Marksman damage

[linearguild]

I don't get the logic of people complaining "marksmen don't do enough damage" and then dismissing spells that give +20% ranged damage or +15% hit chance and +25% attack speed as useless. Barbs have to buff a LOT to reach their full potential for damage. Why do players seem to expect that marksmen should have always-on high-damage autohits for free?

[Mattdoesrock]

I still cry myself to sleep at night over the combat nerf - yes nerf, and the DS nerf for Marks (/Archers) but I generally agree with you.

With some decent gear marks can still hit pretty nicely, and alot don't take advantage of all the spells at their disposal, like you said.

However, it's true that Barb's do need to buff up alot to reach their full potential, but a Barb's full potential is far more devastating than a Mark's full potential. But this is only true if both sides have "average" gear. A Marks with imba gear is far more improved over a Barb with imba gear; compare a before and after with Enio vs. Bulgaro for example.

[_Enio_]

1. DS is barely a dmg increase 1 vs 1. Also its not a selfbuff. Check threads about DS for why its not much used atm.

2. +hitchance is not a dmg increase in that sense.

3. You forgot to mention Maneuver, Pointshot

4. Hawks gaze is a 25% dps increase for 30s in a 180s CD on 5

Marks isnt in a good shape atm. Range is flawed, Damage is flawed, Mana budget is flawed.

Take a normal equipped marks for balance and then tone down High end equip/mechanics. THats the way to go and then youll really see the flaws.

Regards.

[Vroek]

They took 42 dmg(with 90 dex) away and removed ~1.2 sec invocation from a slow bow.

They add a delay for normal hit when a ranged class move, rather insignificant since spells work the same.

The love NGD show for their ranged classes is a beautiful thing.

[_Enio_]

They took 42 dmg(with 90 dex) away and removed ~1.2 sec invocation from a slow bow.

They add a delay for normal hit when a ranged class move, rather insignificant since spells work the same.

The love NGD show for their ranged classes is a beautiful thing.

Sorry but, LOL.

Play a storebought 1350 mana marksman and compare it to other classes out of the shop. Then come back and say that again..

[Mellion]

I know why I stopped playing marks completely.

[DINK22]

The reason we need to deal high damage is because if not then we are weaker versions of hunters..so why pick a marksman then. we cant really cc better than hunters, we cant camo, or support other players as well. what unique role do marksmen play if it cant be high-damager?
and it costs points and mana to do the damage we do or else we hit with no real threat.

[Minorian]

God, I hate the people that say "you have RA, your damage is kickass, so stop complaining." For their information, a pet is like damage bonus +120%. I know it doesnt have a range, but these days the trolltards are lightning fast and attack while moving. Now add that to camo, and passive speed.

WTF????? i dont see any way that marksmen and hunters are balanced. The only way my marksmen can do damage in battle is spells, and his spells do about as much dmg as my 25 barb >.> yes i know barb has no ranged, but the barb is using nrml hits, the marx is using spells. The only thing marksmen can do right now is tank weak ranged damage. But what use does the tanking ranged damage do when a lock can ivy you and kill you before you know what the fucks goin on.

Marks are terrible right now, they need either alot more mana, or a good dmg increase. Or just give meh steal pet ^^

[DINK22]

and here's the shocker..real good hunter armor (i.e. excellent,or vg piercing) + defense buffs can cause a marks with lvl 4 charge to do only 40-80ish damage per hit to a hunter. so hunters are hitting me sometimes with more damage than i am to them, plus they have a pet that has a potential of doing 300+ damage per hit. Throw in a hunter using sudden strike and continuously running in circles around the marksman while the pet kills him in 5-6 hits. The marksman may be able to get about 4-5 hits out by the time hes dead. But for the sake of balance, marksmen don't need higher damage?

[Topogigio_BR]

The thing is marks has spells damage but they have long cast comparing the actual dynamic of game and that normaly marks dont have CS gems or spells.
Marks most deadly spells are base damage multipliers. You can see DS, Recharged, Lethal strike etc. and basicaly with the 1.08 version this base damage was reduced meaning a great nerf for marks.
You still see some marks doing great damage but this is because they have awsome gear.
Mostly marks do like 300-400 normals and it means it takes 3 to 4 shots just to break energy barrier spell from a support conju.
It also means that to kill a normal lvl50 knight with 4800hp, as some ppl told me, it will take 12 to16 shots.
This combined with the fact that you burn all your mana maybe even before to kill 1 single person is the reason while most marks are bleming.

[King_Of_Angmar]

I'm kind of half and half on this whole topic. I am a VERY noob marks though so I don't quite have the whole situation down maybe.

While I think marks may need a slight damage increase, I don't think that is the main problem. Marks as it is, is actually quite a good support class. They have range to push back attackers, the ability to neutralize a warlocks terror for a while, ambush, distracting shot, winter stroke. Toss that on pretty decent defense with acro, Evasive tactic, SOTW, and strat pos, and it's a pretty decent support class. I'm not saying marks is in good condition, far from it, but it's not quite as bad as some people make it out to be I think. I think the problem, rather, lies in that they have no REAL specified role, and so people aren't sure what they are supposed to play as. Before marks were undoubtedly the damaging archer class, but that is obviously very questionable now. What I think needs to be done for them is to give them a set role that people understand, and a couple powers to fill that role. If they are damagers then ffs give them their damage ability back, if they are support give them some more to work with so I can stop putting points in all these damaging spells -.-

[_dracus_]

I'm still playing my marks (or lena's) and it's damn efficient to keep people at range when you focus a bit.

[ncvr]

Marks damage was nerfed far too much in 1.0 and some following updates. Before that, marks could probably do plenty of damage just with spells, and their dps when supporting by a conju was devastating (which eventually led to marks being referred to as "barbarians with range"). Right now, marks DPS is nothing compared to what it used to be, and their defense is still too high for an offensive class, particularly when you look at NGD's vision for marks.

[mute]

The greatest problem is that you have no mana after you have casted all your buff spells, so many Marks have changed from a spell skilling to an auto-hit skilling. I am using a medium bow and even with an auto-hit skilling I am often out of mana cause every shot consumes much mana if you use recharged arrows on level 5.

[HuntShot]

Didn't really guess that marksmen were that bad?......

Don't got any problem with mine

[Revolverxxx]

i see NGD's point of view for the damage nerf. No class should do that much damage and have a fairly high range too. but the problem is that marksman were nerfed without any compensation in any other fields.

the solutions i see to this (which has been discussed extensively on other threads):

1) Give them back thier original damage. Return DS back to 50% but make it affects effects exclusive to the caster only. Im happy with the expensive skills with long cooldowns, i think this balances the class out nicely

2) Increase thier range. I would expect a huge damage nerf to be compensated with an increase in range. It is after all a marksman's key feature and at the moment its only slightly better than that of a mage and hunter. 30% foresight at lvl5 should be fine

[Jeeposnl]

and here's the shocker..real good hunter armor (i.e. excellent,or vg piercing) + defense buffs can cause a marks with lvl 4 charge to do only 40-80ish damage per hit to a hunter. so hunters are hitting me sometimes with more damage than i am to them, plus they have a pet that has a potential of doing 300+ damage per hit. Throw in a hunter using sudden strike and continuously running in circles around the marksman while the pet kills him in 5-6 hits. The marksman may be able to get about 4-5 hits out by the time hes dead. But for the sake of balance, marksmen don't need higher damage?

Can't read page 2, so don't know if anybody else said something about this but this is my opinion.

Is this going about a unbuffed lvl 20 marksman with an iniation bow? otherwise I don't get your point. I play lvl 50 hunter and I got owned hard by a marks once when I had a wrathed pet on him. He just winter stroked me, killed my pet with rapid shot, and while I was just out of winter stroke he ambushed me and then raped me. So don't think a hunter with a pet always owns a marksman, it's juste how you handle the fight.

[Knekelvoeste]

Yep i also think its the Marksmans tactics to. Like you say you get owned by hunter it happens to everyone once in a while.. As a barb you also have to be lucky to kill the pet without evades and hopefully in 2 hits else your like screwed.. Just find yourself a good way to kill those hunters..

As for the damage..

I still happen to see marksmans dealing 500 damage thats still abnormal imho.
You shouldn't be complaining sorry guys..

[doppelapfel]

Those have a really good equipment. I play on Niflheim, we have maybe 5 Marksmen with a great equipment (dragonamu, magnabow, bossrings...), they own everything with their 800+ crits. All other Marks are somehow useless..

[Silent_Shadow]

IMO the nerfs did make some sense though it sucks for marks. I can remember Arcana Strike having a shorter cd and add that to +50% dmg from DS, it was a nice dmg dealer. Ofc that has changed now.

It is possible for a lvl 46 marks to kill a lvl 50 warlock 1vs1 or a 48 barb 1vs1. But that is with quite a bit of luck of resists/evades, and if they're the ones evading/resisting instead of you, then its a good bet you'll be the one dead lol.

[Topogigio_BR]

The thing is if marks was supposed to be a defensive class they need very lower mana consumption and lower cast and cooldown times, as much as ensnaring, for exemple.

[Mikan]

In my opinion Marksman need:

- Parabolic shot changed to 15% range bonus
- Foresight changed to 30% range bonus
- A passive that gives them 5/10/15/20/25% mana cost reduction on all spells by level
- Optional: A +5 metre distance on all SPELLS beyond the current bow range

This would for example put Arcanna strike at around the same mana cost as similar spells of other classes.

However, the rest of us players still have the face the very real situation that Marksmen still tank too effectively. If you want them to have more range, more damage, or less cooldowns or mana costs, they are going to have to lose some defense.

That's just to be fair to other players.

Kind regards.

[Topogigio_BR]

In my opinion Marksman need:

- Parabolic shot changed to 15% range bonus
- Foresight changed to 30% range bonus
- A passive that gives them 5/10/15/20/25% mana cost reduction on all spells by level
- Optional: A +5 metre distance on all SPELLS beyond the current bow range

This would for example put Arcanna strike at around the same mana cost as similar spells of other classes.

However, the rest of us players still have the face the very real situation that Marksmen still tank too effectively. If you want them to have more range, more damage, or less cooldowns or mana costs, they are going to have to lose some defense.

That's just to be fair to other players.

Kind regards.
I think a more suitable solution is:
- parabolic 25% range
-foresight 20% range
- half the mana cost of recharged
- decrease 15% of all marks ONLY spells.

[Hocus]

Isn't this a balance thread?

Anyway, you guys need to stop taking people with an ultra gear in consideration when talking about balace between subclasses. Consider these people as a problem which need to be solved by NGD.

Backing to topic.
The problem is that all these updates removed the Marksman place in the game. If you're with low life/mana/cursed/knocked..., Conjurers comes to do their job. Warlocks have great war decisive-area spells as well as CC and high damage spells. Knights can tank and use defensive area skills. Barbarians can crush a player in a matter of seconds and have damage and non-damage area skills. Hunters can track enemies, camo, use pets, run as anyone else. And Marksman are needed for...? They aren't needed.

Maybe everyone is now prepared to quote me and say: "Marksman have ranged high damage hits". Well, the range that I can call as range used by my Marksman is from a skill named "Parabolic Shot" which is not a subclass skill. The damage is not high, using a slow range 30 long bow I can do around 320 damage, but look, I'm with a slow weapon using Recharged Arrows level 5.

Now I can ask: What is the point of beeing a Marksman? As I can see, a Hunter can do what Marksman can do. Maybe a petless Hunter is far more useful at wars than Marksman.

So, IMO, Marksman need a revamp to take his place back in the game.

Cya.

[Nils_Dacke]

I still happen to see marksmans dealing 500 damage thats still abnormal imho.

Generalisation from the exceptional fallacy...

For benchmarking, you have to omit dmg buffs like off with their heads and bless weapon etc which any class can be buffed with.

If we are talking about ranged dps, we also have to omit effects from dirty fighting and all target debuffs with a range cap. (death sentence, sudden strike etc etc) You also have to consider the fact that stock range 30 longbows are only available for levels up to mid 40's. At max range, the dps from normals is sub par for a level 50 marksman. If it is necessary to have a magnanite bow to play marksman, they should be mass produced and sold by regular woodworkers. Otherwise one have to play marksman up to level 46 or so, then take a long vacation (a couple of years) picking magnanites before levelling further.

And I for one don't count recharged arrow as 'normal' hits, due to the mana cost. That mana can be used for dealing damage with other skills instead.

[ncvr]

It is possible for a lvl 46 marks to kill a lvl 50 warlock 1vs1 or a 48 barb 1vs1. But that is with quite a bit of luck of resists/evades, and if they're the ones evading/resisting instead of you, then its a good bet you'll be the one dead lol.
Today it is possible for a lvl 42 of any class to kill a lvl 50 of any other class except a hunter or warlock.

But back on topic, marksmen are a very gear dependent class. A marks with average gear is significantly weaker DPS-wise than other offensive classes (used to be the other way around...), but still they have more reliable defense than knights. Of course tactics come into it, but those tactics are reliable for 1vs1 only. Tactics that rely on a setup with 15 tricks and lvl 5 winter stroke and such, so you'll be sacrificing your fort war ability (again, unless you have good gear and can afford to get warlock-like damage with just your evendim bow...but otherwise, no).

[Revolverxxx]

I still happen to see marksmans dealing 500 damage thats still abnormal imho.
You shouldn't be complaining sorry guys..

lets take Minamoto for an example. With his awesomely pimped out bow and dragon amulet he manages to hit an average of 400-450 normals. this is an extreme case of uber-gear. an average lvl50 marksman hits around 300-350 (with recharged arrows[5]) without without buffs from other classes. its still nothing compared to a hunter+pet combo. i personally dont have a problem with a marksmans damage, it just needs to be compensated in another area such as his range

In my opinion Marksman need:

- Parabolic shot changed to 15% range bonus
- Foresight changed to 30% range bonus
- A passive that gives them 5/10/15/20/25% mana cost reduction on all spells by level
- Optional: A +5 metre distance on all SPELLS beyond the current bow range

This would for example put Arcanna strike at around the same mana cost as similar spells of other classes.

However, the rest of us players still have the face the very real situation that Marksmen still tank too effectively. If you want them to have more range, more damage, or less cooldowns or mana costs, they are going to have to lose some defense.

That's just to be fair to other players.

Kind regards.

+1 for this. as long as marksman arent overpowered once again. i see increasing range in comparrison with the other range classes to be the best solution


And Marksman are needed for...? They aren't needed.


...exactly

more range will result in better support from them in many aspects of the game.
with more range they can support the front line warriors
soften up charging barbs and knights
defend the walls and forts
hold enemy forces back
effectively countering warlocks all powerful sultars (with a warlock needing to run closer to cast it on a group he would rely on protection from other marksman and knights auras making them useful again too)
catch running hunters
it will also prevent enemies luring guards away from forts and walls

[Anpu]

In my opinion Marksman need:

- Parabolic shot changed to 15% range bonus
- Foresight changed to 30% range bonus

Passive spells usually give minor bonuses as they don't require mana. I think it won't be fair to have "free" passive spell for range providing better bonuses than spell that actually cost mana and is time limited.

[CumeriTarenes]

My marksman is doing about 320 damage with recharged arrows 5, slow 30 bow (7 damage more than best storebought slow 30 bow), 2 rings of the blacksmith and amulett of might. Also I have +8 dex from items bonus and +7 dex from passive (92 dex total).


In the past I already asked the question what the purpose of marksmen is: http://www.regnumonline.com.ar/forum/showthread.php?t=22225&highlight=purpose+marksmen

This thread is exactly 2 years old, and still marksmen do not have a specific role in the game. Marksmen can be easily replaced by other classes. This is even more true since DS nerf.

Once there was a suggestion about marksmen having a aura that increases range or hit chance of near allies. Maybe now it is time to think about this again...I don't know

[Revolverxxx]

My marksman is doing about 320 damage with recharged arrows 5, slow 30 bow (7 damage more than best storebought slow 30 bow), 2 rings of the blacksmith and amulett of might. Also I have +8 dex from items bonus and +7 dex from passive (92 dex total).


In the past I already asked the question what the purpose of marksmen is: http://www.regnumonline.com.ar/forum/showthread.php?t=22225&highlight=purpose+marksmen

This thread is exactly 2 years old, and still marksmen do not have a specific role in the game. Marksmen can be easily replaced by other classes. This is even more true since DS nerf.

Once there was a suggestion about marksmen having a aura that increases range or hit chance of near allies. Maybe now it is time to think about this again...I don't know

Marksman do have a purpose but due to thier lack of range (in comparrison to the other classes) they just not good at it

i mentioned some roles (in my previous post) a marksman could play if he had a greater advantage in range. its true that the only RvR skill a marksman has in his arsenal is Death Sentence and we all know how popular that skill has become...*cough* sarcasm.


Marksmen should provide long ranged damage dealing offering coverage and long range defense. They should not be killing machines from long distance.

...

- Marksmen will never be defensive they just cannot be a so powerful to make melee classes almost unplayable.


just to clarify, im perfectly happy with a marksmans current damaging abilities, it just doesnt make sense to take away a marksmans damage but leave its range the same...

[Mattdoesrock]

Marksmen should provide long ranged damage dealing

They should not be killing machines from long distance.

I never understood that...

[Mikan]

lets take Minamoto for an example. With his awesomely pimped out bow and dragon amulet he manages to hit an average of 400-450 normals. this is an extreme case of uber-gear. an average lvl50 marksman hits around 300-350 (with recharged arrows[5]) without without buffs from other classes. its still nothing compared to a hunter+pet combo. i personally dont have a problem with a marksmans damage, it just needs to be compensated in another area such as his range
This is honestly not an extreme case. He must've made some errors in his decisions when building his character because this is standard run of the mill damage from any level 50 Marksman on RA who has a half-decent Slow/30 bow.

The rare uber-geared Marx on RA can do 700-800 on the right targets, without DS. Fluffy Muffin, one of our old Hunters with Very good to Piercing armor (Beast Master), took a normal hit for 800 the other day. Keep in mind that is on a very piercing-resistant class...

One of my clanmembers also does similar damage to what you list, at LV41 with only Stone Token and DS rings.

I think perhaps some Horus players have some issues with understanding the damage system, how damage types work and the minimal damage buffer and how to use it to bypass armor and protections to some extent.

(Each individual damage type can't be reduced below 10% of the combined damage amount.)

Kind regards.

[_Enio_]

I think perhaps some Horus players have some issues with understanding the damage system, how damage types work and the minimal damage buffer and how to use it to bypass armor and protections to some extent.


Caaaareful.. u wanna tell me on RA theres less players who dont know about that? :P

[Revolverxxx]

I think perhaps some Horus players have some issues with understanding the damage system, how damage types work and the minimal damage buffer and how to use it to bypass armor and protections to some extent.

(Each individual damage type can't be reduced below 10% of the combined damage amount.)


this intrigues me *off to do research*

but im still standing true to my numbers, i havent seen a marksman hit higher than 450-480 normals (and these are the extreme cases). but then again i am a hunter with very good piercing armour (+30% armour rating). maybe i should spend more time in RA and try to learn thier secrets

[Topogigio_BR]

This is honestly not an extreme case. He must've made some errors in his decisions when building his character because this is standard run of the mill damage from any level 50 Marksman on RA who has a half-decent Slow/30 bow.

Kind regards.

You are comparing 2 distinct worlds, in my opnion. RA has more users=more drops = more epic drops= better gear.
Horus has few users= compare that a zerg in horus has 15-25 ppl= less drops = few epics= worst gear.
To find an item for marks above 40 is not so easy in Horus, syrtis situation maybe diferent, but look all those great geared marks in this topic seens to be syrtis, but i bet this is the situation of the 2 other realms in horus, as i think is not even in other servers than RA.

[_Enio_]

The rare uber-geared Marx on RA can do 700-800 on the right targets, without DS. Fluffy Muffin, one of our old Hunters with Very good to Piercing armor (Beast Master), took a normal hit for 800 the other day. Keep in mind that is on a very piercing-resistant class...


This is not possible as noncrit without DS/DF/External buffs.

You are comparing 2 distinct worlds, in my opnion. RA has more users=more drops = more epic drops= better gear.
Horus has few users= compare that a zerg in horus has 15-25 ppl= less drops = few epics= worst gear.
To find an item for marks above 40 is not so easy in Horus, syrtis situation maybe diferent, but look all those great geared marks in this topic seens to be syrtis, but i bet this is the situation of the 2 other realms in horus, as i think is not even in other servers than RA.

Actually on RA its way harder to get nice gear. Bossdrops are very rare and its very competitive trade there sice its just a way bigger playerbase. My RA marks with a pretty nice slow 25 does i think 320-360(edit: around 380) with Recharged 5 & specialist 4 on unbuffed targets iirc.

[Revolverxxx]

This is not possible as noncrit without DS/DF/External buffs.
.

agreed. if a marksman could hit 700-800 normals i dont think thread would exist. i dont think ive seen a crit that high either (not taking buffs into consideration.

i hit a 900 crit on a boss with my hunter once but i was extremely buffed at the time and Eve was extremely debuffed. when comparing normals its best not to compare it with extreme circumstances

[UmarilsStillHere]

Best non-spell hit Ive taken from a Marks I can remember is Vs Faith (with Frenzy 5 on, forget if Caution 3 had ran out or not) I took a 710 from 'The End' the other day, most likely he was under Onsl.

[fritsz]

This is honestly not an extreme case. He must've made some errors in his decisions when building his character because this is standard run of the mill damage from any level 50 Marksman on RA who has a half-decent Slow/30 bow.

The rare uber-geared Marx on RA can do 700-800 on the right targets, without DS. Fluffy Muffin, one of our old Hunters with Very good to Piercing armor (Beast Master), took a normal hit for 800 the other day. Keep in mind that is on a very piercing-resistant class...

One of my clanmembers also does similar damage to what you list, at LV41 with only Stone Token and DS rings.

I think perhaps some Horus players have some issues with understanding the damage system, how damage types work and the minimal damage buffer and how to use it to bypass armor and protections to some extent.

(Each individual damage type can't be reduced below 10% of the combined damage amount.)

Kind regards.

Maybe you can help us understand and tell us how a marks setup is normal in RA?

[UmarilsStillHere]

Maybe you can help us understand and tell us how a marks setup is normal in RA?

I would think to get that sort of damage they need outside buffs, onsl, owth, bless wep etc ...

[fritsz]

I would think to get that sort of damage they need outside buffs, onsl, owth, bless wep etc ...

Could be, but he thinks we don't understand how to play a marksman. So i wonder how we should play it then, i'm intrested:)

[Nils_Dacke]

It seems the consecutive nerfs of the marksman subclass since this game was early beta, has consisted of lowering damage while keeping mana cost the same. This is what has led up to a situation where mana deficiency is the single most inhibiting factor for a marksman.

Compare for instance the marksman skill lightning strike -- which used to deal up to 1000 dmg on a good day -- with the corresponding warlock skill summon lightning. A measly summon lightning(2) deals more damage than a lightning strike(5) and costs less mana. A summon lightning(5) is 1600-2400 dmg for 600 mana, a lightning strike(5) is now 550-650 dmg for 500 mana, dealt by a class that has nothing resembling ambitious sacrifice or sadistic servants -- 500 mana is a fortune for a non-mage.

Or compare fire ball with ignus scorch. Even a fire ball(4) exceeds ignus scorch(5) when it comes do dmg and mana cost, but fire ball is range 25 compared to the awkward-to-use close quarter range of ignus scorch. Mana is cheap for mages, but expensive to all other classes, marksmen in particular.

I don't remember if ignus scorch was nerfed too; it wouldn't surprise me if it was. There was however never anything wrong with lightning strike as it was before. (Why should damage-dealing be reserved for warlocks and barbarians only?) But after a bit of whining from people (who play other classes) the dmg from it was about halved, while the mana cost reminded the same. Same thing happened to death sentence.

The real war in Regnum Online is not the skirmishes between realms in-game, but the war between subclasses going on in the forum. ('class struggle'? :D) There are people who have enough manipulation skills to gain influence on the developers by campaigning here, and apparently it works. We have to be aware of that. The developers ought to be aware of that too, but I honestly doubt they are.

[UmarilsStillHere]

Ignus was nerfed, Im not sure if damage/mana/cast time was changed but IIRC it used to have only 8 seconds cooldown.

[veluchami]

It seems the consecutive nerfs of the marksman subclass since this game was early beta, has consisted of lowering damage while keeping mana cost the same. This is what has led up to a situation where mana deficiency is the single most inhibiting factor for a marksman.

Compare for instance the marksman skill lightning strike -- which used to deal up to 1000 dmg on a good day -- with the corresponding warlock skill summon lightning. A measly summon lightning(2) deals more damage than a lightning strike(5) and costs less mana. A summon lightning(5) is 1600-2400 dmg for 600 mana, a lightning strike(5) is now 550-650 dmg for 500 mana, dealt by a class that has nothing resembling ambitious sacrifice or sadistic servants -- 500 mana is a fortune for a non-mage.

Or compare fire ball with ignus scorch. Even a fire ball(4) exceeds ignus scorch(5) when it comes do dmg and mana cost, but fire ball is range 25 compared to the awkward-to-use close quarter range of ignus scorch. Mana is cheap for mages, but expensive to all other classes, marksmen in particular.

I don't remember if ignus scorch was nerfed too; it wouldn't surprise me if it was. There was however never anything wrong with lightning strike as it was before. (Why should damage-dealing be reserved for warlocks and barbarians only?) But after a bit of whining from people (who play other classes) the dmg from it was about halved, while the mana cost reminded the same. Same thing happened to death sentence.

The real war in Regnum Online is not the skirmishes between realms in-game, but the war between subclasses going on in the forum. ('class struggle'? :D) There are people who have enough manipulation skills to gain influence on the developers by campaigning here, and apparently it works. We have to be aware of that. The developers ought to be aware of that too, but I honestly doubt they are.

+1 on all points. And yes mana is the biggest problem with marks.
Marks was the only char which was nerfed with a vengeance. I think they nerfed like 6 skills in just one update, all essential ones. And they reduced our damage + defence(which was supposed to affect hunters, but never did).
Ignus scorch was awesome, till they nerfed, added a cast time and increased CD sealing its usefulness in war. Although it was a spell that not many marksmen used, kudos for NGD going the extra mile to make a spell useless.

What made the mana problem even worse was the mana comm nerf, after which the conjus stopped using it.

IMO, NGD should play their own game first. If they find a spell thats not used by anyone, then it should be improved. If every spell is equally desirable to have, we would have a rich and diverse setup pool and the game would suddenly become so much more fun to play. But right now we have only like 3 or 4 setups that everyone uses. Take like 3 months off development, just stop doing everything and start playing all different classes. Or atleast every developer should play atleast an hour of RO daily. Then we would start seeing meaningful changes I think.

[Mattdoesrock]

Compare for instance the marksman skill lightning strike -- which used to deal up to 1000 dmg on a good day -- with the corresponding warlock skill summon lightning. A measly summon lightning(2) deals more damage than a lightning strike(5) and costs less mana. A summon lightning(5) is 1600-2400 dmg for 600 mana,

Summon Lightning (5) does around 18 damage / tick to my non mage classes. On mages it does around 80 damage / tick.

That's alot less than 1600 - 2400 to the majority of people. Plus it's incredibly easy to Dispell.

Also, the old Ignus Scorch was pretty powerful. 500 damage every 8 seconds was pretty nice for fort wars.

[Gawyn_Trakkand]

Ok today (17/04/10) i killed 2 archers at efe beach both near enough full health it makes no difference one hunter one marks. Hunter was lvl 48 marks lvl 46+. I killed the hunter with minimal effort prebuffed wrath before camo came out with a 600 ensnare and then ambush hunter was dead before they got back up, my pet was killed by the marks in this time.

So me a petless lvl 50 hunter in a pet setup almost empty on mana after casting Sotw 5 and buffing Acrobatic 5 and evasive 4 so it went down to norms for me.

This marks buffed the same Acro and evasive and strat pos (i dont know the exact levels) with this combination i should be hitting lower than the marks, Marks was armed with a med 30 dragon wings bow me a med 25 long bow with the +dmg a marks has the marks should do alot more dmg than i could.

I hit higher than the marks on average 50 or 60 dmg +. My point of this story is that a petless, pet skilled hunter killed a buffed full health Marksman (granted approx 4 lvls lower) with just normal hits thanks to the pitifully low dmg they do without good gear.

P.S. the way to go with this is not to nerf others but to improove marksman.

[_Enio_]

Ignus was nerfed, Im not sure if damage/mana/cast time was changed but IIRC it used to have only 8 seconds cooldown.

IIRC:
Cooldown raised from 10s(?) to 20s.
Casttime raised from Instant to 0.5 to 1 second.

[Nils_Dacke]

Summon Lightning (5) does around 18 damage / tick to my non mage classes. On mages it does around 80 damage / tick.

And lightning strike(5), the way you count, deals about 100-300 per enemy on a good day.

The proper way is to compare raw dmg, not taking into account resist and armor. Both attacks are lightning dmg and are resisted and soaked by auras and armour in exactly the same way.

Summon lightning(5) deals 80-120/s (raw dmg) for 20s. 80*20=1600, 120*20=2400, i.e. around 3-4 times the dmg from lightning strike(5) (550-650). Lightning strike was nerfed with the argument that it dealt waaay too much dmg. It dealt less than half to summon lightning already.

[Zordak]

The proper way is to compare raw dmg, not taking into account resist and armor. Both attacks are lightning dmg and are resisted and soaked by auras and armour in exactly the same way.


The proper way is to do exactly the opposite. Damage reduction works on every tick of a DoT spell while only once on an instant spell. Comparing the on-paper-damage does not reflect the spells effects at all.

Unfortunately it will also lead to a lot of "no the numbers are rather like this than like that" posts in every discussion.

Z.

edit: removed some words that somehow slipped into the quote Oo

[Revolverxxx]

i use lighting strike on lvl1 at the moment simply for the -25% speed reduction. i dont understand this skill. the way i see it, its damage should be on par with a warlocks sultar. at lvl5 its damage is really low and with the high mana cost and cast time i dont see any point in investing anymore. being the penultimate skill of a full on damage dealing tree, its a bit dissapointing

**Delayed Edit: if that is the case, why not just take away the damage and increase the amount of movement reduction per level. would be way more useful that it is now. ie -60% movement speed area is alot more helpful than an area that does 100 damage

im not sure what it was before it was nerfed but i wouldnt mind if a +100% damage was added to it

[mute]

What made the mana problem even worse was the mana comm nerf, after which the conjus stopped using it.



+1

You are right. I am quickly out of mana when I enter a battle.

[-Drv-]

This is honestly not an extreme case. He must've made some errors in his decisions when building his character because this is standard run of the mill damage from any level 50 Marksman on RA who has a half-decent Slow/30 bow.No. Normal of 400-450 at range 30 with medium speed are an extreme case and on ra only few lucky possessors of dragon amulet or similar drops can do it.

The rare uber-geared Marx on RA can do 700-800 on the right targets, without DS.
if with uber geared marks you mean a marksman with dragon amulet an magnanite long bow the normal hit you should expect from him is around 500-550 on unarmored characters.

Fluffy Muffin, one of our old Hunters with Very good to Piercing armor (Beast Master), took a normal hit for 800 the other day. Keep in mind that is on a very piercing-resistant class...
the marks that hitted for 800 Fluffy had dragon amulet + daen rha ring + daen rha bow + onslaught (don't remember if other buffs like owth were on him)

[CumeriTarenes]

i use lighting strike on lvl1 at the moment simply for the -25% speed reduction. i dont understand this skill. the way i see it, its damage should be on par with a warlocks sultar. at lvl5 its damage is really low and with the high mana cost and cast time i dont see any point in investing anymore. being the penultimate skill of a full on damage dealing tree, its a bit dissapointing


Lightning arrow (not lightning strike!) had 30 seconds slow down effect on lvl 1. Because you did not have to invest power points into it it was changed to a lower duration at higher levels. Problem with lightning arrow in comparisan with sultars terror is secondary target reduction. You don't have it with sultars, but you have it realy much with lightning arrow. Also the damage is just lightning damage.

[Topogigio_BR]

I see most ppl in regnum agree that marks are hitting to low, but what could be made to solve this problems.
Incresing base damage will only make hunters even more powerful. Just increasing powers that multiply base damage (RA) will make marks with ubergears GOD LIKE.
The only solution that i see is to reduce mana cost and CD.

[Topogigio_BR]

Its realy hard to a Mark compete with hunters doing 600-800 ensnaring from 39 range with 180 mana cost and 8s cooldown.

[Revolverxxx]

Its realy hard to a Mark compete with hunters doing 600-800 ensnaring from 39 range with 180 mana cost and 8s cooldown.

you forgot to mention the troll hitting 400s at the same time...

a fairy average hunter can out-dps the best marksman easily. strategic position and very clever tactics might be the deciding factor in a 1on1 fight... even tho marksman are meant to be the offensive archer subclass.
anyway thats just the way the way the cookie crumbles, no point trying to fight it, guess ill start playing on my hunter again. hopefully some sort of advantage is given to marksmen in the future

[Minorian]

Marks are no longer the offensive class, hunters can beat the crap out of people, the only thing marx can do is tank a little bit or ranged damage, but a lock can still end his life in a few spells. An extreme case of tanking I saw today at sam fort, forget the name right now, from Syrtis though, cast a lvl 5 meteor, 136 dmg. I think the name was Tarek marks or something? I have no clue how he tanked so well, but can he share it? :beerchug: But yes, ngd has definetly made marks into a defense class, not even a support class, with no ally buffs. Either marks need to be made their former offensive self, or actually become the support class, better cc, better range, and ally buffs.

[Hamster_of_sorrow]

Marks are no longer the offensive class, hunters can beat the crap out of people, the only thing marx can do is tank a little bit or ranged damage, but a lock can still end his life in a few spells. An extreme case of tanking I saw today at sam fort, forget the name right now, from Syrtis though, cast a lvl 5 meteor, 136 dmg. I think the name was Tarek marks or something? I have no clue how he tanked so well, but can he share it? :beerchug: But yes, ngd has definetly made marks into a defense class, not even a support class, with no ally buffs. Either marks need to be made their former offensive self, or actually become the support class, better cc, better range, and ally buffs.

he probably used acrobatic5 and strategic positioning5

acro decreases damage by 20% IIRC

and strategic reduces ranged dmg by 30% IIRC

(both at lvl 5)

[Nikor]

An extreme case of tanking I saw today at sam fort, forget the name right now, from Syrtis though, cast a lvl 5 meteor, 136 dmg. I think the name was Tarek marks or something? I have no clue how he tanked so well, but can he share it?
In fort wars, or any other group fight situations for that matter, you should keep in mind that there are other factors that might lower the damage taken by a character. Heroic presence can reduce damage a lot and mana pylon can make it go right to 0.

I see most ppl in regnum agree that marks are hitting to low, but what could be made to solve this problems.
Incresing base damage will only make hunters even more powerful.
Increasing base damage for marksmen will not increase base damage for hunters, they are depending on subclass. In numbers in the wiki entry (http://regnum.wikia.com/wiki/Attack_damage#Attack_damage) are outdated, but it explains the basic concept.

One other thing I didn't see mentioned: marksmen have a damage bonus (recharged arrows), but so do hunters (head of the pack). They are quite different, recharged works on a percentage while head of the pack is a fixed amount. So when the damage was lowered in the combat system change, hunters didn't get hurt as bad as marksmen.

Now, before you go screaming "but head of the pack only works with allies around!", well, I don't know about Horus, but on Ra packs of 3+ hunters, often with chars of other other classes, seem to become the norm. And if balance is really supposed to be based on RvR, it's safe enough to assume there are others around, so this is something that should be looked into.

[_Enio_]

he probably used acrobatic5 and strategic positioning5

acro decreases damage by 20% IIRC

and strategic reduces ranged dmg by 30% IIRC

(both at lvl 5)

Acrobatics = 10 15 20 25 30% damage resist
Stratpos = 15 20 25 30 35% ranged dmg resist.

[Hamster_of_sorrow]

Acrobatics = 10 15 20 25 30% damage resist
Stratpos = 15 20 25 30 35% ranged dmg resist.

thanks for clearing that up.

[Nils_Dacke]

Damage reduction works on every tick of a DoT spell while only once on an instant spell.

So what...

[e30G]

So what...

If I remember correctly, armor gives out a fixed damage reduction instead of percentages. Therefore in theory, smaller damage and DOTs are affected more by armor than single higher damage spells.

[ncvr]

If I remember correctly, armor gives out a fixed damage reduction instead of percentages. Therefore in theory, smaller damage and DOTs are affected more by armor than single higher damage spells.
Indeed.

KarlXII, If you argue by comparing lightning arrow to summon lightning, it would be like arguing that serpent bite does 1.5k dmg and therefore does dmg on par to SC - and, as a marksman, I'm sure you know that's not the case.

[Vroek]

One other thing I didn't see mentioned: marksmen have a damage bonus (recharged arrows), but so do hunters (head of the pack). They are quite different, recharged works on a percentage while head of the pack is a fixed amount. So when the damage was lowered in the combat system change, hunters didn't get hurt as bad as marksmen.


I dont agree with this.
Recharged arrows do not effect the dexterity contribution, only weapon, items and bonuses. So even if it is a percentage, it is percentage of a fixed amount.

The dexterity bonus was a fixed change both for defensive and offensive classes, meaning marksmen went from 2,5 to 1,9/dex with a slow bow, hunter went from 1,875 to 1,2 with a slow bow.

90 dex means
Marks 175 to 133 damage, DPS wise: 56.5 to 66.5 (increased with the ~1.1s attack speed improvement)
Hunter 131 to 84 damage, DPS wise: 42 to 42 (no change with the ~1.1s attack speed improvement)

Head of the pack did of course get much better with attack speed change, but so did recharged arrow despite the quicker mana drain.

[_Enio_]

I dont agree with this.
Recharged arrows do not effect the dexterity contribution, only weapon, items and bonuses. So even if it is a percentage, it is percentage of a fixed amount.

The dexterity bonus was a fixed change both for defensive and offensive classes, meaning marksmen went from 2,5 to 1,9/dex with a slow bow, hunter went from 1,875 to 1,2 with a slow bow.

90 dex means
Marks 175 to 133 damage, DPS wise: 56.5 to 66.5 (increased with the ~1.1s attack speed improvement)
Hunter 131 to 84 damage, DPS wise: 42 to 42 (no change with the ~1.1s attack speed improvement)

Head of the pack did of course get much better with attack speed change, but so did recharged arrow despite the quicker mana drain.

Hotp gains way more from the attackspeed change then recharged arrows, since it is still a fixed amount of damage added while recharged arrows bonus damage got smaller due to scaling with the base damage (affected by the dex change).

Note that armor mitigates a fixed amount of damage. A normal hit decrease of 24% doesnt mean that your effective damage on an armored target is only 24% lower. It can easily be -50% (depending on the target's armor and your gear) resulting into a dps loss with the attackspeed increase.

This mechanics further increased the gap between low and high equipment Marksmen since only the bad equipped Marks lose by the change.

So NGD do something about it to make the game more fun for the majority of Marksmen. The CD changes of Arcana + Ethereal also hit low normal dmg marks the most.
Eg. change the damage scaling aspect to more fixed amounts to work against damage stacking. Or give more focus to non-boostable attacks (spells).

[Vroek]

Hotp gains way more from the attackspeed change then recharged arrows, since it is still a fixed amount of damage added while recharged arrows bonus damage got smaller due to scaling with the base damage (affected by the dex change).

It didnt, dex based damage was not increased by RA before or after this change.


Note that armor mitigates a fixed amount of damage. A normal hit decrease of 24% doesnt mean that your effective damage on an armored target is only 24% lower. It can easily be -50% (depending on the target's armor and your gear) resulting into a dps loss with the attackspeed increase.

Yes

With 90 dex a marksman hit was reduced with 42 dmg, with or without RA.
Armour values and the effect of resist is the same as before this change.

This is how i think it works for example with acrobatics
Before:
(392 * 0,7) - armour 150 = 124 dmg / 3.1 = 40 DPS
Now:
(350 * 0,7) - armour 150 = 95 dmg / 2 = 47.5 DPS

Thats just 29 dmg less in this example and a higher DPS.

[-Drv-]

The dexterity bonus was a fixed change both for defensive and offensive classes, meaning marksmen went from 2,5 to 1,9/dex with a slow bow, hunter went from 1,875 to 1,2 with a slow bow.

90 dex means
Marks 175 to 133 damage, DPS wise: 56.5 to 66.5 (increased with the ~1.1s attack speed improvement)
Hunter 131 to 84 damage, DPS wise: 42 to 42 (no change with the ~1.1s attack speed improvement)

No.
the damage due to dex doesn't count the first 20 points
and every point of dex give 1 damage with fast bow, 1.25 with medium and 1.5 with a slow one.

so, if you have 90 dex the damage due to dex will be:
for marksman:
fast bow: (90-20)*1 = 70
medium bow: (90-20)*1.25 = 87.5
slow bow: (90-20)*1.5 = 105

for hunter: same as marksman reduced of 25%
fast bow: (90-20)*0.75 = 52.5
medium bow: (90-20)*0.9375 = 65.625
slow bow: (90-20)*1.125 = 78.75
before the damage nerf was:
marks
fast: 1.5 ---> (90-20)*1.5= 105
medium: 2.0 ---> (90-20)*2.0= 140
slow: 2.5 ---> (90-20)*2.5= 175

hunter
fast: 1.125 ---> (90-20)*1.125= 78.75
medium: 1.5 ---> (90-20)*1.5= 105
slow: 1.875 ---> (90-20)*1.875= 131.25so, comparing a marks and an hunter with the same dex (90), the gap between their damages damage was decreased
from 26.25 to 17.5 when they use a fast bow,
from 35 to 21.875 with a medium bow,
and from 43.75 to 26.25 with a slow bow.

riassuming:
an average marks (without recharged arrows)
will do 17.5 damages more than an hunter (without head of the pack) with a fast bow,
21.875 with a medium bow
and 26.25 with a slow bow.

[Vroek]

No.
the damage due to dex doesn't count the first 20 points
and every point of dex give 1 damage with fast bow, 1.25 with medium and 1.5 with a slow one.

so, if you have 90 dex the damage due to dex will be:

before the damage nerf was:
so, comparing a marks and an hunter with the same dex (90), the gap between their damages damage was decreased
[I]from 26.25 to 17.5 when they use a fast bow,
from 35 to 21.875 with a medium bow,
and from 43.75 to 26.25 with a slow bow.

I tested this on all offensive characters, dex/str/int all gave.
Very slow 2.3
Slow 1.9
Medium 1.5
Fast 1.1
I also tested it on my hunter it was,
Slow 1.2
Medium 1.0
Fast 0.8

To make the testing time effective it was done on Amun, i dread that i was unlucky and did while NGD made some test on it.

Otherwise i totally agree with old values, and the 90-20 dex formula. :)

It seem to be the case, on horus i get 1.5 with a slow bow.
What a waste of time. :/

[_Enio_]

It didnt, dex based damage was not increased by RA before or after this change.


Uff right i totally forgot about this. Youd need 187.5 Bow + Jewelry dmg to get the same bonus you can get with hotp5..

That could be a good starting point to lessen the impact of good bows/jewelry. decrease the damage bonus of RA but make it being affected by dex..

[-Drv-]

I tested this on all offensive characters, dex/str/int all gave.
Very slow 2.3
Slow 1.9
Medium 1.5
Fast 1.1
I also tested it on my hunter it was,
Slow 1.2
Medium 1.0
Fast 0.8

To make the testing time effective it was done on Amun, i dread that i was unlucky and did while NGD made some test on it.

Otherwise i totally agree with old values, and the 90-20 dex formula. :)

It seem to be the case, on horus i get 1.5 with a slow bow.
What a waste of time. :/
the test you did were good but you haven't noticed that there were 2 damage nerfes (maybe you did the tests before the second nerf): the first was general (for all the classes) the second was only for archers and mages

[UmarilsStillHere]

mages

Unless you mean the changes to SM I have no idea what you are on about, when the normal hits and % based spells of archers and warriors were hit hard, mage spells with fixed damage remained the same*

*iirc

[Mattdoesrock]

I think he meant the damage Int gave to normal hits.

[Minorian]

I'm confused, I see no comparison whatsoever between HotP and RA. RA eats your mana for breakfast, and HotP is a passive. Not to mention that RA is a %, so a marx with cheap gear will do crap dmg and a marx with uber gear will be insane.

I think the heart of the marks problem is this....

Every other class gets their subclass bonus for free. After you become a knight you get your shield, barbs get 2h weaps, hunters get pets, conju get heals, sorcery warju, locks get crazy ass spells.

Now consider this, to get their subclass bonus marks need to spend 20 mana per arrow, and still do pretty bad damage. This makes marks extremely low on mana, reducing all effectiveness. I think just making RA passive would solve every problem marksmen have, they wouldn't be out of mana 24/7, and they could once again do their job.

NOTE: you do have to pay in mana for mage subclass bonuses, but I didn't count it as they get mana and health for basically free.

[Silent_Shadow]

Now consider this, to get their subclass bonus marks need to spend 20 mana per arrow, and still do pretty bad damage. This makes marks extremely low on mana, reducing all effectiveness. I think just making RA passive would solve every problem marksmen have, they wouldn't be out of mana 24/7, and they could once again do their job.

+1.
I would be a lot more happy with my marks if RA was a passive. However, I have to point out that Foresight is a passive power only for marks. So isn't that their subclass bonus?

[Minorian]

5-15%? its bullshit. 1.5-4.5, really, its nothing.

[Mbwana]

5-15%? its bullshit. 1.5-4.5, really, its nothing.

I would disagree here, but its been a long time since I played marks (he's on vacation somewhere....) and I'm also sleepy so I can't put in a good argument :p

[Revolverxxx]

+1.
I would be a lot more happy with my marks if RA was a passive. However, I have to point out that Foresight is a passive power only for marks. So isn't that their subclass bonus?

its true, a marksmans primary attribute is his range and not his damage. NGD doesnt want marksman to be long ranged killing machines as they have stated.

ive stressed this over and over, the best way to improve marksman and keep the balance is to double the effects of foresight and remove the range limits of the CC spells in the tricks tree.

at the moment most marksmans play the role of snipers even tho they not as good at it as they used to be. Look up Enio's support builds. thats the way marksman are meant to be played (in NGD's eyes). Not as fun might i add but way more effecient than spamming 3 damaging skills then hiding behind a tree and waiting for your mana to come back. its sad that an offensive class has to resort to this.

[Silent_Shadow]

its true, a marksmans primary attribute is his range and not his damage. NGD doesnt want marksman to be long ranged killing machines as they have stated.

Yes. I remember when we were human cannons xD so much fun. Anyways, so I can agree to giving Foresight more range. If that happened, I'd be fine with RA not as a passive though that would be nice.