Exploring the Regnum Economy - Potential for Fort Wars

[meldarion]

I think that some of the ideas in this (http://www.regnumonline.com.ar/forum/showthread.php?t=14833) thread have some merit, however I would like to address one of the ideas - namely the economy one.

Evaluating the RO Economy

I have taken the data from the RO official site here (http://www.regnumonline.com.ar/ranking/index.php?l=1&realm=3&world=ra&opt=8) and it is the top 30 clans by rank of wealth. This gives an good average view of the Regnum economy state.

I have taken the three realms individually, and produced the following model:
http://www.regnumonline.com.ar/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5915&stc=1&d=1195989667

There is only one made-up measure in this model and that is GPP (Gold Per Player). As there is no sensible way to measure player wealth, the GPP offers a good average measure of the wealth of the average player in each realm.

To start the explanation, it would be best to have the model linked above in view as I reference it frequently.

The idea that I am exploring is to apply a change to global realm prices. That is, once an event is triggered (fort is gained/lost), there is an effect on the prices of the realm that gained and the realm that lost the fort.

The first column "% change" refers to the change in percentage to the economic value index of that realm. The value index is only relevant when there is change associated with it, so in our case (the first set of numbers) we have a change of +15%. We are showing all realms side by side, so as to get a picture the effect of +15% for EACH realm. Consider them independent results.

We can see that for Alsius, a +15% change would eventually cause every players' GPP to rise by 195,192.60. However, it means that immediately the inflation is 13.04% for that realm. That is to say, the realm (as a whole) will eventually reach the increased amount, but for them to get there, they need to start climbing right away. Thats inflation in a nutshell.

The Price Index is the important column. The price index will be 86.96 for Alsius. Since the Price Index is based on 100 gold (hence it can be expressed as a percentage, but it is easy to get confused what the percentage means), we can easily determine the added value of the "% change" that was caused.

The Price Index of 86.96 means that given 100 gold coins now, you can buy 86.96 gold coins before the fort was taken. That means that the intrinsic value of the gold coin has appreciated because the fort was taken.

What does this mean for the Money Multiplier? Well - this is an awesome result! - Since the Money Multiplier is the same as the "% change", it is really easy to predict by how much the realm is going to increase, fueled by the increase in GPP. Since the Inflation is LESS THAN the Money Multiplier, it means that the increase in realm wealth will never spiral out of control.

Assume an unlikely scenario that one realm manages to capture and hold ALL of the forts for a long time (days, weeks, months). The identity of Inflation < Money Multiplier means that for every +15% of wealth that the realm gets from holding the forts (by decreased purchase prices), it will only grow by +13.04%. Over time, that means that every purchase (selling & buying goods, repair, etc) will lose 1.96% from the value, slowly pushing prices up and stopping the growth factor.

This, in essence, removes the horrible scenario that could occur if a realm continuously increased their wealth by a positive growth. (If Inflation > Money Multiplier)

How do prices get manipulated?

Well - prices are subject to the "% change" rule, effective immediately. So a +15% change to wealth, means that prices for purchase need to decrease by 7.5% (buy goods cheaper) and prices for sale need to increase by 7.5% (sell loot more expensively), giving an average change in wealth equal to the change in "% change".

How does this all work in practice?

Well, we have 3 realms & 9 forts. What needs to be done is this:

Make base prices based on 3 forts
Each additional fort captured represents a +% to the realm growth
Each fort lost represents a -% for the realm


Lets take a real example. In Syrtis you can buy a Dareh staff for 31500 gold.
Now, we need to change that to reflect the 3 forts, assuming a fort is worth 1% growth and a castle is worth 2% growth. (The entire world is growing at 12% that way)

That means that for the Dareh staff to be worth 31500 gold, it needs 2 forts and a castle captured. So that means a baseline growth of 4%. In the RO Economy View link above, 5% growth amounted to 4.76% inflation, so doing a quick calculation, 4% growth means a 3.85% inflation. So we need to calculate the price of the staff for the baseline. The baseline cost is 100%-3.85% = 96.25%. However, we take half to sell and half to buy to make it a balanced wealth change. Which in gold coins is: 31500 x 98.075% = 30,894.23 (or 30,894 to nearest gold coin).

So, when Syrtis has lost ALL of its forts & castles, the amount you can sell this staff to a merchant for would be 30894, instead of 31500. Consequentially, you also buy it for 32107 gold coins, instead of the 31500.

So this means that items become cheaper to sell, and more expensive to buy if you have lost forts. Conversely, items become cheaper to buy and more expensive to sell if you have gained forts.

I believe that this is some empirical evidence that the Regnum Economy is able to support such a change. The numbers & MS Excel worksheet I can provide if it is requested. The numbers show that a 4% decrease in wealth does not do great harm to the realm, but is enough to make it worthwhile getting your forts back.

I would love to hear your comments & views on this analysis!

Meldarion
Member of Clan Inquisition - www.claninquisition.org (http://www.claninquisition.org)

[Ertial]

Nice idea!
But isn't the difference a bit too low? I mean, 600 gold isn't much. I should increase how much each fort or castle worth is. But inflation would definitely add a reason for forts to capture.
But I think there should also be another thing added. If for example there are billions of aquantis skins sold the price will drop, since there are more than enough.

[Bully]

I think as a whole the economics fluctuations is a great idea. I'm not sure it needs to be that complicated though. Not all players are economists. I understand what you're saying but remember there are a lot of younger people playing too. I definately think there would be a lot more interest in fort wars. Maybe NGD could comment on the possibilities of some economic system in the future?

[padreigh]

Impressed by your math and idea ... but i think other things come first. If you get 30k and more for a quest its nonsense to calc so much things only to lessen some item by .6k.

[chuckclose1]

i aggree with several things said by everyone and didagree that the system will be worth the effort

first like someone said most people playing havent even graduated high school yet they lack the education that some of us have( because of there age not intelegence). i feel this system would be too hard to understand for most of them

this system would tak so much work on ngd part to impliment such things it wouldn't be worth doing for such small values

i also feel you take your ideas from real life econemy , which has so many more factors making values change then just the fact of captureing a fort or castle only to loose it as soon as 2 mins later in some cases.

how ever much i like the idea i disagree that it would work in the manner that u have presented it.

[Malich]

i feel this system would be too hard to understand for most of them
They don't really need to know. Just say "If your realm has captured alot of forts/castles, you get better deals from merchants.
I agree that the idea would be difficult to implement, though.
Maybe add it to the list of things to be implemented in the far future?

[Angelwinged_Devil]

I don't think it's hard to implent malich, really. It should just be made effective, should the prices be calculated.

I don't think the whole idea with calculating the price of a particular item influenced by the economy in regnum makes sense at all.

1. The ones who have just gotten level 50 mainly mages has much more gold, now they won't be training anymore by mobs and therefore won't recieve gold or loot cause they don't have to, their economy will go down until they think they have to little and will have to grind again to make it go up.

2. the world they live in doesn't have a system for counting their money and how much they have, there's magic all right but the magic there isn't like in harry potter where they control the country with magic and count dead bodies etc. It's used in war, to protect cities and enchant items. So how would the merchants know to sell their stuff lower based on the gpp as they will have no idea of how much money there is in the other realms, they only know if their customers have too much money in their hands or not. There's not even such thing as the economies mentioned today as there are in there if you walk around and talk with the npcs.

3. the gpp is much more effected by high levels than low levels, they don't get enough gold for their quests or their loot as high levels do, then again the stuff with high levels economy also plays a role here. It's too dynamic to really make a difference in a whole realm.

making it as it is with just ONLY the forts seems enough to me. if you lose all your forts and castles you'll have 4% lower or higher prices. Or maybe a little more as it won't effect the guys who have such a high level that much.

Maybe 2% per fort and 4% per castle is better ;).

and why not give it that for each fort and castle you don't have it costs 2k more for each fort and 4k for the castle to get trained at the warlock trainer.

[Bully]

They don't really need to know. Just say "If your realm has captured alot of forts/castles, you get better deals from merchants.
I agree that the idea would be difficult to implement, though.
Maybe add it to the list of things to be implemented in the far future?


The math behind the system doesn't matter. That part will be taken care of by the programmer and, ultimately, the server. Basically, if a realms' forts and/or castle is taken, merchants will charge more for consumer products, offer less for your sellable items, and it'll cost more for repairs until the properties are taken back. And, of course the opposite would happen when a realm captures an enemies properties. I think the currency would have to have a significant increase/decrease upon capture of buildings to be effective. And by effective I mean to generate enough interest in regaining lost properties so everyone actually wants to participate in the fight for what has been lost. Controlling interest would suddenly become very important to everyone. War drives the economy.

[NightTwix]

wow

the numbers are impressing. especially that syrtis has twice the population of alsius

I dont know if this is the best system, but anything that says "we have a disadvantage because of a lost fort" will attract to fort wars for sure.

The real impact wont be dramatic and it dont has to be. You dont repair or buy stuff that often.
And gold isnt gold isnt such an important factor as there is so much of it.
But the psychological impact gonna be immense.

Right now people mainly retake forts because of the pride if you add a penealty to it, it will attract way more ppl to it.

(and i prefer such a solution 1000 more than that stupid evasion idea)

[wakim42]

Right now people mainly retake forts because of the pride if you add a penealty to it, it will attract way more ppl to it.


Thats true but i'm really not sure it will make "large group hunters" (even rather large) more attracted to take forts since they know they wont benefit from the economical bonus they would create (unless they suicide themselves to rush to the repairs....)

So all in all maybe more people will come to help retake a fort (i'm not even confident about that cause there are already most people able to help that come) but it wont resolve the fact that 20 syrtisians prefer going to market/pozo rather than to pinos fort.

[Bully]

The real impact wont be dramatic and it dont has to be. You dont repair or buy stuff that often.
And gold isnt gold isnt such an important factor as there is so much of it.


Yes, at level 50. Not so much at the first 30 levels. War Zone level players should be keeping their best interest in mind as well.

[chuckclose1]

gold is not that important to me and alot of others

like i have about 4 mil gold and so do alot of others
so we could care less if prices go up or down 2-4%

now others in my clan and outside my clan , especially archer class
are going broke paying for arrows and repairs

so how would this system be fare to them

some dont need anymore gold and some do

i like the idea of captureing and loosing forts haveing more of an impact on the game
i defenately think something should be implemented to add to the importance of taking forts

butt affecting the econemy based on fort wars is not the answer in my openion

[e30G]

Good work on the numbers! I hope something like this gets implemented. :)

[-Paradox-]

chuckclose1 is right, if the archers are suffereing now it will be hell for them in the future. im leveling a marksmen now and i want it to get to lvl 50 without having to grind money from my barbarian to pay for everything.

[meldarion]

Hey All,

Thanks for your great comments!

The first one has been answered - yeah, the system is complicated, but the computer can calculate stuff a lot faster and just present the price that you are going to buy and sell at.

About the Archers/Mage debate - The unfortunate effect of any change in the economy will affect Archers.
The data that I have gathered comes from the top 30 Clans of each realm. That means that there are mages who have money that are sitting on it. I think a fair deal would be for clan-member mages to help their archers by giving them some of the gold!. Have a clan treasury! It helps to keep the archers going by providing them with what they need.

If your archers are going to be hit during a crisis...GET YOUR FORTS BACK!!!!

Its more motivation for you to get your forts back. Isn't that what you've all been asking for???

Also, for NGD, it would not be hard to implement this - everytime a fort is captured they can recalculate the prices (it may take a minute) but it is still very possible!

[ncvr]

On the matter of it not being fair to archers, actually that's the whole point...as Meldarion stated, if you want to reduce the high prices of arrows and repairs, then capture some forts.

[makarios68]

I like the idea of making fort capture more attractive.

Tying this in with the economy sounds cool to me.

[urgit]

This is not fair to archers, especially high-level archers. In wz there is no high level arrows, you must go to the reign. You can help to capture some forts to obtain a better price but while you are going to the reign, they can be lost.

Maybe the prices must be only recalculated every 30 min (or an hour).

Anyway, I'm a hunter and I never have problems with gold.

[e30G]

I have another addition to that idea. Since economies generally do not react instantly, I think it will only make it fair and more interesting to make the economic changes gradual with time.

If the total allowable price change will be 4%, then we can make the prices change for 1% every 10 minutes you own the fort. For example:

Alsius takes Herberd
- less than 10 mins after the capture, the prices of both realms remain the same.
- 10 mins after the capture, Alsius prices drop 1% while Syrtis prices rise 1%
- 20 mins after the capture, Alsius prices would drop a total of 2% while Syrtis prices rise a total of 2% and so on until after 40 mins, the prices will stabilize at 4% higher or lower for both realms.
- When the fort is retaken by Syrtis, the above process will repeat until it stabilizes at the normal price rates.

Advantages:
- It allows the fort takers to take advantage of the lowered repair and item costs after they lose the fort (they will have up to 40 mins to repair and purchase everything they need).
- It allows the losing realm some time to resupply or repair if needed.

Another idea got to me after reading a post here showing the DAoC map divided into grids. Perhaps we can divide each realm into 3 equal blocks in the warzone. Taking over a fort in that block will cause the invading realm to receive a small xp bonus (maybe 10%?) for monsters killed in that area. Likewise, the realm that lost a fort there will lose the same amount of xp for every monster killed in that grid.

Advantages:
- It will attract more players to move to that area for leveling when the fort is taken thus increasing the ease for calling for reinforcements when needed.
- It will attract players from the realm that lost the fort who are leveling in that area to participate in the recapture of their fort. (I noticed that right now, some players near a fort taken by an enemy don't even bother with helping to retake it. This should solve that).

These two reward systems and penalties should in my opinion increase interest and urgency to fort wars vs simple hunting.

[Bully]

Some of the best ideas I've heard yet are here in this thread. I can't agree with the arguement put forth by, or on behalf of archers though. I leveled a hunter to level 50. For the fist 20 levels cash was always tight but there weren't any problems after that. Especially when arrow prices went from X2.5 to X1. It took me about a month or so to get from level 30 to level 50 but when I hit 50 I had 6.4 million in gold.

[Ertial]

Good ideas. But maybe you should think in another way. If all forts are lost, there have died a lot of people and soon the realm will be conquered! The merchants want to sell everything before the enemy is at the gates. So they sell it for any price as long as they get at least a bit of the costs back. SO at first the prices just raise and afterwards the whole economy collapses, you get almost nothing for your loot, etc.

[makarios68]

Money is a real problem for my poor little archer..

His 20 million gold gonna run out very soon... :D

[padreigh]

Trainingzone should be influenced by smth like that, live of lvl 1-11 is hard enough (got mentioned earlier I think).

Just another idea that crossed my mind, I think all this stuff
wouldnt be worth the efford. Im lvl 37, I buy like 5k arrows at once, if theyre 100kgold or 104000gold (rounded for nicer values, its more like 25k) wont matter to me. Its like 1 armordrop or 10-12 more mobs to kill to gain that 4% out of them again.

If you rise the values above those (8%,12% whatever) what will happen is easy: Ill check forts, if theyre ours, I buy, else not. I sure as hell wont go to capture 2 Forts to make a merchant deal to save me 10000 Gold if i need to battle that much for it (loosing money for arrows and repairs).

Im definatly Pro to solve things like Questbugs, MobKI, Animations and Sounds, MapWZEnhancements and so on. This one wouldnt even show on my Long long long term plans. Those other things mentioned influence my fun and gameplay, yours - as nice as those figures are and well honed the idea is - wont make me go to WZ more often or not and that is what you intended if I got you right.

[meldarion]

....wont make me go to WZ more often or not and that is what you intended if I got you right.

The intent of the idea was to create a handicap for the realm who has lost some of their forts and a benefit to the realm who has captured additional forts.

You have some very good points, thank you.

I would like to say that changes in the economic system are not possible unless some people are at a disadvantage. You have been crying out about archers having to pay for it. Yes, someone has to pay for it - because of the game design, its the archers.

That is the entire design of this economy idea - people are disadvantaged, so they go and change that by capturing forts. Then OTHERS are disadvantaged, so they go and try to capture forts. There is your power struggle that makes fort wars for a PURPOSE, rather than for kicks.

e30ernest - I really like your idea to make the percentage come in over time. I think that will be most fair to those who have fought and need to repair.

It also means that if you've neglected to look after your forts, you'll be disadvantaged, but if you take it back right away - everything is going to be fine.

[joeygannaio]

I like the idea a lot, it will really get the urge to capture more forts and castles now that its directly effecting the people of that realm. Also, combine that with the idea of if say, We were to capture all of Ignis' forts and castles, we are able to enter their inner realm, that would make the game insanely realistic. Also, we could capture certain inner realm towns, that could make the prices go up on their side, and down even more on ours. Anyway, I really like that idea and im gonna try to help you push for it all i can. Smiley

[NightTwix]

archers have the money problem anyway (at least some), with this system or without. That doesnt change.
but when the prices go up slightly noticable but not overly high, then its enough.
Its about the psychological pressure, not the actual loss in money that counts.
People might say "who cares about the few bucks, i dont need repairs now" but subconsciously they have the pressure cause they let the whole realm down when they dont fight for the fort

[chuckclose1]

The intent of the idea was to create a handicap for the realm who has lost some of their forts and a benefit to the realm who has captured additional forts.

You have some very good points, thank you.

I would like to say that changes in the economic system are not possible unless some people are at a disadvantage. You have been crying out about archers having to pay for it. Yes, someone has to pay for it - because of the game design, its the archers.

That is the entire design of this economy idea - people are disadvantaged, so they go and change that by capturing forts. Then OTHERS are disadvantaged, so they go and try to capture forts. There is your power struggle that makes fort wars for a PURPOSE, rather than for kicks.

e30ernest - I really like your idea to make the percentage come in over time. I think that will be most fair to those who have fought and need to repair.

It also means that if you've neglected to look after your forts, you'll be disadvantaged, but if you take it back right away - everything is going to be fine.



see thats my point

all this work and you are not creating any handycap for anyone butt low lvl's with no gold

they will not be able to do damage in the wz

people with gold will not care about such a small increase in prices
and quite frankly most players in the wz have plenty of gold

[Clonereject1138]

gold is not that important to me and alot of others

like i have about 4 mil gold and so do alot of others
so we could care less if prices go up or down 2-4%

now others in my clan and outside my clan , especially archer class
are going broke paying for arrows and repairs

so how would this system be fare to them

some dont need anymore gold and some do

i like the idea of captureing and loosing forts haveing more of an impact on the game
i defenately think something should be implemented to add to the importance of taking forts

butt affecting the econemy based on fort wars is not the answer in my openion


I've had a thought. How about price hikes and decresses proportional to

A the Character level (This will prevent those seeking to level up from suffering too much from the hikes, but at the same time from benefiting execivly from the works of the higher lvls)

B Realm points, or whatever. Pretty much, you participation in the war effort will earn you better prices than the grunt fresh out of the great wall.

C Taxes. :fury: Yes, we all hate taxes, but how realistic would that be? Also proportional to Realm and Character levels, I might keep the "gods" of battle from sitting on their gold for too long.

D With VAST sums of gold handed out to a conquering army, but only a small amout regained if a fort is retaken, this will make sieges more desperate. Methinks. There would have to be a 2 day limit before the forts coffers fill up again, and the city is ripe for the taking. The "value" of the fort would gradualy increase from the time of its capture till it reaches a maximum. Which should be HUGE For all those involved, massive rewards. Proportional to the importance of the fort, of course. A wooden pallisade around a few huts wouldn't earn near as much as a stone fort.


Just some thoughts on "incentive"

Perhaps prestige titles, "Hero of the Realm" and such things, along with uber equipment only handed out by the Realms leader to heros of the war.

And if immortality is your goal, how about your name, written by the Techies, in a "Hall of Fame" of the greatest Heros.

[chuckclose1]

I've had a thought. How about price hikes and decresses proportional to

A the Character level (This will prevent those seeking to level up from suffering too much from the hikes, but at the same time from benefiting execivly from the works of the higher lvls)

B Realm points, or whatever. Pretty much, you participation in the war effort will earn you better prices than the grunt fresh out of the great wall.

C Taxes. :fury: Yes, we all hate taxes, but how realistic would that be? Also proportional to Realm and Character levels, I might keep the "gods" of battle from sitting on their gold for too long.

D With VAST sums of gold handed out to a conquering army, but only a small amout regained if a fort is retaken, this will make sieges more desperate. Methinks. There would have to be a 2 day limit before the forts coffers fill up again, and the city is ripe for the taking. The "value" of the fort would gradualy increase from the time of its capture till it reaches a maximum. Which should be HUGE For all those involved, massive rewards. Proportional to the importance of the fort, of course. A wooden pallisade around a few huts wouldn't earn near as much as a stone fort.


Just some thoughts on "incentive"

Perhaps prestige titles, "Hero of the Realm" and such things, along with uber equipment only handed out by the Realms leader to heros of the war.

And if immortality is your goal, how about your name, written by the Techies, in a "Hall of Fame" of the greatest Heros.


now thats a step in the right direction in trying to make it of importance to all

but i still think it is a great idea just to much work on the ngd's

[Mersault]

Have been considering a number of ideas in a similar vein to this in another thread:
http://www.regnumonline.com.ar/forum/showthread.php?t=14833&highlight=trash

I agree entirely that there ought to be as much 'incentive' to participate in fort battles as possible. I like a lot of the economic idea's, things ought to be more expensive when you'r realms control over the warzone is weakened. A lot of the discussion above makes sense, and I also agree that care has to be taken to try and avoid making life too difficult for lower level players.

However I also hear the point that those at higher levels will naturally have a fair amount of money and as such, to those who need the encouragement, perhaps the effect of economic changes will be limited.

Other options for incentives were based around xp but again, many of those regularly fighting in the WZ will be level 50's and so xp will be no incentive. In fact there is only one incentive that I can see truly being able to push people into the forts and that is what everybody craves in the WZ: rp.

A token example of such an incentive could be, everybody who enters the fought within the first 10 seconds of the doors breaking down receives 5 rp (just some vague idea's off the top of my head), or even one based on length of time enemy fort/castle is held, say 1 rp per 5 minutes spent inside fort (would only last while player remains inside, thus encouraging fighting from within the fort/castle itself as opposed to normal practice which is a chaotic melee outside the door).

I feel that combining this with some of the other economic and other idea's posted above and in the above mentioned thread would provide enough incentive to make fort battles the norm, and the use of the fort itself as a strategic position more attractive.

Keep the ideas coming! The more we have the refined they will become and more they will make sense!

[Mersault]

I know that there will be a number of people who claim that rp should simply remain what you take and lose in specific PvP battles otherwise it will lose something of its importance, it wont be so much of an indication of an instance of you beating another player.

While some may see this as a loss of importance I would have to disagree, rp stands for Realm Point, and I think if it is incorporated into the holding of forts and castle's it will actually perform its function better! Namely as an indication of how the War is going! Currently it resembles more of a PvP leaderboard, good for egoists who like to show off but ultimately useless in showing the status of the RvRvR war that we are immersed in (which is surely what the game is all about!)

Again, just my opinion, but would make me value rp more for one! (and this is from somebody who still gets that warm glow every time I see 15 realm points gained!!)

[Clonereject1138]

There was a game called planetside, where, as a MMOFPS, people fought for one of 3 opposing armies, and, given the progress of their warring (on different servers) percentages were shown on the site for the success of yesterdays warwaging. A map also showed the area of influence each side held over the world.

Even if it wasn't really making people want to fight for country anymore, it would at least be cool to see how the war was going.


There's a funny "growing up" stage as you play the game.
You start as a happy go lucky little fella, all the way back on the initiation zone. The world is so different then when you're a grizzled veteran of the wars.

And for the super high levels, does the war waging even matter? After a while you have all the gear and equipment you could EVER need, your financially secure, and most things end up dying with relative ease.

What motivation is there for the high level? Boredome will set in, the only challenge comes from the other high levels from other realms, but what happens when the desire to be the best fades; when you defeated and been defeated, and used every strategy? What else is their to attain for ones self?

NOTHING!

And that is why they must expand the options for one to attain glory, not for ones self, but for ones REALM.

There must be a true expansion of a kingdom, there must be REAL victory, lasting triumph, and for the losers, defeat must be something to dread.

Defeat must be crushing, and if a realm cant expand PAST the great wall, as all other territories have been taken by the other realms, then they are in a desperate situation indeed. Imagine then (just suppose) that Ignis takes over all the land in the WZ.

Would it not be AWSOME if, because of their great victory, they are able to besiege a great wall?

The other two armies would have to form a truce, and while Ignis besiges Syrtis' wall, with tower, catapul and monster, over the hill rides Alsius! And the forces of darkness are routed (for a time) and then, while the combined forces fight them back, balance is restored, for a time. And so on and so forth.

But, say Ignis takes the wall before Alsius arrives. Perhaps then the armies of Syrtis are broken and flee from the onrushing hordes of vengeful Dark Elves, the Hordes of the Desert SHOULD be able to run rampant over the country, waltzing into villages, slaying NPCs, noncombatants, burning and pillaging. For one day, uninterupted slaughter, the green glades stained red with blood. After that, their terrible vengance satiatied, the hordes (are forced, by the Techies) to return to their own kingdom, Heroes.

Just tossing it out there, if only for causing a pleasant image of dying elves.

And, because who doesn't want to go medieval on a city, turning it into an abbatoir?


AND, if we aren't allowed to wage total war on the other realms, the a SERIOUS threat, like and ENORMOUS hoard of greenskins (orcs, goblins, ect) that has the slightly more advanced AI that attacks on sight, and moves en mass toward forts, towns, ect, slaugtering as it does so.


Perhaps realm specifice hoards. Alsius has a history with Aquantis, let's have the Aquantis REALLY do something, rather than just sit around, waiting to be killed.

Just somethoughts on getting REALMS involved.

Perhaps, if not the recognition of a individual's heroism, then a clans?


And perhaps, upgrading forts and things on the battlefield. For a price of 20 million gold pieces, that wooden fort can be give either

A A second layer of defences (wall withing a wall)
B Towers, with drastically increased ranges for archers and mages
C Upgraded fortress materials (wood to stone, re-enforced gate, ect)

Another thought, adding braziers to the walls would add a fire bonus to archers.

[chuckclose1]

Defeat must be crushing, and if a realm cant expand PAST the great wall, as all other territories have been taken by the other realms, then they are in a desperate situation indeed. Imagine then (just suppose) that Ignis takes over all the land in the WZ.

Would it not be AWSOME if, because of their great victory, they are able to besiege a great wall?
.

it is my understanding that if any realm takes both forts and castle of an enemy realm, they can breach the great wall and go into the cities


please correct me if im wrong

[Miraculix]

If i have understood things correctly, if a realm loses all 3 buildings then either:

a) The doors of the great wall open and everyone can go to the other realm

or

b) The doors are attackable, and once they fell too, THEN the realm is open to attack from other realms

either way, none if this has been implemented yet, but it is in the plans.

Would be extra cool to see some siege machines added in the game. To have epic sieges, like the minas tirith siege on lotr :metal: :P

[DkySven]

We got a problm with making an empic siege...

In an emic siege are huge armies. Far more then 1000 vs 1000. The record of people online is 687 people. WE should lure a lot of people to Regnum Online and then make a bigger War Zone with bigger forts. Then we can have epic sieges.

(btw, is it possible to merge this thread with Ideas for the War Zone thread?)

[lorddais]

I've had this discussion in game before and been told the ability to cross the great walls is npc rumor only, and that if it were true, whichever nation was first to conquer another nation would retain dominance indefinately as there would be no safe place for characters of the fallen nation to lvl before attempting a retake.

However I would propose that if we cannot go beyond the enemies wall they should suffer some sort of degredation for losing all their forts. Say if alsius conquered all three forts of syrtis or ignis it would snow in those nations until they managed to reclaim all three of their forts.

That could take awhile as even if alsius were routed from their holdings the weakened nation would still have to contend with the third party.

As a member of alsius if ignis took all of our forts and the sun went dark permanently eg. standing eclipse, I know I would take it as a slap in the face and want retribution.

I haven't thought of a suitable weather condition for a syrtis victory yet rain just isn't good enough need something more dramatic maybe thunderstorms with violent flashes of lightning that interfere with vision while trying to play?

The conditions should be strong enough that high lvl players can't ignore the nuisance of them. Lightning flashes, heavy snowflakes and longstanding darkness should be annoying enough visual impairments to merit a quick response.

edit: it should go without saying if you retake all your forts you return to normal weather patterns

[makarios68]

I've had this discussion in game before and been told the ability to cross the great walls is npc rumor only, and that if it were true, whichever nation was first to conquer another nation would retain dominance indefinately as there would be no safe place for characters of the fallen nation to lvl before attempting a retake.

However I would propose that if we cannot go beyond the enemies wall they should suffer some sort of degredation for losing all their forts. Say if alsius conquered all three forts of syrtis or ignis it would snow in those nations until they managed to reclaim all three of their forts.

That could take awhile as even if alsius were routed from their holdings the weakened nation would still have to contend with the third party.

As a member of alsius if ignis took all of our forts and the sun went dark permanently eg. standing eclipse, I know I would take it as a slap in the face and want retribution.

I haven't thought of a suitable weather condition for a syrtis victory yet rain just isn't good enough need something more dramatic maybe thunderstorms with violent flashes of lightning that interfere with vision while trying to play?

The conditions should be strong enough that high lvl players can't ignore the nuisance of them. Lightning flashes, heavy snowflakes and longstanding darkness should be annoying enough visual impairments to merit a quick response.

edit: it should go without saying if you retake all your forts you return to normal weather patterns

Some interesting ideas - but i prefer the idea of tying together fort capture and the economy.

That would really makes things interesting.

[lorddais]

sorry didn't mean to detract from the economy tie in this was meant solely as a solution to not being able to cross the great walls.

[NightTwix]

sorry didn't mean to detract from the economy tie in this was meant solely as a solution to not being able to cross the great walls.

no, its a great suggestion!
the economic punishment together with the visual effect. sounds great to me.

the invasion thing isnt just a rumour. Its an official feature that NGD wants to implement (for whatever reason)

http://www.regnumonline.com.ar/index.php?l=1&sec=27&subsec=1

[Miraculix]

actually I like the weather idea a LOT. Kudos for that, seriously

One tiny problem: What if syrtis won? How annoying can it be if alsius had spring time all day? :p But seriously, I would love watching the sky darken and getting all red and black colors, no sun in sight if ignis took over our forts and stuff. You'd have to explain that in the context of the game somehow, maybe each fort has a unique rune stone or something, that somehow control shit in your sizzle? :p

oh and Twix. I've seen it before, could you sum up and explain the reasons why you think the invasion is a stupid idea? or link me to a post. I haven't really been able to think of something so bad. Okey, it *could* potentialy suck for low levelers, but that would just make high level players from the losing side want to take their forts back. Eg, I'd hate my clan leader if he did nothing or didn't care that us low lvls got killed every day.

Like I said in another thread, maybe what should be done is make the *gate* conquerable once all 3 buildings have fallen. It'd be HELLISH hard to break through the gate, cause everyone from the inner realm could get up on the wall and fight against the invaders. Even if they are lower levels, when there's 60 guys lvl 20 shooting arrows at you, you dont have much of a chance even at lvl50. And there *will* be LOTS of ppl protecting the gate, almost all the inner realm would rush to protect it, and that's a lot of ppl. the way i see it, it would be practically impossible to break the gate. Also, you couldn't go in or out with all those invaders outside (hence no provisions, and the economic effects once you've lost all the buildings) so you'd have even more reason to drive them away, besides not letting them come in and eat you alive.

[Mersault]

I personally like the idea of the gates being breakable (provided all forts and castles are in the possession of an enemy!) however I agree it would have to be done carefully. If they fell and the door stayed open then this would clearly make life impossible for lower level players trying to level and as such would effect the balance in the game, however if you timed the period for which the gates were vulnerable then I think this idea could really work!

Imagine the gates becoming vulnerable for 1 hour, in that hour the gate must be attacked (against the efforts of every noob in realm and every experienced player on WZ side). If the gate did fall then the attackers would have the remainder of this hour to attack a city for example. At the heart of each city there could be a flag or whatever, just some kind of prize that went up on the leader board!

Now imagine the RvRvR aspect would evolve into each attempting to take trophies from inner realm cities? A new and more meaningful leaderboard for RvRvR than RP!

Set up in such a way it would take a monumental level of organisation to take a city, if it would prove possible at all! However in my opinion it would be amazing to see and to experience!

Blatantly such changes are a long way off but I really think the idea is workable!

[lorddais]

maybe if the populations of the realms by lvl were about even, but what about the instance I've read of recently where it took syrtis a few hours to route ignis from their forts? would you have all of syrtis laid bare for several hours? and what about a realm crippled by low population like alsius?

I would be willing to bet that being overrun even just a couple times even if its only for an hour a piece would be enough to drive noobs from alsius to whichever nation it was doing the raiding effectively crippling the balance of power in the game.

The strong will get stronger and the weak will get weaker because of the reactions of new players getting it handed to them by veterans. You will ruin the entire point of a safe training area. It may be fun for the veterans to have a new outlet but if you crush the newcomers you will kill the game community.

[Clonereject1138]

Well, then. The weaker nation would need an army of NPC guards.

And we need stuff to waste time with, wallpapers, buddy icons, forum banners, for ust to spread the superiority of our realm all over the internet!

Let the players do the advertising; there must be more patriotism.

[NightTwix]

oh and Twix. I've seen it before, could you sum up and explain the reasons why you think the invasion is a stupid idea? or link me to a post.


http://www.regnumonlinegame.com/forum/showpost.php?p=226042&postcount=19

my latest manifest ^^

from this thread: http://www.regnumonlinegame.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15754

[lorddais]

ty twix for understanding my point I still like my suggestion that in place of invading the enemy territory they should suffer visible degrading effects such as negative whether as a sign of their loss

[Miraculix]

players want this to be implemented cause they want to cause havoc and slaughter as much as they can. Thats what the people have in mind when they vote for invasions, they just dont have the balls to admit it


no no no, thats exactly the reason I like it, why would anyone hide that? :p

and jee, i never thought about the rest of your points... yeah now that I see it that could *potentially* suck. So how about instead of invasion, you get RULED by an enemy realm IF you lose your gate? pay taxes, maybe you have to defend your rulers forts as well (by enforcing the same economic penalties as when you lose your own forts)? Now that I read your post, mindless noob-slaying, as fun as it may be for high levels, it could ruin the game for new users.

[Clonereject1138]

Lol, unless you grant noobs a certain amount of XP for being killed by a uber high lvl player, for having the guts to stand up to him and be counted as a martyr.

Stupid, dead, but slowly gaining the gods' recognition.

Or, once again, have a NPC army, proportional to the Realms current population+lvl. 2 lvl 50s join, 4 lvl 25 NPC dissapear.

Or perhaps have a heavenly/demonic host shows up to aid the all too insuficient numbers desperatly attempting to repel the invaders.

Also, a 1 hour time limit per torn down great gate via all castles captured would keep the winning army from flaunting itself over the others for too long. They can only assail the gate once. Then, a castle must be captured and recaptured for the process to begin again.

Or some limit like that. Imagine the panic that would insue, "The Alsiusians are coming! Flee for the Begginers' section!"

Well, it doesn't hurt to dream.

[Malik2]

I read this in another thread.

How about if one realm conquers all forts, a merchant appears in one of them, and he sells hard to find or perhaps even unique items: amulets, rings, etc.

I don't think the noob murdering idea of, being able to knock down the gate to the inner realm would work. As three forts: Stone, Pinos, and Samal are close enough to saves that if they were not guarded by a large enough invading force, they would be retaken. I really doubt Syrtis could hold Samal or Pinos, along with the other two long enough and with enough people, and have a seperate force large enough to break through a forth fortification.

As far as I'm concerned give it a try, but I don't expect it to ever actually happen. How long has one realm held on to all the forts of another?

[magnet]

With the latest patch, people up to lv 49 are permanently in the safe zone. If invasion was implemented, what would it mean? Simply that the game is full PvP but that we have to "unlock" the zones. Yes that's sad for people grinding, but this is a MMORPG, persistent etc, that wouldn't happen everyday and that would be fun; I'm not even sure it would happen at all, but only knowing it could, people would try harder!!!! :clapclap:

[padreigh]

Simply that the game is full PvP but that we have to "unlock" the zones. Yes that's sad for people grinding, but this is a MMORPG, persistent etc, that wouldn't happen everyday and that would be fun

Newbies get scared, flee realm with low population. If worldtimezones meet in one realm they just invade really empty ones.

Newbies get slaughtered for RP.

...

Strong NO from me for opening inner Realms at all.

[NightTwix]

With the latest patch, people up to lv 49 are permanently in the safe zone. If invasion was implemented, what would it mean? Simply that the game is full PvP but that we have to "unlock" the zones. Yes that's sad for people grinding, but this is a MMORPG, persistent etc, that wouldn't happen everyday and that would be fun; I'm not even sure it would happen at all, but only knowing it could, people would try harder!!!! :clapclap:

yes i had the same thought. I'm (almost :p) sure that NGD did it intentionally and that is a likely reason.

[e30G]

Same here. I think moving the mobs was done in preparation for the realm invasions.

[Yttrium]

i like the idea of invasions, but twix does have a point. how about this:

syrtis invades alsius.
all alsius players can now /surrender syrtis, which would turn off pvp between that player and syrtians while in the alsius inner realm only.

surrenderring should have some penalties, like:

1. change the player's clan title to: Thrall of <realm> (maybe change the color to grey or something?)
2. base a realm-wide gold bonus/penalty on the number of thralls

once alsius takes back a fort, any thralls are freed.

[NightTwix]

i like the idea of invasions, but twix does have a point. how about this:

syrtis invades alsius.
all alsius players can now /surrender syrtis, which would turn off pvp between that player and syrtians while in the alsius inner realm only.

surrenderring should have some penalties, like:

1. change the player's clan title to: Thrall of <realm> (maybe change the color to grey or something?)
2. base a realm-wide gold bonus/penalty on the number of thralls

once alsius takes back a fort, any thralls are freed.

hahaha, you dont know Alsius.
not a single one of them would surrender.

Im not sure if my resistance against the invasions is still that strong.
NGD sees the big picture as usual.
But im sure it will be bugged big time and im still concerned that it will suck big time too

[DkySven]

We will never surrender! NEVER!

I think invasions will make it fun and there's always trafic on the roads, so in the inner zones there are always patrols. Players can coöperate too and travel in groups.

[Meiyeeer]

What if there was some sort of penalty for preying on noobs? realm points or something, because people look down upon killing the weak. although maybe no penalty if the weak attack first.

[misaccc]

if ure weak what r u doing in wz?if u dont wanna die dont go to wz

[Meiyeeer]

not in the wz, in an invasion. in wz, they get realm points as usual.

in the future, if all 3 forts and the gate are all taken, the attackers can then move on into the inner realm, right? it is only there that if they kill someone say, less than lvl 20 or so, they start losing realm points. that would discourage people from trying to get realm points off those who cant defend themselves. of course, if the weaker ones attack first, the conquerors dont lose any points.

[ncvr]

Initiation island and most likely other places will be safe zones. If newbs don't want to die, then they can just go to the safe zone.

[Meiyeeer]

eventually, they would need to go to the non-safe zones to buy weapons or get quests, and if they keep getting killed for cheap realm points (which shouldnt be allowed in the first place since it detracts from useful combat), they would get bored pretty quickly

[misaccc]

eventually, they would need to go to the non-safe zones to buy weapons or get quests, and if they keep getting killed for cheap realm points (which shouldnt be allowed in the first place since it detracts from useful combat), they would get bored pretty quickly

nah the gate wouldnt be open so long dont worry...

[Meiyeeer]

just throwing ideas around

[Malik2]

Hiding at Initiation Island really isn't an option for two reasons.

One is after lvl 13 or so there is nothing challenging in that area, so what is the point of hiding out.

Two, most lower lvl players won't know what the heck is going on to evacuate to a safer area.

[ncvr]

Kill Soras or Punzaz or Levias or The Rotten or Tankabon or whatever for fun.

And Meiyeeer:
That's the whole point...sheesh, why don't we make every city a safe zone then? Major lvling areas too...

[Meiyeeer]

once you get to a certain point, you can defend yourself. but those who just arrived in the inner realm from the initiation zone that are about lvl 10-15 arent quite sure what they're doing there yet. past that, sure, you get attacked, you get attacked. but below that is just slumming for realm points off people who didnt have a choice (in the war zone, if your stupid enough to go there when you're that weak...you deserve to be killed), which I dont think should be allowed in the first place.

all I'm saying here is, those who are truly defenseless against other realms and simply are not strong enough to do anything (unless some lvl 15ner comes charging through the warzone and into ANOTHER realm's territory) should be protected for a time. personally, I could get past lvl 15 within 3-4 days easily. but until then, you're still trying to figure out where the major cities are, how to use your subclass, and so on. subtracting realm points also only discourages slumming. it doesnt prevent them from doing it anyway, if some noob decides to be annoying.

as for making every city a safe zone...I know your sarcastic, but thats not what I'm trying to say. people should be attacked. this is a war game. but...people have to have a little leeway to learn as well. I'm all for penalties for losing. actually, the game is kinda boring without severe penalties...

[Ertial]

But defending the defenceless people is also a part of the job of warriors. In the Middle Ages woman and children also didn't fight, they depended on what their husbands and fathers did, and sometimes where useful with small jobs.
The higher levels are responsible for the lower levels, they have to assure that they can level up in peace, that's their job, defenders of the realm.

[Meiyeeer]

yes it is their job. but in the middle ages, people were not exactly encouraged to kill women and children. it violated honor, chivalry, all that.

[DkySven]

But people did violate woman and kill children. Middelages were not fun for them.

[Ertial]

We still have that kind of honour thing. The general mind is that killing low levels/raping and killing woman and children is bad but there are still some people who do it. (I know it's a bit a strange comparison)
Training in the warzone isn't safe either, even at lvl 40. The Inner Zone is smaller than the warzone and since it's guaranteed action it will attract a lot of people who want to fight against it. And of course you've got the city guards, if the are made more powerful and the merchants and other denizen start helping too it will be a lot safer in the cities. Maybe make real forts in the inner capitals so there is something to flee to. You could place lvl 10-15 or higher creatures in the castle park so low levels can continue to train.

[Meiyeeer]

We still have that kind of honour thing. The general mind is that killing low levels/raping and killing woman and children is bad but there are still some people who do it. (I know it's a bit a strange comparison)
Training in the warzone isn't safe either, even at lvl 40. The Inner Zone is smaller than the warzone and since it's guaranteed action it will attract a lot of people who want to fight against it. And of course you've got the city guards, if the are made more powerful and the merchants and other denizen start helping too it will be a lot safer in the cities. Maybe make real forts in the inner capitals so there is something to flee to. You could place lvl 10-15 or higher creatures in the castle park so low levels can continue to train.

true. and that'd be a great idea.

how about the saves by each city? what happens to them?

[ncvr]

true. and that'd be a great idea.

how about the saves by each city? what happens to them?
The saves should be attackable and when they are down you are automatically bound to the save in the second village in the initiation zone. We need harsher penalties, even if you got sent back to the start it'd be fine.

NGD also needs to work on debugging the guards - they need to be more intelligent and more powerful...their intelligence is the main concern though, some are already quite nasty now.

[Miraculix]

bumping this one, worth re-reading imo :)

[superdaveninja]

+1 if this game is gonna survive it needs to evolve.