Most overpowered class?

[ncvr]

Which class do you think is the most overpowered?

[mann2411]

warlocks in a way of how much damage they can do repeativly and keep you dizzied constantly and how they can get health from you but their health evens it out a couple of times i've being killed in pvp because he sulatared me straight away and followed it with meteor which makes it very very very hard to fight because half of your health is gone and his shields are still up

ps dont say hunters are overpowered we're not we can just get away easily

[sathilda]

Life stealing, overpowered crowd control like MoD and Terror, too much dizzy time available... warlocks indeed !

[ncvr]

If he sultar'd you straight away you'd do no better with a barb using lightning strike (more dmg and duration) then keeping you knocked down and dizzy with trip/feint, howl and jaw breaker. Still I voted marksmen due to their superior range, higher defense than hunters, more reliable defense than knights, and higher damage than warlocks. Their only downside is if they're confused, mind squashed or they're chasing someone.

[mann2411]

i disagree i find marksman to be very average with their dmg i still stick by warlocks dam dizzying people i'd like to see how well warlocks do in a fight without their powers not very i'd say

[ncvr]

1k dmg with DS + Arcane Strike on a lvl 50 barb is average?

Total 1.5k dmg or so (even higher on mages) with DS + Serpeant bite is average?

Btw...if you think a warlock without using any dmg spells won't be very powerful, go ask DM for a PvP with his staff mastery and a fast staff ;)

Besides it's not like you would do any better without spells :p

Barbs certainly would though :biggrin:

[Anpu]

will u let ppl express their opinion and stop arguing on every single post? it will only produce not taking part in this (imo stupid) thread

[Anpu]

your point is to get final word and be always smart. discussion with u is always endless and useless, many ppl (at least in inq) know that.
u take everything like assault on u.. relax, have a beer. :wiggle14:
u started thread with question/poll. ppl came here and posted what they think, they didnt come to argue with u, but to say what they think. no need to argue with every single poster just because u take it personal. :closed1:
but go ahead, enjoy. no more from me :)

edit: too excited while posting? u changed post 3 times already :)

[DkySven]

I voted for general archers. Not that they are overpowered, they are just at the moment the easiest class to play good with.

[makarios68]

will u let ppl express their opinion and stop arguing on every single post? it will only produce not taking part in this (imo stupid) thread

+1 for this.

A lot of what Necrovarus says makes sense, but he often says too much...and won't give alternative opinions room to breathe...

You ask people what class they thought was overpowered - let them speak...

[makarios68]

BTW i voted barb - very fast, very strong, wipe the floor with you at forts...

[makarios68]

BTW i'm intrigued in one way by this voting thread.

I expected hunters to race ahead and be voted easily the most overpowered class.

To my astonishment, this hasn't happened...

[Miraculix]

It's probably because they are NOT overpowered, they have a couple of things that make them dead annoying (scratch n run, sotw+camo, etc etc), but certainly not overpowered.

+1 to what sathilda(ontopic) and Anpu(offtopic) said.

[mann2411]

i agree with that

[Signatus]

Conjurors FTW

Not that they are "overpowerded" by themselves (although they can pawn almost every class at the arena), but they can make any other player trully overpowered in the battle field...

[magnet]

For some informed opinion (because not to be too critical, the English community is only showing they mostly play 1 class and call their "arch enemy class" overpowered), check the equivalent spanish poll (recent):

http://www.regnumonline.com.ar/forum/showthread.php?t=21507

Sathilda, Terror, life stealing, etc, is no use when all your spells are resisted. Yesterday at War I had all several of my terrors *completely* resisted whether it be by deflecting barrier or Protection Dome.

[mann2411]

i second signatus conjurers are so powerful at pvp if they become warjurers are so powerful

[ncvr]

Hunters aren't overpowered, they are just...

1)hated
2)annoying
3)easy to play

[One]

Poll question is incomplete. You don't specify in what is which class overpowered, fort wars, pvp, leveling....
But is true that warlock are overpowered in fort wars. Last time I played on Herbred for about 10 minutes, 9 minutes I was under dizzy. Why the fuck we have powers if we cannot use them? Dizzy is the most stupid thing in RO.

[ncvr]

Balance against other classes. PvPs, wars and smaller group battles. Not lvling, for lvling the answer is easy.

[sathilda]

Poll question is incomplete. You don't specify in what is which class overpowered, fort wars, pvp, leveling....
But is true that warlock are overpowered in fort wars. Last time I played on Herbred for about 10 minutes, 9 minutes I was under dizzy. Why the fuck we have powers if we cannot use them? Dizzy is the most stupid thing in RO.

I know what you mean... warlocks have meteor and silence, so infinite dizzy is possible ! Warlocks shouldn't have 2 dizzy spells.

Anyway we can steal/burn all our opponent mana, then use saddistic servants to "cancel" mana regeneration. And as we all know, no mana no skills, so no dizzy needed...

[magnet]

I know what you mean... warlocks have meteor and silence, so infinite dizzy is possible ! Warlocks shouldn't have 2 dizzy spells.

Anyway we can steal/burn all our opponent mana, then use saddistic servants to "cancel" mana regeneration. And as we all know, no mana no skills, so no dizzy needed...

Sathilda how I missed your bullshit "theoric" scenaris :wub2: :wub2:.

1) infinite dizzy doesn't exist. You cannot use dizzy over dizzy, so you have to wait for meteor to be over; then there is ALWAYS the time to cast an instant/very short casting time skill which is THE opportunity to change the course of the fight (i'll even be kind enough to tell you what spells: Knight: precise block, Barb: if you dont have unstoppable from the beginning, you deserve to die; Archer: SotW/Low Pro/DS/Mobility/Escapist/etc depending on setup; Mage: Silence/EB/Freeze/etc). If you cast a longer spell, it can be canceled by Silence, but then silence has to be timed so well (and the spell cast must be long) so there is almost no way to time it right (especially with lag). There are other techniques but they're not Dizzy and thus allow to cast protection buffs for each class or counter techniques. As for the "infinity" of that dizzy, even if it did work: Meteor lv 5 + Silence Lv 5 + Meteor Lv 5 = 33s, hardly infinite;

2) in the current state of the game, one of this skill is doomed to fail through evade/resist/block; or the second layer of resist Barbs use (unstoppable madness) or Conjus (Mind Blank, which unfortunately was nerfed) will have a dizzy resisted. The only *powerful* spell is MoD but this is a WAR spell, using it against 1 only adds up to lameness.

3) Mana burn has a high cooldown which makes the spell useful only on PvP, hunt and for warjurers.. and useless at WAR (= a Warlock's main job). Same for Energy Borrow and Saddistic Servants (I know that lately Warlocks find points for that spell but I wonder how they do).


Once again you are talking pure theory and this stuff does not work in practice if you skill for war or fighting other Warlocks. I had a LOT of PvPs against other Warlocks, even if they cast "meteor" first doesnt mean you die (quite the opposite in most cases, unless they also use a war skill like Terror on 1vs1 -- just as lame as MoD imho), NGD even made the system for bad warlocks with automatically casting spell when in range, and it became very difficult to cancel spells by going out of range (you now need a few meters instead of one).

Sathilda if you kill Hunters (which you said a few time to advertise Warlocks being overpowered) I very much doubt they're lv 50 and fully buffed. You kill Hunters with a lower level Warlock who do not take precautions because they think you'll be easy, that's all. When I was level 40 something and Saguenay lv 47-48, I did kill her a few times -- but she wasn't nearly evading/resisting as much as hunters now do.

I play other classes and I had PvP against lv 50 warlocks with them too (esp my Knight) and I ate them as soon as I dedicated a part of my skillset to fighting :).

[sathilda]

Sathilda how I missed your bullshit "theoric" scenaris :wub2: :wub2:.


Thanks :p So now let's practice, with a green lvl 50 marks, fully buffed, i was under DS (5) (he even casted SotW after some wild run! But wind wall is so awesome ^^) :
9010

For your information one hit =~ 600-700 HP in my face, so about 1/3 of my HP.

Unfortunatly, he had no more mana... no luck for him :sifflote: Even if you're right on many points (especially warlock vs warlock), i still disagree, i've just meteor and did the job. And 33s dizzy is quite huge huh ? So because sometimes we fight warlocks, all class should suffer from our 2 dizzy spells ? I don't think so !

And if they're enough stupid to underestimate me as a lowbie, then they're even noober than me ! More screenshots will come if i solo kill a 50 hunter... (and if i manage to enter the game too >_>)

[GIGO305]

if you know how to use them warjurers (also known as mages with somons) but mostly conjurers since we have been using somons for a while and preety much mastered them.

[magnet]

Thanks So now let's practice, with a green lvl 50 marks, fully buffed, i was under DS (5) (he even casted SotW after some wild run! But wind wall is so awesome ^^) :
9010

For your information one hit =~ 600-700 HP in my face, so about 1/3 of my HP.

Unfortunatly, he had no more mana... no luck for him :sifflote: Even if you're right on many points (especially warlock vs warlock), i still disagree, i've just meteor and did the job. And 33s dizzy is quite huge huh ? So because sometimes we fight warlocks, all class should suffer from our 2 dizzy spells ? I don't think so !

And if they're enough stupid to underestimate me as a lowbie, then they're even noober than me ! More screenshots will come if i solo kill a 50 hunter... (and if i manage to enter the game too >_>)

The screenshot doesn't show much (was he full life/fully buffed - truly?), but you know very well he expected you to be an easy kill so maybe he didnt fight you with full mana. Then again cerri nor anyone of "Vanguardia elf" are references ... and SK going through a fully buffed evading Marksman is sheer luck these days. We did some tests on Twix yesterday at Pinos (awesome test subject :p) and it really confirmed my mind (now Kritheo, Gpomal and Anpu aren't the only "Knight with range and some hits as high as a Barb" ; still makes me smile when I remember Twix' ramblings on Warlocks/Mages overpoweredness :D) Still nice feat for a lowly Warlock ;).

[Tyr]

Sathilda how I missed your bullshit "theoric" scenaris :wub2: :wub2:.

1) infinite dizzy doesn't exist. You cannot use dizzy over dizzy, so you have to wait for meteor to be over; then there is ALWAYS the time to cast an instant/very short casting time skill which is THE opportunity to change the course of the fight (i'll even be kind enough to tell you what spells: Knight: precise block, Barb: if you dont have unstoppable from the beginning, you deserve to die; Archer: SotW/Low Pro/DS/Mobility/Escapist/etc depending on setup; Mage: Silence/EB/Freeze/etc). If you cast a longer spell, it can be canceled by Silence, but then silence has to be timed so well (and the spell cast must be long) so there is almost no way to time it right (especially with lag). There are other techniques but they're not Dizzy and thus allow to cast protection buffs for each class or counter techniques. As for the "infinity" of that dizzy, even if it did work: Meteor lv 5 + Silence Lv 5 + Meteor Lv 5 = 33s, hardly infinite;

MOD + slow is 30 seconds or better of dizzy and few battles last that long. So yes infinite dizzy does exist....

[magnet]

MOD + slow is 30 seconds or better of dizzy and few battles last that long. So yes infinite dizzy does exist....

Didn't I address that? :) Btw MoD is easily countered. I know I don't mind it that much with my Knight.

[makarios68]

Hunters aren't overpowered, they are just...

1)hated
2)annoying
Really? I never knew that! :superpusso:


3)easy to play
A lot of people seem to think this but i don't think they are as easy to play as people believe.

More than any other char i've played there is a varied choice of set ups with hunter, and i have found it a struggle to chose the right one...

[sathilda]

MOD + slow is 30 seconds or better of dizzy and few battles last that long. So yes infinite dizzy does exist....

Yup, but Elrik and I are very well mannered... MOD in 1vs1 against non hunters suck. Even if it's something allowed by our class skills.

[magnet]

Yup, but Elrik and I are very well mannered... MOD in 1vs1 against non hunters suck. Even if it's something allowed by our class skills.

I don't use it against Hunters either. I used to do it when they used the previous SotW which allowed to cast damaging skills.. Now maybe I'd still do, but I don't play Warlock on hunt anyway. I like battles, not girl fights :p.

[Inkster]

Most overpowered class is easy, well, their more of a clan really with odd orange writing. Think the clan is called developer, buggers to try and kill

:wiggle14: BAAAH!

[jrlg23]

lol i always go to these threads and im being target lol..

warlocks- warlocks need the power they a slow class and not much of range(still range 30 spells) but nd should have not change wind wall to wat it is now i been hearing tons of complains about that

marksmen- well is kidna hard to say they have desent damage but also good deffence still is a offence class:nunchaku: my vote that marksmen deffence get drop by a bit

lol ok i just wanted to give my saying on my own classes:) now to the classes i dont like

hunters- honestly as long i been here i cant say they over powered. they just use there skills well and know wen to run wen needed. is most likly is cuz of stuff like this ppl say they overpowered.

knights- the tanks of regnum(if i can even find one who knows how to be on in ignis...other then feanor) they supost to take damage there deffence must be great since they got a weak attck...

barbarians- well this is a power house class in my book is a class that still not well balance to much power(but i dont complain about it not like some ppl do on warlocks dam u all!!!!!) but there power was already turndown a bit since they change thrust for blood.

anyways i didnt feel like reading the whole thread, i just read the first post so dont get all smart if someone said all this already ^^

[Arkenion]

I just really wonder if those people who say Warlocks are so overpowered have ever played one...

If you think so: Go make a lvl 50 warlock and look for sr maton. If you can get him at 90% health before he kills you, I'll be quiet.

The tricky thing is: Nobody will ever do that...

[jrlg23]

I just really wonder if those people who say Warlocks are so overpowered have ever played one...

If you think so: Go make a lvl 50 warlock and look for sr maton. If you can get him at 90% health before he kills you, I'll be quiet.

The tricky thing is: Nobody will ever do that...
lol there is many great lvl 50 warlocks but a warlock is a pain to play if u not use to slow characters:/

[LuthienNenharma]

I dont think that most of the people who are commenting here can say that a class is overpowered or not. There are just small balance differents like xp for a conjurer in group lvling or the marks who is able to cast low profile...

When I played my conjurer I got to know that Warlocks are very strong. I started with a warlock and got to know that they are strong but not overpowered.
- high cooldown
- slow speed
- dizzy means dead
- no playing without a group
- no spells for saving the life if you are in focus
- high casting time

You have to know how to handle a warlock. If not you will loose in every battle... again... and again...

And now I started playing with a hunter, she is still about lvl 20 so I cant say how she is in war but I bet that a hunter isnt overpowered too. I will write again when I played her in war and on a higher lvl.

[Arkenion]

lol there is many great lvl 50 warlocks but a warlock is a pain to play if u not use to slow characters:/
It's not about the speed. That's just mages, and it's fair. But it is not fair If 80-90% of all my level 5 spells arre not successfully on this guy. Note. He is marksman, doesn't use SotW and kills me in less than 10 seconds even if I have a barrier and wind wall..

[magnet]

It's not about the speed. That's just mages, and it's fair. But it is not fair If 80-90% of all my level 5 spells arre not successfully on this guy. Note. He is marksman, doesn't use SotW and kills me in less than 10 seconds even if I have a barrier and wind wall..

Welcome to the harsh reality. :)

And the worst part is: when it turns ugly they can use SotW or Low Profile. Now playing a Marks requires a lot of leet keep-your-range-manage-your-mana skills (except at war), but that's still overpowered.

PS: he isn't the only one with the setup. Alegna, Mahoney, Vincent Vega, Kritheo, Anpu, Gpomal, Tui, Nazgul (before) and the list goes on... and half of them (Maho, Alegna, Kritheo, Naz) agree it's too much. Some of them don't agree. Others remain silent :p.

[misaccc]

Knights!we have great damage good defence block alot...what more could you ask for?:p

[fluffy_muffin]

Knights!we have great damage good defence block alot...what more could you ask for?:p

speed and range ;p

[Arkenion]

Welcome to the harsh reality. :)

And the worst part is: when it turns ugly they can use SotW or Low Profile. Now playing a Marks requires a lot of leet keep-your-range-manage-your-mana skills (except at war), but that's still overpowered.

PS: he isn't the only one with the setup. Alegna, Mahoney, Vincent Vega, Kritheo, Anpu, Gpomal, Nazgul (before) and the list goes on... and half of them (Maho, Alegna, Kritheo, Naz) agree it's too much. Some of them don't agree. Others remain silent :p.
Yes that's why my vote went to marksmen without any doubt. Not to archers in general because marksman can handle more damage than a warlock besides their evasion..

[jrlg23]

It's not about the speed. That's just mages, and it's fair. But it is not fair If 80-90% of all my level 5 spells arre not successfully on this guy. Note. He is marksman, doesn't use SotW and kills me in less than 10 seconds even if I have a barrier and wind wall..
yea i know that the other day i ran in to tui and all my spells miss on him:/ no he didnt use sow just lot of elude spells and stuff anoying... like the person above said warlocks is a class u need to know how to handle or u die in a sec. warlocks are targets cuz they mostly in the frontline but they cant take many hits anyways

[magnet]

Same. Hunters are a pain because of the Evasion tree, but at least they don't do that much damage. They are precisely: a "pain". Marksmen are a "bane" ;).

[makarios68]

I voted barb, but if i could vote twice i would vote for marks too.

The acrobatic/strat position/evasive tactic thing is a bitch to penetrate...

Makes them like a knight but with bigger teeth...

[jrlg23]

I voted barb, but if i could vote twice i would vote for marks too.

The acrobatic/strat position/evasive tactic thing is a bitch to penetrate...

Makes them like a knight but with bigger teeth...
lol look who talking XD u know how anoying that evasion tree is on hunters on us?

[makarios68]

lol look who talking XD u know how anoying that evasion tree is on hunters on us?

Yes, i have had a lvl 50 warlock - my first ever char.

Sometimes i would beat hunters with him, sometimes they beat me - quite well balanced those 2 classes i'd say...

But what do i know? I'm only a lvl 12 noob Ignis hunter... :)

[magnet]

Yes, i have had a lvl 50 warlock - my first ever char.

Sometimes i would beat hunters with him, sometimes they beat me - quite well balanced those 2 classes i'd say...

But what do i know? I'm only a lvl 12 noob Ignis hunter... :)

Just a note Wudy; when you deleted Makarios it was not the same. The situation has changed since, now even Warlocks evade which is so stupid. I fought a Warlock earlier and she resisted, in a row, a normal hit, disable limb, and shield bash. She died anyway but that's plain stupid.

Now everyone has more evades/resist, because the formula changed. And previously, very few hunters used Evasion to level 19 -- so the situation has changed a lot since you last used your warlock. I remember when you said you had deleted him.

Yet, if Evasion was an Hunter-only tree, or if the spells were balanced in long bows, short bows and tricks, it would be a lot fairer.

[Arkenion]

Oh and PLEASE: Nobody quote me and say "steal their mana noob, so they cant hurt you", because this is such a bad argument since they evade energy borrow, vampirism, soulkeeper and servants just as well as any other spell.

[makarios68]

Oh and PLEASE: Nobody quote me and say "steal their mana noob, so they cant hurt you", because this is such a bad argument since they evade energy borrow, vampirism, soulkeeper and servants just as well as any other spell.

Those spells tag me plenty, i assure you...

[makarios68]

Now everyone has more evades/resist, because the formula changed.

If everyone has more resists/evades, then the rules are the same for everybody. So the change you mention applies to everyone. So i still think that warl and hunter are quite well balanced.

I'm not saying i like the changes, coz i don't. It makes the game too luck based and i'm not too keen on that.

A pvp between 2 hunters can be decided on whose tear apart hits and whose doesn't, even tho they have the same buffs cast. IMO that sucks.

It has been mentioned before, and i agree: i would like to see the game based on spells which hit whatever, rather than spells that might hit, depending on your luck...

This will probably never happen, because it would need a major overhaul of the spells each class has. For example, if a hunter can't evade the warlock's huge dmg - he needs better dmg spells himself...

[Envy]

Perhaps there could be spells that if resisted only do a % of the dmg, or still deal full dmg but not the status effect?

[magnet]

If everyone has more resists/evades, then the rules are the same for everybody. So the change you mention applies to everyone. So i still think that warl and hunter are quite well balanced.


On that point I agree, but on the next I made -- that Archers including Hunters did not use Evasion at such level back then, you see that's what makes the difference. The evasion a Warlock has is already too much imho, and an evasive Archer will evade 3 times the Warlock.


It has been mentioned before, and i agree: i would like to see the game based on spells which hit whatever, rather than spells that might hit, depending on your luck...

This will probably never happen, because it would need a major overhaul of the spells each class has. For example, if a hunter can't evade the warlock's huge dmg - he needs better dmg spells himself...

Imho the Hunter needs more combat controls spells and control over his pet which should have powers too. Ie your Ignean orc could have a dizzy spell while a snake could have a damage over time. A pet 1x level pet should have 1 spell, a lv 5x pet 5, which with different cooldowns (lv 50+ pets should have an area as last spell maybe). They would have their own mana and you'd have to manage both. That's how I always pictured Hunters. Petless hunters could still exist, but in anyway Evasion has to be changed if NGD expects class NUMBERS to be balanced - ie 1/6th of each class as active players across all realms. Now most Warlocks changed to other chars because the situation sucks.

A bit of history: this game has been "balanced" through empiric method, ie experimentation, tiny change, repeat. Most of it happened in the beta. However before a few month ago, no one used Evasion, so it has *not* been balanced. In beta, most Marksmen skills were disabled -- they were no real feedback. A few months ago, Confuse was bugged -- no feedback here again. The late change to the cooldown of Confuse is ridiculous since the skill makes Conjurers unable to play: no wonder why most of them stopped playing too (at least in Alsius).

I only hope that Megrim will look into it once NGD's reorg is finally in order.

[e30G]

Perhaps there could be spells that if resisted only do a % of the dmg, or still deal full dmg but not the status effect?

That's a possible solution. Damage spells can still get partial damage dealt if resisted, but should still be possible to evade. Status effects will still not work if resisted. Damage spells with status effects will deal partial damage when resisted but the status effect will not work (like the knock down spells with damage). Evaded spells will not deal either damage nor status effects.

However a solution such as this will still cause the game to need to undergo some massive re-balancing.

*Conjurer mode on: Allied buffs that adds to resists IMHO would need to be changed to spells that add to evades. :bananajoy:

[makarios68]

Imho the Hunter needs more combat controls spells and control over his pet which should have powers too. Ie your Ignean orc could have a dizzy spell while a snake could have a damage over time. A pet 1x level pet should have 1 spell, a lv 5x pet 5, which with different cooldowns (lv 50+ pets should have an area as last spell maybe). They would have their own mana and you'd have to manage both. That's how I always pictured Hunters. Petless hunters could still exist, but in anyway Evasion has to be changed if NGD expects class NUMBERS to be balanced - ie 1/6th of each class as active players across all realms. Now most Warlocks changed to other chars because the situation sucks.


Seems like a lot to implement, but sounds good...

[magnet]

Seems like a lot to implement, but sounds good...

Only because NGD is coding with one finger ;).

[Lovele]

damn i voted on hunter I wanted to vote on barb

[fluffy_muffin]

[...]
The late change to the cooldown of Confuse is ridiculous since the skill makes Conjurers unable to play: no wonder why most of them stopped playing too (at least in Alsius).

How old is this spell? And suddenly now it is not ok?

[sathilda]

How old is this spell? And suddenly now it is not ok?

Not suddenly. Since hunters play smarter ;)

[ementh]

I always said I'd be happy to replace confuse with a true dizzy spell that has shorter duration....every class has one but the hunters themselves don't have one. Confuse is an all archer skill.

[fluffy_muffin]

Not suddenly. Since hunters play smarter ;)
And some of the marks. And this spell is not a problem. The problem is somewhere else but no one want to look at it :>

[sathilda]

And some of the marks. And this spell is not a problem. The problem is somewhere else but no one want to look at it :>

You should look first at your orc who have difficulties to target ennemies ;) There is no problem with hunters !

[fluffy_muffin]

It was discussed in confuse thread and i don't want to back to that.

And i don't have problem with my pet. It is like it is and it is fine.

[makarios68]

I always said I'd be happy to replace confuse with a true dizzy spell that has shorter duration....every class has one but the hunters themselves don't have one. Confuse is an all archer skill.

I have said this too, right from since when i first started playing hunter.

I'm not a great fan of confuse...

[magnet]

How old is this spell? And suddenly now it is not ok?

The spell is about 6 months old and has never been ok. But it became a pain when archers discovered about it.

It was previously bugged so it was never tested in beta.

[tui_syrtis]

i belive that all classes have their strengths and weaknesess, it all depends on the powers u use, how and when u use them....

all classes are equal to me !!!

:closed1:


Tui lvl 50 Alturain Marksman

[mann2411]

if warlocks couldn't steal my health they wouldn't be overpowered but they can they can also steal half of my mana waaay to easily

[ncvr]

Our health drain makes up for our lack of defense. We can drain up to 1.6k if we're lucky, usually more like 1.5k. My lvl 31 hunter's defensive spells stop up to 2 - 2.5k dmg from a marksman I fought in the arena. With recharged arrows and a medium bow, I tok 60 - 80 dmg from his normal hit (acrobatic + evasive tactics lvl 4), 11 dmg per tick from lvl 3 serpeant bite and resisted a total of 5 spells (Spell elude lvl 4). Warlocks are an offensive class so it's okay they get a little less defense than that, but just pointing something out. (Btw I won the PvP with over half health both times :D)

[ljwolfe]

1k dmg with DS + Arcane Strike on a lvl 50 barb is average?

Total 1.5k dmg or so (even higher on mages) with DS + Serpeant bite is average?

Btw...if you think a warlock without using any dmg spells won't be very powerful, go ask DM for a PvP with his staff mastery and a fast staff ;)

Besides it's not like you would do any better without spells :p

Barbs certainly would though :biggrin:

funny, i maxxed ds and arcane strike. IF i hit, i don't get anywhere near that damage... except maybe on level 20s.

[Angelwinged_Devil]

overpowered doesn't nescesarily mean kill everyone very fast.

archers general. Statements have been raised already, I won't repeat what has been said

[Angel_de_Combate]

I cant kill barbs...lol.. Its me, is fecking easy to me..but i still cant kill him (feels like a noob, looks down feeling ashamed) :mf_hide:

[Angelwinged_Devil]

I cant kill barbs...lol.. Its me, is fecking easy to me..but i still cant kill him (feels like a noob, looks down feeling ashamed) :mf_hide:
*pets skatz*

oh and btw a warlock is NOT overpowered, if you can't handle a warlock, go cry in the corner, if the warlock uses wind wall he's a noob who choses to rely on luck :)

[Angel_de_Combate]

Meconopsis is a Marks...lol ahhh dumb ass me...you mean you petted me...crap..<purrs loudly>...need more coffee...

[Valorius]

I voted Barbs.

To me, Warlocks aren't that hard at all. A 'defensive' marksman is MUCH more challenging than a Warlock.

[mann2411]

as anpu stated before let me have my opnion
what makes up for mages defese and health how much more spells they can have compared to every other class not the spells themselves. look how much damage warlocks can do people think of lvl 5 sultars terror now has anyone had about 2 warlocks cast them one after the other? instant death for a whole army. also look at the survey look how many voted for warlock. if a warlock keeps any class under dizzy what can we do? little thats what no spells and little damage, no escaping, hell if its a good warlock no moving even. a warlock can kill the faster, do the most dmg with spells, steal health, steal mana, have a pet, get mana from nowhere, protection a warlock can do SO much

[Valorius]

lvl 5 spell elude is warlockicide.

[Angelwinged_Devil]

as anpu stated before let me have my opnion
what makes up for mages defese and health how much more spells they can have compared to every other class not the spells themselves.

a warlock needs mana and spells, he can't use his staff. If he has no mana he's dead, he's like a mob who throws some small shots at you., dizzy and he's dead, it's the only class you can keep dizzied and be sure to win (mages generally) if you generalize and don't speak about buts and exceptions

look how much damage warlocks can do people think of lvl 5 sultars terror now has anyone had about 2 warlocks cast them one after the other? instant death for a whole army.

that's not because warlocks are overpowered, what happened to the marksmen who tanks instead of acting offensive (noobs?) Who can stop a warlock from casting sultars and still be in safety from any of his spells-

also look at the survey look how many voted for warlock. if a warlock keeps any class under dizzy what can we do? little thats what no spells and little damage, no escaping, hell if its a good warlock no moving even. a warlock can kill the faster, do the most dmg with spells, steal health, steal mana, have a pet, get mana from nowhere, protection a warlock can do SO much
the biggest group is not always right

[Angel_de_Combate]

I voted Barbs.

To me, Warlocks aren't that hard at all. A 'defensive' marksman is MUCH more challenging than a Warlock.

Me too and i concure with you...marks are way harder..evade evade evade

[magnet]

I'm amazed when looking at the results to see that people just voted for the "anti-class" of their own class. Hunters vote Barbs, Warlocks and Expers vote Hunters, some crazy people voted Conjurers(?!), low-levels and some Conjurers voted Warlocks (and those who're lv 50 in the Warlock vote make me laugh), and those who play more than one char voted Marksman/General Archers.

Twix's idea about a lv 50 forum only isn't that bad -- how about a forum "at least 3 levels 50" ;).

PS: I do think Barbs are a *bit* overpowered, but only because unstoppable madness + DI makes them totally unstoppable; that there are only, in that case, 3 spells that can cancel their areas and require lot's of timing and too many risks in most case... One solution would be that DI is inactive if unstoppable madness is active... I also prefered the old Onslaught, the new one is good against Hunters but unnecessary fast. South cross and Ripost should be capped because those barbs hits are ridiculous (2530 the other day on my Conj, I had 2k hits on my Knight +10% resist Slashing) but it shouldn't affect Knights who already have low attack, and are along with Marks the most unbalanced class, but at the other end of the spectrum...

[urgit]

I voted Maskmen. They have the second best defence in the game, the second most powerful attacks in the game, and the highest range in the game.

[Angel_de_Combate]

<Raises eyebrows a cm...>

[Angelwinged_Devil]

PS: I do think Barbs are a *bit* overpowered, but only because unstoppable madness + DI makes them totally unstoppable; that there are only, in that case, 3 spells that can cancel their areas and require lot's of timing and too many risks in most case... One solution would be that DI is inactive if unstoppable madness is active... I also prefered the old Onslaught, the new one is good against Hunters but unnecessary fast. South cross and Ripost should be capped because those barbs hits are ridiculous (2530 the other day on my Conj, I had 2k hits on my Knight +10% resist Slashing) but it shouldn't affect Knights who already have low attack, and are along with Marks the most unbalanced class, but at the other end of the spectrum...
one word: mind push level 5 :) plus mod(unless unstoppable madness.) wind wall will reduce their speed to nothing and mod will prevent them from crushing your teammates.

[magnet]

one word: mind push level 5 :) plus mod(unless unstoppable madness.) wind wall will reduce their speed to nothing and mod will prevent them from crushing your teammates.

Did you read the part about DI? :tsk_tsk:
I used Mind Push high level when your warlock was still a baby.

[Static_Fang]

I dont think any class is OVERpowered.
But i voted warlocks cause we are POWER itslef ^^

No class is overpowered IMHO

[Angelwinged_Devil]

Did you read the part about DI? :tsk_tsk:
I used Mind Push high level when your warlock was still a baby.
yep, I did

[magnet]

yep, I did

Okay so your comment was willingly irrelevant, thanks for the input :closed1:

[_dracus_]

I dont think any class is OVERpowered.
But i voted warlocks cause we are POWER itslef ^^

No class is overpowered IMHO

I agree with you.

[judeau]

I dont think any class is OVERpowered.
But i voted warlocks cause we are POWER itslef ^^

No class is overpowered IMHO

Have you played with a barbarian or a marksmen? They skills make more damage in less time and their deffense is highter, think about it.

I have voted marksmen. They have the power that i want to my warlock.

[misaccc]

Have you played with a barbarian or a marksmen? They skills make more damage in less time and their deffense is highter, think about it.

I have voted marksmen. They have the power that i want to my warlock.

warlocks can get their hp and mana back and i think they have most area spells...if that aint enought for ya play a knight^^

[magnet]

warlocks can get their hp and mana back and i think they have most area spells...if that aint enought for ya play a knight^^

Man don't show your ignorance like that, Marksmen have more areas; getting Hps back 1 time by min with so few chance on enemy players that reasonable Warlocks use it on mobs most of the time (so it's just a shitty "heal self), and mana is cool, but that's a mage trait, and at war mana is not a problem.

And I do play a knight.

Btw Zelgg is a balance team member, maybe he does know what he's talking about more than you? Not that being balance team member grants any absolute truth, but at least the private knowledge restricted to the team's board and more chance that your voice will be heard by Megrim...

Myself I find that it's normal that Barbs deal more damage than Warlocks and that their defense is OK. I think Marksmen have defense as good or better than Knights (fortunately not as many HPs), best attack with Barbs & best range so... that's another level altogether.

[misaccc]

Man don't show your ignorance like that, Marksmen have more areas; getting Hps back 1 time by min with so few chance on enemy players that reasonable Warlocks use it on mobs most of the time (so it's just a shitty "heal self), and mana is cool, but that's a mage trait, and at war mana is not a problem.

And I do play a knight.

Btw Zelgg is a balance team member, maybe he does know what he's talking about more than you? Not that being balance team member grants any absolute truth, but at least the private knowledge restricted to the team's board and more chance that your voice will be heard by Megrim...

you can get your hp twice and that aint such a slim chance...i get hit with soulkeep ALL the time....and btw i said "i think" they have most areas...the knight comment was a joke....

Have you played with a barbarian [.....] They skills make more damage in less time and their deffense is highter, think about it

but this....this is crap...barbs dont have range...they are supposed to do most damage if i read the description right...

and yes i agree about your marks comment...

[magnet]

you can get your hp twice and that aint such a slim chance...i get hit with soulkeep ALL the time....and btw i said "i think" they have most areas...the knight comment was a joke....


OK first you have to put points in those skills; let's say you do. You have 500 hps every 30s, plus 1000 hps every min. Nice on the paper -- but you need to lack those hps to cast the skills or they'll be wasted. So you can cast Vampirism first when you hit 2k (that takes about 0.02sec in war), but it's a range 20spell, you can't cast it or you'll die. So better off with conjs. Now with SK, it's range 25 and you can cast it and somehow keep your range, but you keep it as a rescue, and i'll tell you, those 1000 hps you gain you loose them as soon because when someone sees an injured Warlock, they go for the kill. So you cast SK and you die after. If you're unlucky which is 50% of the time, you got the spell resisted/blocked/whatever (be it aura, or self buffs). 40% of the time, the hp draining lags back 3s after you casted the spell, and you die not ever getting the HPs even if you see in the log "drained 1000 hps". 10% of the time you get the hps, and maybe you can survive. This spell is so overrated. When a Warlock casts it on my knight, if it's 1vs1 or small fight I don't care at all since that means they lost SK+500 mana, and that makes them extra easy to finish. And if they cast it to me when they're 15 and we are 5 (happens often), it makes me mad because the odds weren't good; but heh that's life.

Try playing a Warlock you'll see. You can kill when the situation is in your favor. When it's not you're first target and you die almost immediately if you're not careful.

[misaccc]

i did play a lvl50 warlock in war and 1on1s
and i know how easily you die...SK i dont see beeing used in war alot and i was talking about 1on1(yes i know this is a RvR game)...anyway my point is that you are the only offensive class that has the chance to get your mana and hp back...

[magnet]

i did play a lvl50 warlock in war and 1on1s
and i know how easily you die...SK i dont see beeing used in war alot and i was talking about 1on1(yes i know this is a RvR game)...anyway my point is that you are the only offensive class that has the chance to get your mana and hp back...

And also the offensive class with offensive spells having the highest costs (magma blast = 380mana, SK = 500 +, etc), and which deals all damage through spells so everything costs mana.. My point is you don't seem to see the greater picture here.

[Tyr]

And also the offensive class with offensive spells having the highest costs (magma blast = 380mana, SK = 500 +, etc), and which deals all damage through spells so everything costs mana.. My point is you don't seem to see the greater picture here.


You also have the largest mana pool and a way to recover it in 3 ways... steal it, sacrifice hp for it, or communion with it. There are a few marksman spell that cost in the 500 and with a smaller mana pool you dry quickly... Warlocks are not the only class with mana problems.

[CumeriTarenes]

And also the offensive class with offensive spells having the highest costs (magma blast = 380mana, SK = 500 +, etc), and which deals all damage through spells so everything costs mana.. My point is you don't seem to see the greater picture here.


and also the offensive class with most mana, highest mana generation and only offensive class with ability to get steal mana/get mana back.

You see, all is balanced...

There is no most overpowered class, that's why I did not vote.

It depends on the situation and setup, which class has advantage and which not.
But, to the great picture...I think only NGD sees the great picture (at least I hope they do). They are having calculations about spells, mana and hp amount, they are knowing exactly how game mechancis work etc.

Remember, this is just a poll, everybody should just vote how she/he thinks about it. When you argue here about details it will most probably influence people's choice which class to vote. When you want a serious poll you should disallow comments about it, you should ask a question in a more detailed way and you should give options for people to vote nothing at all.

[octopus]

The late change to the cooldown of Confuse is ridiculous since the skill makes Conjurers unable to play: no wonder why most of them stopped playing too (at least in Alsius).

The Confuse spell is the primary reason I lost interest in playing my conjurer, and why I now play about 1 hour a week instead of 20. In one quick spell, a hunter can render a support conjurer utterly useless for 40 seconds, an insane amount of time in battle. Confuse is the one spell that the recently nerfed Mind Blank does not protect against. The only defense is to have a second support conjurer constantly keep Divine Intervention cast on you, which really is not realistic.

Of course I could change my setup to be a warjurer so I could cast a couple of crappy damage spells, but at the cost of making a far less effective conjurer overall.

[magnet]

and also the offensive class with most mana, highest mana generation and only offensive class with ability to get steal mana/get mana back.

You see, all is balanced...


That's my whole point. Thanks for enforcing open doors :)

[fluffy_muffin]

40 seconds, an insane amount of time in battle.
If he have tricks on 19 and if other conj are dumb and don't use DI.


The only defense is to have a second support conjurer constantly keep Divine Intervention cast on you, which really is not realistic.
Many times at Stone it was hard to find someone without DI in ignis troops. So it can be done.

[DkySven]

Warlocks are not overpowered vs knights. They lack speed, while knights have spring and blocking. I could kill a level 50 warlock just by blocking his spells at level 41(ok it was a greens, but still...). Keep precise block up and warlocks will be piece of cake.

At the other hand, archers are much harder. They have a lot of speed, range and decent damage to very high damage(marskman). Warlocks have range but can't keep up with them and knights have not enough speed. Only not-archer with enough speed to catch a hunter is the barbarian.

[judeau]

The power of steal life and mana isn't as good as archers and warriors think. To use it the warlock must hasn't this life or mana. If you are fighting against a warrior when you can steal life the warrior has won you range lvl and in mele you wont be able to cast a 2 second skill; in close range the warrior will kill the warlock yes or yes, he hasn't any chance. There aren't easy skills to use.

The warlock has another great problem: how to kill an enemy if your skills don't hit the enemy? A Knight can beat an enemy without skills (hight deffense and not bad damage), a Barbarian the same, the hunter with pet, the conjurers whit their invocation, and the marksmen; only warlocks can't (and yes i have tried to fight with Staff Mastery, DM isn't the one).

Skills areas the warlock used to use 2 Master of Doom (an aura skill) and Terror, but skills areas of the warriors make more damage and they hasn't bell effect (as warlock's areas).

I repeat my ideas: Marksmen, marksmen and marksmen. The best range, a great damage and a great deffense (they have Evasión, the best branch of the archers).


P.D. Sorry about my poor english, i'm triyng to improve it.

[ljwolfe]

Marksmen have a tough time dealing with 100% arrow block. I fought an "unchallenging" knight yesterday who almost killed me. He got the jump on me so I couldn't start from range - my fault, i was running from someone else. I had a run of 10 blocked shots in a row, then later in the fight another 12 blocked shots. He also knew what he was doing, running through me a lot and starting off with a knockdown. I eventually killed him by sprinting to range and letting mana build, but I was lucky that no enemies were around. The fight took around 3 min.

Long story short, depends on the situation.

[mann2411]

yes awd marksman can reach warlocks before they get within a warlocks range but consider how fast marksmen loose their mana if they use a few damaging spell now consider how much mana warlock has if they use a few hundred damaging spells all of it.

ok i'll consider the view from a warlock
"hmm theres a hunter coming up here i'll just put up a barrier so i can be hit for basically twice as much"
"i know i'll meteor him that'll do a hell of alot of dmg and make it so he cant cast any spells"
and then
"o i know i'll steal his mana that will severly reduce the amount of spells he can do by about half"
and then
"o jeez ill just hit him with another couple oif hundred spells cause i can cause i dont run out of mana and if i can keep him dizzyed and knocked out i can win this battle without him ever getting through my shield"
and then
"o god what do you know he's dead and he didn't even break my shield stupid lvl 50 hahahahahahahahahaha"

im so sick of you warlocks always complaining about how hunters are overpowered when you are clearly the ones overpowered:mad:

[tak]

I only played a warlock for a long time, and lots of arguments here are well known to me. Playing only one class on a high level gives you a very very narrow view.
Now i have played four high level (40-50) chars from different classes and my view of balance has completely changed.

Everybody who has only one class should go play another before opening his mouth on balance issues. You don't know anything and you only make fools of yourselves.

Seriously.

[magnet]

I only played a warlock for a long time, and lots of arguments here are well known to me. Playing only one class on a high level gives you a very very narrow view.
Now i have played four high level (40-50) chars from different classes and my view of balance has completely changed.

Everybody who has only one class should go play another before opening his mouth on balance issues. You don't know anything and you only make fools of yourselves.

Seriously.

Hear hear, this man speaks wisdom. :beerchug:

[LuthienNenharma]

Hear hear, this man speaks wisdom. :beerchug:
Yea, maybe no one red my post, but I said the same.
Its a good opinion.

[Angelwinged_Devil]

[..]
umm? Sorry but I don't get you, I'm asking what the hell their marksmen are doing, and they should stop tanking. A marksman can stop a warlock from casting sultars terror while the warlock can't even hit the marksman with one spell.

clearly the ones who are overpowered? Nah not really, try to take archers general and add it to marksmen or hunters ;). Mostly pts are complaining because they can't take down a warlock, when you fight a warlock and don't use luck spells it's all up to your mind and strategy.

[mann2411]

awd there is no stratergy involved within regnum i have told you this countless times regnum no stratergy its based on luck wheter your spells hit or not ah screw it whats the point you never listen:mad:

ps during pvp warlocks only have to move what a couple feet to get to a marksman

[Valorius]

Comment to AWD: Did you read the part about DI? :tsk_tsk:
I used Mind Push high level when your warlock was still a baby.
You would think that with all that practice you would have progressed beyond a mediocre player by now.

LOL.. guess not.

[Angelwinged_Devil]

awd there is no stratergy involved within regnum i have told you this countless times regnum no stratergy its based on luck wheter your spells hit or not ah screw it whats the point you never listen:mad:

no wonder you suck when you think there's no strategy XD J/K
no seriously, you tell me there's no strategy and that it's the truth, does this sound a little like hell bound? You say I don't listen, you make no sound you write, also I read what you write, but I don't agree with you.
there's strategy in:
the way you setup your char
what equipment you chose to wear
the combos you do
the priority you cast your spells
the order you cast your spells
whne you cast them
which spell you chose to cast in certain situations.

if your choises are completely random then you are playing completely on luck.

ps during pvp warlocks only have to move what a couple feet to get to a marksman
but pvp is irellevant during a big fight with groups which is what I'm talking about, why do you mention pvp?

[Inkster]

i still think that class known as developer is waaaaay overpowered :wiggle14:


Baaah!

[Angelwinged_Devil]

i still think that class known as developer is waaaaay overpowered :wiggle14:


Baaah!
I agree, fucking developers, they kill me all the time, NERF THEM NERF THEM NOW

edit: valorius I don't know if you're talking to me or not, but you are on my ignorelist, there's nothing to learn from you anyway

[Valorius]

I only played a warlock for a long time, and lots of arguments here are well known to me. Playing only one class on a high level gives you a very very narrow view.
Now i have played four high level (40-50) chars from different classes and my view of balance has completely changed.

Everybody who has only one class should go play another before opening his mouth on balance issues. You don't know anything and you only make fools of yourselves.

Seriously.
Typical elitist view.

[tak]

Typical elitist view.
True nonetheless.

[Inkster]

i agree actually, i made several different classes, and lvled em to around lvl 46 to see their weaknesses, it gave me a good insight as a warlock into what effects the other classes the most in combat (i did this as i wanted to experience first hand the weaker side of each class)

[mann2411]

a) yes i suck im a pt the difference between me and you i know it
b) true but if those spells are supirior in every way to other classes which gives them an unfair disadvantage.
c) i aint argueing screw the forums i hate it here now all you people ever do is argue and never listen to each other and consider the other points of views and dont say you cant see what im doing awd cause i hear what your saying. what i've learned from the forums is that everyone thinks their class is fine but everyone elses is overpowered. what i've learned is that having an opnion gets you yelled at, saying what you know is true gets you yelled at, hell being happy gets you yelled at, screw the forums and screw those that don't listen eg angelwinged devil

[Valorius]

True nonetheless.
I'm sure you think it is. Like most elitists.

Ive formed my opinions based on thousands of battles with every class of every level, and in leading a guild with every class in the game, of every lvl. And endless discussions in guild chat, and here, about the strengths and weaknesses of every class, and every build, of every class.

If you don't think that's enough to form a sound opinion on the matter, well, lol...i don't really care.

[tak]

I'm sure you think it is. Like most elitists.

Ive formed my opinions based on thousands of battles with every class of every level, and in leading a guild with every class in the game, of every lvl. And endless discussions in guild chat, and here, about the strengths and weaknesses of every class, and every build, of every class.

If you don't think that's enough to form a sound opinion on the matter, well, lol...i don't really care.
You care enough to post it seems.

There is a difference between talking about other classes and playing them.
I too have done all the things you did and then i went and made other chars and guess what? It actually makes a difference. Go and try it yourself.

[fluffy_muffin]

[...]
There is a difference between talking about other classes and playing them.
f.
Do you play every subclass all the time? You lvled all of them to 50 by yourself? Did you tested all setups for them? All type of fight? With different party configurations?

[CumeriTarenes]

with the words a wise man told me:

it matters not to me on what the classes are, the powers available are pretty equal, what most people forget is ngd made the powers but they cannot control the actions of the people who play


For me there is no overpowered class at all. A class may seem overpowered in a certain situation, but in another situation this class sucks. That is what makes the game interesting. Imagine we would all play the same class. There would be no balance issues...but it would be pretty boring i guess.

Just because you cannot handle to beat another class does not mean it is overpowered. In an other situation or/and with another setup or/and with another strategy you will be able to win. The only problem I see at the moment is the lag which makes people go hunting. And in open field hunters rule. Would there just be fort wars people would say other classes which are mainly designed for fort wars are overpowered.

[Valorius]

You care enough to post it seems.
Only to invalidate your elitist view.

[_dracus_]

It's easier to know the pros and cons of a class if you are playing it. So yes, playing different class can help players to understand the game. But as Valorius stated it, you can learn, just watching at the others. There is no reason to be elitist. People can learn the way they want. In the end you'll respect people which gave you precious advices, not because of their number of char neither because of their levels.

[tak]

Do you play every subclass all the time? You lvled all of them to 50 by yourself? Did you tested all setups for them? All type of fight? With different party configurations?
Yes of course. /sarcasm

Apart from marksman i have played all classes, in war and when leveling. I tested if not all then a lot of setups.

The point is when talking about balance you have better insights, for example how often certain spells miss (for you as a hunter take ambush for example) or how you have to move or how you have to work with your mana or which spells sound great on paper but actually not do anything etc etc.

In short, all the little things that you only find out about when you play yourself and that really make up the balance.

[DkySven]

Well, in thank case we should ask Zebedee. He has every class above 40, 3 of them 50, one 48 and one 45. Hey zeb! Could you post here? :)

[mann2411]

what really annoys me is that people say how overpowered hunters are yet they can't take it when we do it to their class.

also in this case numbers are right thats why the whole survey was made

[ncvr]

Okay, I'm away for 2 days and all this shit has polluted this thread...

1) Marksmen have a 15m advantage. That is A LOT. 5m is a lot too...
2) If you can't take an arguement then you should leave the forums. It's all that happens in development threads.
3) Knights have an advantage against marksmen.
4) Lvl 5 Sultars' Terror does 400 dmg on a hunter buffed with lvl 4 evasion spells.
5) Lvl 5 Meteor does less than that.

I may not have a high lvl on my hunter, but I use the defense of some lvl 50s and I know how good it is. I've seen a lot of resists and evades with Spell Elude and Dodge which would be unachievable on a warlock. Warlocks are not overpowered but hunters are not either. Like Zelgg, I think a Marksman has it the easiest in most situations because of the defense, dmg and range.

[mann2411]

yes but not every hunter has evasion

[Angelwinged_Devil]

if you believe in numbers take archers general+marksman versus warlocks+mages general
do the same with archers general+hunter then you have your numbers

a hunter can be rendered nearly invincible and have a godlike attack, sotw+pet.

[ncvr]

yes but not every hunter has evasion
LOL

Their fault if they don't get it. If you're a hunter play like a hunter not a WARLOCK

[mann2411]

well i simply cannot afford it you see necro its either i no attack spells, no pet or cant track and i'm also certain i would be yelled at for not having tracking by someone like yourself i wouldn't be able to do anything without LB and i wouldn't be able to do anything without a pet your move sherlock

anyway i hate son of the wind and find it almost useless for the amount of mana it cosumes and how little it acutally does

[Signatus]

anyway i hate son of the wind and find it almost useless for the amount of mana it cosumes and how little it acutally does

gah... heretic...

[ncvr]

Shortbows lvl 13 is good, longbows must be 19 or not at all to be effective. Anyway, your choice...I don't use a pet on my hunter btw and I can fight fine. Base attack of lvl 50 hunter does 90 - 120 dmg to me, I'm setup more for defense.

EDIT: Point is if you want to sacrifice defense for attack then go ahead. 1) It's just not how hunters are meant to be played, they are more effective setup evasively and 2) You have a MUCH easier time in war especially.

[mann2411]

actually i feel that i do fine everywhere forts, hunt, PvP i'm decent all around :imstupid: seriously tho i have had matchs against warlocks where i have been absolutely slaughtered by them and times where i can beat em pretty easidly i guess its pretty even but i find that warlocks are always the most annoying class in my books (dam that dizzy) other than that tho i actually think they are fairly normal

awesomeness ftw

[ncvr]

With warlocks, if they get the first hit, they win unless they're unlucky. Or you could play the "tree game" and win that way.

[CumeriTarenes]

well i simply cannot afford it you see necro its either i no attack spells, no pet or cant track and i'm also certain i would be yelled at for not having tracking by someone like yourself i wouldn't be able to do anything without LB and i wouldn't be able to do anything without a pet your move sherlock

anyway i hate son of the wind and find it almost useless for the amount of mana it cosumes and how little it acutally does


Short Bows 15 (dual shoot, tear apart and dex passive lvl 4)
Long Bows 3
Tricks 11 (ambush and stun fist lvl 3)
Evasion 15 (mobility, spell elude and acrobait lvl 4)
Scouting 15 (ensnarre, wild spirit and camo lvl 4, enemy surveillance lvl 3)
Pets 19 (controll monsters/tame beasts lvl 5)

This is a lvl 45 setup with scouting, pet, damage, tricks and evasion. So, where is the problem that you cannot afford it? Also, when talking about balance you should talk about lvl 50 characters.


and to sotw, it is not useless, even at lvl 1 it is quite good...I prefer to use sotw lvl 1 instead of low profile when I am in danger. about the same mana, but you are faster, you can cast non damaging powers, you can attack, your pet can attack and you don't loose your buffs

[ncvr]

Cumeri I would get Evasive Tactics to 4 in Evasion. It's a pretty good spell especially vs. shortbow hunters.

[CumeriTarenes]

Cumeri I would get Evasive Tactics to 4 in Evasion. It's a pretty good spell especially vs. shortbow hunters.

nah, acrobatic is more important in my opinion, because evasive works pretty well even on lvl 1. When I would sacrifice a point in dex passive, in camo and in mobility to get evasive tactics on lvl 4

[ncvr]

I like camo on lvl 1.

Actually I don't use it that much at all, probably I would have lvl 15 scouting for lvl 4 Wild Spirit and Ensnaring arrow only.

It is good on lvl 1 though, I just had good experiences with it on lvl 4..:superpusso:

[Valorius]

what im running right now:

Pets 19 (Humanoid maxed- using an orc grunt)
Evasion 19 (acrobat, spell elude, mobility, defensive tactics, SOTW, and passive int. boost all maxed)
Scouting 17 (lvl 4 passive movement, lvl 4 ensnare arrow, lvl 3 scouting)
Tricks 15 (Confuse lvl 3, stunfist lvl 2)
Shortbow 11 (dual shot lvl 3, passive dex lvl 3)
Longbows 3

I like to switch up frequently, so that opponents never adjust to my weaknesses, as they're always changing.

[ncvr]

Whatever happened to "Forget the pet, maximize your -character- skills" :p?

[Angelwinged_Devil]

With warlocks, if they get the first hit, they win unless they're unlucky. Or you could play the "tree game" and win that way.
not nexcesarily ;)

[ncvr]

not nexcesarily ;)
Err...I said *unless* you're unlucky or you could play the tree game and *win* that way.

Because if all the chance spells were taken away, a battle with a warlock would look like this...

Precast Energy Barrier
Meteor
Silence
Meteor
Beetle
Meteor
Will domain
Meteor
Damage spells
Meteor
Vampirism
Recast Energy barrier + dmg spell(s)
Meteor
Will domain
Meteor
Beetle
Meteor
Silence
Damage spell(s)
Meteor
Soulkeeper
...

[Valorius]

Whatever happened to "Forget the pet, maximize your -character- skills" :p?
RESPONSE FROM MY POST:

"I like to switch up frequently, so that opponents never adjust to my weaknesses, as they're always changing."

[mann2411]

er no thank you cumeri i think i'll stick with the setup that makes me awesome all round anyways i dont really have trouble against warlocks i just find that they are one of the hardest classes to get to to attack

[ncvr]

Sneak up under camo, ambush, tear/break apart, stunfist when they get up...it's not that hard...knights will probably resist your ambush and marksmen will take very little dmg from your attacks. Hunters as always will be prepared after tracking you for probably 10 minutes.

[Angelwinged_Devil]

Err...I said *unless* you're unlucky or you could play the tree game and *win* that way.

Because if all the chance spells were taken away, a battle with a warlock would look like this...

Precast Energy Barrier
Meteor
Silence
Meteor
Beetle
Meteor
Will domain
Meteor
Damage spells
Meteor
Vampirism
Recast Energy barrier + dmg spell(s)
Meteor
Will domain
Meteor
Beetle
Meteor
Silence
Damage spell(s)
Meteor
Soulkeeper
...
err no... not nescesarily, your enemy does stuff too you know.

[mann2411]

Sneak up under camo, ambush, tear/break apart, stunfist when they get up...it's not that hard...knights will probably resist your ambush and marksmen will take very little dmg from your attacks. Hunters as always will be prepared after tracking you for probably 10 minutes.
yer i was talking about in PvP but if you can do that (rofl you dont need camo just sneak up behind em) they are actually pretty much toast with cheese

[fluffy_muffin]

err no... not nescesarily, your enemy does stuff too you know.
under dizzy? or when he is on his back?

[Angelwinged_Devil]

under dizzy? or when he is on his back?
dizzy->go behind an object ffs

[fluffy_muffin]

dizzy->go behind an object ffs
it is hard with ivy :D

[Valour]

alot of that will be evaded or resisted :p

[ncvr]

alot of that will be evaded or resisted :p
Not if spell elude is removed, same with dodge, which was the point of that ;)

[fluffy_muffin]

alot of that will be evaded or resisted :p
Like your will domain at pb? ;] you left me for barbs you bad bad conj! ;p
I have no idea which "cover spell" was it but you evaded, resisted, blocked all my spells :]

[Miraculix]

It's funny how almost only Warlocks voted for Marksmen, but almost every class has voted for Warlocks :p

[magnet]

It's funny how almost only Warlocks voted for Marksmen, but almost every class has voted for Warlocks :p

I have been playing Marks 45 non stop for three days and I confirm that Marksman are WAY, WAY overpowered.

And be warned: I'm screenshoting ALL my encounters and I will make stats within an official report and I'll make all I can so they get nerfed, for the sake of this game.

I was just now for one hour hunting in syrtis with a lv 41 Conjurer with Zarkit. We killed everyone we encountered. Hunters lv 48-50, including "names" (such as srmofo), in outnumbered situations, Warlocks, Conjurers, all died leaving me generally uninjured. My resistance to damage is completely abnormal (way higher than my Knight in fact) and the amount of evades/resists is a joke given the high damage I got (Arcana Strike with DS over 1000 ftw) and the awesome range/speed (and I don't even have points in the range passive!)... I eat Warlocks so easily it's a joke (yes, I do use Burst of Wind unlike a lot of Marksmen)...

Now I'm gonna make clear stats and compare with my Warlock, my Knight, with ratios evades/mana cost (for enemy and self), and damage-reduction-evades/damage inflicted.

Znurre can also testify. I was on hunt with him and Kathris yesterday at Menirah. In the last battle Kathris died immediately, what was it Znurre? 6vs2? All around lv 40, some as high as 45? Maybe more than 6. We killed them all... A few times. They had time to get angry. Oh. And we escaped (actually we were greeted without mana, buffs and health at the teleport end points by Envy who had no trouble finishing us :p but that was only very bad luck). And the end of battles, I was rarely much injured, only out of mana. What a difficult class to play! It's like "who is gonna die next?" and that's it.

The spell Death Sentence is a joke. It should be range 20 and casting time 2s, at least. As it is, it's really really overpowered. In general, most Marksmen spells are instant and that's bullshit. Ethereal Arrow is way overpowered too with low cooldown, low mana, instant cast, that Mage just cast Energy Barrier? Die anyway!

But of course the true overpowerdness comes from Evasions... People who attack you see how futile it is. I met srmofo (twice) near Syrtis market (gate), chased him, DS, Serpents bite, hoho you're losing by far. His hits? Dual shot lv 5 ~150, normal hits 50-60. Haha. Then a second hunter, the pt lema of Syrtis, comes. Directly casts SoW. srmofo is in SoW too, so they both target me. With ridiculously low attacks, thanks to my resists (I also evade half). But bad surprise for you guys. Your SotW are almost over, now *I* start mine. Who's the biatch now? You are DS'ed, I'm in SoW, you're so dead :). Anyway srmofo was almost dead by my hand, his SotW finishes, oh lema and me kill him. Then it's lema's turn. He took the teleporter 2 hits away from dying.

Yesterday I managed to escape a group of what.. 7-10 ignitas, near Samal (with the help of ooo O ooo)... No way my Warlock could ever do that.

We had tons of fights like that. And don't get me started on fort wars. With unlimited mana I'm like Robinhood on steroids with a bazooka.

Did I mention my Marks is only lv 45 and is more powerful than my lv 50 Warlocks? And I don't even have Confuse. Yet.

[misaccc]

and i cant belive how many people voted that barbs are overpowered...

[Signatus]

...

ROFL

Stop beating pts and stating that marks are overpowered... but then again, if your calculations confirm it...

[magnet]

ROFL

Stop beating pts and stating that marks are overpowered... but then again, if your calculations confirm it...

I just find that some Marksmen are shameless to call Warlocks overpowered (looking at the result of the poll and Miraculix' comment) when they are obviously the ultimate class (especially with a good Conjurer along) and playing one I can tell how unfair it is to other classes. If I had the lacking powerpoints it would be even more crazy :).

Someone has to stand up with some objectivity and I think I'm objective playing the very class I criticize.

Of course it's fun, but it is the "Archer fun", the lame fun, the fun but no challenge. The Syrtis fun(TM). :D

PS: Do you know Batman, the Ignis hunter? And another hunter friend one or two levels below him. Well they were hidden at pp when we came back from hunt, not only they let us rape lachnload, their Conju, while remaining invisible (of course had no clue they'd be there). But then they decide to attack us in our back and we raped them (2vs2+2cyclops+1 elite cyclops I aggro'ed with Ignus Scortch) in like 10s... That's the best thing about Marksmen, I can rape hunters so easily, it brings me a huge smile :D

[Envy]

lol magnet, it seems as if you made a Marksman only so you could bitch about it and claim objectivity at the same time.

[magnet]

lol magnet, it seems as if you made a Marksman only so you could bitch about it and claim objectivity at the same time.

Well most Marksmen in the English community remains silent and considers things balanced; and some even dare to say that Warlocks are overpowered. Since no ones stepped up I'll do it and I will release all my logs and make different measures to show that with 80% of measures you take, the statistic is in favour of Marks :). So people of Ignis and Syrtis have to understand that it is NOT for fun that I will go kill them over and over, but for the sake of balance! Amen! :bananajoy:

[Signatus]

PS: Do you know Batman, the Ignis hunter? And another hunter friend one or two levels below him. Well they were hidden at pp when we came back from hunt, not only they let us rape lachnload, their Conju, while remaining invisible (of course had no clue they'd be there). But then they decide to attack us in our back and we raped them (2vs2+2cyclops+1 elite cyclops I aggro'ed with Ignus Scortch) in like 10s... That's the best thing about Marksmen, I can rape hunters so easily, it brings me a huge smile :D

I know Batman, and I know poor lachnload (got to team that fellow up, the "holas" are abusing from his innocence)... and I'll repeat: stop beating pts. Because you ought to be a pt to loose 2V2 fight against a conju and a marks being 2 hunters (one 50 and the other 48?) invisible from start and with pets for Christ sake... and worst, the way you describe it make it sound easy. If you said "Well it was tough but we managed to win." I would understand, bad days happen to invisible-hunters-with-high-lvl-pet-setup, but in 10 sec?! Le Gasp...

Just let Wudy, Comp and Aeron hit the WZ again...

[Anpu]

lol magnet, it seems as if you made a Marksman only so you could bitch about it and claim objectivity at the same time.
+1 :closed1:

[magnet]

I know Batman, and I know poor lachnload (got to team that fellow up, the "holas" are abusing from his innocence)... and I'll repeat: stop beating pts. Because you ought to be a pt to loose 2V2 fight against a conju and a marks being 2 hunters (one 50 and the other 48?) invisible from start and with pets for Christ sake... and worst, the way you describe it make it sound easy. If you said "Well it was tough but we managed to win." I would understand, bad days happen to invisible-hunters-with-high-lvl-pet-setup, but in 10 sec?! Le Gasp...

Just let Wudy, Comp and Aeron hit the WZ again...

Yeah they certainly are pts...:

First they let their conjus die and they were in Stalker! I know it because after we killed lachnload and crossed the bridge, I saw Batman behind me, I came back, DS'ed him, and he Camoued again, immediately .. my fault, I should have hit with a regular attack rather than DS which required coming in range, but who would think a Hunter who is way higher level than you would simply cast Camou again. At that point, I didn't know there was another Hunter, still in Stalker!

So I cast Ignus Scorch (and as I saw later, it dealt 600 dmg to the poor fellow with DS, even if he was buffed) and got his cyclops and another I aggroed (Elite Cyclops Warrior) on my back. The two hunters used the confusion of 2 pets on me to send me another one. Now the Conjurer with me (who isn't a bad guy, but with a Warjurer skillset) couldn't even target me but the Hunters did. Now since they were out of stalker they weren't buffed and died... yeah in about 10s. Zarkit+DS=pure overpower ;).

Now I'm not saying there aren't good hunters in game. I wouldn't rape good hunters. I would certainly be very very troublesome even to the best Warlocks, given I evade/resist about half spells (Dodge lv 5 + Spell Eludes lv5) and when they hit me, it's about 50% damage reduc (golem fist lv 5 ~500 hps).

The thing is yoshi that I am myself a Marksman pt, having roughly a few hours of play in the counter, I am not even used to my toolbar, I use only two bows (one fast short and one long slow).

I'm just showcasing that not only this class is overpowered but it's also easy to play, all the more to its overpoweredness.

I'll stop here because some people will very soon start to be really bored ;) (I know Marksmen who have been angry for my anti-marksman propaganda for a long time though :p so nothing new).

IMHO Marksmen would be more fun to play if it were challenging, if you had to care more for your position (because right now I evade so much I can be in the middle of the melee..) and so on. Once again, my problem is with the Evasion tree.

Cya :beerchug:

PS: if you want pvp your Hunter vs my Marks it will be a pleasure, then you can see how much I resist.


+1

I invite you to raise a Warlock to high level and do the same as me. Then tell me, in your soul and conscience, that Warlocks are overpowered.

[Znurre]

Yes, I agree with Magnet.
Me and him killing parties twice as big as us, sometimes 3x as big.

And at Menirah, he evaded/resisted 10/21 attacks.
I saw it myself.

[Signatus]

PS: if you want pvp your Hunter vs my Marks it will be a pleasure, then you can see how much I resist.

Nah, make it against my knight! Mindsquash ftw... with my "thou-shall-not-evade-my-powers" shield :devil:

I was about to own a lock 50 a while ago, not bad for me... damn soulkeeper in the very last moment (it would be wise to raise a couple of lvls on my shield bash... I have it on 1... and it would be wise not having lag: my usual excuse)

You know what... someone should arrange a pvp meeting among the community of this forum, like in the old days (or I was told... wait, I remember Cowboy arranging one!). A nice cozy place, the english clans and "holas" friends travel there and use TS, Mumble or IRC to tease each other in a slaughter fest :fingers: . Then everyone can testify what is "overpowered" or not.

[magnet]

Your knight will be hard, very hard. Marks suck even more against Knights on PvP than Warlocks, because you need a lot of mana against Knights. However, in "real" game, a Marks can run from a Knight while a Warlock can run from... another Mage, that's all ;).

What level is your Knight now, you leveling freak? I prefer Knight vs Knight :D

[Anpu]

I invite you to raise a Warlock to high level and do the same as me. Then tell me, in your soul and conscience, that Warlocks are overpowered.
i have lvl 25 but i dont like to play it since its so slow and no mobility.. but its lvling machine for sure, can kill faster than marksman in that "age"

[magnet]

i have lvl 25 but i dont like to play it since its so slow and no mobility.. but its lvling machine for sure, can kill faster than marksman in that "age"

Yes it's more powerful in the early levels, but balance is made for level 50. Now I guarantee that the only thing preventing a Marks from killing as fast as a Warlock is mana, with a Conj and a fast bow, using only skills, you can kill as fast as any Warlock, then switching to recharged arrows+Slow Long bow for "normal" (300-400) damage which works even if you're dizzy.

Yes, there are things a Warlock is better at than Marksmen: mana regen, of course, combat control (when it works), Terror is way better than Lightning arrow or other areas, but if you compare most aspects, Marksmen win. And that isn't my vision of balance.

[fluffy_muffin]

That's the best thing about Marksmen, I can rape hunters so easily, it brings me a huge smile :D
I hope you are buffed all the time. Cause 1 confuse before you will buff yourself and you will be dead faster then light.

[magnet]

I hope you are buffed all the time. Cause 1 confuse before you will buff yourself and you will be dead faster then light.

I am, and I even cast Dodge when I rebuff so no one Confuses me in between :D (and I use a fast bow).

[BlooD]

(and I use a fast bow).

Fast bows = crap.

You lose shoots while you are moving, and you have to be always in movement.

I was bored.

[magnet]

Fast bows = crap.

You lose shoots while you are moving, and you have to be always in movement.

I was bored.

No i meant for buffing, pt :p
Log maho and let's go kill!!! :D

[Valorius]

Back on the topic of overpowered, i got hit by a barb for 2861 dmg last night....i'm lvl 50 and only have 3100hp if i use ring/amulets boosts to maximize hp. Without them, i'm at about 2960hp.

One hit kills of lvl 50s is NOT cool at all.

PS: I had on 30% dmg absorbtion from acrobat lvl 5, and armor that's 'very good' vs slashing. So in reality, the attack was probably an unadjusted value of 4000+ dmg. (It was a southcross)

Come on now, that's a -bit- much, dontcha think guys?

[Valorius]

Yes it's more powerful in the early levels, but balance is made for level 50. Now I guarantee that the only thing preventing a Marks from killing as fast as a Warlock is mana, with a Conj and a fast bow, using only skills, you can kill as fast as any Warlock, then switching to recharged arrows+Slow Long bow for "normal" (300-400) damage which works even if you're dizzy.

Yes, there are things a Warlock is better at than Marksmen: mana regen, of course, combat control (when it works), Terror is way better than Lightning arrow or other areas, but if you compare most aspects, Marksmen win. And that isn't my vision of balance.
Personally i think lightning arrow is much worse to get hit with than Terror, because of the immense mobility penalty. What is it, -25% movement for 30 seconds?

That's a death sentence for a hunter.

[makarios68]

Back on the topic of overpowered, got hit by a barb for 2861 dmg last night....i'm lvl 50 and only have 3100hp if i use ring/amulets boosts to maximize hp. Without them, i'm at about 2960hp.

One hit kills of lvl 50s is NOT cool at all.

PS: I had on 30% dmg absorbtion from acrobat lvl 5, and armor that's 'very good' vs slashing. So in reality, the attack was probably an unadjusted value of 4000+ dmg.

Come on now, that's a -bit- much, dontcha think guys?

This is the reason i voted barb...

[Valorius]

The problem is shared skills trees. In a perfect world, NGD would divorce the sharing of skill trees among subclasses.

Just as Barbarian is (imo grossly..) overpowered with southcross, so to is marksman overpowered with the evasion tree skills AND strategic positioning.

A marksman with full evasion and strategic positioning is probably the hardest class of any to kill in the entire game...and even a 'defensive marksman' deals massive damage compared to a hunter or a knight, for example.

To fix marksmen, the simplest way would be to simply eliminate strategic positioning, and for the barb, eliminate southcross.

Both result in vastly overpowered subclass builds, imo.

[Znurre]

This is the reason i voted barb...

I am barb, and I agree South Cross is overpowered.
Just look at Yoseba.

Berserk + Colossus + South Cross = 3k dmg in one hit on me

[Valorius]

I am barb, and I agree South Cross is overpowered.
Just look at Yoseba.

Berserk + Colossus + South Cross = 3k dmg in one hit on me
As a matter of fact it was Yoseba that hit me too. 2800+ in one attack through 30% dmg resist and 'very good' slashing protection. From 100% health to under 5% in one swing...

[DkySven]

Yoseba had some 2200 hits with Sc at me, one combined with a critical of 1500 damage. If my knight wouldn't have health boosting stuff I would have died only because of this, now other red barbs finished me off. Although they do poof when you target them :) They don't have much defense.

[makarios68]

I am barb, and I agree South Cross is overpowered.
Just look at Yoseba.

Berserk + Colossus + South Cross = 3k dmg in one hit on me

The same thing happened when i fought him with my barb.

With one s/c he did 3 times the dmg of my ripost and squashed me like a fly.

It's not so much that barbs are overpowered, but that one of their spells is...

[Envy]

I don't think Marks should lose their defense, just their mobility (Not the skill specifically, in general terms). IMO a marksman should be a slow moving cannon. Strategic positioning is a great skill, in effect and theory as that's what such a person would do. However he shouldn't be able to nip around the battle field. Perhaps Strat Pos. could be a toggle skill that disables movement. That way to be effective you would have to strategically position yourself, set yourself up to fire and let rip.

I really don't think Marksmen and Hunters should be relying on the same defensive skills.

[_dracus_]

I don't think Marks should lose their defense, just their mobility (Not the skill specifically, in general terms). IMO a marksman should be a slow moving cannon. Strategic positioning is a great skill, in effect and theory as that's what such a person would do. However he shouldn't be able to nip around the battle field. Perhaps Strat Pos. could be a toggle skill that disables movement. That way to be effective you would have to strategically position yourself, set yourself up to fire and let rip.

I really don't think Marksmen and Hunters should be relying on the same defensive skills.

Totally agree with you a marksman can't run at the same speed as the wind :)

[Pizdzius]

i voted barb too...

[CumeriTarenes]

what expresses how succesful (more successful = more power, too sucessful=overpowered) a class is? It is rp.

1. Take a look in the rankings. It is not dominated by marksmen

2. Take a look in the rangings of the german servers. They are dominated by marksmen, second is warlock. That is because on german servers more player play at the same time due to no difference in time zones. They are having great fort wars there because the german servers don't suffer that much from lag and because there are often wars announced in the forums. They set a date and meet to have war. In fort wars marksmen rock. They have range and decent damage power, and there is usually a conju to fill up mana. Also on the german servers marksmen are most popular class, due to to much possibilities of fort wars.

When you say marksmen are that overpowered you are wrong. They have advantage in some situations. A hunter therefore rocks in the open field, that is what he is made for.

Another thing you should consider: A marksman should have more power for himself because he has no ally area spells at all. Same as hunter. But a hunter has a pet instead of marks fire power.

Magnet, you say you own hunters. On the other hand you are saying you evade and resist that much, your marks is almost invincable. I wonder why the hunters you fight don't evade and resist that much like you because they have the same evasion than you.

Sure, hunters are easy...as long as you surprise them. When they surprise you you will end most probably dead.

But back to the rp. That is what counts, and how much you get in a fight depends on the situation of the fight. One class gets more rp in fort wars, other more in small groups or solo. For that I cannot understand why balance is made just by looking at war and not on small fights. There are classes that are mainly designed to play solo or in small groups.

I respect that you played almost every class, but as it was already said, you were biased against marks before you started to play a marks. That means your opinion is not that objective.

I agree that I wonder why marks are having strategic position, but on the other hand barbs are having frency and knights don't have it. I admit that strategic position is a very good spell, and that it should be weaker or you should get a penality when using it.

But just one spell...that is like saying barbs are overpowered because of south cross...
When there is a overpowered class from the point of your argumentation then it is conjus, because a conju can give health back faster than most classes are able to do damage. When you consider the damage that can be done and the damage that can be taken just because a conju gives health and mana...or resurrects...it is awesome. Never the less conjus are not overpowered I think.

I also wonder why there is a poll about most overpowered classes but not about cmost balanced classes...means classes that are having a 50:50 chance to loose or to win in an average of all situations.

[BlooD]

what expresses how succesful (more successful = more power, too sucessful=overpowered) a class is? It is rp.


Sorry but no.

Marksman dont have much rp because they lack of auras an area spells for allys.

A barb can cast cut their heads and onslaugth and get 8 rps for enemy killed by the group, even if he doesnt hit anyone. A warlock is most of the time trying to spam area attacks and conjurers and knigths are always with his auras on.

Rp only means how many time you play each day, a barb will always get more rps than a marksman playing together and for the same amount of time.

[CumeriTarenes]

Sorry but no.

Marksman dont have much rp because they lack of auras an area spells for allys.

I know that marks are fgetting not that much of rp. Rp expresses how much your character helped to kill an enemy. Less rp, less help. Less help, less power.



Rp only means how many time you play each day

Yes, but in an overall average you can assume that people are playing marks as long as other players are playing other classes each day. For rp express how successful (how much involved they were in killing) they were. The aspect of time only counts when you talk about rp of players, not about rp of classes.

[Signatus]

There are powers that simply won't give you RP, although they are usefull in battle or to engage one; even a skill that allows to kill an enemy instantly in an heavy buffed status isn't rewarded by RP...

[magnet]

Magnet, you say you own hunters. On the other hand you are saying you evade and resist that much, your marks is almost invincable. I wonder why the hunters you fight don't evade and resist that much like you because they have the same evasion than you.


I won't reply on the rest 'cause BlooD did and obviously we're not gonna agree. You obviously lack knowledge on the RP award mechanism... Ie DS doesn't give Rps (or very few) while it's the skill that have people die. I cast DS while a warlock is casting meteor and his meteor is 1000+. Still that's the Mark's doing, and he doesn't get Rp. Don't base yourself on Rp this is fundamentally flawed as an argument. And I'm afraid you need to play other classes in the WZ at high level before saying "Marks are not overpowered".

Now the diff between my marks and the hunter is that even lv 45 I hit stronger (with recharged arrows but not only) and I *truly* maxxed Evasion, not the half-hassled max some Hunters do... I also have Strategic Position + Evasive tactics while they only have the latter. They evade, they resist, but in the long run I make more dmg. That's all. Hunters with low evasion are easy though. Some with really high evasion are obviously hard...

Also, if I have DS which goes through, they'll go down easy. Also, most Hunters try to run away, so I can easily shoot them in the back :p.

[BlooD]

I know that marks are fgetting not that much of rp. Rp expresses how much your character helped to kill an enemy. Less rp, less help. Less help, less power.


No, a lot of auras from conjurers or barbs are not useful in certain moments or for determinated classes. For example a barb casting cut their heads! with warlocks around will not help the warlocks but he will earn rp. A conjurer can spam things like mana communion when no one uses mana and he will earn rp.

You dont have to be useful or powerful to earn rp, killing a guy by yourself never means you will get the 18 rps. A conjuror recieves rp each kill his allies does but a marksman only gets rps from the ones he kills.



Yes, but in an overall average you can assume that people are playing marks as long as other players are playing other classes each day. For rp express how successful (how much involved they were in killing) they were. The aspect of time only counts when you talk about rp of players, not about rp of classes.

Thats why i said the part you dont quoted, imagine a group of 3 with a barb, a conjurer and a marksman. They played together always and you never see one of them without seeing the other 2, but for each kill the group does the barb and the conjuror will earn rp, the marksman only gets rps from the people he damages.

Anyway we are talking all this in the case the rps means something like overpowered or not.
Obviously thats not the case.

[Valorius]

But just one spell...that is like saying barbs are overpowered because of south cross...

4000dmg in one attack IS overpowered, any way you 'slice' it.

And how overpowered are 'defensive' marksman? My base attack is 320-377 dmg with my xym LB. I was shooting a well known defensive marksman in a 1 vs 1 today, and my regular arrows were doing about 40 damage.

40 damage....

[CumeriTarenes]

I have been playing Marks 45 non stop for three days and I confirm that Marksman are WAY, WAY overpowered.

And be warned: I'm screenshoting ALL my encounters and I will make stats within an official report and I'll make all I can so they get nerfed, for the sake of this game.

I was just now for one hour hunting in syrtis with a lv 41 Conjurer with Zarkit. We killed everyone we encountered.


well, the funny thing is...I heard realmmates saying that you cried for mana all the time, even tough they supplied you with mana very much. When I use all my spells and spend all my mana I am a killing maschine, true. But without mana you are dead meat...no speed, not much base damage, no chance to get mana back. Just be a marks in a party without a conju or a mana spending warlock...playing won't be that easy as you described. A barb with DI and mana supply will be much more effecient than a marksman with it.

So, go out without a conju...and you will see how you will suck without mana. A marks is considered to be a sniper, that means he has to be able to do much damage in a short period of time on a single target. But...after killing the target he is almost without mana.
And to your full defensive marksman: Which other offensive class has to level up a discipline to 19 only to get defence skills? A full defence marksman has to spend points in:
dodge, evasive tactics, cat reflexes, spell elude, acrobatic, wits and strategic position. Casting all spells on lvl 5 will cost 940 mana, a lvl 50 marks has about 1400 mana max. Having all spells at spell lvl 5 will cost 20 power points, the spells you mentioned then (death sentence, arcana strike, ignus scorch and recharged arrows) will take 16 more points. Since you have just 42 points, you have 6 points left (at lvl 45 you even miss 2 points)...and you have no range area at all and just 2 real damage attack spell. Also, the so called much range would be just 1,5m...that is less than 1 sec of running.
When I would have put 4 points into dex passive I would have even used 24 out of 42 points for defence. When I do spend that much points I should expect to evade/resist much and to be able to take much damage. You should ever look if you have points for all the things you consider they are making someone overpowered.
So, and now tell me how much points a warlock or a barb invests into defence?



To the rp thing: Why is it like this? Is it not unfair that some classes gain rp more easy than others? We are argueing about power of classes...but it does not realy matter how much power a class has...it matters how the power you have is rewarded. And when all power rewards are balanced, then you can see in rp differences which class has too much or too few powers. Imagine you would nerf a class that gets not that easy rp. The class would have even harder times to get them. Not that i just play for rp, but it is a purpose of the game too, since this is a part of the game that keeps you playing, and that confirms you how good or bad you play.





My base attack is 320-377 dmg with my xym LB. I was shooting a well known defensive marksman in a 1 vs 1 today, and my regular arrows were doing about 40 damage.

40 damage....

320-377 dmg is what your character window says I guess, but this is without any armor at all...when it is correct at all

Well, on a defensive hunter a marks would do about 70 damage I guess, with recharged arrows almost 100 damage. But, a hunter has a pet, which you have to add to your damage.

[ljwolfe]

"Originally Posted by magnet
I have been playing Marks 45 non stop for three days and I confirm that Marksman are WAY, WAY overpowered.

And be warned: I'm screenshoting ALL my encounters and I will make stats within an official report and I'll make all I can so they get nerfed, for the sake of this game.

I was just now for one hour hunting in syrtis with a lv 41 Conjurer with Zarkit. We killed everyone we encountered."

Nice to see someone playing another class just to get it nerfed. step in front of a moving truck please. So you go out with a conjurer and own a bunch of levelling noobs so marksmen are op'd. wow great logic. Whatever hunters allow you to shoot them in the back are morons, congrats again for not proving your point.

[Valorius]

320-377 dmg is what your character window says I guess, but this is without any armor at all...when it is correct at all

Well, on a defensive hunter a marks would do about 70 damage I guess, with recharged arrows almost 100 damage. But, a hunter has a pet, which you have to add to your damage.
I often do over 300dmg vs mage and hunters (sometimes as much as 350+ without crits, depending on the 'dice roll').
Over 250 vs barbs and knights.

And 40-50 vs the marksman i fought tonight.

40-50....

His arrows, regular attacks(probably rechargeds), were doing 120-150 per...and i was full out defensive buffed.

Marksman -if built properly- is extremely overpowered.

[ncvr]

Lvl 50 marksmen hit my warlock for around 600 dmg using a slow/30 bow and recharged arrows.

Lvl 50 warlock hit my warlock for around 200 dmg using a slow/30 staff.

...

Lvl 5 lightning hits around 180 dmg per tick on lvl 50 warlocks...

Lvl 5 lightning hits around 20 dmg per tick (no I'm not exaggerating) on lvl 50 marksmen if it actually hits.

...

Lvl 50 warlocks hit me around 600 dmg with meteor lvl 5.

Lvl 50 marksmen hit me around 800 dmg with Arcane Strike lvl 5.

...

So the only thing warlocks have is combat control and areas, and that is if they hit. Marksmen save more hp with their defensive spells than warlocks with their life drain and barrier. Where is the balance here?

[Valorius]

Actually, etheral strike is another overpowered marks skill, cause once a player gets it lvl 5, regardless of their lvl, if they hit you it does max dmg, period.

No other class has such a skill. A lvl 38 marksman can NAIL any lvl 50 player for max dmg with ethereal arrow.

[ljwolfe]

except marksmen rarely hit anything.... trust me :) 20 misses/blocks/0 damage in a row is common.

i have level 5 arcana strike and i very rarely get close to that damage. usually around 500 or so, WHEN IT HITS

[fluffy_muffin]

[...]
Well, on a defensive hunter a marks would do about 70 damage I guess, with recharged arrows almost 100 damage. But, a hunter has a pet, which you have to add to your damage.

Well my orc deal around 45-50dmg on buffed marks :> WOW what a dmg ;]
I was fighting with imo great marks i had a lot fun (fighting with marks like with warlock - it is funny). So fight goes like that... we both evade most important spells ;] i am close and try to stay on his back.
He is shooting to me for 183-220dmg without recharged... i hit him for 44-48 my pet around 50.
But as you said, if marks is ambushed and dizzied/confused then he is dead. And it was my fault that i allowed him to use his spells. So i am not complaining.

[Static_Fang]

Well my orc deal around 45-50dmg on buffed marks :> WOW what a dmg ;]
I was fighting with imo great marks i had a lot fun (fighting with marks like with warlock - it is funny). So fight goes like that... we both evade most important spells ;] i am close and try to stay on his back.
He is shooting to me for 183-220dmg without recharged... i hit him for 44-48 my pet around 50.
But as you said, if marks is ambushed and dizzied/confused then he is dead. And it was my fault that i allowed him to use his spells. So i am not complaining.

I hated when i froze you, killed your orc...and then couldnt do ANYTHING against you afterwards...not long ago...damn that got on my nerves :razz:

[ncvr]

If a hunter has a Cyclops Warrior I go for it first, if they have anything else I go for them first.

[fluffy_muffin]

I hated when i froze you, killed your orc...and then couldnt do ANYTHING against you afterwards...not long ago...damn that got on my nerves :razz:
That was great :D kudos for that. Next time suck hp from pet ;]

[Static_Fang]

That was great :D kudos for that. Next time suck hp from pet ;]

I was training before that, killed pet and had about 10seconds till vamp refilled, and 30seconds till soulkeep :razz: i did my best

[Envy]

well, the funny thing is...I heard realmmates saying that you cried for mana all the time, even tough they supplied you with mana very much. When I use all my spells and spend all my mana I am a killing maschine, true. But without mana you are dead meat...no speed, not much base damage, no chance to get mana back. Just be a marks in a party without a conju or a mana spending warlock...playing won't be that easy as you described. A barb with DI and mana supply will be much more effecient than a marksman with it.

So, go out without a conju...and you will see how you will suck without mana. A marks is considered to be a sniper, that means he has to be able to do much damage in a short period of time on a single target. But...after killing the target he is almost without mana.
And to your full defensive marksman: Which other offensive class has to level up a discipline to 19 only to get defence skills? A full defence marksman has to spend points in:
dodge, evasive tactics, cat reflexes, spell elude, acrobatic, wits and strategic position. Casting all spells on lvl 5 will cost 940 mana, a lvl 50 marks has about 1400 mana max. Having all spells at spell lvl 5 will cost 20 power points, the spells you mentioned then (death sentence, arcana strike, ignus scorch and recharged arrows) will take 16 more points. Since you have just 42 points, you have 6 points left (at lvl 45 you even miss 2 points)...and you have no range area at all and just 2 real damage attack spell. Also, the so called much range would be just 1,5m...that is less than 1 sec of running.
When I would have put 4 points into dex passive I would have even used 24 out of 42 points for defence. When I do spend that much points I should expect to evade/resist much and to be able to take much damage. You should ever look if you have points for all the things you consider they are making someone overpowered.
So, and now tell me how much points a warlock or a barb invests into defence?
<snip>


Thank you, I was just about to say how much mana those bloody defensive buffs suck out of you, if a hunter comes out of camo the moment I have just buffed myself I have little mana for offensive spells. I use Acrobatic, Strategic, and Elude, not half of the evade tree as that's just a power point sink. For the levels I have those spells on its 590 mana out of my almost 1300supply IIRC.

[ncvr]

You think other classes don't use mana then, do you?

Wind Wall + EB + Arcane Devotion is even more mana than that, and if we cast AS that's -300/450 of our already low hp.

And to how many points we invest in our defense:

In theory, warlocks have a ton of extra hp because of all our spells. But...

It would be better to keep Necromancy and Mana control to 15. They have to get them both to 19 for all of that "defense". Warlocks are low on points as it is, with Elements, Arcania and Mental disciplines to take care of as well.

Speaking of Arcania they need that maxed as well for effective Wind Wall, even then it's about hard to take care of since it's still 30/60 dur/cd.

So that's 3 maxed disciplines required for their defense. Actually most already have all those to 15, so it's just over 1 maxed discipline in total. Most marksmen use SP on 1-4, and most marksmen already have aiming mastery to those lvls for Death Sentence and Foresight.

Now for barbs:
-3 weapon disciplines to 15 (resistences lvl 4)
-Tactics to 15 (caution lvl 4)
-Warcries maxed (Frenzy lvl 5)

I really wish people would stop using such ignorant arguements.

EDIT: Barbs also need Unstoppable Madness. That's another 4 points, another reason to max warcries.

[magnet]

well, the funny thing is...I heard realmmates saying that you cried for mana all the time, even tough they supplied you with mana very much. When I use all my spells and spend all my mana I am a killing maschine, true. But without mana you are dead meat...no speed, not much base damage, no chance to get mana back. Just be a marks in a party without a conju or a mana spending warlock...playing won't be that easy as you described. A barb with DI and mana supply will be much more effecient than a marksman with it.



I use mana if there's Conjurers around obviously. Why wouldn't I? I use less mana if I'm alone, that doesn't prevent me from being a killing machine. This is a RvR game and 90% of the time there are conjurers around.
Now I don't know what "crying" for mana means but I always ASK for mana of course, wouldn't it be stupid not to? It's your choice if you don't ask for it, because 90% of the time with Conjurers : don't ask = don't get.

Btw the only time I ever asked mana with my Marks was at Menirah, with Znurre & Kathris only so it's not hard to know who is the realmmate.

Now if you are talking about my KNIGHT, THERE I do ask mana. See the difference is that with my Marks I can stay around a Conj with mana comm, but with my Knight I get to the enemy and they are full mana, they have awesome Conjurers most of the time (ie at Pines gate) and how do you think you can take on a lv 50 Barb full mana with 0 mana?

You only show your lack of knowledge in other classes if you think only Marks need mana! Of course they use a lot but they are lucky that a lot of Conjurers KNOW how much they use and I don't have to ask in practice, most Conjurers I played with filed me up with mana. And if the Conju don't want to give me mana, they don't, that's all. They can even /ignore me if they don't want me asking. I'm using my mana first to protect their asses so it's their call. If I don't have mana, don't worry I'll escape. But they might die in the process.

Finally it's about what your class can do. Yes I rushed into 20 Syrtis without SotW to lightning arrow+ignus scortch and divert the attention like my knight would have done. And I evaded just as much as my Knight would have blocked. And I did more damage for less mana than my Knight. That's the simple truth.


So, go out without a conju...and you will see how you will suck without mana. A marks is considered to be a sniper, that means he has to be able to do much damage in a short period of time on a single target. But...after killing the target he is almost without mana.


Sorry I did and I didn't suck. Didn't you read I killed quite some Warlocks lv 50 and Hunters on 1vs1? Do you think the Warjurer I played with had mana comm' or was giving me mana permanently? I just rest when I'm low mana.


And to your full defensive marksman: Which other offensive class has to level up a discipline to 19 only to get defence skills? A full defence marksman has to spend points in:
dodge, evasive tactics, cat reflexes, spell elude, acrobatic, wits and strategic position. Casting all spells on lvl 5 will cost 940 mana, a lvl 50 marks has about 1400 mana max. Having all spells at spell lvl 5 will cost 20 power points, the spells you mentioned then (death sentence, arcana strike, ignus scorch and recharged arrows) will take 16 more points. Since you have just 42 points, you have 6 points left (at lvl 45 you even miss 2 points)...and you have no range area at all and just 2 real damage attack spell. Also, the so called much range would be just 1,5m...that is less than 1 sec of running.


Who told you I have all those spells lv 5 or that I have the setup I'd wish if I were lv 50? The fact that I have such a good defense with such a good attack speaks for itself considering I'm level 45 (and afaik that's 40 points not 40).

Marks lv 45 : I have EA lv 5, Arcana Strike lv 5, Serpents bite lv 5, DS lv 4, Ignus Scorch lv 5, and recharged arrows. Good enough to kill pretty much everything.
On my Warlock lv 50: Meteor lv 5, Lightning lv 5, Fireball lv 5, Crystal blast lv5, Magma Blast lv 5... that's pretty much the only decent attack spells Warlocks have and shitty regular attacks. Marks have all their best attack spells in the same tree (Arrow Mastery), many awesome spells in another free tree (Aiming Mastery), all defence in the same tree (Evasion)... Long Bows and Short Bows can be ignored.... Whereas Warlock's good spells are balanced over different trees.


When I would have put 4 points into dex passive I would have even used 24 out of 42 points for defence. When I do spend that much points I should expect to evade/resist much and to be able to take much damage. You should ever look if you have points for all the things you consider they are making someone overpowered.


I'm looking at the points. I am playing a Marks. I am experiencing that overpowered class.


So, and now tell me how much points a warlock or a barb invests into defence?


Bravo! THEY WOULD IF THEY COULD. I have maxxed ALL defensive skills in my Warlock (except Barrier lv 4 instead of 5, depending on the setup), and if I had Evasion on my Warlock I'm sure that like every Warlock we'd max it just as much as Marks! Barbs put many points in Frenzy, Caution and Unstoppable. Sorry they can't do much more, but I am sure they would take Evasion over damage any day. But wouldn't that be unbalanced? Do you think I would condone that? Not any more than I condone Marksmen having God-like defence, no sorry.

I don't know where you posted this... But you asked if other offensive classes put as many points in defence as Marks... THEY CAN'T. That's the stupidest question I read for some time! Gratz




To the rp thing: Why is it like this? Is it not unfair that some classes gain rp more easy than others? We are argueing about power of classes...but it does not realy matter how much power a class has...it matters how the power you have is rewarded. And when all power rewards are balanced, then you can see in rp differences which class has too much or too few powers. Imagine you would nerf a class that gets not that easy rp. The class would have even harder times to get them. Not that i just play for rp, but it is a purpose of the game too, since this is a part of the game that keeps you playing, and that confirms you how good or bad you play.


RP doesn't matter. Balance does.
But it's true, poor Marksmen don't get Rps:
http://www.mithrandir.net/magnet/rp.jpg

[Envy]

You think other classes don't use mana then, do you?

Wind Wall + EB + Arcane Devotion is even more mana than that, and if we cast AS that's -300/450 of our already low hp.

And to how many points we invest in our defense:

In theory, warlocks have a ton of extra hp because of all our spells. But...

It would be better to keep Necromancy and Mana control to 15. They have to get them both to 19 for all of that "defense". Warlocks are low on points as it is, with Elements, Arcania and Mental disciplines to take care of as well.

Speaking of Arcania they need that maxed as well for effective Wind Wall, even then it's about hard to take care of since it's still 30/60 dur/cd.

So that's 3 maxed disciplines required for their defense. Actually most already have all those to 15, so it's just over 1 maxed discipline in total. Most marksmen use SP on 1-4, and most marksmen already have aiming mastery to those lvls for Death Sentence and Foresight.

Now for barbs:
-3 weapon disciplines to 15 (resistences lvl 4)
-Tactics to 15 (caution lvl 4)
-Warcries maxed (Frenzy lvl 5)

I really wish people would stop using such ignorant arguements.

EDIT: Barbs also need Unstoppable Madness. That's another 4 points, another reason to max warcries.

If you would look at what Cumeri was responding to, you'll find it was a counter argument. One to a post implying that the marksman's defense is almost without cost.

Please find the point in my post in which I said marksman had it 'harder' then the other classes. I really wish people would max their reading comprehension discipline.

[ncvr]

Harder than other classes? Marksmen get all their defense in one discipline which is a sacrifice, and one discipline which isn't.

Barbs get it in 5 disciplines, 3 of which are sacrifices.

Warlocks get it in 3 maxed disciplines, the last 191 discipline points of all which are a sacrifice. Actually they get it in 4 disciplines since some people are always talking about Protection Dome despite knowing nothing about it. That last discipline which you must spend at least 203 points on is a sacrifice.

For an alternative reply, read here:

I don't know where you posted this... But you asked if other offensive classes put as many points in defence as Marks... THEY CAN'T. That's the stupidest question I read for some time! Gratz

[Envy]

My point being, I have not once said getting marksman defense was harder than other classes, I was asking you to quote me where I had since you seem to be under that impression.

Edit: I would much prefer our main defensive skills to be split up in our disciplines so I could use skill builds that doesn't use the same ones over and over (tedium). Soon as I reskill, the first thing that goes up is evasion, because as it is now, it's foolish not to be used IMO. I max the discipline just so that the durations and cooldowns are in sync.

[ncvr]

My point being, I have not once said getting marksman defense was harder than other classes, I was asking you to quote me where I had since you seem to be under that impression.

Edit: I would much prefer our main defensive skills to be split up in our disciplines so I could use skill builds that doesn't use the same ones over and over (tedium). Soon as I reskill, the first thing that goes up is evasion, because as it is now, it's foolish not to be used IMO. I max the discipline just so that the durations and cooldowns are in sync.
Ahh, sorry, I was not reading properly.

Anyway I too think that some of the evasive spells should be spread over other disciplines, Acrobatic in Longbows or Spell Elude in Tricks for example.

[fluffy_muffin]

Ahh, sorry, I was not reading properly.

Anyway I too think that some of the evasive spells should be spread over other disciplines, Acrobatic in Longbows or Spell Elude in Tricks for example.
<sarcasm>
Vampirism in mana, Shield bash in blunt, bestial wrath in evasion.
</sarcasm>
Disciplines should be placed with some logic. Why Acrobatic should be in any bow discipline? And why spell elude is a trick?

[Envy]

<sarcasm>
Vampirism in mana, Shield bash in blunt, bestial wrath in evasion.
</sarcasm>
Disciplines should be placed with some logic. Why Acrobatic should be in any bow discipline? And why spell elude is a trick?

Yup.

They would probably have to remove the skill, implement it again in the other discipline with a different name and description but leaving the effect.

[Arkenion]

<sarcasm>
Vampirism in mana, Shield bash in blunt, bestial wrath in evasion.
</sarcasm>
Disciplines should be placed with some logic. Why Acrobatic should be in any bow discipline? And why spell elude is a trick?
Lol today Feanor and I were hunting, he was on his marksman.. We wondered why Track realm enemy isn't in evasion, so marksman could have it too :]]

[fluffy_muffin]

Lol today Feanor and I were hunting, he was on his marksman.. We wondered why Track realm enemy isn't in evasion, so marksman could have it too :]]
DF log: You casted Bestial wrath (5) -> Arkenion
Ark: Yeah babe! Give me more! ;p

[Znurre]

About the mana.
With my barb I use Frenzy (5), Caution (4) and Unstoppable Madness (5).
If I cast all these + Onslaught then I have 0 mana left.

Ofcourse I don't do this, but also consider that I am using other buffs like Challenging Roar (1) and Thirst for blood (4), that is 290 mana.

The marksman is not the only class with mana problems.
Ofcourse I am less dependant on mana for my regular attacks, because I can do damage even without mana but can't use ANY crowd control spells at all.

[Arkenion]

I can do damage even without mana
Hell yes you can xD

Like Bulgaro, he breaks my level 5 energy barrier with normal hits ^^ I want to see criticals +_+

[e30G]

From a Conjurer's point of view, all classes need mana pretty badly. Barbs are one of the classes that take the most mana to support and Knights come in a close second. Marksmen are the next hardest while Hunters need the least from my experience. I ommited Warlocks because they usually regenerate their own mana, and its rare for them to ask for it.

When it comes to defense, I think a good measure to see which classes I find need healing the most often. Here they are in order:

1. Warlocks: One of the hardest for me to support. They die really quick, and sometimes my heals can't keep up specially if their own heal spells fail.

2. Barbs: These fellows come second to Warlocks in terms of losing hp. The fact that they have to be up close to the enemy doesn't help either.

3. Knights: Same as Barbs but their added defense means I have to heal them less so they are lower in this list.

4. Hunters: They have good defensive spells but they usually find themselves in the range of other classes so they tend to receive quite a few hits. They don't hit that hard either, so enemies usually have time to get to them.

5. Marksman: By far the easiest to support and heal. They have range and they usually kill most enemies before they get close enough to hurt them. If other classes do get in range, they have excellent defense and enough power to finish them quickly.

These are all based on what I see on the battlefield. I don't fight classes head to head so I can't say if they are overpowered, however I can say that a class can survive better than others because that's what I concentrate on.

[mrclean]

Guys marksman are too too too powerfull... I've died only one time, I can escape when I want, I can do a lot of combos with my spells, dodge is even better than precise blocks, buffs last 2 minutes while on my knight I'm happy if achieve 60 seconds of caution...

I wonder why I still prefer to play my knight =P

[ncvr]

One of marksmen's only disadvantage is speed.

That is the reason we managed to rape you just then near pinos even while you ran, Connacht :p

[_dracus_]

Guys marksman are too too too powerfull... I've died only one time, I can escape when I want, I can do a lot of combos with my spells, dodge is even better than precise blocks, buffs last 2 minutes while on my knight I'm happy if achieve 60 seconds of caution...

I wonder why I still prefer to play my knight =P

Too bad I didn't get the "you have defeated Connacht" message :) (you escaped my last arrow)

[CumeriTarenes]

one last comment from me to this topic, before I leave:

A marks without mana is dead meat. You barely will kill anybody just with normal shoots.

Look at other offensive classes: Barbs have a high base damage, they don't need mana to do damage, they still can kill without mana.

Warlocks are having mana steal spells and amb sacrifire to get mana back...

And to the defensive classes: Hunter have passive speed and can run away from most enemies when on low mana. Also they are having a huge base damage with a pet. They even can hit you with the pet when they are running away...or hiding behind a tree or stone.

Conjus, well...don't talk about support conjus since they are not made to kill, but warjurers have mana getting back abilities too.

Knights, well...knights are having much hp and blocks. But they are quite dead meat without mana too...it just lasts longer until a knight dies.


Also, look again at auras. Archers don't have it at all, nor to they have single ally buffs.
Imagine a barb casts of with their heads (lvl5) on 5 mages, who are all casting a spell on an enemy. The barb will be rewarded as if he did 5k damage, since an ally buff lvl 5 counts as 1k dealt damage. And that even tough off with their heads did not have an impact on the enemie's death because the damage bonus does not effects spells.
The same is with other auras and non damaging area spells.
Another imbalance in rewards is: I can almost kill an enemy so that he will have just 1 hp left, then a barb comes and casts a 2k damage soutcross. The barb will get rp for the 2k damage he did, not for the 1 damage that was necessary to kill the enemy.

My opinion is, balance the rewards of the powers first before you balance the powers. Then you have the indicator rp which shows which class is too powerful and which not.

[magnet]

A Mage is way more dead meat without mana. Energy Borrow has cooldown of 60; you can use one Amb Sac every 25s... When you have not enough HP to do so (needs 300 on level 3 for 600 mana), you can't get mana back any more than a Marks..... and you can't get HP backs without mana... You cannot run because you do not have a cheap spell like Escapist. You cannot even hope to kill your enemy with the staff...

Whereas a Marks will hopefully have defensive buffs still on or mana to cast dodge. Mana regen fast enough to get Escapist... or deal a bit of damage with his bow which in very close fights can be enough (I was killed by a mana-less Marks quite a few times, when I had myself no more mana, with my warlock).

A knight without mana can't get his buffs back on, it's one buff every 30s (140 mana) + one buff every min (140 mana), and shitty damage that requires you to be on melee and allows your enemies just to "run in circle" and be safe.

EVERY CLASS without mana dies. One thing I agree is that Hunters have it better in a "manaless" match because they have the passive speed and ranged attacks..


Finally on your "1 hp left" and SC 2k dmg, no you're wrong. The Barb will get RPs for 1 hp dealt.. And he'd be stupid to use SC then, wouldn't he.
My opinion of balance is you play all classes and you see the one which has all or most of the benefits.

[Valorius]

Seems to me that a marksman with lvl 1 dual shot(125dmg +100%wpn dmg- 50mana), a good shortbow, and recharged arrows ALONE can match or exceed the firepower of a hunter using lvl 4 or 5 dual shot. Even just using lvl 1.

I often keep dual shot at lvl 1 purposely so that when i run low on mana i can just swap to short and start laying out 350dmg attacks (over 600dmg piggybacks) for 50 mana, to stay in a fight.

[BlooD]

I find funny how hunters agree on the excesive defense of the marksman but not on his own one.

What is wrong is all the evades and resists not the +% armor spell.

[urgit]

I find funny how hunters agree on the excesive defense of the marksman but not on his own one.

What is wrong is all the evades and resists not the +% armor spell.

Masksman is an offensive class with more defense than defensive classes. This is the problem.

[CumeriTarenes]

OK, one last statement, since I feel like I have to response.

Well, I did not know that in the "1hp" case you get only rp for 1hp, but I think for XP it is not as far as I know. That's why I assumed it is the same with rp.

And, playing all classes...well....NGD should hire some test players, spend them 6 lvl 50 chars and they should try to fight one week each class and then say what class is better or not. But anyway, when you have balanced rp for powers you have an objective indicator of power. But you are not objective magnet, same as me. You just play a marks to proove how powerful they are. I am an archeaologist, and do you know what we always say? You find, what you want to find, and what you know about. You wanted to find an overpowered marks when you started playing it...and you found it. You were biased from the very beginning. Look at the poll results. In the opinion of most people marks are not overpowered, even tough people may be influenced by all your talking about overpowered marks.


Seems to me that a marksman with lvl 1 dual shot(125dmg +100%wpn dmg- 50mana), a good shortbow, and recharged arrows ALONE can match or exceed the firepower of a hunter using lvl 4 or 5 dual shot. Even just using lvl 1.


no, a hunters dual shoot is the same than a marks dual shoot, since weapon damage is the same. Recharged arrows only counts on basic attacks, not on spells weapon damage included.

[BlooD]

Masksman is an offensive class with more defense than defensive classes. This is the problem.

The defense who archers have is so much even for an admin class.

A lot of hunters talk about marksmans defense and say: They have to remove strategic position!.

The +% armor doestn make that huge difference, the problems are shared with the hunters on the evasion tree and they hace access to the same spells who make them nearly invulnerable if they have luck.

They have to fix things on the evasion tree, who is shared, not in the marksmans defense.


no, a hunters dual shoot is the same than a marks dual shoot, since weapon damage is the same. Recharged arrows only counts on basic attacks, not on spells weapon damage included.


The marksman as the warlocks and the barbs have a better modifier for his main attribute on damage.

With the same dex and bow a marksman will hit always more than a hunter.

[CumeriTarenes]

The marksman as the warlocks and the barbs have a better modifier for his main attribute on damage.

With the same dex and bow a marksman will hit always more than a hunter.

Sure about this? Cannot believe it, since my hunter makes not more damage than my marks at the same level. Also I don't notice a modifier when I am hit by hunters. And, as Valorius said in another thread his attack points in character window are almost the same.

[magnet]

And, playing all classes...well....NGD should hire some test players, spend them 6 lvl 50 chars and they should try to fight one week each class and then say what class is better or not. But anyway, when you have balanced rp for powers you have an objective indicator of power. But you are not objective magnet, same as me. You just play a marks to proove how powerful they are. I am an archeaologist, and do you know what we always say? You find, what you want to find, and what you know about. You wanted to find an overpowered marks when you started playing it...and you found it. You were biased from the very beginning. Look at the poll results. In the opinion of most people marks are not overpowered, even tough people may be influenced by all your talking about overpowered marks.


That's what most of the Balance team players do. They have chars in most or all classes and test them.
Rp will never be a good indicator of power because it would make the RP-award algorithm too computationally intensive and costly and it takes coding time better used balancing the classes.

I don't play Marks "just to prove" how powerful they're are. I played to make a mind and maybe think 'oh, well, as a matter of fact, they aren't". With my hunter I came to the conclusion that they were not overpowered, only the Evasion tree was, but they're too fast by 5% and some stuff like SotW+Camou shouldn't be allowed. I thought Knights were better than they actually are. I must say Marks are just how I expected them -- they are overpowered.

Since we're in a jobs-comparison now: I am a Computer Scientist -- as in mathematician working on theory of computation. My current job (equivalent to the American first PhD year - research masters internship) is proving properties on mathematical models for computer programs semantics using proof-assistants (namely, Coq right now for those in the know). I have a background in logic (trained in a lot of different "schools" of logic) which is intimately linked to computer programs semantics. Just like with my views on Regnum (and others MMO since I started with UO more than ten years ago), my work is based on rational thinking and scientific approach.

I remember in 2000, in Ultima Online, there was an in-game demonstration against the removal of a game feature known as "precasting" which allowed to cast a spell, equip a weapon, then unequip and launch the spell. While it had been said by the previous and original UO Game designer (aka Raph Koster/Designer Dragon, best MMO designer ever) that it was a feature, a recent team change had it that it was now a bug to be removed. At the same time, a carebear, PvP- zone world was introduced. A lot of players, including me, left the game at that point. A few years later, precasting was re-implemented. This to say: it's not because they are game developers that they are right on balance. A lot of them aren't.

I would love to help NGD balance the game using an impartial machine. I could for example design, using a proposed modal logic, a model checkers which automatically defines values for spells/attacks so that no class is overpowered. Balance would be defined as a few logical formulaes such as "For all chars lv 50", "No ranged class should be able to kill a melee character before he reaches him". Parameters would be the complete set of skillsets possible to have for a level 50 of each class, speed players move, etc. Of course such a work would be fastidious considering the spectrum of Regnum, but I'll do it when I design the ultimate MMORPG :nunchaku:. We can also use those model checking techniques to check on economy exploits ("you can't get money by selling what you just bought"). Btw I hate model-checking though ;)

As it is I am convinced Marskmen are overpowered because of the Evasion tree, that fun is not equal among all classes, and I will showcase it with datas I'll collect and publish so that anyone tries to make their own statistics. I'll challenge anyone to find a very bad statistic for Marksmen.

PS: about the results of the poll, they don't mean anything except that I don't agree with most people here... Now look at the very same poll, Spanish side: http://www.regnumonline.com.ar/forum/showthread.php?t=21507

[BlooD]

Sure about this? Cannot believe it, since my hunter makes not more damage than my marks at the same level. Also I don't notice a modifier when I am hit by hunters. And, as Valorius said in another thread his attack points in character window are almost the same.

http://www.regnumonline.com.ar/forum/showpost.php?p=33391&postcount=13

On the bottom you can see the bonus of each subclass.

Let me translate the warlock and marksman part for you:


Warlock and Marksman.
Each point of inteligence (warlock) and point of dexterity (marksman) give them an extra damage modifier. It means , the hunter and the conjurer will improve their damage too but less.

[CumeriTarenes]

ah, thanks blood. I did not know, thought it was just a modyfier for warriors. But why is the modyfier at warriors that big and for archers so low?


and magnet, I understand only half of the things you talked about, but I always thought NGD is using such a tool to balance spells/classes. But...it seems it is 100% balanced in an empiric way...too bad.

[urgit]

The defense who archers have is so much even for an admin class.

A lot of hunters talk about marksmans defense and say: They have to remove strategic position!.

The +% armor doestn make that huge difference, the problems are shared with the hunters on the evasion tree and they hace access to the same spells who make them nearly invulnerable if they have luck.

They have to fix things on the evasion tree, who is shared, not in the marksmans defense.

The +% armor can make important differences, but it depends on the archer armor and on the enemy weapon. For example, the damage of a lion using evasive tactics is reduced about 40%.

I agree net defenses should be fixed, but anyway, I think it is not logical than an offensive class have the same or even more defense than a defensive class.

[magnet]

and magnet, I understand only half of the things you talked about, but I always thought NGD is using such a tool to balance spells/classes. But...it seems it is 100% balanced in an empiric way...too bad.

Regnum is an homebrew game with a 5-years development. You can't expect that much. Of course if it were free software, at this point this game may be way better. I dunno how affairs would be for NGD though :)

[BlooD]

The +% armor can make important differences, but it depends on the archer armor and on the enemy weapon. For example, the damage of a lion using evasive tactics is reduced about 40%.

I agree net defenses should be fixed, but anyway, I think it is not logical than an offensive class have the same or even more defense than a defensive class.

Of course is not logical, but a lot of hunters want the marksman defense nerfed only in strategic position because they dont want their own one nerfed. And that will not solve anything.

Thats why i said it was funny.

[magnet]

Just for you Signatus/yoshi, on "beating pts hunters". I just have beaten Julius on 1vs1 with my lv 45 marks. I can post log if you want, but Julius can confirm.

I was unfortunately healed at the very end of the fight but I had more than 1000 hps while he was almost dead so I had won, it made me mad though because I'd have prefered no interference :(. Btw he didn't try to run.

I got him by surprise, in his back, but only with burst of wind, and he had time to run out the dizziness (no damage done). I buffed after burst of wind, I had NO buff previously. So did Julius.

I didn't even use dodge because I kept it and he cast Confuse 4 on me ;).

Nice fight Julius, it's too bad the game is unbalanced because you should have won this one :p

[Valorius]

Of course is not logical, but a lot of hunters want the marksman defense nerfed only in strategic position because they dont want their own one nerfed. And that will not solve anything.

Thats why i said it was funny.
Oh nonsense. You'd still have defensive tactics just like hunters do.

Just admit your class is overpowered and try and come up with some productive suggestions instead of being all in denial and putting down others suggestions.

Masksman is an offensive class with more defense than defensive classes. This is the problem.
It most certainly is.

The simple elimination of strategic positioning is to me, the obvious solution. Just give them some other OFFENSIVE skill instead. perhaps a marksman version of head of the pack- if not head of the pack outright.

[BlooD]

Oh nonsense. You'd still have defensive tactics just like hunters do.

Just admit your class is overpowered and try and come up with some productive suggestions instead of being all in denial.

Marksman is not my class, i just steal marksmans from my guild sometimes.

This is just what makes me laugh, a hunter saying markmans are overpowered because they have more armor than hunters.

Just admit you dont want your evasion tree nerfed, thats what i want, all archers defenses nerfed not just marksman, if you think only nerfing strategic position you will solve something you are so wrong sweetie.

[Valorius]

Hunters have almost no offense to speak of (maybe the weakest offense of any class in the game) and only 3000hp approx at lvl 50. Take away their evasion, and they would be dogmeat.

I get hit for almost 3000dmg now as it is by barbs, even with Acrobat lvl 5. And for almost 2000dmg even if i have defensive tactics cast as well.

The problem AINT the evasion tree sweetie, it's strategic positioning.

[magnet]

Maybe if you weren't in the middle of enemies you wouldn't get 3000 Hps of damage sent in the face right? Maybe you'd be more careful about your position. Before it became a trend to have evasion 19, Saguenay and others managed without much evasion but that's certainly too hard for you :hat:

Evasion *is* the problem.

[BlooD]

Hunters have almost no offense to speak of (maybe the weakest offense of any class in the game) and only 3000hp approx at lvl 50. Take away their evasion, and they would be dogmeat.


Hunters like you will be dogmean.

I thought we were talking about good hunters.

[Valorius]

Maybe if you weren't in the middle of enemies you wouldn't get 3000 Hps of damage sent in the face right? Maybe you'd be more careful about your position. Before it became a trend to have evasion 19, Saguenay and others managed without much evasion but that's certainly too hard for you :hat:

Evasion *is* the problem.
A marksman can do the same thing, and barely take any dmg at all. I see it EVERY DAY. As for taking 3000dmg from barbs, don't matter if i'm in the rear with the gear or at the tip of the spear.....a 3000hp hit is a 3000hp hit, no matter where it comes. And if NGD really wants Hunters using Shortbows, as it surely seems they do, then it's ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL that hunters be able to close into the range of every ranged attacker in the game and survive to deliver our own attacks.

Evasion is not the problem- strategic positioning is.

PS: Before she left Saguenay told me she thought i was the best hunter in the game (i personally felt the same way about her). What do you think about that?

[magnet]

A marksman can do the same thing, and barely take any dmg at all. I see it EVERY DAY. As for taking 3000dmg from barbs, don't matter if i'm in the rear with the gear or at the tip of the spear.....a 3000hp hit is a 3000hp hit, no matter where it comes. And if NGD really wants Hunters using Shortbows, as it surely seems they do, then it's ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL that hunters be able to close into the range of every ranged attack in the game and survive to deliver our own attacks.


Marksmen who behave like that are the same bullshit.. We're criticizing Evasion. It affects Marks & Hunters. I personally think Marksmen are more overpowered because they have also a lot of awesome damage skills and debuffs and range...

PS: Before she left Saguenay told me she thought i was the best hunter in the game. What do you think about that?

That she was bored with you and wanted to please your ego, she surely thought it wasn't inflated enough :theking:

[Valorius]

LOL, yep, i'm sure that's it.

[Valour]

Not all marksmen use these buffs and quite a few waste use all of their mana quickly...

Alot of time in fort wars marksmen will shout for mana or drop the lines to regain it sometimes.

It's more of a team effort to take down a marksmen like it is for a knight often... Mind squasher is the worst thing to receive for a marks >.<

[ljwolfe]

yep those marksmen are op'd. look at their rps!

SOrry, the data don't necessarily support your conclusions.

So marksmen can escape? Ok, hunters have speed, camo and the same evasion tree. I also don't buy the line that hunters have weak damage. Not some of the hunters I face. Both archers get LB and SB lines....

[sathilda]

This is just what makes me laugh, a hunter saying markmans are overpowered because they have more armor than hunters.


Me too ! People thinking that don't know what they're talkin' about... Okay marks can have a lot of armor points, but that costs them a lot of mana... mana they can't use to attack outside of fort wars !

And all those buffs can be cancelled with mind squasher... /me looks suspiciously a well known dwarven barb ;)

And mages who don't use mana burn/borrow against them have to take their responsabitlies :wink:

(Edit : and remember Infuriate(5) pwnz... learn to play smart warlocks ^^)

[Valorius]

This is just what makes me laugh, a hunter saying markmans are overpowered because they have more armor than hunters.
Yeah, 80% more armor!

And oh, yeah, about double the offensive firepower a hunter has too. And almost 25% more range. And because they share the evasion tree with hunters, they can have darn near as much speed.

Yep...Marksmen aren't overpowered at all. (dripping wet sarcasm)

[Valour]

I have seen many pvps where a hunter has defeated a marksman...

And this marksman was a very effective marksman.

[Valorius]

Marksman was set up wrong. You may note, i specifically said the "defensive marksman" is the overpowered build(wildly overpowered imo).

It's the extra 80% more armor from strategic positioning that makes them bugs bunny ridiculous to fight against.

[Valour]

Nope... ;)

Full defencive.

[Valorius]

Quite simply put, i don't believe you.

Kay?

Lvl 51 orc grunt= 50dmg vs full defensive marksman
lvl 50 hunter arrows= 40dmg vs full defensive marksmen

I think you smoked too much crack, and were merely hallucinating.

Offensive marksmen, on the other hand, are entirely manageable with a pet. Still not easy, it comes down to who resists the most spells usually...but at least they can be beaten.

[ljwolfe]

I tried the full defensive marksman and I hated it. I had to sacrafice way too much utility elsewhere and couldn't do enough damage to finish my targets off. Yes, it may be defensive. However, it isn't that effective.

[Valour]

Hahahha....

Good luck on further pvps with marksmen then xD

[Valorius]

It's not effective?

You need to face Gpomal sometime.

He took out me and a another lvl 50 hunter WITH an Orc Grunt pet yesterday at the same time.(barely, but he did)

And if you think a defensive marksman has no firepower, you should try a defensive hunter. LOL.

My best spell can't even match a marksmans normal attack using rechargeds.