (aside from their mathematical discoveries) and that is because humans, by and large, don't live like these individuals did or do, for they were the privileged of their time.

This is also another reason why their ideas are so hard to understand, they literately spent years building up their rationalizations by hammering them, and shaping them - creating new words, and analytical styles to to justify, to themselves, the positions they took.

Which in the end makes it insane, in my opinion, to even consider their ideas worthy to follow.

That is not to say they did not have good ideas, rationalizations, but they are so far removed from human reality (hence ideas) that their application to the real world often fails (again aside from mathematics).

But none-the-less I offer this individual as a suggestion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Williams

Originally Posted by Skatz1980

... but the whole question of Faith, Religions and Mystical aspects of life are intriguing me but i really dont know where to start, its kind of frustrating.

The answer to questions of Faith, Religions and Mystical aspects of life wont be found from classical philosophy (or even modern philosophy).

To get these answers one needs to study the theological aspects of a given religion or mystical system in order to understand their significance and then practice them.

However, if you are interested in such things I think the best way to study theological aspects is from a perspective that is resembles those that are most known to you.

For example, for Christianity I would suggest reading from this individual: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Aquinas

Or perhaps Dietrich Bonhoeffer, which some of his ideas can be found here http://www.iep.utm.edu/b/bonhoeff.htm

But for Bonhoeffer I would suggest the book: Bonhoeffer's Ethics.

I assume that Christianity is something that you are well acquainted with given that you are British (if I remember right). Understanding their basic rationalizations will allow you to decrypt their worldview and will serve as a bases to allow you apply that, how you come to understand their perspective and their short comings, to other religions and mystical systems.

[Angel_de_Combate]

Originally Posted by H_B

That is not to say they did not have good ideas, rationalizations, but they are so far removed from human reality (hence ideas) that their application to the real world often fails (again aside from mathematics).

Well i tried to read some more of Nietzche, alas i agree its like ramblings inter-mixed with some bits i understand and/or agree with. Hmm christianity(kind of interests me..kind of not)...well a while back i got into reading into pagan connections with the area where i live..twas very interesting.. Just lately the main question going round and round in my head is this "what is life all about...the human race as a whole..?" and yes a very big question(for me anyways). We all plod along in life, but how many of us..really truly get it all...? Eeek quite possibly im rambling here lol

Originally Posted by H_B

I assume that Christianity is something that you are well acquainted with given that you are British (if I remember right).

Aye british born and bred

In reality i dont know any people i can ask about stuff like this, kind of hard to explain but most people i know in RL are not really open to ideas or thoughts like this really and if i was(and i have) to mention said thoughts id get the "look" <sighs>.

Originally Posted by H_B

As you know this differs from the commoner who spends their entire life working.

Not commoner..common man/woman, someone who thinks rationally. I think i might have bizarre split thought processes going on..i want to explore possibilities, but...sometimes get too "grounded", hence the need for some literary guidance. Thankyou anyway H_B, much appreciated

[Hell_bound]

Originally Posted by Skatz1980

In reality i dont know any people i can ask about stuff like this, kind of hard to explain but most people i know in RL are not really open to ideas or thoughts like this really and if i was(and i have) to mention said thoughts id get the "look" <sighs>.

Most people never question the reality round them, and why should they; for they see all around them people that act the same. Humans are a social animal and thus will always strive to met the status quo, and the reason why this is case is because if they don't they wont gain entrance to groups, social clicks, or even be granted social mobility (for example, goths in Briton may have a hard time getting hired for a job because of the way they dress, wear makeup, have piercings and so on).

The reason why you would get the "look" is because you threaten their sense of the world, whether they are conscious of it or not. Basically by questioning reality you also question their motives, actions and their understanding of the world.

In essence you unravel how they make sense of the world and the justifications they use. And to some this is seen as a threat, so much so they they will use violence against you.

Also if you go to long, that is questioning reality, and are able to prove your point to where not only individuals feel threatened, but also whole groups of individuals, watch out because then you will face an organized effort to stop you from questioning the reality of things. Because you may actually unhinge the power of such groups.

If you think this is just conspiracy nonsense I would urge you to read about any revolutionary movement that has occurred in history and what the power elite in said society did to such people or groups.

Such revolutions, whether violent or not, always started with someone, or a group of people that questioned the reality around them.

Originally Posted by Skatz1980

Not commoner..common man/woman, someone who thinks rationally...

Here we must make a distinction between commoner and the notion of a "common man/woman who thinks rationally".

First, all humans are rational. Some would tell you that this is what makes the human more advanced then other species, however, other animals also act within a rational too. The true difference between the human animal and other animal species is that humans have the capability for abstract thinking which led humanity to evolve language, writing and mathematics. Aside from this special ability humans are like every other animal.

So given this then there is no difference between humans, for you are correct, they are common in that they think rationally.

Second, the true distinction between humans is their social-economic status and this difference can have an extreme impact on individuals.

For example, who is more likely to come up with ideas that have an impact on society? The individual that toils all day in the field and then comes home to a needy family or the individual who, because of the amount of wealth he has, is able to remove himself from the day-to-day toils of life and set his life to solving the great questions that plague humanity?

The commoner is restricted from making changes in society because the commoner has to focus on his work, which has nothing to do with thinking in abstract thoughts, and providing for his family.

Yet if he has time left from these tasks he can use what little time he has as for the purpose of questioning reality and come up with a new way to understanding it. Often though such individuals are met with much resistance for the very reasons I noted above.

And again if you think this is false I would urge you to look at how rich people imped on the rights of the poor and how rich nations imped upon the political rights of poor nations. That is to say, in each case the rich impact the world more then the poor, and often the poor are fraught with resistance to their ideas.

For an example of this I would urge you to read about two situations: (1) the civil rights movement in America, in which Whites suppressed the Rights of Blacks, and (2) the socialist movement in South America during the '70s and what the Western nations thought and did with this movement.

Remember, what can be seen happing in the micro (actions between individuals and groups) can also be seen in the macro (actions between nation-states).

[Angel_de_Combate]

I can see why you have so much to say on this subject, which is all the better for me

Originally Posted by H_B

The reason why you would get the "look" is because you threaten their sense of the world, whether they are conscious of it or not. Basically by questioning reality you also question their motives, actions and their understanding of the world.

In a nut shell..people dont like you to "rock the boat"..as in make their world seem less secure..more sinister...for example some of my personal experiences my close friends dont even know about because of the same reasons as you previously stated..people dont want to know about the bad stuff that goes on in the world around us. Me..i take it for what it is.."shit happens.." its how you deal with it that makes all the difference the answer is not to bury your head in the sand, you question it, poke at it, till hopefully somewhere in it all it makes some kind of sense.

Originally Posted by H_B

Second, the true distinction between humans is their social-economic status and this difference can have an extreme impact on individuals.

Ah..money..the root to all evil ?? Seriously though, money is only nice if you have lots of it, i dont and frankly it bothers me sometimes but i have to alter my view and try to see having little money as a challenge, a test if you will. I wonder if the richer men and women of this world..truly feel lucky..privileged even..they count their lucky stars that they dont live somewhere ..where they live hand to mouth everyday of their lives..id rather be poor and rich in knowledge, than rich and ignorant..

Originally Posted by H_B

And again if you think this is false I would urge you to look at how rich people imped on the rights of the poor and how rich nations imped upon the political rights of poor nations. That is to say, in each case the rich impact the world more then the poor, and often the poor are fraught with resistance to their ideas.

I dont think it's false at all...i hate snobbery..i dislike people who think their better than others, as far im concerned..we all come into this world the same way

Originally Posted by H_B

For an example of this I would urge you to read about two situations: (1) the civil rights movement in America, in which Whites suppressed the Rights of Blacks, and (2) the socialist movement in South America during the '70s and what the Western nations thought and did with this movement.

I will do.

P.s Any good books..links you can recommend would be appreciated..ty